Time Stop and Permafrost: destroyers of fun

Solariken

I think it's time we rally together and make a bunch of noise about removing the snares from both of these abilities. Nothing is less fun than not being able to move, especially when the snare area is the size of a football field. The massive AOE stuns are plenty strong enough. I could write up a wall of text detailing why these skills are problematic but anyone who plays BG's has a thorough understanding.

Keep the snare on Northern Storm if you want but remove it from Permafrost. Likewise, keep the snare on Borrowed Time but remove it from Time Freeze.

Who's with me!?

caeliusstarbreaker

Every game I’ve played where they introduce time manipulation... they have jumped the shark.

But yea snares suck.

CatchMeTrolling

That would just make northern storm go extinct, the stun is the reason people use it.

Edit : obviously meant permafrost, the other one is already non existent.

wheem_ESO

I'd much rather eat Permafrost than a Dawnbreaker bomb.

LeHarrt91

But Permafrost is a 200 cost Ultimate that doesn't do a great deal of damage, sure reduce the snare % but don't remove it.

WuffyCerulei

Permafrost is an ulti, so keeping the snare on it shouldn’t be an issue compared to Time Stop. However, it seriously needs a big ole telegraph so you know it’s coming.

LeHarrt91

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Permafrost is an ulti, so keeping the snare on it shouldn’t be an issue compared to Time Stop. However, it seriously needs a big ole telegraph so you know it’s coming.

Yeah i am quite surprise it doesn't have a telegraph like Eye of the Storm.

Joy_Division

Don;t people already use Borrowed Time though? I hate cast-times as much as the next person, but that heal dubuff is strong.

Solariken

Joy_Division wrote: »

Don;t people already use Borrowed Time though? I hate cast-times as much as the next person, but that heal dubuff is strong.

That morph is probably more popular in open world. In BGs though it's Time Freeze, over and over and over again. Good luck landing any skill combos or getting away from the dogpile of spintards with a healbot spamming this on you.

technohic

wheem_ESO wrote: »

I'd much rather eat Permafrost than a Dawnbreaker bomb.

Why not both?

brandonv516

Equip Balorgh set.
Save ultimate to 500.
Cast Permafrost.
Check the forums.

LeHarrt91

brandonv516 wrote: »

Equip Balorgh set.
Save ultimate to 500.
Cast Permafrost.
Check the forums.

Y u spilling d secrets lol

Vapirko

Time stop definitely needs adjustment. 5k points of healing negated is a lot in PvP. The size of the AOE on both is just crazy. That ability is arguably on par with negate. It's just way too much for a skill. Probably a big size reduction would be a good way to start.

Permafrost idk. I hate it but it is an ultimate. It has a high cost but the wardens ability to generate ultimate definitely negates some of that cost. The only thing we can really compare it to is EOTS, which of course is high damage but doesn't have a snare unless you use an ice staff which isn't a good choice for anyone except wardens really. There are also so few good magicka ults, I don't want to take things away from Magicka Wardens. But if you look at permafrost: damage, snare, major protection, and then a stun after 3 ticks. EOTS: just damage + effect from staff. Also EOTS is 250 ultimate vs Permafrost at 200. EOTS is also 2 meters smaller, and 1 second shorter.

The name of the game in PvP these days is AOE snare + AOE damage, its really effective, extremely cheesy and because of the mobility nerfs, counter play is very low especially on medium and light armor builds which need it the most. Something definitely isn't right.

LeHarrt91

Vapirko wrote: »

Time stop definitely needs adjustment. 5k points of healing negated is a lot in PvP. The size of the AOE on both is just crazy. That ability is arguably on par with negate. It's just way too much for a skill. Probably a big size reduction would be a good way to start.

Permafrost idk. I hate it but it is an ultimate. It has a high cost but the wardens ability to generate ultimate definitely negates some of that cost. The only thing we can really compare it to is EOTS, which of course is high damage but doesn't have a snare unless you use an ice staff which isn't a good choice for anyone except wardens really. There are also so few good magicka ults, I don't want to take things away from Magicka Wardens. But if you look at permafrost: damage, snare, major protection, and then a stun after 3 ticks. EOTS: just damage + effect from staff. Also EOTS is 250 ultimate vs Permafrost at 200. EOTS is also 2 meters smaller, and 1 second shorter.

