If Major Evasion is Hurting Wardens and Templars, why are they playing played more this patch?

SkysOutThizeOut

People are complaining about major evasion. Primarily identifying wardens and templars being significantly hindered by all those medium armor wearing shuffle users... if that’s the case why have I seen an increase in templars and wardens recently?... Why is everyone complaining about how strong AOEs are in BGs (lots of magden AOEs)? Just put on major evasion, right? And why is heavy armor still so popular? Or am I receiving misinformation from the players I talk to?
-my friend generally achieves an 18k tool tip on his deep fissure on warden.... tell me how a spammable aoe with major breach for 18k damage is going to be broken after 25% mitigation on some players in medium armor who have less resistances anyway. Meanwhile the highest I ever got leap on mag dk was 23k tooltip... an ultimate not spammable.
-You don’t hear dot dks and mag dks yelling for cleanse to be nerfed, even though it completely mitigates that playstyle. Every class has to be inherently weak somewhere, by no means does
Major evasion even weaken warden or Templar, if it did they’d be non-existent in pvp right now
-StamSorcs have nothing really going for them class wise and are primarily restricted to weapon skills, but let’s change major evasion because JABS are weaker sometimes, even though it’s not dodgeable and can pull from stealth.

Is the problem major evasion and not jabs? and not those who are making a lot of noise because they enjoy playing an a class that is currently stronger than the rest? it’s major evasion? But major evasion can’t save you in bgs from those AOEs?...

The problem is all the players crutching on inherently stronger classes that don’t want to change and adapt because they don’t know how until someone explains how for them or ZOS caves to their demands.

The increase in players using warden and Templar is because everyone is a glutton for punishment? No. It’s because they’re in a good spot. This has been the most balanced the game has been all year, but that’s just my perception.

Vapirko

Edit: I stand corrected, I see it’s being disscussed by class reps/ZOS. That’s dumb. Major evasion is not too strong. It was a good change for medium armor. If they gut shuffle, which already is *** for snare immunity... well it’s gonna suck for medium.

I assume you’re railing off the other thread, but what I said at least, was that while major evasion mitigating AOE damage over all is a good change, it does have some specific side effects like widening the 1v1 gap between stamplars and stamblades. And if anything I’ve seen less stamplars around. Can’t remember the last time I even had any stamplar skills in my death recap. More magplars possibly, lots of wardens as always. I don’t think anyone is arguing that fissure/sub assault needs a buff. I don’t even think jabs needs a buff, actually it would be good if they could simply get it to a state of reliability. That skill whiffs more than any other skill in the game. Anyway as you say the game is pretty balanced right now, I wouldn’t say you can crutch off of stamina Templar, unlike switching to stamina warden and simply slotting sub assault, spin to win and permafrost and go to town in BGs. That combo might be more brainless than snipe, and I’d say at least you have to go into melee range, but the major protection works wonders. Can’t speak for the magicka variations as I haven’t played magplar in a long time and never played magdeden. I haven’t seen too many threads on shuffle and jabs/sub assault though, just the one other. Are there a lot more? A bit of discussion never hurts.

SkysOutThizeOut

@Vapirko railing off the class rep ZOS discussion. Whoever said warden with Templar was suffering seemed to be attempting to lump “classed” together to substantiate an “issue.” So, I’ll do the same. Because if you tell a lie enough people will believe it. Just like these people are with major evasion because... jabs... I think shuffle got a nerf still compared to the dodge chance, cus I can now kill people quick or kill people I couldn’t before because it would dodge and execute 4 times in a row.
Oh and everyone is still using spin so... evasion isn’t that strong. Otherwise you’d see rev slice and executioner.

IAVITNI

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@Vapirko railing off the class rep ZOS discussion. Whoever said warden with Templar was suffering seemed to be attempting to lump “classed” together to substantiate an “issue.” So, I’ll do the same. Because if you tell a lie enough people will believe it. Just like these people are with major evasion because... jabs... I think shuffle got a nerf still compared to the dodge chance, cus I can now kill people quick or kill people I couldn’t before because it would dodge and execute 4 times in a row.
Oh and everyone is still using spin so... evasion isn’t that strong. Otherwise you’d see rev slice and executioner.

