[Class Reps] Update & Meeting Notes - Dec 7

zyk

Joy_Division wrote: »

I do think people got a little too comfortable having 100% uptime at or near the speedcap and are pining for the days they could just out-run the zergs that chased them.

Yes, because the organized zergs still have close to 100% uptime of Major Expedition.

The mobility changes badly hurt playstyle balance in Cyrodiil. Ball groups are way too strong.

kaithuzar

@Joy_Division
It’ll be interesting to see the new patch notes.

Time & time again players have spoke out against proc sets ever since viper & velidreth, was that 2016?

Yet we still have them.
I have never seen a magdk play w/o skoria; even though blood spawn is a viable option.
Even magplar & magblades do this...

Proc sets, doesn’t have to mean damage.
My complaint is anything that proc’s which will allow a player to make mistakes & have their gear save them due to the gears ability or proc being too powerful.

Examples:
Magdk/magplar/magblade - skoria
Stamnb/stamden/stamsorc - troll king

You could probably make arguments for Malubeth, Zaan, Earthgore, & maybe even Thorvukan as well.

ezio45

Liam12548 wrote: »

Holy PvP disappointment. This set of notes has completely confirmed my fears that we were being poorly represented by our class reps.

Damage shields feel stronger than previous if you adapt your build properly. Min maxing your capacity and wearing bloodspawn or resistances as well as using an appropriate amount of crit resist (something that mag builds got to forgo previously while stam still needed 7 impen) elsewhere should provide you with wards that feel stronger than last patch. The only builds that may feel their wards are weaker than previous are the 55k+ max mag setups that ran no resists or crit resist and haven't adapted their setups.

No one uses speed pots. 14.7 seconds is not worth using over a full duration resource buff and burst resource restore. Most stam builds that ran those previously are now using tri pots, stam health immovs, or stam crit immovs. Movement speed is now being accessed mainly through the steed and bow, or quick cloak for heavy builds. In general, stam mobility is trashed in open world. I'm not really sure where the "many people still use speed pots" info game from, but if it is data taken directly from potion usage statistics available to zenimax, I'm 100% sure this is just people using their leftover potions. The potions should be buffed to a 25 or 30s, as major expedition is no where near as strong a buff as vitalty (which zos equated it to when making these adjustments).

Skills and passives that provide expedition should never have been touched. It is laughable that many 5-6 second expedition buffs where nerfed for no apparent reason. It was unnecessary to nerf V.O and dreugh king, as well.

The new major evasion provides less mitigation than the old evasion. The fact that for some reason it is being considered "to strong" and a "no consequence skill" are laughable. Medium armor STILL has no good snare immunity, and shuffle has to be used so frequently that in no cp you burn your stam out faster than ever trying to stay mobile. In CP it is not nearly as viable as simply switching into heavy with forward and using blade cloak for the AOE mit. The 25% aoe mitigation is strong against SOME specs (mainly stamina wardens, magplars using jabs, stamplars), but having no passive dodge still results in less mitigation overall than previously available against the vast majority of players, especially considering many stam setups chose to run both shuffle and blade cloak previously.

Still not sure why warden received buffs when it is easily the strongest class in game currently, both mag and stam. I've been playing both this patch and can confirm that each brings more to a group than any other class can. They are only lacking in duels or solo play, and this has nothing to do with the buffs, sustain, or damage available to them but more so the nature of subterranean/deep fissure.

My light armor mag specs using mist form are more mobile than my medium armor stam specs using shuffle. The new grace passive is really nice, but the fact that shuffle was not buffed to provide the "Mobility" armor weight with more mobility than the other two weights is a joke. Shuffle should be increased to a minimum of .75s per piece of medium armor worn.

Overall these notes have made me very nervous for the balancing changes coming with the next patch, as well as confirming my suspicions that many of the class reps are not actually providing accurate feedback to the real imbalances in PvP.

EDIT: The only thing I'm happy to see in here is the "major/minor" snare suggestion, which is one I've backed for a while. In addition to this, ZoS should create a ROOT/IMMOBILIZE specific immunity which is on it's own cooldown, or is tied to CC immunity but also encompassed by snare immunity. The root meta is out of control right now.

strongly disagree an the shields.

the problem is trying to get an appropriate amount of crit resist on magic, specially sorc, is near impossible without making the build non competitive.

sorc has been surviving with the stable build of shackle and a sustain set since morrowind. to get a good amount of crit resist your going to need all impen and impreg, thats going to have to take the sustain sets place. without that sorc sustain is around 1200 with a rotation that the only pressure you have is a spammable. The all divines loss brings spell damage stat on a sorc down to like 2.9k -3.2k which is way below the average which is like 3.8-4.2k

stam is fine with all impen because they do 1 of 2 things. Wear all impen 5 medium with impreg with the 5 medium set being a damage set. Or they run 5 heavy impen with both sets being damage.

sorc cant run impen on a light damage set because there armor slot is taken for all light armor users by shackle breaker. They dont have anything to contribute to damage at that point. so that rules out the first option 5 non heavy with impen and impreg. If that option wasnt ruled out enough the impreg would take the sustain set from sorc which they need because their sustain is already below competitive.

sorc also cant do the 5 heavy all impen with 2 damage sets because 1 there arnt any effective or competitive heavy armor mag options and 2 you still need the shackle breaker which yes you can craft in heavy but its not a damage set. which takes up 1/2 set places and the sustain set again takes up 2/2 set places

you cant build magsorc around crit, it puts to much stress on the class where to get average survuvability you end up being below competitive and unable to manage in another area.

