I hear there is talk of "changing" passives?

Oberstein

You heard right then.

zaria

oxygen_thief wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

The goal is to balance the races so that there isn't quite such a staggering difference between them for certain class/role combinations.

why have different races if they are all the same? its really stupid

Problem is that racial differences in ESO is around 10x stronger than in Morrowind and Oblivion because its an focus on +10% on stats at high level rater than an starting bonus like in the old games.
In ESO an level 1 Orc and Altmer has the same stats, in the old game it was an huge impact then you started but most of it faded away as you leveled up skills and attributes and got better gear.

Qbiken

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

From the dev comment they're looking at ways to ensure that all the racial passives work to allow any race to effectively fill any class/roll. So in this instance, I don't think it will be as simple as nerf or buff.

Well, that´s already the case so not sure what you´re on about tbh

Mureel

Tasear wrote: »

Yes you can see public notice about incoming changes. Though instead of believing in nerfs consider thinking in terms of balance when thinking about future patches.

lol xD

ezio45

Nestor wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

This pretty much confirms racials will be nerfed instead of the weaker ones being buffed. RIP Argonians, Redguards, possibly High Elves, and Orcs(pvp).

This has been said about every class, every race, every skill and every passive since this game was in Beta. And, here we are 5 plus years later, playing the same classes, races and skills as we were before.

apparently im in the minority these days but i like playing the same race, class and skills as before. If i didnt i would main one of me other characters.

ezio45

Again I dont see this having a good outcome. If darkelf, redguard, argonian or highelf are nerfed. Zos can expect a negative public reaction

webrgesner

Tasear wrote: »

Yes you can see public notice about incoming changes. Though instead of believing in nerfs consider thinking in terms of balance when thinking about future patches.

"balance" is nerfing. When instead they should buff the other classes/skill/or passives they just nerf

Olupajmibanan

If they don't give us free race change tokens, it is just another cash grab. Doesn't matter if they buff or nerf racials.

John_Falstaff

Qbiken wrote: »

Well, that´s already the case so not sure what you´re on about tbh

Fill, yes. Effectively, no. If a khajiit wants to play magicka damage, it's ~300 effective spell damage penalty compared to an altmer (and that's not even counting elemental damage bonus). That's a hefty nerf to impose on oneself just for wanting to keep your tail and whiskers. And same for many other combinations, too.

JKorr

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

If they don't give us free race change tokens, it is just another cash grab. Doesn't matter if they buff or nerf racials.

You do realize that, for a large number of players, the ones who aren't desperately changing their characters to get that last .000001% damage/sustain/whatever, there won't be any OMG I HAVE TO CHANGE RACE IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! moment? The people who aren't rabidly competitive and play the game for enjoyment, fun, and relaxation aren't going to be lining up outside ZOS offices with pitchforks and torches because they totally destroyed the game/world/universe. People will play the game as long as they are having fun and enjoying the game. When it isn't fun any longer, they won't. Everyone has personal preferences about what that point is.

IndorilArwynLlethran

If it means no more necessary to play an argonian or redguard, than ok. But I'm slightly concerned.

Jeremy

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Just leave the game alone. People who want to play Nord; for example, I mean are REALLY itching to play a Nord are really good players just trying to prove they can play ANYTHING or really bad, casual players who won’t notice the difference because they can’t play ANYTHING well.

Look Eso would be a far better game if ZOS focused on fixing the actual broken things in the game like the stuck in combat bug and performance in general and stop “fiddling” with the game because someone at ZOS has a “vision” about how the game should be.

Shouldn’t great performance and the elimination of game breaking bugs be some part of ZOS’s “vision” of ESO?

I tend to agree.

All they do is make the game less interesting to play when they go nerf-happy to try and create "balance" anyway. You could make everyone have the same race/class/abilities and the game would certainly be "balanced" as a result. It would also be boring and ruin what makes MMORPG's fun to begin with; which is to say utilizing the strengths and weaknesses of different characters and builds and the variety of play that brings to the table.

richo262

Just buff the Nord, and weaken the Argonian potion passive slightly.