Ever consider Major Evasion in a 1v1 scenario? Turns medium into heavy against a stamplar and mitigates a lot of a stamdens burst, which is how the class secures kills. They don't have a lot of pressure in a duel outside general dueling cheese.

And it hurts magplars too. Magplar damage output open world is already pretty low considering they have no proactive defences and therefore have to build into mitigation much more than other classes.

I think the term suffering was used solely as a word to describe the state, but not the magnitude of Major Evasion in relation to templar and wardens.

Ultimately, the classes are suffering from the changes. The magnitude of which does not change that.

Perhaps it would have been better to describe Major Evasion as "overly punishing" in regards to jabs and shulks. Those skills were hardly over-performing. Stamdens are only so strong because of their ability to spec 100% into damage and still have incredible sustain and insane mitigation + utility from skills.

As a primarily solo player, Major Evasion can be very strong. In fact, on my medium stamblade I can face tank a lot of stamplars and magplars, which defeats the purpose of the evasive and roll dodge oriented defensive mechanics of medium.

Vapirko

IAVITNI wrote: »

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@Vapirko railing off the class rep ZOS discussion. Whoever said warden with Templar was suffering seemed to be attempting to lump “classed” together to substantiate an “issue.” So, I’ll do the same. Because if you tell a lie enough people will believe it. Just like these people are with major evasion because... jabs... I think shuffle got a nerf still compared to the dodge chance, cus I can now kill people quick or kill people I couldn’t before because it would dodge and execute 4 times in a row.
Oh and everyone is still using spin so... evasion isn’t that strong. Otherwise you’d see rev slice and executioner.

Ever consider Major Evasion in a 1v1 scenario? Turns medium into heavy against a stamplar and mitigates a lot of a stamdens burst, which is how the class secures kills. They don't have a lot of pressure in a duel outside general dueling cheese.

And it hurts magplars too. Magplar damage output open world is already pretty low considering they have no proactive defences and therefore have to build into mitigation much more than other classes.

I think the term suffering was used solely as a word to describe the state, but not the magnitude of Major Evasion in relation to templar and wardens.

Ultimately, the classes are suffering from the changes. The magnitude of which does not change that.

Perhaps it would have been better to describe Major Evasion as "overly punishing" in regards to jabs and shulks. Those skills were hardly over-performing. Stamdens are only so strong because of their ability to spec 100% into damage and still have incredible sustain and insane mitigation + utility from skills.

As a primarily solo player, Major Evasion can be very strong. In fact, on my medium stamblade I can face tank a lot of stamplars and magplars, which defeats the purpose of the evasive and roll dodge oriented defensive mechanics of medium.

But it’s easy to face tank a lot of players regardless. Within the context of your expierience it’s hard to say what that means objectively and what weight that should have on major evasion balance. I’ve been maining a stamplar and I like where major evasion is at, except when it comes to 1v1ing Stamblades but that’s always been an issue because the stamblade kit is so strong for single target damage. In the AOE meta major evasion is what promotes real medium armor viability. Now, I’d happily look at lessening major evasion a little, if the snare immunity went up to say .8 seconds per medium piece. But it’s not ZOS style to delicately balance skills and they really resist buffing stuff, so I’m pretty worried about where shuffle is going to end up. If it’s flat out nerfed it’s back to heavy for me.

idk

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

People are complaining about major evasion. Primarily identifying wardens and templars being significantly hindered by all those medium armor wearing shuffle users... if that’s the case why have I seen an increase in templars and wardens recently?...

These starting comments make no sense.

Wondering why we do not see more Templar and Wardens when you clearly state they are most hindered by this skill?

It would seem the statement answers itself.