IAVITNI

ezio45 wrote: »

strongly disagree an the shields.

the problem is trying to get an appropriate amount of crit resist on magic, specially sorc, is near impossible without making the build non competitive.

sorc has been surviving with the stable build of shackle and a sustain set since morrowind. to get a good amount of crit resist your going to need all impen and impreg, thats going to have to take the sustain sets place. without that sorc sustain is around 1200 with a rotation that the only pressure you have is a spammable. The all divines loss brings spell damage stat on a sorc down to like 2.9k -3.2k which is way below the average which is like 3.8-4.2k

stam is fine with all impen because they do 1 of 2 things. Wear all impen 5 medium with impreg with the 5 medium set being a damage set. Or they run 5 heavy impen with both sets being damage.

sorc cant run impen on a light damage set because there armor slot is taken for all light armor users by shackle breaker. They dont have anything to contribute to damage at that point. so that rules out the first option 5 non heavy with impen and impreg. If that option wasnt ruled out enough the impreg would take the sustain set from sorc which they need because their sustain is already below competitive.

sorc also cant do the 5 heavy all impen with 2 damage sets because 1 there arnt any effective or competitive heavy armor mag options and 2 you still need the shackle breaker which yes you can craft in heavy but its not a damage set. which takes up 1/2 set places and the sustain set again takes up 2/2 set places

you cant build magsorc around crit, it puts to much stress on the class where to get average survuvability you end up being below competitive and unable to manage in another area.

It's not that bad tbh. I've gotten my shields to a point where they feel similar to pre-murkmire and frag tooltip is 14.3k pre weapon glyph. The only real drawback on sorc is sustain and lack of a proper heal. Dropping healing ward just isn't an option as it is still your biggest shield in execute.

TBH I don't feel dark deal is worth the slot right now as the returns aren't worth the cost. Another example of half though out changes. Cast time should have been reduced to 1 second or even 0.75. Shield costs should have been reduced by a significant amount considering the huge nerf they took etc.

IAVITNI

Minno wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Didnt think this was getting posted lol. I am adding my thoughts based on the list.

Speed:
- I dare say swift was fine before the nerf. It was the only counter to zerging for some classes. It should have been a speed cap drop so slow classes (templar, DK) could move around zergs while other more mobile classes (NB, Sorc, Warden) wouldnt see any changes or abuse the extra speed. Swift could also get extra snare reduction to compensate for the nerfs as another idea (or small regen similar to how steed mundas works). You trade ALOT of max mag for running 3x swift, but current swift values do not justify the transmute/crafting.
- major expedition sources nerfed was too much with magden taking the full hit.
- immunity duration was fine.

Shields:
- some classes can sustain these shields, some can't.
- weird lag causes weird shield clunky casting. Some players think its reported to be the animation change from instant cast to cast time (which never got reversed).
- shields drop fast due to inflated crit hit dmg versus crit resist modifiers. Unless you run impreg/trans, most builds are receiving 1.36+ modifiers (turning 15k/20k easy to get burst dmg into 20k/27200. I think adding crit resist jewel traits will help offset this or increase build diversity, while having the same "do I pick max stat/dmg or utility" drawback.)

Evasion:
- 15% for shuffle? Why bother using this ability lol. Shuffle needs a rework if that goes live; 10 seconds of major expedition on cast will do well for alot of classes that need it (stamplar)!
- agreed that evasion impacts alot of classes/builds with no drawback. Agreed on changes, just rework shuffle (PVE can use a weapon for their trials for this buff)

Light Armor:
- agreed that problem is mag toons don't have immunity/reduction outside vampire (id like to see two hander take 15% extra damage from dawnbreakers/fire + forward momentum requiring you to be stuck in a zero stam regen channel if anyone thinks mag having to slot vamp for immunity/removal is fair lol)
- snare reduction is a nice idea, but overall lack of speed options and defensive options outside shields makes light weaker for solo play.
- vamp requirement makes LA spell resist passive take on heavy loads from fire dmg. Outside mobility options will fix this, and mist form is still powerful to justify slotting it. Diversity!
- we already had CP snare reduction, problem is a percentage reduction off a percentage, leads to terrible gains. The old CP only gave like 2 seconds off at 10% (30 points mind you) and was only possible when we had tumbling give both break free + dodge reduction. CP is not the answer.
- snare rework required; no way around it. But major/minor system will not solve issues (we already have this system with the largest snare overriding the lowest). Snare values might need to be dropped or speed increased!

Sets:
- too much work for little benefits. Bright is a nice set because it gives you stats with a clear drawback (drinks and 5pc always on). Similar sets needed.
- need more stat based monster sets. We still don't have speed, crit resist, penetration, mobility, and could use more unique defensive/regen/healing options.
- unique sets for each area of play, with more crossing as well (so PVE crowd has incentive to go into PVP once in awhile, same for PVP going into PVE.)


BGs:
- add group dueling options.
- turn BG's into solo or 2-man group ques only.
- CP creep needs to be reduced and power placed back to classes.
- additional crit resist options outside trans/impreg would help
- additional major protection sources are helping, but most are too niche to run on certain mag specs.


