An argument for stamina healers

Aisle9

First, storytime:

Once upon a time there was a stamina warden specced as pure healer for small groups. This stamina warden healer would not go into trials, but rather stick to small groups (4ppl, dungeons/arenas).

Yes, of course he uses a bow, and yes, of course he can do some dps, but that's beside the point.

And before you ask, no, he's not a DD with vigor, and no, he doesn't use a restoration staff, that would be silly, magicka healers already do that.

But what about Combat Prayer ?

I'm glad you asked Jimmy, there is no Combat Prayer. The group loses Minor Berserk, but gains 30k group dps. Of course, the cool kids won't be losing anything, Najtblyats can get minor berserk, and wardens can too.


The idea is
a) Has to be able to throw orbs every 30s + an extra synergy (budding seeds) if the tank is running alkosh.
b) Has to be able to buff the group (Powerful Assault and War Machine). I want to be able to do that by using specific stamina sets, it's a stamina build after all.
c) Has to be able to contribute to group dps.
d) Has to be able to heal, both sustained and burst heal (duh), through the most demanding pieces of content without support.

It works, it's actually pretty amazing, I've been having a lot of fun. If the group has high damage, I can add mine on top of some pretty sweet buffage, if the group dps is low, I can add mine for some less painful experience, on top of providing orbs and heals as well. Everybody's happy.

I'm running a greatsword for sustain (HA) and Minor Heroism (Carve), and maestrom bow back bar for dem deeps (It just worksTM)

Echoing Vigor is a fairly powerful hot, with shrooms and trees to the rescue for burst, so... seems to be working right ?

Well, something has been bugging me, hard.

Really hard.

Olorime and Spell Power Cure both apply Major Courage (260 SP/WP).

Powerful Assault applies it's own buff, Powerful Assault, that could potentially stack with courage (awesome... right ?), but it only gives 160 and it only affects 4 people...

So, not only it gives 2/3 of their magicka counterparts, but it affects 2 people less...

I mean, it's not really a big deal, since I'm not going to take it into trials, and even if I was, Olorime is still better, I'd probably run Hircine or some other silly stamina set if I really wanted.

I understand the reason why, and I remember when off tanks would slot Powerful Assault, I understand why it needs to be nerfed a bit... but does it ?




Here's the question:

Would it be possible to make Powerful Assault affects 6 people, put it in line with SPC/Olorime and apply major courage, please and thank you ?

People are crying for diversity of builds, stamina healers are pretty diverse, and with all 3 sets applying Major Courage there's no risk of them stacking with each other....

Sheezabeast

This is a reasonable request

Acrolas

Wouldn't you just use Powered Olorime weapons and Olorime jewelry with Infused/Reduce Feat Cost?

Then pair it with something like Naga Shaman and slot Bone Shield?

Royaji

We tanks don't have much. Our BiS set is still from the base game. ZOS refuses to give us anything new to support our group. And you want to take one little unique thing we can bring to those laughbly easy dungeons that don't really even need a tank?

Aisle, you're making me sad.

Tasear

Instead of major courage this could be useful with one majicja+ stamina Healer. Or so my on surface thoughts

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

stamina healers...nice joke.

SilverIce58

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

stamina healers...nice joke.

Whats wrong with having stamina healers? We already have a couple heals that scale off of stamina.

pod88kk

An interesting idea but I think it might make stamina characters too powerful in pvp

ccfeeling

I've tried stamden healer a couple of weeks , it's still OK with solid group , good tank and dps in vet level .

But it's pretty hard to complete the DLC HM mode & vet trial HM , mag is too much easier lol .

There is too many limitation with stam build , whichever skills and buffs or sets .

DisgracefulMind

I feel like that ruins Powerful Assault for most of the population, though. The set has a unique buff, which is why it only applies to 4, versus a major buff. I'd actually hate to see another unique buff taken away.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

@SilverIce58

pod88kk wrote: »

An interesting idea but I think it might make stamina characters too powerful in pvp

this...also the lack of a solid burst heal like BoL and the warden one I forgot its name...besides that's exactly what we need in pvp...stamblades with BoL that scales off stamina thx il never ask for more if I get that.