1. Deep Fissure does not come with Major Breach. It helps to keep things clear instead of muddying the discussion by bringing in a different skill.
2. Your buddy is not getting an 18k tooltip for DF when in PvP.
3. Even at half, that 9k takes 3 seconds time to occur. It is not an instant skill. So we are talking 3k/s if you can keep the target in the path.

I am not arguing whether or not Major Evasion is to strong or not. I just think the argument presented is skewed a bit.

Zos has mentioned they are looking at the new buffs. It makes sense the stronger buff would deal with a shorter up time as they have mentioned as a possible change. It would make sense for PvP. However it would hurt PvE.

SkysOutThizeOut

@idk “if that’s the case (templars and wardens being so hindered that it’s unbearable), why HAVE I SEEN AN INCREASE....?”

fred4

idk wrote: »

1. Deep Fissure does not come with Major Breach. It helps to keep things clear instead of muddying the discussion by bringing in a different skill.

Yes, it does. You're not up to date.

2. Your buddy is not getting an 18k tooltip for DF when in PvP.

Sure they are:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=104211

That build is viable in CP. It has 12.7K shields. Sustain is a bit low, but this is close to the actual build I run. Yes, that tooltip is fully buffed, which is what people usually quote when they talk about PvP. If you want to get technical, you could push it even higher, as I'm using two mag regen enchants and am missing Minor Berserk. That said, I don't agree magden is OP. My magden is kind of where it always was, strong, but has trouble finishing people.

technohic

I see where we are going with this but lm not sure I've seen more Wardens in PVP when comparing the steady increase over time. Resistance to their attacks or not; they provide a lot of group buffs and AOE debuffs.

Templar. Mostly magplar. When this last update went live; there was an influx as there were some other buffs. Speed meta tone down might be the biggest unsung hero there. Yes; templars could make use of it to compensate the shortcomings; but it was across the board

As far as the shuffle debate. Really; I'd not like a longer immunity to roots and snares. I'd rather they just get shorter duration to 3 seconds tops, and major of 30% minor 15% should be enough to slow down slightly; not barely be less than a root.

Vapirko

technohic wrote: »

I see where we are going with this but lm not sure I've seen more Wardens in PVP when comparing the steady increase over time. Resistance to their attacks or not; they provide a lot of group buffs and AOE debuffs.

Templar. Mostly magplar. When this last update went live; there was an influx as there were some other buffs. Speed meta tone down might be the biggest unsung hero there. Yes; templars could make use of it to compensate the shortcomings; but it was across the board

As far as the shuffle debate. Really; I'd not like a longer immunity to roots and snares. I'd rather they just get shorter duration to 3 seconds tops, and major of 30% minor 15% should be enough to slow down slightly; not barely be less than a root.

I agree with all this but for solo medium armor we really need the snare immunity.

technohic

Vapirko wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I see where we are going with this but lm not sure I've seen more Wardens in PVP when comparing the steady increase over time. Resistance to their attacks or not; they provide a lot of group buffs and AOE debuffs.

Templar. Mostly magplar. When this last update went live; there was an influx as there were some other buffs. Speed meta tone down might be the biggest unsung hero there. Yes; templars could make use of it to compensate the shortcomings; but it was across the board

As far as the shuffle debate. Really; I'd not like a longer immunity to roots and snares. I'd rather they just get shorter duration to 3 seconds tops, and major of 30% minor 15% should be enough to slow down slightly; not barely be less than a root.

I agree with all this but for solo medium armor we really need the snare immunity.

I'd keep it as is. Wouldn't want too much selfishly as a stamplar as it hurts that reliability of connecting with jabs.

Vapirko

technohic wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I see where we are going with this but lm not sure I've seen more Wardens in PVP when comparing the steady increase over time. Resistance to their attacks or not; they provide a lot of group buffs and AOE debuffs.