Cyro,
- new map changes are refreshing. But after playing appear too linear/obtuse in map play.
- issue in cyro is lack of speed options and lack of enjoyment outside the zerglanes. But I think lag is causing players to not do much, as they don't want to ride to an empty area to fight no one for zero AP gains when they can spam heals/aoes/seige in lag and get 10-15k AP per keep lose/win.
- turn off bot protection in cyro; it's not needed as the players are the anti-bot protection lol.
- look into additional UI systems causing performance issues/lag (example the guild roster using up resources checking player statuses). Willing to bet the cyro map is updating too much.


That is all I have!

First of all, shame on every single person that did not like this post.

Second, I'm going to quote the whole thing unbroken so that people will have to read it again and give them a chance to redeem themselves by going back and liking the original post.

Third, I do disagree with 1 single point and only with the current state of magicka as a whole, and even then, I agree more than I disagree.

Minno wrote: »

I think adding crit resist jewel traits will help offset this or increase build diversity, while having the same "do I pick max stat/dmg or utility" drawback.)"

More sources of impen is 100% welcome and will definitely increase build diversity. However, I disagree (and for the sole reason that this was mentioned in relation to shields) that this would actually help offset shields dropping to fast. As most builds will be trading arcane for impen, players are trading shield strength for shield strength. General strength for niche strength at that. The only way impen jewelry would help shields is if the values are so stupid OP that stamina becomes immune to crit.

Light armor shield builds are already starved for stats as it is.

• Destro heavy attacks are unrealiable meaning mag needs more sustain than stam
• High mag costs for skills across the board compared to stamina
• Previous benefit of ability to ignore mitigation stats is no longer true, and light armor actually requires higher resistances due to less access to dodge, block and HoTs like Vigor. Stats that were previously used for damage/sustain must now be invested into mitigation, and at a greater rate than stamina
• Requirement to invest into off stat, something that most stamina builds can completely ignore. Bone Pirate is a guaranteed benefit to any stam build, even if it is not BiS. Bright-Throat can be detrimental due to the necessity of stamina in a PvP environment

The point is, light armor needs an internal buff, not complimenting gear sets and stats. Now I'm not saying double everything. This isn't Diablo 3. But some things that arguably NEED to happen for light armor to be viable in PvP

• Reduce costs of skills, especially shields. The high costs was validated by the fact that they ignored offensive stats. They no longer do this, so now shields require both heavy stat and resource investments
• Return the heal to Healing Ward or provide magblade and magsorc with better reliable heals. BoL, Spores and Cauterize will work on any build. Dark Cloak and Dark Deal will not. Does ZoS not like Dark things?
• Shields cannot crit but can be crit themselves. A "necessary" change I suppose. Shields needed a change but Murkmire changes killed shield identity and light armor play style. If my shields drop its ok because I'm still tanky underneath. Shields could still use some innate reduction to crit damage. Maybe extra impen with a shield or just a flat crit reduction. Something to offset the nigh impossibility of surviving crit builds w/o impregnable/trans but still small enough that crits still hurt.

To clarify, all the above changes would be very very small changes. Like a 3% cost reduction across the board (probably greater for shields-like 5%-6%), Healing Ward providing a heal when it expires (not on cast) and 5% crit reduction or an extra impen trait.

I agree with your post!

Don't undervalue crit resists though; their value, even on shields, is better due to their order in the dmg mitigation equation.

We might have to do the exact math, but Id wager adding crit resists to be closer to 4k with jewels+CP would be balanced by the ability to use 2 5pc sets for extra dmg/regen and the fact that you turn a 1.36-1.46 modifer into a 1.15-1.20. That 20k attack , instead of an even worse 27200, you turn it into a 23000 (4200 dmg difference, which is probably more than the size of your shield gain running 3x arcane. )

Solid point. When you throw some math in their I can definitely validate the trade-off.

I still have concerns that ZoS will provide the trait and not only call it a day but make jewelry a 10 trait and then I have to wait like 30 days for research to transmute. That or they provide impen glyphs. Which changes the opportunity cost entirely.

But even with all that, it's still a matter of relativity. No compensation for changes is ok when the changes are incremental. Full swing changes that ZoS likes to do need a counter-balance that is never actually provided. Light Armor, specifically in relation to shields needs an in-house compensation. Outside a light armor/magicka oriented set that will kill build diversity, any indirect improvement to light armor and shields will also indirectly buff non-shield builds and armors, retaining the gap in power we see on live.

SaintSubwayy

BretonMage wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*] Shields feel strong in PvE

Who are the class reps speaking for here? I seriously doubt most players would agree that shields are strong.

I personally would say shields are okeish...
But again here is the difference between pvp and pve a big problem
In pve when there is a dot on you you could shield once and move on, now you sometimes have to reshield because the shield is weaker

Lord_Eomer

Not feeling anything out from Meeting Notes,

Seem like things are not living up-to the hype!

technohic

I think people who get disappointed are expecting too much. This is just dialogue where the devs are going to still make the decisions. The only thing the reps can do is present our concerns and argue out cases which is a lot more than before they had this. And not everyone will agree with everyone else even with that so the big thing we get is

Before
-dev sees concern on forum or Gina/Jessica/whoever passes it on
-dev thinks "Ah they don't see the bigger picture.' Concern discarded

now
-class reps have conversation with dev where concerns are presented
- -dev thinks "Ah they don't see the bigger picture.' explains to class reps why they dont think the concern is that bad
-Class reps then can counter argue with points maybe the dev was not thinking about and can have a back and forth
-dev either convinced or stays course with their decision

I think we're better off, but if you think it means we get everything we want, even if it seems to be consensus; prepare to be disappointed.

