"It's just cosmetics" argument on gambling boxes / cash shop.

LordSkyKnight

Really. Just stop it with the "it's only cosmetics you don't have to buy it" argument stance. Nobody plays MMO games and want their characters to look like hobo bums. Every single player want's to customize their character with cool looking gear. That's why cosmetics are such a weakness for people and why the companies exploit that desire with the gambling boxes. It would really help if the whales and friends weren't mentally conditioned to accept such horrendously predatory behavior from gaming companies.

Hippie4927

*sighs*

yodased

but it's only cosmetics, you don't have to buy it.

MilwaukeeScott

LordSkyKnight wrote: »

Every single player want's to customize their character with cool looking gear. .

Not Me!

I even randomize at character creation. I could not care less what my character looks like

Ertosi

Really. Just stop with incorrectly framing this issue as "Gambling" when its not. "Gambling" implies the chance to win real money. As no money can be won, crates fall under the broader category of "games of chance".

Callous2208

As a guy who's been here since day one, I don't even give a crap about the gamble boxes anymore. My issue is that the crown store/crates are the only thing to look forward to every month. They've literally stopped working on decent content. There hasn't been anything worth the time/money as far as gameplay since Orsinium.

Riverlynn

These people are only jumping on the gambling thing to help justify their outrage at not being able to afford the shiny, shiny pixels they want.

People using a very real, serious problem that destroys lives to validate their rage is the real problem here, not loot boxes.

Delsanab14_ESO

Given that the entire focus of Zenimax future and seasonal content is to get players to buy crates, become accustomed to getting very poor daily rewards if they log in every day but eventually MAYBE get something good if they log in enough (or at least useful, which is a way to justify the minor pots and things no one wants) and expand the crown store itself with limited run content, there is simply no argument that it's a matter of you can just ignore it.

The free crates are nice when they did them, who knows if they'll do any more as they did none for Xanmeer, but the simple reality is that a handful of crates that may or may not have something good for free is just like how drug dealers gave a free sample and then get you hooked.

To then ignore the actual psychological and theory based factors of it, it's a problem.

Is the idea of a crown crate in itself a problem? No of course not, randomized rewards aren't, but the way they've done it, the ridiculously low percentages, and the reduced likelihood the more you buy rather than the greater, that's a serious problem that shows an inherent greed. As is the hyper-focus on it.

The irony, the absolute hilarity too, is that by bringing back the Striped-Senche for like 4000 crowns or 600 crown gems, by bringing back the Storm Atronarch crates and such, and by adding everything including Apex Radiant in the crown gems or for crowns only, they'd sell so many of those and it'd be less an issue of randomness and more just an issue of okay everything is being sold for some pretty expensive prices. They want money but they're not doing everything they could to get it, so perhaps there's a benefit or non benefit to that right now, but it'll get worse over time.

In an mmo with so little content for the years it's been out, it is not surprising that this is the real end-game, cosmetics, furniture, housing, motifs, etc. And that by placing high crown prices or hiding many of these in randomized crown crates, especially good mounts (only 3 basic mounts can be bought for gold no more, no pets, etc) and pets an costumes, etc... it's pretty much making it seem like to truly manage stuff you need to spend crowns, whether it's the 2000 crown Alinor fountain in the furniture crown only store, or the glowing mounts and skins, etc.

There's just no real reward to conquering content other than at most a skin in MOST cases.

What is intolerable and unacceptable though is that people will insult, marginalize, or actively lie and distort about the situations others are experiencing, especially when it comes down to intentionally pushed addictions and the exploitation of players through reward-driven systems.

Delsanab14_ESO

Ertosi wrote: »

Really. Just stop with incorrectly framing this issue as "Gambling" when its not. "Gambling" implies the chance to win real money. As no money can be won, crates fall under the broader category of "games of chance".

We already addressed this, the countries see it as gambling in their law cases going forward.

Gambling is putting something forward for the chance of gaining more or something else.

Amanuensis

First world problems.

BoraxFlux

Cool looking gear can be crafted too, you're giving us hobo's a bad name Sir!

Tigerseye

I agree.

Although, currently, I'm running around in a garment that looks like pieces of torn leather, or petals, tied together with string, with half of one butt cheek exposed.