Templar. Mostly magplar. When this last update went live; there was an influx as there were some other buffs. Speed meta tone down might be the biggest unsung hero there. Yes; templars could make use of it to compensate the shortcomings; but it was across the board

As far as the shuffle debate. Really; I'd not like a longer immunity to roots and snares. I'd rather they just get shorter duration to 3 seconds tops, and major of 30% minor 15% should be enough to slow down slightly; not barely be less than a root.

I agree with all this but for solo medium armor we really need the snare immunity.

I'd keep it as is. Wouldn't want too much selfishly as a stamplar as it hurts that reliability of connecting with jabs.

But the chasers. Getting snared every 2.5 seconds (which is more like 1 with lag) is just too much. And those mofos will chase you a loooong way, and all the advantages rest with them. Another couple of seconds of snare immunity won’t hurt you as a stamplar. Most people overuse jabs anyway and it’s a resource burn. Either go DW and set up your dots and finish with jabs, or run a more complicated Sb/2h setup, go reverb and then swap jabs and then reverse slice. Unless you’re fighting a group of idiots, jabs is too expensive to keep spamming. I know it whiffs, I play with 270-300 ping, but you just gotta start practicing using it sparingly. It’s tempting to just keep hammering away with it but it’s not necessary or a smart move in terms of resources.

fred4

Yeah, ditching Forward Momentum for Shuffle has IMO never been viable. Considering Shuffle's cost, I think increasing the snare immunity makes sense. I am also a solo player much of the time.

I don't think even Forward Momentum is a good escape tool on it's own, though. If Race Against Time had a brief snare immunity attached, then it would probably be very strong. I don't play stamplar. It's escape options must be limited. I can only think of Mist Form or maybe Race Against Time + Prisoner's on the off bar, which would sustain it. Retreating Maneuver tends to consume too much stamina and the immunity can flake out, although I've never seriously tried it on foot. If you're in IC or a BG, a nifty way of escape is to run up into a building, jump down, then port back up, with Undo, at which point you could pop an Invisibility potion for good measure.

I once ran into a high-burst stamplar who appeared to use Meditate for sustain. Whatever his build was, he was quite unkillable in a duel while meditating, and he did a ton of damage. Still, his sustain seemed to suck, and my magden forced him into defense for prolonged periods of time, so I wouldn't fancy that approach. I don't think it would work in a 1vX.

Maryal

I don't understand why people complain that major evasion is 'too strong'. It's effective against AOEs, but entirely useless against direct damage attacks and DOTs.

Juhasow

When it comes to class reps meeting notes about PvP they shouldnt be treated too seriously.

Ragnarock41

That worries me aswell. As if wardens and templars are weak or something, they are planning to nerf the very last thing making medium armor stand against all the aoe burst flying around.

I'm not taking the notes very seriously but at the same time, you never know whats in the mind of the one who must not be named.


Edit: I realize this is probably said for templar jabs/sweeps, I would be fine for them to buff this ability , however facing a proper magplar as a Dk is already a nightmare scenario due to total dark and the fact that it takes almost 3 seconds to break free from, I think they need to fix the interaction between total dark and Dk spikes before anything else. (or you know, make it possible to break free without spending eternity)

fred4

Maryal wrote: »

I don't understand why people complain that major evasion is 'too strong'. It's effective against AOEs, but entirely useless against direct damage attacks and DOTs.

This is specifically about templar Jabs / Sweeps, which is both an AOE attack and the single-target spammable of that class. For the purposes of destro staff it seems to be classed as an AOE, since the lightning staff buffs even it's single-target component and fire staff will not buff it. I don't actually know whether Major Evasion protects from single-target jabs damage though.

The single-target damage from Jabs, Sweeps and Scorch is very high, at least judging by the tooltips. I think this is generally justified due to these attacks being either a clunky channel, taking longer than a GCD too, or a telegraphed delayed skill. Attacks can feel very different in practice compared to their on paper tooltips. The best example, at the other end of the spectrum, is Ransack. Despite a puny 6K tooltip on my DK, playing 1H+S is much stronger than it appears, due to the integrated Major Fracture, bash damage and cost reduction, and the availability of Reverb Bash in the same skill line.