The name of the game in PvP these days is AOE snare + AOE damage, its really effective, extremely cheesy and because of the mobility nerfs, counter play is very low especially on medium and light armor builds which need it the most. Something definitely isn't right.

I agree with Time Stop and the fact that it can snare and stun players on different levels.

And perma is a difficult one, yes it has a lot of utility but i feel its most effective on Spin to Win builds with the execute from Steel Tornado and DW passives... which is a whole other story. Maybe Perma can have its snare reduced to 30%. But by itself Perma is fine, when coupled with strong abilities/ sets its powerful.

Vapirko

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Time stop definitely needs adjustment. 5k points of healing negated is a lot in PvP. The size of the AOE on both is just crazy. That ability is arguably on par with negate. It's just way too much for a skill. Probably a big size reduction would be a good way to start.

Permafrost idk. I hate it but it is an ultimate. It has a high cost but the wardens ability to generate ultimate definitely negates some of that cost. The only thing we can really compare it to is EOTS, which of course is high damage but doesn't have a snare unless you use an ice staff which isn't a good choice for anyone except wardens really. There are also so few good magicka ults, I don't want to take things away from Magicka Wardens. But if you look at permafrost: damage, snare, major protection, and then a stun after 3 ticks. EOTS: just damage + effect from staff. Also EOTS is 250 ultimate vs Permafrost at 200. EOTS is also 2 meters smaller, and 1 second shorter.

The name of the game in PvP these days is AOE snare + AOE damage, its really effective, extremely cheesy and because of the mobility nerfs, counter play is very low especially on medium and light armor builds which need it the most. Something definitely isn't right.

I agree with Time Stop and the fact that it can snare and stun players on different levels.

And perma is a difficult one, yes it has a lot of utility but i feel its most effective on Spin to Win builds with the execute from Steel Tornado and DW passives... which is a whole other story. Maybe Perma can have its snare reduced to 30%. But by itself Perma is fine, when coupled with strong abilities/ sets its powerful.

Agreed, I think a snare reduction would do it. Although if medium armor had a legitimate snare removal and immunity I wouldn’t have so much problem with it. Shuffle is jsut so bad. If you’re right next to the player and they drop permafrost. Shuffle sometimes runs out before you can even get away. All the player has to is follow you. So then you’re stuck spamming shuffle and trying to outheal, with more icncoming attacks, and you’re out of Stam in no time. In heavy, permafrost is not as big of a deal as FM is still viable in cost and duration, and of course the extra defenses from heavy.

NuarBlack

Vapirko wrote: »

Time stop definitely needs adjustment. 5k points of healing negated is a lot in PvP. The size of the AOE on both is just crazy. That ability is arguably on par with negate. It's just way too much for a skill. Probably a big size reduction would be a good way to start.

Permafrost idk. I hate it but it is an ultimate. It has a high cost but the wardens ability to generate ultimate definitely negates some of that cost. The only thing we can really compare it to is EOTS, which of course is high damage but doesn't have a snare unless you use an ice staff which isn't a good choice for anyone except wardens really. There are also so few good magicka ults, I don't want to take things away from Magicka Wardens. But if you look at permafrost: damage, snare, major protection, and then a stun after 3 ticks. EOTS: just damage + effect from staff. Also EOTS is 250 ultimate vs Permafrost at 200. EOTS is also 2 meters smaller, and 1 second shorter.

The name of the game in PvP these days is AOE snare + AOE damage, its really effective, extremely cheesy and because of the mobility nerfs, counter play is very low especially on medium and light armor builds which need it the most. Something definitely isn't right.