So my char looks like a "hobo bum" in more ways than one!

I'm here all week, folks, remember to tip your waitress.

...but, seriously, of course I agree with what you're saying.

Cosmetics are endgame, for many people.

So, while it may be one thing keeping some things somewhat "exclusive" and hard to get, for very new players, it's quite another if you're going to, perpetually, move the goalposts, so that only the most veteran of the vets (or the super-rich) can ever afford anything truly high end.

Ertosi wrote: »

Really. Just stop with incorrectly framing this issue as "Gambling" when its not. "Gambling" implies the chance to win real money. As no money can be won, crates fall under the broader category of "games of chance".

Well, how convenient that they have their own, special, category...

It's still gambling, whether you can win real money, or not.

...and if it's not (technically) gambling, it's something even worse; as even in a casino you can choose to cash your chips in, at any time.

So, I would stick with the word gambling, if I were you.

BossXV

Actually my main toon is Sir Hobo Beggins V

FlyingSwan

LordSkyKnight wrote: »

Nobody plays MMO games and want their characters to look like hobo bums.

Not true. Each character I make in a game, my wife and I use the customiser to make the most deformed and hideous looking monstrosity possible. Groping underbite, close set eyes, pot belly and spindly legs, weak lips. You name it, the more unappealing and socially unacceptable they look, the better. So I certainly don't feel the need to clothe these freaks in rich rags.

Jeremy

LordSkyKnight wrote: »

Really. Just stop it with the "it's only cosmetics you don't have to buy it" argument stance. Nobody plays MMO games and want their characters to look like hobo bums. Every single player want's to customize their character with cool looking gear. That's why cosmetics are such a weakness for people and why the companies exploit that desire with the gambling boxes. It would really help if the whales and friends weren't mentally conditioned to accept such horrendously predatory behavior from gaming companies.

I would agree with you that cool costumes and armor are important to most MMO players. So you can argue that it's exploiting the customers if you like. But since this game doesn't charge a subscription fee i'm not sure how persuasive that argument is going to be. That position would better suit games like Final Fantasy 14 - that charge a subscription fee and charge extra for cosmetics on the side.

But regardless, you can't dispute the fact that selling game play advantages is not on the same level as mere cosmetics. Imagine if they were selling some exclusive and expensive set of armor that made you super powerful in PvP - thus giving rich players a tremendous advantage over others. You can't honestly say that would be the same as selling costumes and mounts that just made your character look cooler or prettier. So I believe others are right to point out that distinction.

Bruccius

LordSkyKnight wrote: »

Really. Just stop it with the "it's only cosmetics you don't have to buy it" argument stance. Nobody plays MMO games and want their characters to look like hobo bums. Every single player want's to customize their character with cool looking gear. That's why cosmetics are such a weakness for people and why the companies exploit that desire with the gambling boxes. It would really help if the whales and friends weren't mentally conditioned to accept such horrendously predatory behavior from gaming companies.

Last time I checked, there were already 10 (or is it more?) racial styles you can use for your armor. You can dye them, too. There are mementos you can unlock, etc. etc. etc.

There are plenty of ways to make your character ''cosmetic'' without paying any additional money for this game.

Ertosi

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

Really. Just stop with incorrectly framing this issue as "Gambling" when its not. "Gambling" implies the chance to win real money. As no money can be won, crates fall under the broader category of "games of chance".

We already addressed this, the countries see it as gambling in their law cases going forward.

Gambling is putting something forward for the chance of gaining more or something else.

Only some places have chosen to move the legal definition for where the line is drawn on gambling, but that doesn't change the true definitions of the words. All gambling falls under games of chance, but not all games of chance are gambling. If no money can be won, it is not gambling.

Gambling commissions everywhere have a long history of trying to get gambling laws to include all games of chance rather than just those that involve the chance to win actual money. A few places have recently decided to go along with this redefinition, as such laws are often spun under the guise of trying to help those with generic addiction problems, but the reality is the laws are only being challenged and changed because they see video game companies making money and they want an unearned slice of the pie by regulating it.