I have played a lot of magplar recently and am certainly happy with how it performs. I do mostly solo / small scale open world CP. To me this thread is more of a theoretical concern, but perhaps I must pay more attention to Shuffle / Mirage vs non-Shuffle users, or do some testing in a duel.

What I'm trying to say is that I have no obvious issues with Shuffle / Jabs / Scorch balance, despite how things look on paper.

fred4

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I'm not taking the notes very seriously but at the same time, you never know whats in the mind of the one who must not be named.

W ... Wr .... W .... .... dammit.

Haashhtaag

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

That worries me aswell. As if wardens and templars are weak or something, they are planning to nerf the very last thing making medium armor stand against all the aoe burst flying around.

I'm not taking the notes very seriously but at the same time, you never know whats in the mind of the one who must not be named.


Edit: I realize this is probably said for templar jabs/sweeps, I would be fine for them to buff this ability , however facing a proper magplar as a Dk is already a nightmare scenario due to total dark and the fact that it takes almost 3 seconds to break free from, I think they need to fix the interaction between total dark and Dk spikes before anything else. (or you know, make it possible to break free without spending eternity)

Jabs hit hard already imo

Sweeps need a buff but there is so much in a magplars tool kit that a buff to sweeps would borderline make them OP.

fred4

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Sweeps need a buff but there is so much in a magplars tool kit that a buff to sweeps would borderline make them OP.

I recommend lightning staff plus Ele Drain. Light attacks hit harder and more reliably than DW, also inbetween J-Beam, making up for the loss of an enchant, and you have Ele Drain covered on the same bar, leaving you free to choose your back bar weapon.

Haashhtaag

fred4 wrote: »

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Sweeps need a buff but there is so much in a magplars tool kit that a buff to sweeps would borderline make them OP.

I recommend lightning staff plus Ele Drain. Light attacks hit harder and more reliably than DW, also inbetween J-Beam, making up for the loss of an enchant, and you have Ele Drain covered on the same bar, leaving you free to choose your back bar weapon.

Trust me I know that’s the go to these days that’s why I said the latter part of that.

fred4

Haashhtaag wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Sweeps need a buff but there is so much in a magplars tool kit that a buff to sweeps would borderline make them OP.

I recommend lightning staff plus Ele Drain. Light attacks hit harder and more reliably than DW, also inbetween J-Beam, making up for the loss of an enchant, and you have Ele Drain covered on the same bar, leaving you free to choose your back bar weapon.

Trust me I know that’s the go to these days that’s why I said the latter part of that.

Cool . I only said it, because Ele Drain isn't technically in the class toolkit.

Ragnarock41

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

That worries me aswell. As if wardens and templars are weak or something, they are planning to nerf the very last thing making medium armor stand against all the aoe burst flying around.

I'm not taking the notes very seriously but at the same time, you never know whats in the mind of the one who must not be named.


Edit: I realize this is probably said for templar jabs/sweeps, I would be fine for them to buff this ability , however facing a proper magplar as a Dk is already a nightmare scenario due to total dark and the fact that it takes almost 3 seconds to break free from, I think they need to fix the interaction between total dark and Dk spikes before anything else. (or you know, make it possible to break free without spending eternity)

Jabs hit hard already imo

Sweeps need a buff but there is so much in a magplars tool kit that a buff to sweeps would borderline make them OP.

That was my point. I don't wanna make it sound like I hate templars. I don't. But templars can make a Dk die so fast its not even funny, and the counterplay against total dark is basically non existant. That combined with a strong sweep is a perfect recipe for another class balance disaster.

SkysOutThizeOut

@Ragnarock41 @Haashhtaag @fred4 that’s the issue though if you go read the notes they specifically list and why might be done. Kinda like our dk reps didn’t fight to keep the free lash... and let them take the stun.