LukosCreyden

Hey, @ZOS_GinaBruno

Necromancer class rep here.
Just wanted to point out, I couldn't help but notice that I wasn't invited to the recent class rep meeting. Or any previous ones. Or that my class doesn't exist.

I know this is likely just a minor error, but felt it worth pointing out I'm sure this will get fixed soon enough!

Thanka Gina, and have a merry christmas!

bardx86

IAVITNI wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

strongly disagree an the shields.

the problem is trying to get an appropriate amount of crit resist on magic, specially sorc, is near impossible without making the build non competitive.

sorc has been surviving with the stable build of shackle and a sustain set since morrowind. to get a good amount of crit resist your going to need all impen and impreg, thats going to have to take the sustain sets place. without that sorc sustain is around 1200 with a rotation that the only pressure you have is a spammable. The all divines loss brings spell damage stat on a sorc down to like 2.9k -3.2k which is way below the average which is like 3.8-4.2k

stam is fine with all impen because they do 1 of 2 things. Wear all impen 5 medium with impreg with the 5 medium set being a damage set. Or they run 5 heavy impen with both sets being damage.

sorc cant run impen on a light damage set because there armor slot is taken for all light armor users by shackle breaker. They dont have anything to contribute to damage at that point. so that rules out the first option 5 non heavy with impen and impreg. If that option wasnt ruled out enough the impreg would take the sustain set from sorc which they need because their sustain is already below competitive.

sorc also cant do the 5 heavy all impen with 2 damage sets because 1 there arnt any effective or competitive heavy armor mag options and 2 you still need the shackle breaker which yes you can craft in heavy but its not a damage set. which takes up 1/2 set places and the sustain set again takes up 2/2 set places

you cant build magsorc around crit, it puts to much stress on the class where to get average survuvability you end up being below competitive and unable to manage in another area.

It's not that bad tbh. I've gotten my shields to a point where they feel similar to pre-murkmire and frag tooltip is 14.3k pre weapon glyph. The only real drawback on sorc is sustain and lack of a proper heal. Dropping healing ward just isn't an option as it is still your biggest shield in execute.

TBH I don't feel dark deal is worth the slot right now as the returns aren't worth the cost. Another example of half though out changes. Cast time should have been reduced to 1 second or even 0.75. Shield costs should have been reduced by a significant amount considering the huge nerf they took etc.

It should have no cast time. its super lame currently.

IAVITNI

bardx86 wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

strongly disagree an the shields.

the problem is trying to get an appropriate amount of crit resist on magic, specially sorc, is near impossible without making the build non competitive.

sorc has been surviving with the stable build of shackle and a sustain set since morrowind. to get a good amount of crit resist your going to need all impen and impreg, thats going to have to take the sustain sets place. without that sorc sustain is around 1200 with a rotation that the only pressure you have is a spammable. The all divines loss brings spell damage stat on a sorc down to like 2.9k -3.2k which is way below the average which is like 3.8-4.2k

stam is fine with all impen because they do 1 of 2 things. Wear all impen 5 medium with impreg with the 5 medium set being a damage set. Or they run 5 heavy impen with both sets being damage.

sorc cant run impen on a light damage set because there armor slot is taken for all light armor users by shackle breaker. They dont have anything to contribute to damage at that point. so that rules out the first option 5 non heavy with impen and impreg. If that option wasnt ruled out enough the impreg would take the sustain set from sorc which they need because their sustain is already below competitive.

sorc also cant do the 5 heavy all impen with 2 damage sets because 1 there arnt any effective or competitive heavy armor mag options and 2 you still need the shackle breaker which yes you can craft in heavy but its not a damage set. which takes up 1/2 set places and the sustain set again takes up 2/2 set places

you cant build magsorc around crit, it puts to much stress on the class where to get average survuvability you end up being below competitive and unable to manage in another area.

It's not that bad tbh. I've gotten my shields to a point where they feel similar to pre-murkmire and frag tooltip is 14.3k pre weapon glyph. The only real drawback on sorc is sustain and lack of a proper heal. Dropping healing ward just isn't an option as it is still your biggest shield in execute.

TBH I don't feel dark deal is worth the slot right now as the returns aren't worth the cost. Another example of half though out changes. Cast time should have been reduced to 1 second or even 0.75. Shield costs should have been reduced by a significant amount considering the huge nerf they took etc.

It should have no cast time. its super lame currently.

no cast time would be too strong. Burst heal and resource return? It b more aids than BoL

Minno

IAVITNI wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Didnt think this was getting posted lol. I am adding my thoughts based on the list.

Speed:
- I dare say swift was fine before the nerf. It was the only counter to zerging for some classes. It should have been a speed cap drop so slow classes (templar, DK) could move around zergs while other more mobile classes (NB, Sorc, Warden) wouldnt see any changes or abuse the extra speed. Swift could also get extra snare reduction to compensate for the nerfs as another idea (or small regen similar to how steed mundas works). You trade ALOT of max mag for running 3x swift, but current swift values do not justify the transmute/crafting.
- major expedition sources nerfed was too much with magden taking the full hit.
- immunity duration was fine.

Shields:
- some classes can sustain these shields, some can't.
- weird lag causes weird shield clunky casting. Some players think its reported to be the animation change from instant cast to cast time (which never got reversed).
- shields drop fast due to inflated crit hit dmg versus crit resist modifiers. Unless you run impreg/trans, most builds are receiving 1.36+ modifiers (turning 15k/20k easy to get burst dmg into 20k/27200. I think adding crit resist jewel traits will help offset this or increase build diversity, while having the same "do I pick max stat/dmg or utility" drawback.)