Some adjustments may be needed but gutting it will further dilute and dumb down the game. A telegraph marker would be where I'd start like eye. As far as counter play FM and shuffle are plenty to get out, especially if a telegraph marker is added as that is usually the problem is you notice your health dropping before you do the actual skill. So I'm not concerned for stam players. If they dropped FM that is their fault. I actually don't really have a problem with snares just running wings on my stamDK. If I die to either cause I didn't even know that was what was hitting me till the recap. So more snare immunity for more mag specs and a telegraph first. Cause if I see permafrost or northern star I can deal. Dbos and incap still cheese harder imo.

NupidStoob

NuarBlack wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Time stop definitely needs adjustment. 5k points of healing negated is a lot in PvP. The size of the AOE on both is just crazy. That ability is arguably on par with negate. It's just way too much for a skill. Probably a big size reduction would be a good way to start.

Permafrost idk. I hate it but it is an ultimate. It has a high cost but the wardens ability to generate ultimate definitely negates some of that cost. The only thing we can really compare it to is EOTS, which of course is high damage but doesn't have a snare unless you use an ice staff which isn't a good choice for anyone except wardens really. There are also so few good magicka ults, I don't want to take things away from Magicka Wardens. But if you look at permafrost: damage, snare, major protection, and then a stun after 3 ticks. EOTS: just damage + effect from staff. Also EOTS is 250 ultimate vs Permafrost at 200. EOTS is also 2 meters smaller, and 1 second shorter.

The name of the game in PvP these days is AOE snare + AOE damage, its really effective, extremely cheesy and because of the mobility nerfs, counter play is very low especially on medium and light armor builds which need it the most. Something definitely isn't right.

Some adjustments may be needed but gutting it will further dilute and dumb down the game. A telegraph marker would be where I'd start like eye. As far as counter play FM and shuffle are plenty to get out, especially if a telegraph marker is added as that is usually the problem is you notice your health dropping before you do the actual skill. So I'm not concerned for stam players. If they dropped FM that is their fault. I actually don't really have a problem with snares just running wings on my stamDK. If I die to either cause I didn't even know that was what was hitting me till the recap. So more snare immunity for more mag specs and a telegraph first. Cause if I see permafrost or northern star I can deal. Dbos and incap still cheese harder imo.

Magicka so irrelevant this patch it doesn't even deserve a mention? They don't usually have FM nor shuffle. As magicka, especially in low CP you can roll dodge once and then have to save stamina to break free from the inevitable stun. Unless you have streak getting away from people that run on top of you with that is really not happening which just increases the requirement to build tankier again.

NuarBlack

NupidStoob wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Time stop definitely needs adjustment. 5k points of healing negated is a lot in PvP. The size of the AOE on both is just crazy. That ability is arguably on par with negate. It's just way too much for a skill. Probably a big size reduction would be a good way to start.

Permafrost idk. I hate it but it is an ultimate. It has a high cost but the wardens ability to generate ultimate definitely negates some of that cost. The only thing we can really compare it to is EOTS, which of course is high damage but doesn't have a snare unless you use an ice staff which isn't a good choice for anyone except wardens really. There are also so few good magicka ults, I don't want to take things away from Magicka Wardens. But if you look at permafrost: damage, snare, major protection, and then a stun after 3 ticks. EOTS: just damage + effect from staff. Also EOTS is 250 ultimate vs Permafrost at 200. EOTS is also 2 meters smaller, and 1 second shorter.

The name of the game in PvP these days is AOE snare + AOE damage, its really effective, extremely cheesy and because of the mobility nerfs, counter play is very low especially on medium and light armor builds which need it the most. Something definitely isn't right.

Some adjustments may be needed but gutting it will further dilute and dumb down the game. A telegraph marker would be where I'd start like eye. As far as counter play FM and shuffle are plenty to get out, especially if a telegraph marker is added as that is usually the problem is you notice your health dropping before you do the actual skill. So I'm not concerned for stam players. If they dropped FM that is their fault. I actually don't really have a problem with snares just running wings on my stamDK. If I die to either cause I didn't even know that was what was hitting me till the recap. So more snare immunity for more mag specs and a telegraph first. Cause if I see permafrost or northern star I can deal. Dbos and incap still cheese harder imo.