Elwendryll

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

I’m guessing many of you will be interested to know more about the racial balance changes. While we aren’t ready to share specific details yet, here’s a peek at the goals driving the team’s effort:

• When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role.
• The combat power provided by each race should be more equalized.
• Players should feel a stronger sense of power progression through racial passives as they level up.
• The unique feeling and flavor each race provides should be retained and enhanced where possible, and remain faithful to established lore.

I'm afraid that the bolded part means that several races should be viable for each specific role, and not that every race should be viable for every role.

Qbiken

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Well, that´s already the case so not sure what you´re on about tbh

Fill, yes. Effectively, no. If a khajiit wants to play magicka damage, it's ~300 effective spell damage penalty compared to an altmer (and that's not even counting elemental damage bonus). That's a hefty nerf to impose on oneself just for wanting to keep your tail and whiskers. And same for many other combinations, too.

You can efficiently do any role with any class/race combination in the game without doubt. There´re multiple examples of that. If you want to play magicka DD role as a Khajiit then go for it. You don´t need to min/max in order to complete any content in the game. And when I mean ANY content, I literally mean ANY content.

However, when you enter a competitive scene (aka pushing for high scores in trials for example) then min/maxing becomes important. And even here you don´t necessarily need to have the "BiS-race" to be competitive. If you want to play something that isn´t "meta" or "BiS" then that´s fine, but don´t expect the competitive part of the community to accept your "off-meta" if they´ve a different goal than you.

If the only argument to nerf/change/rebalance certain races is that some people want to keep their "role-play factor" while still being competitive then it´s not a good argument imo. Certain races should be better than others on different roles/aspects of the game.

Bam_Bam

How about people just wait and see how things pan out?

If the new changes are rubbish then yeah, kick and scream.

But otherwise, belt up, get a grip and wait and see.

mxxo

Qbiken wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Well, that´s already the case so not sure what you´re on about tbh

Fill, yes. Effectively, no. If a khajiit wants to play magicka damage, it's ~300 effective spell damage penalty compared to an altmer (and that's not even counting elemental damage bonus). That's a hefty nerf to impose on oneself just for wanting to keep your tail and whiskers. And same for many other combinations, too.

You can efficiently do any role with any class/race combination in the game without doubt. There´re multiple examples of that. If you want to play magicka DD role as a Khajiit then go for it. You don´t need to min/max in order to complete any content in the game. And when I mean ANY content, I literally mean ANY content.

However, when you enter a competitive scene (aka pushing for high scores in trials for example) then min/maxing becomes important. And even here you don´t necessarily need to have the "BiS-race" to be competitive. If you want to play something that isn´t "meta" or "BiS" then that´s fine, but don´t expect the competitive part of the community to accept your "off-meta" if they´ve a different goal than you.

If the only argument to nerf/change/rebalance certain races is that some people want to keep their "role-play factor" while still being competitive then it´s not a good argument imo. Certain races should be better than others on different roles/aspects of the game.

I feel a clear difference between my bosmer & my breton healer. I think you are downplaying it a bit.

John_Falstaff

@Qbiken , you're really downplaying it. The difference in passives is very significant, and you're also neglecting the fact that there'll always be peer pressure in the game with competitive element built-in. Sure, there'll always be meta-minded people who'll tell you that you play trash race for your role, but the problem is, right now, with a difference of 300 SD and elemental bonus, those people would be absolutely correct.

And I disagree about competitiveness and RP. We're playing MMORPG, so the game must balance both MMO and RPG elements. Which means people should be able to play their favorite race while also not feeling pressure from the competitive side of things. Single-player game can afford having 'inferior' races, multiplayer can't get away with it as easily.

So yes. If in an RPG game, people feel that absence of racial stat differences make all races the same, then they're playing wrong game. Immerse a little and you'll see that having a tail or scales or pointy ears is enough to make races different. Immersion shouldn't be coming from numbers in character sheet.

Jeremy

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Qbiken , you're really downplaying it. The difference in passives is very significant, and you're also neglecting the fact that there'll always be peer pressure in the game with competitive element built-in. Sure, there'll always be meta-minded people who'll tell you that you play trash race for your role, but the problem is, right now, with a difference of 300 SD and elemental bonus, those people would be absolutely correct.