Evasion:
- 15% for shuffle? Why bother using this ability lol. Shuffle needs a rework if that goes live; 10 seconds of major expedition on cast will do well for alot of classes that need it (stamplar)!
- agreed that evasion impacts alot of classes/builds with no drawback. Agreed on changes, just rework shuffle (PVE can use a weapon for their trials for this buff)

Light Armor:
- agreed that problem is mag toons don't have immunity/reduction outside vampire (id like to see two hander take 15% extra damage from dawnbreakers/fire + forward momentum requiring you to be stuck in a zero stam regen channel if anyone thinks mag having to slot vamp for immunity/removal is fair lol)
- snare reduction is a nice idea, but overall lack of speed options and defensive options outside shields makes light weaker for solo play.
- vamp requirement makes LA spell resist passive take on heavy loads from fire dmg. Outside mobility options will fix this, and mist form is still powerful to justify slotting it. Diversity!
- we already had CP snare reduction, problem is a percentage reduction off a percentage, leads to terrible gains. The old CP only gave like 2 seconds off at 10% (30 points mind you) and was only possible when we had tumbling give both break free + dodge reduction. CP is not the answer.
- snare rework required; no way around it. But major/minor system will not solve issues (we already have this system with the largest snare overriding the lowest). Snare values might need to be dropped or speed increased!

Sets:
- too much work for little benefits. Bright is a nice set because it gives you stats with a clear drawback (drinks and 5pc always on). Similar sets needed.
- need more stat based monster sets. We still don't have speed, crit resist, penetration, mobility, and could use more unique defensive/regen/healing options.
- unique sets for each area of play, with more crossing as well (so PVE crowd has incentive to go into PVP once in awhile, same for PVP going into PVE.)


BGs:
- add group dueling options.
- turn BG's into solo or 2-man group ques only.
- CP creep needs to be reduced and power placed back to classes.
- additional crit resist options outside trans/impreg would help
- additional major protection sources are helping, but most are too niche to run on certain mag specs.


Cyro,
- new map changes are refreshing. But after playing appear too linear/obtuse in map play.
- issue in cyro is lack of speed options and lack of enjoyment outside the zerglanes. But I think lag is causing players to not do much, as they don't want to ride to an empty area to fight no one for zero AP gains when they can spam heals/aoes/seige in lag and get 10-15k AP per keep lose/win.
- turn off bot protection in cyro; it's not needed as the players are the anti-bot protection lol.
- look into additional UI systems causing performance issues/lag (example the guild roster using up resources checking player statuses). Willing to bet the cyro map is updating too much.


That is all I have!

First of all, shame on every single person that did not like this post.

Second, I'm going to quote the whole thing unbroken so that people will have to read it again and give them a chance to redeem themselves by going back and liking the original post.

Third, I do disagree with 1 single point and only with the current state of magicka as a whole, and even then, I agree more than I disagree.

Minno wrote: »

I think adding crit resist jewel traits will help offset this or increase build diversity, while having the same "do I pick max stat/dmg or utility" drawback.)"

More sources of impen is 100% welcome and will definitely increase build diversity. However, I disagree (and for the sole reason that this was mentioned in relation to shields) that this would actually help offset shields dropping to fast. As most builds will be trading arcane for impen, players are trading shield strength for shield strength. General strength for niche strength at that. The only way impen jewelry would help shields is if the values are so stupid OP that stamina becomes immune to crit.

Light armor shield builds are already starved for stats as it is.

• Destro heavy attacks are unrealiable meaning mag needs more sustain than stam
• High mag costs for skills across the board compared to stamina
• Previous benefit of ability to ignore mitigation stats is no longer true, and light armor actually requires higher resistances due to less access to dodge, block and HoTs like Vigor. Stats that were previously used for damage/sustain must now be invested into mitigation, and at a greater rate than stamina
• Requirement to invest into off stat, something that most stamina builds can completely ignore. Bone Pirate is a guaranteed benefit to any stam build, even if it is not BiS. Bright-Throat can be detrimental due to the necessity of stamina in a PvP environment

The point is, light armor needs an internal buff, not complimenting gear sets and stats. Now I'm not saying double everything. This isn't Diablo 3. But some things that arguably NEED to happen for light armor to be viable in PvP

• Reduce costs of skills, especially shields. The high costs was validated by the fact that they ignored offensive stats. They no longer do this, so now shields require both heavy stat and resource investments
• Return the heal to Healing Ward or provide magblade and magsorc with better reliable heals. BoL, Spores and Cauterize will work on any build. Dark Cloak and Dark Deal will not. Does ZoS not like Dark things?
• Shields cannot crit but can be crit themselves. A "necessary" change I suppose. Shields needed a change but Murkmire changes killed shield identity and light armor play style. If my shields drop its ok because I'm still tanky underneath. Shields could still use some innate reduction to crit damage. Maybe extra impen with a shield or just a flat crit reduction. Something to offset the nigh impossibility of surviving crit builds w/o impregnable/trans but still small enough that crits still hurt.

To clarify, all the above changes would be very very small changes. Like a 3% cost reduction across the board (probably greater for shields-like 5%-6%), Healing Ward providing a heal when it expires (not on cast) and 5% crit reduction or an extra impen trait.

I agree with your post!

Don't undervalue crit resists though; their value, even on shields, is better due to their order in the dmg mitigation equation.