Magicka so irrelevant this patch it doesn't even deserve a mention? They don't usually have FM nor shuffle. As magicka, especially in low CP you can roll dodge once and then have to save stamina to break free from the inevitable stun. Unless you have streak getting away from people that run on top of you with that is really not happening which just increases the requirement to build tankier again.

Um I did say more access for snare immunity for mag specs.

NuarBlack wrote: »

So more snare immunity for more mag specs and a telegraph first. Cause if I see permafrost or northern star I can deal. Dbos and incap still cheese harder imo.

I would like to see that happen before we gut another ability. And a telegraph marker is all I'm saying. Small adjustments instead of knee jerk nerfs.

Rizz_the_Filthy_Dino

Slows should instead overwrite one another, strongest overwriting the least strongest. This instead of stacking.

Vapirko

Rizz_the_Filthy_Dino wrote: »

Slows should instead overwrite one another, strongest overwriting the least strongest. This instead of stacking.

Poison snares also shouldn’t over ride immunity, and I think there’s no question that shuffle needs to have an immunity time in line with FM.

NupidStoob wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Time stop definitely needs adjustment. 5k points of healing negated is a lot in PvP. The size of the AOE on both is just crazy. That ability is arguably on par with negate. It's just way too much for a skill. Probably a big size reduction would be a good way to start.

Permafrost idk. I hate it but it is an ultimate. It has a high cost but the wardens ability to generate ultimate definitely negates some of that cost. The only thing we can really compare it to is EOTS, which of course is high damage but doesn't have a snare unless you use an ice staff which isn't a good choice for anyone except wardens really. There are also so few good magicka ults, I don't want to take things away from Magicka Wardens. But if you look at permafrost: damage, snare, major protection, and then a stun after 3 ticks. EOTS: just damage + effect from staff. Also EOTS is 250 ultimate vs Permafrost at 200. EOTS is also 2 meters smaller, and 1 second shorter.

The name of the game in PvP these days is AOE snare + AOE damage, its really effective, extremely cheesy and because of the mobility nerfs, counter play is very low especially on medium and light armor builds which need it the most. Something definitely isn't right.

Some adjustments may be needed but gutting it will further dilute and dumb down the game. A telegraph marker would be where I'd start like eye. As far as counter play FM and shuffle are plenty to get out, especially if a telegraph marker is added as that is usually the problem is you notice your health dropping before you do the actual skill. So I'm not concerned for stam players. If they dropped FM that is their fault. I actually don't really have a problem with snares just running wings on my stamDK. If I die to either cause I didn't even know that was what was hitting me till the recap. So more snare immunity for more mag specs and a telegraph first. Cause if I see permafrost or northern star I can deal. Dbos and incap still cheese harder imo.

Magicka so irrelevant this patch it doesn't even deserve a mention? They don't usually have FM nor shuffle. As magicka, especially in low CP you can roll dodge once and then have to save stamina to break free from the inevitable stun. Unless you have streak getting away from people that run on top of you with that is really not happening which just increases the requirement to build tankier again.

Mistform is about as effective as shuffle tbh. DKs have wings. Magblades haven’t much choice except to try and cloak away which doesn’t work nearly as well as it does for stamblades, and sorcs have streak which is sorta good I guess. Magicka does need some form of snare removal, immunity that is viable to all classes.

HansProlo

Yes, nerf mag warden. They are way too strong lol

NupidStoob

NuarBlack wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Time stop definitely needs adjustment. 5k points of healing negated is a lot in PvP. The size of the AOE on both is just crazy. That ability is arguably on par with negate. It's just way too much for a skill. Probably a big size reduction would be a good way to start.

Permafrost idk. I hate it but it is an ultimate. It has a high cost but the wardens ability to generate ultimate definitely negates some of that cost. The only thing we can really compare it to is EOTS, which of course is high damage but doesn't have a snare unless you use an ice staff which isn't a good choice for anyone except wardens really. There are also so few good magicka ults, I don't want to take things away from Magicka Wardens. But if you look at permafrost: damage, snare, major protection, and then a stun after 3 ticks. EOTS: just damage + effect from staff. Also EOTS is 250 ultimate vs Permafrost at 200. EOTS is also 2 meters smaller, and 1 second shorter.