And I disagree about competitiveness and RP. We're playing MMORPG, so the game must balance both MMO and RPG elements. Which means people should be able to play their favorite race while also not feeling pressure from the competitive side of things. Single-player game can afford having 'inferior' races, multiplayer can't get away with it as easily.

So yes. If in an RPG game, people feel that absence of racial stat differences make all races the same, then they're playing wrong game. Immerse a little and you'll see that having a tail or scales or pointy ears is enough to make races different. Immersion shouldn't be coming from numbers in character sheet.

Meh.

I believe this is mostly a manufactured problem brought on by peer pressure and tyrannical guild leaders.

It's very hard for me to believe racial passives can make or break a character. The differences are significant, but not anything major. In PvP I have never noticed a certain race giving me more problems than another.

That being said: I don't really have a problem with them allowing races to overcome their racial weakness through training passives or what-ever it is they are planning. But I would still prefer they focus on real problems, because this game has plenty of those. This obsession to make everything "balanced" is really taking its toll on the game's quality and seems to be directing their attention away from aspects of the game that matter a lot more.

Synthwavius

Azyle1 wrote: »

So.. we can hope that redgaurd is nerfed then? Such a boring race.

I also assume this means Dark Elf and Argonians will be nerfed. Don't try to say they will just buff other things.. cause you know that ain't happening.

You can nerf Redguards all the way but they will still win every beauty contest

Numerikuu

Tasear wrote: »

Yes you can see public notice about incoming changes. Though instead of believing in nerfs consider thinking in terms of balance when thinking about future patches.

Instead of looking at it as a pile of ***, view it instead as a pile of gold 8)

That comment only leaves me more concerned for what's to come, especially after the shield nerf. The community has negative zero faith that the balance and stability they seek for this game will be achieved. Instead of bringing up the least used races to the same standards as the most used, they'll probably nerf everything to something worse than the Nord passives.

Then again it wouldn't surprise me. Zeni/Beth keep kneecapping themselves as of late.

John_Falstaff

@Jeremy , well, the facts are in front of your eyes - you be the judge. SD and max stat are both present in spell power calculation formula, and with 30k base max magicka, altmers get an equivalent of 300 extra SD. Plus elemental bonus, too - think of it as of being given a Law of Julianos 4+5pc bonuses on top of what you're already wearing. It is major for anything more than overland questing and normal mode dungeons.

It's a real problem too, it gives actual solid ground to toxic endgame raiding community. It's unpleasant when someone's putting pressure on new people; but it's absolutely the worst when that someone also has a valid point while doing it. Sure, there are other urgent matters (ahem, guild roster hogging 20% of CPU time), but the game's chock full of urgent matters, they're all important.

Jeremy

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Jeremy , well, the facts are in front of your eyes - you be the judge. SD and max stat are both present in spell power calculation formula, and with 30k base max magicka, altmers get an equivalent of 300 extra SD. Plus elemental bonus, too - think of it as of being given a Law of Julianos 4+5pc bonuses on top of what you're already wearing. It is major for anything more than overland questing and normal mode dungeons.

It's a real problem too, it gives actual solid ground to toxic endgame raiding community. It's unpleasant when someone's putting pressure on new people; but it's absolutely the worst when that someone also has a valid point while doing it. Sure, there are other urgent matters (ahem, guild roster hogging 20% of CPU time), but the game's chock full of urgent matters, they're all important.

If it wasn't this it would be something else. Those "toxic endgame raiding communities" are always going to find something to look down on other players with. So I think it's pointless to try and appease those kind of people. It would be better to tell them where to put it and just let them wallow in the misery of their own company.

I do veteran content all the time and I've never been unable to win a fight because one of our damage-dealers didn't have pointy ears or a tail. That's why I say it's mostly just a manufactured problem born of this false notion that everyone needs to be able to do "the most damage possible per second" so they can compare epeens with one another.

Why?

So long as they can get the job done, I don't really see the issue.

Jaraal

Bam_Bam wrote: »

How about people just wait and see how things pan out?