BretonMage

This is a video game. Yes, you don't HAVE to have nice cosmetic things, but they're out there with the specific purpose of making the game more satisfying to play for many. You also don't HAVE to have good damage, good armour, or a good character, but they will also make your game more satisfying to play. Neither is needed, but they're both highly desirable to different people.

Making something desirable, knowing that some people have a weakness for it, and manipulating their store offerings to take advantage of said weakness, falls under the category of predatory behaviour, I think. I agree with the OP.

MilwaukeeScott

Tigerseye wrote: »

so that only the most veteran of the vets (or the super-rich) can ever afford anything truly high end.

Welcome to life, my friend

Juju_beans

LordSkyKnight wrote: »

Really. Just stop it with the "it's only cosmetics you don't have to buy it" argument stance. Nobody plays MMO games and want their characters to look like hobo bums. Every single player want's to customize their character with cool looking gear. That's why cosmetics are such a weakness for people and why the companies exploit that desire with the gambling boxes. It would really help if the whales and friends weren't mentally conditioned to accept such horrendously predatory behavior from gaming companies.

I have plenty of neat looking costumes that I can dye different colors and I got them all for FREE just playing the game.
Being a gaming whale is a personal weakness. And if you blow hundreds of dollars in microtransactions then you "might" have a problem. But it is YOUR problem, not the game publisher's problem.

Delsanab14_ESO

Ertosi wrote: »

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

Really. Just stop with incorrectly framing this issue as "Gambling" when its not. "Gambling" implies the chance to win real money. As no money can be won, crates fall under the broader category of "games of chance".

We already addressed this, the countries see it as gambling in their law cases going forward.

Gambling is putting something forward for the chance of gaining more or something else.

Only some places have chosen to move the legal definition for where the line is drawn on gambling, but that doesn't change the true definitions of the words. All gambling falls under games of chance, but not all games of chance are gambling. If no money can be won, it is not gambling.

Gambling commissions everywhere have a long history of trying to get gambling laws to include all games of chance rather than just those that involve the chance to win actual money. A few places have recently decided to go along with this redefinition, as such laws are often spun under the guise of trying to help those with generic addiction problems, but the reality is the laws are only being challenged and changed because they see video game companies making money and they want an unearned slice of the pie by regulating it.

You are adding context that has not been proven thus insinuating your interpretation is correct and the actual facts and science and psychology and other factors are meaningless or not of true importance. This is very dangerous and literal misrepresentation of reality. Do not do that.

Delsanab14_ESO

Bruccius wrote: »

LordSkyKnight wrote: »

Really. Just stop it with the "it's only cosmetics you don't have to buy it" argument stance. Nobody plays MMO games and want their characters to look like hobo bums. Every single player want's to customize their character with cool looking gear. That's why cosmetics are such a weakness for people and why the companies exploit that desire with the gambling boxes. It would really help if the whales and friends weren't mentally conditioned to accept such horrendously predatory behavior from gaming companies.

Last time I checked, there were already 10 (or is it more?) racial styles you can use for your armor. You can dye them, too. There are mementos you can unlock, etc. etc. etc.

There are plenty of ways to make your character ''cosmetic'' without paying any additional money for this game.

Oh goodness this is like saying "throw the poor an ugly t-shirt while we put on our nice furs and such for the winter". It's a ridiculous comparison.

Unit117

Ertosi wrote: »

Really. Just stop with incorrectly framing this issue as "Gambling" when its not. "Gambling" implies the chance to win real money. As no money can be won, crates fall under the broader category of "games of chance".

It is literally gambling. Gambling by definition is playing a game of chance for a desired outcome with money. .

Here’s is a list of definitions from multiple dictionaries and they all describe crown crates...

play games of chance for money;bet

take risky action in the hope of a desired result

the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes.

to bet on an uncertain outcome.


Now choose your definition. They all perfectly describe crown crates as gambling.

Ertosi

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

You are adding context that has not been proven thus insinuating your interpretation is correct and the actual facts and science and psychology and other factors are meaningless or not of true importance. This is very dangerous and literal misrepresentation of reality. Do not do that.

No. What I'm saying is to be careful what you call something. Its very dangerous to sling around and misuse words like "gambling". Just because a few locations have chosen to redefine gambling to include all games of chance doesn't mean the definition of the word magically retroactively changed everywhere.