The name of the game in PvP these days is AOE snare + AOE damage, its really effective, extremely cheesy and because of the mobility nerfs, counter play is very low especially on medium and light armor builds which need it the most. Something definitely isn't right.

Some adjustments may be needed but gutting it will further dilute and dumb down the game. A telegraph marker would be where I'd start like eye. As far as counter play FM and shuffle are plenty to get out, especially if a telegraph marker is added as that is usually the problem is you notice your health dropping before you do the actual skill. So I'm not concerned for stam players. If they dropped FM that is their fault. I actually don't really have a problem with snares just running wings on my stamDK. If I die to either cause I didn't even know that was what was hitting me till the recap. So more snare immunity for more mag specs and a telegraph first. Cause if I see permafrost or northern star I can deal. Dbos and incap still cheese harder imo.

Magicka so irrelevant this patch it doesn't even deserve a mention? They don't usually have FM nor shuffle. As magicka, especially in low CP you can roll dodge once and then have to save stamina to break free from the inevitable stun. Unless you have streak getting away from people that run on top of you with that is really not happening which just increases the requirement to build tankier again.

Um I did say more access for snare immunity for mag specs.

Sorry my bad. I shouldn't write comments right after waking up.

NinchiTV

you know they wont be nerfing the cash cow - i mean warden until there is a new class to make $ off. We all know how OP warden is, zos dont care. As for time stop i just try to get out of any growing red on the floor and it seems to work out for me.

aetherial_heavenn

I don't see it as aa class issue. I just want all cc (hard, soft, snares, and slows ) to have a shared immunity and a counter that actually works for 6 secs. Ie immovable pots or fm or cloak or break free or roll dodge or w/e actually give me 6 consecutive secs immunity.

Not stackable counters that keep me immune indefinitely. Just a simple counter to all ccs that works like it says on the tin for 6 secs. The only thing that breaks me out of cc stacking groups is when someone accidentally fears me out of it!

The other day, playing magplar healer i was locked down for 15 secs despite previously potting immoveable/stam/health potion, using immovable poison on several of group, and breaking free or trying to, the cc ball group just stacked ccs/snares until the dd could ult bomb me. This has become the standard game play we encounter regularly.

I loved the fast game play in eso but the cc stacking in pve and pvp is ruining it slowly and snareily. I hope the devs never add another to the game.

Ok stambois tell me why i am wrong /ducks
😂

Trancestor

HansProlo wrote: »

Yes, nerf mag warden. They are way too strong lol

They are btw

HansProlo

Trancestor wrote: »

HansProlo wrote: »

Yes, nerf mag warden. They are way too strong lol

They are btw

Tell me your build because mine seems to suck then

ChunkyCat

HansProlo wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

HansProlo wrote: »

Yes, nerf mag warden. They are way too strong lol

They are btw

Tell me your build because mine seems to suck then

ice, ice... baby.

NuarBlack

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

I don't see it as aa class issue. I just want all cc (hard, soft, snares, and slows ) to have a shared immunity and a counter that actually works for 6 secs. Ie immovable pots or fm or cloak or break free or roll dodge or w/e actually give me 6 consecutive secs immunity.

Not stackable counters that keep me immune indefinitely. Just a simple counter to all ccs that works like it says on the tin for 6 secs. The only thing that breaks me out of cc stacking groups is when someone accidentally fears me out of it!

The other day, playing magplar healer i was locked down for 15 secs despite previously potting immoveable/stam/health potion, using immovable poison on several of group, and breaking free or trying to, the cc ball group just stacked ccs/snares until the dd could ult bomb me. This has become the standard game play we encounter regularly.

I loved the fast game play in eso but the cc stacking in pve and pvp is ruining it slowly and snareily. I hope the devs never add another to the game.

Ok stambois tell me why i am wrong /ducks
😂

Cause your idea will benefit stam more than mag.