Because they have a track record of swatting flies with a sledgehammer. Past performance is indeed an indicator of future results.

John_Falstaff

@Jeremy , the issue is, "I do veteran content all the time and I've never been unable to win a fight because one of our damage-dealers didn't have pointy ears or a tail" is an anecdotal evidence, and you can't see performance averaged over many runs. Wipes attributed to one things, victories - to others, and if you run with pugs, then seeing the difference is even harder behind vast fluctuations of skill. Same with "In PvP I have never noticed a certain race giving me more problems than another." - I have troubles imagining that an argonian with a permablocking heavy bleed build running three infused potion cooldown reduction will give you less problems than a bosmer in same place, but I can easily imagine that, spread out over time and subject to random variations, the differences fail to leave a trace in one's mind.

And well, in the end of the day, if "as long as they get the job done" is all that matters as you say, then isn't it better to remove the apple of discord and eradicate the racial passives altogether. Real RP people don't need them, they have enough imagination not to rely on crutches in character sheet. Normal players who want to get job done don't pay mind to them and just clear content. Toxic endgame community uses them to segregate players. So, if that's the case... can just purge them, yes? Win-win. ^^

Jeremy

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Jeremy , the issue is, "I do veteran content all the time and I've never been unable to win a fight because one of our damage-dealers didn't have pointy ears or a tail" is an anecdotal evidence, and you can't see performance averaged over many runs. Wipes attributed to one things, victories - to others, and if you run with pugs, then seeing the difference is even harder behind vast fluctuations of skill. Same with "In PvP I have never noticed a certain race giving me more problems than another." - I have troubles imagining that an argonian with a permablocking heavy bleed build running three infused potion cooldown reduction will give you less problems than a bosmer in same place, but I can easily imagine that, spread out over time and subject to random variations, the differences fail to leave a trace in one's mind.

And well, in the end of the day, if "as long as they get the job done" is all that matters as you say, then isn't it better to remove the apple of discord and eradicate the racial passives altogether. Real RP people don't need them, they have enough imagination not to rely on crutches in character sheet. Normal players who want to get job done don't pay mind to them and just clear content. Toxic endgame community uses them to segregate players. So, if that's the case... can just purge them, yes? Win-win. ^^

My point was if you have to look to long-term averages over a course of many runs on a number chart to identify these discrepancies then they obviously aren't substantial character-breaking disadvantages.

I'm not saying these differences don't exist. I'll happily concede a High Elf sorcerer can do more damage than a Nord sorcerer. What I'm suggesting to you is, so what? The nord would also has more health and stamina - which should come in handy in some situations.

So long as both characters are capable of performing well enough to complete the content I don't see what the issue is. Where does this idea that all characters must be able to do reach the same damage threshold even come from? This is the kind of thinking that leads to the the kind of shallow combat games like FF 14 have - where every DPS class is basically just a different-set of animations that do same amount of damage, each spamming the same boring rotation over and over for maximum DPS.

I believe we need to move away from this idea that every class and character needs to be able to do the same amount of damage. It has done nothing but harm this genre. It's also what drove the support class into non-existence, because these "toxic endgame communities" shunned them because they did not do as much damage. So these types of players have done enough damage to the genre already. I have no interest in placating them further.

What makes MMO's interesting is a diversity of builds and classes, each possessing their own sets of strengths and weaknesses. It's not about "RP" really. It's about variety and players being able to create builds that are unique and interesting. It's about the game play itself. And these supposed "hardcore raiders" who obsess over number charts and balance have been proven time and time again to be such a tiny slither of the community they aren't worth mollifying in my opinion. Just ignore them. Let them have their supposed "meta-builds" while they get off on pretending they are better than everyone else because they have a higher "DPS" on some silly chart. Because anyone who actually does that or looks down on others over DPS on a damn video game obviously have such an insecure existence they need all the help they can get anyway. Plus, it's kind of funny watching them to make such a big deal over nothing. So there is some real entertainment value there.

John_Falstaff

@Jeremy , well, that was my response to your "so what?". If one race doing more damage than another is "so what?", then, well - let us get rid of racial passives altogether. No racials - so what? ^^ No more catalyst for toxic disputes about which race does more damage, everyone wins.