TheGreatBlackBear

Stan healing would be as redundant is magic healing in dungeons in particular. The healing (not buffing) role needs to be given greater importance through meaningful combat changes before we go about expanding the types of healers we have. Otherwise your stam healer will be outdone in terms of group utility by any random DD spamming vigor.

Aisle9

pod88kk wrote: »

An interesting idea but I think it might make stamina characters too powerful in pvp

Right now they stack, so you would already benefit from Major Courage + Powerful Assault. If anything that would be a nerf.

Acrolas wrote: »

Wouldn't you just use Powered Olorime weapons and Olorime jewelry with Infused/Reduce Feat Cost?

Then pair it with something like Naga Shaman and slot Bone Shield?

Aaaaand you missed the part where I'd rather use a stamina set, than a magicka set on a stamina toon. I'm not even complaining about the lack of stamina sets, this one already exists...

Royaji wrote: »

We tanks don't have much. Our BiS set is still from the base game. ZOS refuses to give us anything new to support our group. And you want to take one little unique thing we can bring to those laughbly easy dungeons that don't really even need a tank?

Aisle, you're making me sad.

We're discussing this in private

pod88kk wrote: »

An interesting idea but I think it might make stamina characters too powerful in pvp

You already heal with stamina in PvP. Making PA affect 6 people rather than 4 would only make it more reliable and easier to control in PvE. In PvP would change very little, as it's not an argument for more healing.

We already have all the tools to do so in PvP.

In BGs you only have 4 people, so it would change absolutely nothing. In open world it's only a thing in small scale, and ballgroups (trains) that use PA would be shafted by it not stacking with SPC (so it would be a nerf, not a buff).

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

SilverIce58

pod88kk wrote: »

An interesting idea but I think it might make stamina characters too powerful in pvp

this...also the lack of a solid burst heal like BoL and the warden one I forgot its name...besides that's exactly what we need in pvp...stamblades with BoL that scales off stamina thx il never ask for more if I get that.

1) Shrooms = aoe Bol
2) NBs with BoL would just be silly when you can vigor/cloak.
3) Sorcs, Wardens and DKs already have a BoL-like ability... that's 4 classes out of 5
4) You don't really need BoL ...
5) Shrooms scales off magicka OR stamina, depending on the morph

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I feel like that ruins Powerful Assault for most of the population, though. The set has a unique buff, which is why it only applies to 4, versus a major buff. I'd actually hate to see another unique buff taken away.

Most of the population doesn't use PA, as it is now it's kind of a niche set as most content doesn't require and OT anymore.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

stamina healers...nice joke.

Nobody is laughing, so... if it was, I guess I failed.

ccfeeling wrote: »

I've tried stamden healer a couple of weeks , it's still OK with solid group , good tank and dps in vet level .

But it's pretty hard to complete the DLC HM mode & vet trial HM , mag is too much easier lol .

There is too many limitation with stam build , whichever skills and buffs or sets .

Healed vFH HM with it, vCoS HM, vMHK HM, and got my vRoM skin with it. It's a fairly recent build, so I haven't got around to heal all of them yet.

As for trials, try reading the second sentence of the first paragraph, this thread is pointing exactly that, the limitation in sets. Skills, there are none.

Not all classes are 100% viable, sure I can get behind that.

Tasear wrote: »

Instead of major courage this could be useful with one majicja+ stamina Healer. Or so my on surface thoughts

I have no issue with it being a unique buff, that would be an even more powerful argument for stamina healers, but I feel like it wouldn't fly.

As DDs, we're leaving the light of the gods more and more, towards burning every single piece of content through sheer use of higher numbers...

which I think was the reason it is as it is, so probably wouldn't be the best idea..?

I don't know, the only thing that bugs me is that vigor affects 6ppl, while PA only 4, so it's literally impossible to control, but rather RNG. Turns out I was wrong about this one.

I wouldn't be opposed to it being a unique buff, as long as it's streamlined with the others (affecting 6 ppl).

Lisutaris

Powerful Assault needs a buff, yup that is for sure.

But you sound like a bow stam dps with vigor .... with a lot of support stuff going on

Aisle9

Lisutaris wrote: »

Powerful Assault needs a buff, yup that is for sure.