Tying immunity to roll dodge just doubles down on stam already being able to deal with snares and roots better. Giving mag access to snare immunity via magicka is a much better option(unless of course they make a light armor passive that changes dodge to a short teleport and costs mag).

Poisons are broken and need to behave like everything else though so you are not wrong there.

Last the game actually needs 3 separate DRs and definitely not all on one. Kiting is already a joke in the game cause of spammable gap closers. Roots and snares should be the tool of mag and bow to kite without having to sacrifice hard CC like they would if everything was on the same DR. In fact knockback and pull should have a separate DR from hard CC except with no interrupt like they do now so it's not a further way to lockdown mag. They simply move your character. This would benefit mag the most cause it would actually create a difference in clenches between staves, Allow better kiting, and stam can still just gap close right back but requires them counter with a counter of there own. Plus chains and leash could see more use and be good for peeling stam off fellow mag teammates. And chances are people will still only have room for 2 of the 3 on their bars but cause your teammate put that stam Dbos spin2win on DR cause he broke free instantly you might still have some options to keep him off you.

aetherial_heavenn

NuarBlack wrote: »

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

I don't see it as aa class issue. I just want all cc (hard, soft, snares, and slows ) to have a shared immunity and a counter that actually works for 6 secs. Ie immovable pots or fm or cloak or break free or roll dodge or w/e actually give me 6 consecutive secs immunity.

Not stackable counters that keep me immune indefinitely. Just a simple counter to all ccs that works like it says on the tin for 6 secs. The only thing that breaks me out of cc stacking groups is when someone accidentally fears me out of it!

The other day, playing magplar healer i was locked down for 15 secs despite previously potting immoveable/stam/health potion, using immovable poison on several of group, and breaking free or trying to, the cc ball group just stacked ccs/snares until the dd could ult bomb me. This has become the standard game play we encounter regularly.

I loved the fast game play in eso but the cc stacking in pve and pvp is ruining it slowly and snareily. I hope the devs never add another to the game.

Ok stambois tell me why i am wrong /ducks
😂

Cause your idea will benefit stam more than mag.

Tying immunity to role dodge just doubles down on stam already being able to deal with snares and roots better. Giving mag access to snare immunity via magicka is a much better option(unless of course they make a light armor passive that changes dodge to a short teleport and costs mag).

Poisons are broken and need to behave like everything else though so you are not wrong there.

Last the game actually needs 3 separate DRs and definitely not all on one. Kiting is already a joke in the game cause of spammable gap closers. Roots and snares should be the tool of mag and bow to kite without having to sacrifice hard CC like they would if everything was on the same DR. In fact knockback and pull should have a separate DR from hard CC except with no interrupt like they do now so it's not a further way to lockdown mag. They simply move your character. This would benefit mag the most cause it would actually create a difference in clenches between staves, Allow better kiting, and stam can still just gap close right back but requires them counter with a counter of there own. Plus chains and leash could see more use and be good for peeling stam off fellow mag teammates. And chances are people will still only have room for 2 of the 3 on their bars but cause your teammate put that stam Dbos spin2win on DR cause he broke free instantly you might still have some options to keep him off you.

Gave you an insightful. Thanks for the considered reply.

SugaComa

Solariken wrote: »

I think it's time we rally together and make a bunch of noise about removing the snares from both of these abilities. Nothing is less fun than not being able to move, especially when the snare area is the size of a football field. The massive AOE stuns are plenty strong enough. I could write up a wall of text detailing why these skills are problematic but anyone who plays BG's has a thorough understanding.

Keep the snare on Northern Storm if you want but remove it from Permafrost. Likewise, keep the snare on Borrowed Time but remove it from Time Freeze.

Who's with me!?

Time freeze should be a root and borrowed time a snare slowing down players

While I get in BG they can be painful in cyrodil they are very much a requirement

technohic

Time freeze stuff looks cool so I doubt they change it. Then again; the reason they had made dive undodgeable and unblockable was so they could have it look cool but they found a way to leave that and just make it suck.