And I think that it's a misconception that uniqueness of builds has to stem from differences in stat numbers. I strongly feel that racial passives shouldn't be a factor in what makes a build fun (or not fun). There are many more ways of making really engaging builds which don't involve making a tradeoff between own identity - the preferred race - and having good time making build better.

Also, I totally can get behind the advice of ignoring the meta-minded community, but for one, the game is competitive, it has leaderboards, and every now and then all those khajiit mages out there want to believe they're capable of getting top scores while staying, well, khajiits. Even if someone isn't running for scores, it doesn't matter; what matters is the all-permeating feeling that if one chooses such-and-such race, then they're handicapped by birthright and won't be able to reach the absolute heights - not now, but maybe in future, theoretically; it's the sense of possibility that matters. For another, can't get rid of such advice. Newbie gets into guild, and there'll be always atmosphere of meta races and builds and everything, and newbies are bound to feel themselves inferior because even if someone tells them "play however you enjoy most" (and I happen to tell that to people now and again), then that someone won't be able to make a strong argument against others who says that this race performs better. Because, well. It does perform better, and newbie will inevitably feel inferior. It's nowhere near a healthy state of things, and no way to escape it.

laereal

Jeez @Jeremy you're the proof that it isn't only toxic endgame players that are condescending snobs.

Jeremy

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Jeremy , well, that was my response to your "so what?". If one race doing more damage than another is "so what?", then, well - let us get rid of racial passives altogether. No racials - so what? ^^ No more catalyst for toxic disputes about which race does more damage, everyone wins.

And I think that it's a misconception that uniqueness of builds has to stem from differences in stat numbers. I strongly feel that racial passives shouldn't be a factor in what makes a build fun (or not fun). There are many more ways of making really engaging builds which don't involve making a tradeoff between own identity - the preferred race - and having good time making build better.

Also, I totally can get behind the advice of ignoring the meta-minded community, but for one, the game is competitive, it has leaderboards, and every now and then all those khajiit mages out there want to believe they're capable of getting top scores while staying, well, khajiits. Even if someone isn't running for scores, it doesn't matter; what matters is the all-permeating feeling that if one chooses such-and-such race, then they're handicapped by birthright and won't be able to reach the absolute heights - not now, but maybe in future, theoretically; it's the sense of possibility that matters. For another, can't get rid of such advice. Newbie gets into guild, and there'll be always atmosphere of meta races and builds and everything, and newbies are bound to feel themselves inferior because even if someone tells them "play however you enjoy most" (and I happen to tell that to people now and again), then that someone won't be able to make a strong argument against others who says that this race performs better. Because, well. It does perform better, and newbie will inevitably feel inferior. It's nowhere near a healthy state of things, and no way to escape it.

And what percent of the people who play this game actually care about the leader boards?

I would be surprised if it was 1%.

Anyway, if they want to diversify the racial passives I don't really have an issue with it so long as it keeps in place distinctive passives individual to the player. Though it makes little sense to call them "racial passives" if they are no longer going to be racial...

I just don't feel this was a problem to begin with, and doesn't merit any concern. Your argument that they serve as a catalyst for "toxic disputes" I don't find persuasive because I have experience with these kinds of players. If it wasn't the person's race then it would be something else. I still remember these players freaking out and going crazy because I didn't use Repentance on my healer...

In short: these types of players are going to have a problem with you unless you play exactly as they think you you should. So unless you are prepared to let them to tell you how to play your character you're always going to have these toxic disputes. These racial changes aren't going to make any difference.

Jeremy

laereal wrote: »

Jeez @Jeremy you're the proof that it isn't only toxic endgame players that are condescending snobs.

Well I won't deny i have nothing but contempt for arrogant players who lord their make-believe superiority over others on a video game over DPS numbers.

So I am guilty of that. Yes. But that hardly makes me a snob - any more than someone beating the crap out of a bully makes them a bully.

I should also warn you that this forum is pretty strict and name-calling directed at individual posters isn't allowed. So you may want to delete your post before you get a warning or something.