But you sound like a bow stam dps with vigor .... with a lot of support stuff going on

How do you call a magicka templar with blockade of storms, shards, power of the light and ritual of retribution ?

I call it a magicka dps with a resto staff and a lot of support going on.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just saying that the framing of an argument is important.

A healer's main concern is to provide:
a) Healing, both sustained and burst
b) Synergies to proc Alkosh
c) Synergies for resources management
d) Buff to allies
e) Debuff to enemies.

As long as you can provide all of the above, the rest you can safely put in damage with no adverse results.

Lisutaris

Aisle9 wrote: »

A healer's main concern is to provide:
a) Healing, both sustained and burst
b) Synergies to proc Alkosh
c) Synergies for resources management
d) Buff to allies
e) Debuff to enemies.

As long as you can provide all of the above, the rest you can safely put in damage with no adverse results.

Mh, yea I agree on that. But I would say the Alkosh part ... does not need additional input. In most scenarios there are enough synergies to use. Also ressource management is nice ... but if the DD can't function without it ... "meh" not a huge fun of that
But to be honest ... I have also a rotation for full support and max dmg possible and also my "plan b" for medicore/non existant support without loosing too much DPS. [DD POV]
The list is for the more professional trial grps or 4 ppl vet hm stuff, where min/maxing is life. For activities with random ppl I would switch b+c with d+e in terms of priority.

Well, *thumbs up*. I like it when a healer can deal some additional damage without loosing anything. Same for tanks
Way more useful than those 4x DD or 3x DD and something groups xD

Aisle9

Lisutaris wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

A healer's main concern is to provide:
a) Healing, both sustained and burst
b) Synergies to proc Alkosh
c) Synergies for resources management
d) Buff to allies
e) Debuff to enemies.

As long as you can provide all of the above, the rest you can safely put in damage with no adverse results.

Mh, yea I agree on that. But I would say the Alkosh part ... does not need additional input. In most scenarios there are enough synergies to use. Also ressource management is nice ... but if the DD can't function without it ... "meh" not a huge fun of that
But to be honest ... I have also a rotation for full support and max dmg possible and also my "plan b" for medicore/non existant support without loosing too much DPS. [DD POV]
The list is for the more professional trial grps or 4 ppl vet hm stuff, where min/maxing is life. For activities with random ppl I would switch b+c with d+e in terms of priority.

Well, *thumbs up*. I like it when a healer can deal some additional damage without loosing anything. Same for tanks
Way more useful than those 4x DD or 3x DD and something groups xD

The healer provides the main way to proc Alkosh.

Synergies from the group can be nonexistant, for instance if the group is running any combination of stamblades/magblades, stamDKs/MagDKs, Stamsorcs or Stamplars. Generally, as a tank, you shouldn't be expecting any synergy from stam builds.

Only Sorcs and Temps have a class synergy, and in the Temp's case, shards shares the CD with Orbs, so it doens't even count, and ritual is not the first choice for a magplar dps.

Maximum uptime for Alkosh is 3 procs every 30s, and that only happens in one of 2 situations:

1)Warden throwing Orbs and Budding Seeds, while a you have a Magsorc throwing liquid lightning.

2)Templar throwing orbs/shard, putting down ritual, and you have a Magsorc for Liquid Lightning.

There's an extremely low chance to get a pug as such.

That's the reason why making sure the tank can proc Alkosh is usually the healer's job.

Resource management can be crucial for a tank in some instances, and you really don't want the tank running out of stamina. As for the DDs, any poor fool still running Moondancer kinda needs them to proc it.

Juhasow

Inb4 Powerfull Assault being changed to major courage.

Slack

Nice, I love such oddball builds, especially when they work

Kel

A friend of mine has been running a warden stam healer for quite awhile. He constantly has over a million healing.
I realize PvP and PvE are quite different, but this shows that stam healing can be effective.

https://youtu.be/mylZh3D0PoE

josiahva

I have a stamina warden healer I have been leveling, its really fun to play and capable of great burst damage. The key with a stamina healer is that everyone needs to stay closer together since distance heals are limited and because of that the healer needs to have better situational awareness and an ability to handle melee-range combat.