Delsanab14_ESO

Juju_beans wrote: »

LordSkyKnight wrote: »

Really. Just stop it with the "it's only cosmetics you don't have to buy it" argument stance. Nobody plays MMO games and want their characters to look like hobo bums. Every single player want's to customize their character with cool looking gear. That's why cosmetics are such a weakness for people and why the companies exploit that desire with the gambling boxes. It would really help if the whales and friends weren't mentally conditioned to accept such horrendously predatory behavior from gaming companies.

I have plenty of neat looking costumes that I can dye different colors and I got them all for FREE just playing the game.
Being a gaming whale is a personal weakness. And if you blow hundreds of dollars in microtransactions then you "might" have a problem. But it is YOUR problem, not the game publisher's problem.

You can't even dye costumes without ESO Plus.

And I don't know many costumes in game that were "free" that were all that good.

Tigerseye

FlyingSwan wrote: »

...the more unappealing and socially unacceptable they look, the better.

No one should be considered" socially unacceptable" on the basis of their looks.

What should be considered socially unacceptable is judging people in that way.

I feel like I've been led massively off-topic, here, but still.

Ertosi

For those having issues with the definition of "gambling" lets look at loot bags outside of the game.



"Blind Bags" are popular in all corners of the toy industry. Is this gambling? Absolutely not. You're paying for a random toy and that's exactly what you get: a random toy. But should laws continue being changed to include all games of chance and not just true gambling (where money can be won), you can be certain they'll eventually be targeted as well. Why? Because its making money and regulating it allows others to stick their fingers in their pie.


Lets look at a very simplified extreme:



You put in a quarter but you have no idea what color you're going to get. Is it random? Most certainly. But its also equally certain that this isn't gambling; you're just getting a gumball.


All of these examples are exactly the same as Crown Crates: you put in your quarter(s) and you get a random assortment of prizes that have no monetary value. Some people enjoy that randomness and are willing to pay for it. That doesn't make it gambling as you're getting exactly what you paid for and it has no real value. If you don't like that, don't buy that. But its very misguided to call it gambling just because you don't like it and want to see it gone.

Tommy_The_Gun

Jim Sterling did a pretty good video last year about state of the video games when it comes to "cosmetics".
Imho it also applies to ESO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce5CDrq4dGg

In case this video got removed for some reason from my post i leave here the title (just search it on YouTube):
"It's Just Cosmetic (The Jimquisition)"

AcadianPaladin

What is the OP's suggestion to fund the game?

Drop microtransactions in favor of a subscription only? I think ESO started that way and it didn't work out too well for them.

Just make the game freeeee. Zenimax folds it up within a few months I figure since they have to pay the folks that make the game work.

I'm not trying to be a smartie here. I figure the game needs money or it folds. How should the game get its required operating revenue? I, for one, don't have a problem with some of the funding coming from 'Other Peoples' Money' (those who buy crates and spend lots in the Crown store).

Lake

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

What is the OP's suggestion to fund the game?

Drop microtransactions in favor of a subscription only? I think ESO started that way and it didn't work out too well for them.

Just make the game freeeee. Zenimax folds it up within a few months I figure since they have to pay the folks that make the game work.

I'm not trying to be a smartie here. I figure the game needs money or it folds. How should the game get its required operating revenue? I, for one, don't have a problem with some of the funding coming from 'Other Peoples' Money' (those who buy crates and spend lots in the Crown store).

Alcast claimed his ZOS sources told him they were making $50 million yearly.

While I support crown crates, this isn't a Guild Wars 2 situation where they hit record low revenues and needed to add lootboxes to survive - like the struggling GW2 did last year.

Parrot1986

Love how all my characters look and have never purchased one cosmetic from the store or used any that I’ve gotten from the free crates I’ve got.

For me the motifs, dyes, skins and collectibles from the game are excellent and more than enough to customise all my characters however I want.

This is just another “I don’t like it so no one else should either” thread

I’d much rather a crown store full of cosmetics than things that can be used in game for boosts to skill lines, auto levelling or buffs better than those in game. If the day comes where that happens the games in a real problem.