We might have to do the exact math, but Id wager adding crit resists to be closer to 4k with jewels+CP would be balanced by the ability to use 2 5pc sets for extra dmg/regen and the fact that you turn a 1.36-1.46 modifer into a 1.15-1.20. That 20k attack , instead of an even worse 27200, you turn it into a 23000 (4200 dmg difference, which is probably more than the size of your shield gain running 3x arcane. )

Solid point. When you throw some math in their I can definitely validate the trade-off.

I still have concerns that ZoS will provide the trait and not only call it a day but make jewelry a 10 trait and then I have to wait like 30 days for research to transmute. That or they provide impen glyphs. Which changes the opportunity cost entirely.

But even with all that, it's still a matter of relativity. No compensation for changes is ok when the changes are incremental. Full swing changes that ZoS likes to do need a counter-balance that is never actually provided. Light Armor, specifically in relation to shields needs an in-house compensation. Outside a light armor/magicka oriented set that will kill build diversity, any indirect improvement to light armor and shields will also indirectly buff non-shield builds and armors, retaining the gap in power we see on live.

What is your shield value with 3x arcane and shield value with something like 3x protective?
Include armor buffs too. I want to do a quick dirty calc using 4 situations (one 3x arcane, one 3x protective, one 3x fictitious crit resist, and one using one of each).

Minno

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Not feeling anything out from Meeting Notes,

Seem like things are not living up-to the hype!

state of the union rep meeting is what it looked like to me. I think they want to gear up the new year prior to PTS, get those changes in (if any) and then give us some news once the new year hits.

karekiz

Speaking of Old Sets

I wouldn't mind if DLC vet dungeons sets were added with the Minor slayer/aegis system. Just using the imperfect/perfect system we have now <normal would remove these buffs vet items would add them>. Since trials now seperate normal/veteran stat differences it doesn't feel as if it should tred on raid gear too much as most normal trials are in general easier than some Vet DLC 4 man content.

Nothing gamebreaking, but would be a nice reward for harder 4 man content.

ezio45

IAVITNI wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

strongly disagree an the shields.

the problem is trying to get an appropriate amount of crit resist on magic, specially sorc, is near impossible without making the build non competitive.

sorc has been surviving with the stable build of shackle and a sustain set since morrowind. to get a good amount of crit resist your going to need all impen and impreg, thats going to have to take the sustain sets place. without that sorc sustain is around 1200 with a rotation that the only pressure you have is a spammable. The all divines loss brings spell damage stat on a sorc down to like 2.9k -3.2k which is way below the average which is like 3.8-4.2k

stam is fine with all impen because they do 1 of 2 things. Wear all impen 5 medium with impreg with the 5 medium set being a damage set. Or they run 5 heavy impen with both sets being damage.

sorc cant run impen on a light damage set because there armor slot is taken for all light armor users by shackle breaker. They dont have anything to contribute to damage at that point. so that rules out the first option 5 non heavy with impen and impreg. If that option wasnt ruled out enough the impreg would take the sustain set from sorc which they need because their sustain is already below competitive.

sorc also cant do the 5 heavy all impen with 2 damage sets because 1 there arnt any effective or competitive heavy armor mag options and 2 you still need the shackle breaker which yes you can craft in heavy but its not a damage set. which takes up 1/2 set places and the sustain set again takes up 2/2 set places

you cant build magsorc around crit, it puts to much stress on the class where to get average survuvability you end up being below competitive and unable to manage in another area.

It's not that bad tbh. I've gotten my shields to a point where they feel similar to pre-murkmire and frag tooltip is 14.3k pre weapon glyph. The only real drawback on sorc is sustain and lack of a proper heal. Dropping healing ward just isn't an option as it is still your biggest shield in execute.

TBH I don't feel dark deal is worth the slot right now as the returns aren't worth the cost. Another example of half though out changes. Cast time should have been reduced to 1 second or even 0.75. Shield costs should have been reduced by a significant amount considering the huge nerf they took etc.

that frag tool tip is really low, thats like 7k in pvp before resistance and damage mit, i mean its enough to obliterate medium without impen but your not killing anything with the correct set up with that. your looking at maybe 10k damage if you get frag and curse to hit at the same time and thats only like 50% health, no where near execute and after that any play worth a damn is gunna heal to full health. thats if they didnt block

thats what i mean, to get decent survivability you have to get noncompetitive damage.

and ya sorc sustain is terrible ans the shields cost way to much for what they are now but even a sustain increase isnt going to help that much, its just going to get you to be able to run impreg comfortably but damage still is gunna be weak

IAVITNI

Minno wrote: »

What is your shield value with 3x arcane and shield value with something like 3x protective?
Include armor buffs too. I want to do a quick dirty calc using 4 situations (one 3x arcane, one 3x protective, one 3x fictitious crit resist, and one using one of each).

Not too sure what you're asking. Are you referring to effective shield value? Or just tooltip and character sheet values?