SkysOutThizeOut

Fun fact one dk rep didn’t know how to effectively use the whip stun or know how to not stun before fossilie... his words not mine. Messed up his rotation lol...

Haashhtaag

Total dark is OP af

Haashhtaag

fred4 wrote: »

Haashhtaag wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Sweeps need a buff but there is so much in a magplars tool kit that a buff to sweeps would borderline make them OP.

I recommend lightning staff plus Ele Drain. Light attacks hit harder and more reliably than DW, also inbetween J-Beam, making up for the loss of an enchant, and you have Ele Drain covered on the same bar, leaving you free to choose your back bar weapon.

Trust me I know that’s the go to these days that’s why I said the latter part of that.

Cool . I only said it, because Ele Drain isn't technically in the class toolkit.

Funny thing is I watch console streamers occasionally and when they’re on magplars they’re still using DW in 2018 lol

SkysOutThizeOut

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/449801/no-one-should-have-this-much-power#latest

fred4

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Total dark is OP af

I don't know about that. If it is, then because people have issues breaking free (see also: Fear) or they get visual bugs where they don't see it, or they only hear it before they see it. Total Dark is, of course, not an actual CC. People retain their agency. I think that heavily counts against it. It's more of a PITA to fight against, compared to the threat from a real CC in a burst combo. I'm using it as part of my healing strategy, but I've certainly thought I should try Shock Reach / Clench instead, as I see some YouTubers using that.

Ragnarock41

fred4 wrote: »

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Total dark is OP af

I don't know about that. If it is, then because people have issues breaking free (see also: Fear) or they get visual bugs where they don't see it, or they only hear it before they see it. Total Dark is, of course, not an actual CC. People retain their agency. I think that heavily counts against it. It's more of a PITA to fight against, compared to the threat from a real CC in a burst combo. I'm using it as part of my healing strategy, but I've certainly thought I should try Shock Reach / Clench instead, as I see some YouTubers using that.

Its OP against Dks. The damage return from dk spikes procs the ability, and same with wings. So getting this spammed on you puts you in a spot where you get punished for doing nothing wrong. You did no mistakes, yet you still lose, 10/10 gameplay balance right there. Punishes you for literally being a Dk.

fred4

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Total dark is OP af

I don't know about that. If it is, then because people have issues breaking free (see also: Fear) or they get visual bugs where they don't see it, or they only hear it before they see it. Total Dark is, of course, not an actual CC. People retain their agency. I think that heavily counts against it. It's more of a PITA to fight against, compared to the threat from a real CC in a burst combo. I'm using it as part of my healing strategy, but I've certainly thought I should try Shock Reach / Clench instead, as I see some YouTubers using that.

Its OP against Dks.

I don't know what to say. If you are a stam DK, hit my magplar with Reverb Bash and I really feel it, even at the 4 second duration. I have a DK duelling partner who does that. Now, we can quickly derail this thread with a discussion on Extended Ritual. For what it's worth, I think playing a blocking magplar who uses Ritual and Honor the Dead has some huge disadvantages, namely the tendency to get forced into defense, run out of resources, and die. Ritual is far too passive a skill in solo play. It helps in some duels, but I don't run it. I just pay careful attention to healing over time and tankiness, and I like my magplar better for it. But, even if I were to run Ritual, your Defile will be as much of a PITA to me as my Total Dark is to you. You have to break free, I have to purge.

Now, if you are a mag DK, and you know your stuff, you'll lock me into Talons and Fossilize like clockwork. The last duel I had with one who did that ended in a draw. I will not roll out of that every time. I don't have the stamina for it and, even though you're supposed to be able to turn in a root now, my reliability of hitting you feels pretty iffy when you have me locked down.

I am NOT saying it's L2P. For all I know you are playing at a higher level than me and my duelling partners. I only duel with friends and people from my guild, using open world builds. Sometimes, in open world, I get that mark of respect where only one player of the opposing group will duel me, because they recognise me as a strong enough player. I'm not top shelf, though, and these are only my experiences for what they're worth.