P.S. you can still run a resto staff backbar when needed for weakness to elements, though it reduces DPS, it can be handy sometimes...not to mention staves in stamina sets are always dirt cheap

Acrolas

Aisle9 wrote: »

Aaaaand you missed the part where I'd rather use a stamina set, than a magicka set on a stamina toon. I'm not even complaining about the lack of stamina sets, this one already exists...

You can craft Naga Shaman in any weight, and it gives you +4% Healing Taken, 2% Healing Done, plus Minor Mending and Minor Vitality when you cast a damage shield.

Olorime gives you a constant Minor Aegis, which Powerful Assault does not and would never have. I'd take the reliable extra 5% endgame damage on top of my LA and HA rather than the Major Slayer that War Machine would occasionally give.

I didn't miss anything. I'm focusing on the healing/damage prevention part while you're focusing on one set that offers support, not healing. What else are you going to possibly use to proc Powerful Assault? Caltrops? Why would a stamina healer use any other Assault ability other than the healing one? But I don't want a stamina healer that spams Vigor. Any tank or damage dealer can spam Vigor when the healer is falling short.

But all that aside, there's absolutely no reason to change Powerful Assault. It was designed as a PVP set acquired in PVP content and nothing is indicating that the set needs to be more powerful in PVP.

DivineFirstYOLO

Last time I tested PA with friends it was bugged - it was always the same 4 people who got the buff. Imagine 2 tanks and 2 healer getting the buff all the time while the rest of the group won't get it at all. They should fix that first..

ccmedaddy

Agreed. If they made it grant Major Courage I would consider using it as a backbar set for my stam PvP chars.

Colecovision

How about giving us 2 stam morphs on the resto staff? I'll finally get to use that bone pirates powerd resto staff has been with a mule for over a year.

Juhasow

Colecovision wrote: »

How about giving us 2 stam morphs on the resto staff? I'll finally get to use that bone pirates powerd resto staff has been with a mule for over a year.

How about no ?

Colecovision

Juhasow wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

How about giving us 2 stam morphs on the resto staff? I'll finally get to use that bone pirates powerd resto staff has been with a mule for over a year.

How about no ?

I'm pretty sure they're going with your plan.

But to be fair, I'm totally willing to trade for 2 magic morphs on dw and get mele mag in the mix. It's a win win imo.

idk

While I am not against the idea of providing a stam set that provides the courage buff I am against the idea of homogenizing aspects of the game.
'
Yes, I know Zos does not agree with me on this since they have been homogenizing the game for more than two years.

Further, if we are getting to the point that we know want stam and magicka versions of characters to be have acess to the same healing skills and create stam versions of rStaff skills than I question why the person how healing with stam. If they really to heal vs *** a niche PvP builds then they should consider a magicka build.

I do not think it is a wise to try to duplicate everything for both resource pools. If we are doing that we might as well get rid of half the flavor of this game and have everything scale off one resource pool, which is not a great idea.

SodanTok

No need. ZoS should just add Major Courage set that is medium with stam bonuses instead of adding random useless proc sets every patch nobody wants. There have been very few good medium armor sets released since like... One Tamriel? Sure, Major Courage medium set wouldnt be something big either, but it would be niche enabling set (kinda like pelinal is) and very important for that niche.

While most of the medium sets are literally useless for anybody.

FrancisCrawford

josiahva wrote: »

P.S. you can still run a resto staff backbar when needed for weakness to elements,

Not exactly the way I would have phrased it.

But yes, an obvious concern with a stamina healer is where magicka steal comes from. The three sources I can think of are:
-- Elemental Drain (that morph only).
-- A morph of the resto Siphon, which nobody uses.
-- Radiant Aura, which only a magplar would conceivably use, and even then who wants to give up the option of occasionally slotting Repentance, now that it's fun again?

AlienatedGoat

I used to have a stamina bow healer. Had some good times with her.

Only ever ran her with friends though. Anytime I tried running in PUGs she'd get yelled at, called names, kicked, etc.

PUGs have a very low tolerance level for off meta builds.