IAVITNI

ezio45 wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

strongly disagree an the shields.

the problem is trying to get an appropriate amount of crit resist on magic, specially sorc, is near impossible without making the build non competitive.

sorc has been surviving with the stable build of shackle and a sustain set since morrowind. to get a good amount of crit resist your going to need all impen and impreg, thats going to have to take the sustain sets place. without that sorc sustain is around 1200 with a rotation that the only pressure you have is a spammable. The all divines loss brings spell damage stat on a sorc down to like 2.9k -3.2k which is way below the average which is like 3.8-4.2k

stam is fine with all impen because they do 1 of 2 things. Wear all impen 5 medium with impreg with the 5 medium set being a damage set. Or they run 5 heavy impen with both sets being damage.

sorc cant run impen on a light damage set because there armor slot is taken for all light armor users by shackle breaker. They dont have anything to contribute to damage at that point. so that rules out the first option 5 non heavy with impen and impreg. If that option wasnt ruled out enough the impreg would take the sustain set from sorc which they need because their sustain is already below competitive.

sorc also cant do the 5 heavy all impen with 2 damage sets because 1 there arnt any effective or competitive heavy armor mag options and 2 you still need the shackle breaker which yes you can craft in heavy but its not a damage set. which takes up 1/2 set places and the sustain set again takes up 2/2 set places

you cant build magsorc around crit, it puts to much stress on the class where to get average survuvability you end up being below competitive and unable to manage in another area.

It's not that bad tbh. I've gotten my shields to a point where they feel similar to pre-murkmire and frag tooltip is 14.3k pre weapon glyph. The only real drawback on sorc is sustain and lack of a proper heal. Dropping healing ward just isn't an option as it is still your biggest shield in execute.

TBH I don't feel dark deal is worth the slot right now as the returns aren't worth the cost. Another example of half though out changes. Cast time should have been reduced to 1 second or even 0.75. Shield costs should have been reduced by a significant amount considering the huge nerf they took etc.

that frag tool tip is really low, thats like 7k in pvp before resistance and damage mit, i mean its enough to obliterate medium without impen but your not killing anything with the correct set up with that. your looking at maybe 10k damage if you get frag and curse to hit at the same time and thats only like 50% health, no where near execute and after that any play worth a damn is gunna heal to full health. thats if they didnt block

thats what i mean, to get decent survivability you have to get noncompetitive damage.

and ya sorc sustain is terrible ans the shields cost way to much for what they are now but even a sustain increase isnt going to help that much, its just going to get you to be able to run impreg comfortably but damage still is gunna be weak

Burst is closer to 12k once you factor in the 20% proc damage. And against a good opponent I am going to need an ultimate anyways. Versus a bad opponent with a youtube build, I can just outplay them. The damage is there but it is very crit reliant.

I've still glocked magplars and heavy stam DKs with the build. Some of which were players that are very well known Ps4 NA, and are usually favoured to win duel tournaments. Not me stating I'm the best (because those players would beat me 9/10 times), but that the damage is there to burst proper builds if played right.

I wouldn't say it's not competitive but it is definitely lacking. There is still the possibility to burst properly built and played opponents, but it is extremely hard to set those up, especially in relation to other classes. I just don't want the issue to be blown out of proportion.

At the end of the day, QoL buffs to our mobility and zoning skills and cost reductions/sustain improvements will be enough. It would be "nice" if Conjured Ward received some form of extra mitigation, at least against crit to further distinguish it from Dampen but the QoL and sustain improvements need to happen first.

SirAndy

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Shields feel strong in PvE

Too bad nobody on that Class Rep list plays a mag PetSorc, otherwise that statement would not have made it on those notes.

ccmedaddy

Nerf rapids so people can stop bitching about the speed nerf, for the love of god.

Minno

IAVITNI wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

What is your shield value with 3x arcane and shield value with something like 3x protective?
Include armor buffs too. I want to do a quick dirty calc using 4 situations (one 3x arcane, one 3x protective, one 3x fictitious crit resist, and one using one of each).

Not too sure what you're asking. Are you referring to effective shield value? Or just tooltip and character sheet values?

Just the values from a typical Sorc build.

Savos_Saren

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jakx wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

@ClassReps

Serious question,

How many of you are currently playing magicka classes other than magdk?

Think hard about this before promoting nerfs/buffs.

This so much.

When we talk about snares and melee's inability to move.. thats called a counter. Its the only one a magicka player has largely. It seems like melee players want to have 100% up time on targets. Lets consider the environment too right now. Stamina is insanely more powerful than magicka currently. So Stamina should be way more powerful than magicka and have their counter taken away? No......

Any post I see championing Stamina users to have their movement restored should also include asking for their damage nerfed too. Tell me how you're ready to accept a nerf to unmitagable bleed stacking, a nerf to proc sets playing the game for you, and a nerf to spin-to-win steel tornado thats an undodgeable aoe execute. Then I'll be happy to talk movement restoration for Stamina.

Some of these posts really don't seem to consider the breath of gameplay balance.

I am of the opinion that snares and roots are necessary evils for the game (I main a slow melee oriented class), but I also believe that counters should be available to help players deal with those snares and roots.

I do think people got a little too comfortable having 100% uptime at or near the speedcap and are pining for the days they could just out-run the zergs that chased them. ZOS had the correct instinct to reign that in. the issue was rather than using a "chisel" to try and attain that by identifying likely core issues (speed stacking not being subject to diminishing returns for example) they just blindsided the community with blanket nerfs to everything and swung the pendulum too far the other way.

I have seen numerous stamina users themselves criticize bleeds and "spin2win" as being too easy and strong. And I think most players would prefer proc sets not play the game for them. I think there is a middle ground here that we can shoot for in Update 21.

@Joy_Division
100% agree here. Mag classes like DK and MagDen have no execute (or an awkward one for warden) so they rely on snaring an enemy to wear them down.

DKs and MagDens haven’t received huge buffs recently- it’s just that the speed meta has been toned down.

If ZOS trashes their snares- are DKs and MagDens going to get executes?

Joy_Division

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Nerf rapids so people can stop bitching about the speed nerf, for the love of god.

I can not agree that nerfing something else is the best way to get people to stop complaining about a previous nerf.

TheYKcid

Been maining Sorc again lately, and frankly the shield nerfs have been alright in the end. I always ran Bloodspawn, Boundless and full impen, anyway, so with the addition of defending trait on my backbar (sacrificing a bit of damage from infused) I can get my shields feeling about as strong as they were pre-Murkmire.

Damage and sustain still feel good, since Sorc has access to the same, great sustain sets, which indirectly boost damage by letting you run spell dmg glyphs, Mage mundus, etc. Mobility is relatively better since everyone else got slowed down by a lot.

My only two big gripes right now are:

• Shoehorned into Master Destro—not much option here since Sorc needs the extra barslot and the CC. But it would be nice for vet arena weapons to get that 1pc stat bonus they deserve
• Healing ward—absolutely absurd that it lost the upfront heal, you're basically dead if you get caught in execute range and you don't have a resto ult or LoS nearby. Takes too long for dark deal (let alone the delayed ward heal) to pop, especially when you're eating execute spam and can't get out of execute range

Minno

Joy_Division wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Nerf rapids so people can stop bitching about the speed nerf, for the love of god.

I can not agree that nerfing something else is the best way to get people to stop complaining about a previous nerf.

Then again, it might take less dev time to nerf rapids than redo all thatspeed nerfing.

Might as well make all of cyro hurt/slot steed mundas lol.

Sun7dance

Yes, please nerf shuffle and make heavy armour even stronger once again!
Currently there are not many reasons to run medium and with a shuffle nerf there would be no more!

Either shuffle needs a strong buff or change it with momentum. If momentum were the middle armour skill, there would be a tough decision for staminas running medium or heavy.

That is exactly what we need!

Btw:
Yes, templars and wardens suffer from the new evasion, but that is well deserved! Both have such an incredible healing, there just has to be a weak spot!

SkysOutThizeOut

There are threads complaining about AOEs dominating BGs... obviously not that many people want to or think major evasion is that strong. Every class needs a weakness. And for wardens and templars it’s okay that it’s major evasion. I don’t even see as many people running major evasion as before. The change to major evasion brought about more balance in my opinion because it forces you to make a choice with your damage output. This is the most balanced the game has felt all year. I’m upset about the changes to whip, but I’m not going to claim it’s destroying my class. If they claims of major evasion held truth we would see less wardens and less templars... but it has been the opposite.

Vapirko

ZOS if you’re going to gut shuffle, you have got to raise its snare immunity to at least 4 seconds. Medium armor is finally viable again for most classes and an alternative to heavy with the increased damage mitigation, barely. The snare immunity is still awful but at least we have some survivability. I could deal with the slightly decreases mitigation but we really need that snare immunity time. Also I do want to chime in and say as I’ve been maining stamplar for the past couple months, the shuffle change is not that bad. I would not say that jabs aren’t cutting it due to major evasion. If anything it’s that jabs are still very unreliable with even a little bit of lag which is pretty much always.

IAVITNI

Minno wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

What is your shield value with 3x arcane and shield value with something like 3x protective?
Include armor buffs too. I want to do a quick dirty calc using 4 situations (one 3x arcane, one 3x protective, one 3x fictitious crit resist, and one using one of each).

Not too sure what you're asking. Are you referring to effective shield value? Or just tooltip and character sheet values?

Just the values from a typical Sorc build.

Alter-Mage Mundus-Chudan-Shackle-Impregnable-0 into bastion-2 SD+1 Mag Regen Jewllery-Sharpened fb-defending back
3x Arcane-40k mag-9.3k Hardened Ward tooltip-20k resistance-frag tooltip-14.3k
3x protective-36.5k mag-8.3k Hardened Ward Tooltip-25.4k resistance-around 13k.5k

Resistances given are front bar, in purple gear. Heavy chest, medium helm. No weapon glyph proc.

Tooltip damage is important to consider as it increases the value of arcane.

In my experience, what the numbers won't show you is that around 20k resistance, impen begins to take on more value against crit based opponents, i.e. nightblades and templars. With 20k resistance, you can comfortably duel average crit builds. For outnumbered situations, you'd want to be closer to 25k. However, even at 25k, crits still tend to melt through shields, 20k is just insane in a duel without any mines/pet LoS cheese. With 20k resistances and 4.5k impen, shields feel just as strong as pre murkmire, even in a 1vx and performance in a duel is more consistent than 25k resistances.

Impen simply has a greater value for shields as it allows better prediction of when your shields will go down. Losing 3 arcane is still rough. IMO, every max mag bonus should be obtained as a mag sorc. It still provides the most returns.

Priority for mag sorc builds is still max mag, mitigation has moved to second, and sustain and damage are interchangeable based on playstyle/skill.

Hotdog_23

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Nerf rapids so people can stop bitching about the speed nerf, for the love of god.

Please no, coming from pve side.

FrancisCrawford

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Some good info in here. There is one point I strongly disagree on, and I’m disappointed that the class reps would make the statement “Shields feel strong in PvE”. They feel very weak, and the resistances from Light Armor barely affect them. Sorcerer has been almost unplayable this patch, and I’ve seen fewer and fewer of them around. I really only play my sorcerer main when nobody else in a group is willing to, and because one is needed for Minor Prophecy and Conduits.

Presumably that means you're casting your shield on cooldown despite its weakness, because of its secondary effect. So you KNOW how weak its primary effect is.