I'm sure I'm in the minority but...

yodased

Skwor wrote: »

@yodased
Cite your sources it has not. Truth is Zen does not release the actual numbers. My data for player population is anecdotal and I readily admit that. Zones when I play are less populated imo especially pvp.

Now your turn, what are your sources I am wrong other than your opinion based on your obsevations, or do you not even have that much?

If you are trying to debunk my post on population you need to provide a source. You will note I did not make an arguement that the population being down proves incentives are lacking. I stated incentives are one reason it is going down. An important distinction that allows for me to be wrong on the population fact but still possible to be right about how incentives can impact a game. One is not dependent of the other as I presented. Yes I can be wrong about the population but not necessarily about incentives.

Your challange however is completely dependent on you being right about the population, so please do provide your source.

I didn't claim either way about the population simply that you could not make a blanket statement that ESO population was declining, in fact I said that none of us could know.

I wasn't challenging you to say you were wrong, simply that you presented yourself as a source of information that is in fact opinion.

Merlin13KAGL

Being as proud as you are, I'm a little surprised you didn't go with "Earn only."

But, I suppose that would quickly dry up your income stream?

Pot calling kettle black, and all...


You don't care that they have it. You care that you don't get to sell it.

No one's getting a full motif set from a handful of event reward boxes.

Alinhbo_Tyaka

I'm coming at this more from the viewpoint of someone closer to their twilight years but I think needing shinies to justify running of certain content and getting a feeling of accomplishment is misplaced. I personally don't care if certain levels of rewards aren't available to everyone in the game nor would it bother me if everyone got everything. There are too many accomplishment I've had in real life for any in a game ones to be of any importance (raising kids, grandchildren,etc). As to outfits and how they are obtained again I don't care. I know some folks are into transmog/glamour and it adds some variety to the environment which is good but as long as they are having fun who am I to be bothered by how they got it?

I play MMO's to have fun. With ESO I haven't really run any group stuff but in others I regularly do/did. While the rewards are a nice perk I ran harder content because it was fun and any sense of accomplishment was from completing it. If the perks weren't there I still would have run the content up to the level where I could still have fun. Once it isn't fun you could dangle the god mode code in front of me and I wouldn't do it.

Getting back to the original post I don't think it matters that things are made available to all players via whatever mechanism ZOS decides. In the big scheme doing it via limited time events seems a reasonable compromise between the players that like exclusivity and those that believe everything should be free. For some things like motifs it is actually an advantage for those exclusive rewards players who have had bad luck with RNG. By offering items as additional rewards as the unlucky players have more opportunities to get that last missing motif or rare piece of gear.

mlstevens42_ESO

First I question the need to put motifs which are a crafting item in dungeons or trials....Even stealing or pvp to get them these things have nothing at all to do with making armor or weapons. With all of the sets and all of the various ways to get them it takes lots of time...or gold or both get then in the first place. As many others have argued I would wager it is about the value of the items going down rather then any real reason for your gripe. There are sets you can only get in said places there are often skins and such there is no need to go on about motifs they have absolutely nothing to do with the type of content you are doing anyway. There is no real glory and having motifs that others do not have and all the crafter gets out of it is a slim possibility that they will get master writs more often or with more vouchers attached.

MehrunesFlagon

yodased wrote: »

You don't yearn for hardcore games, because there are several out there right now that will give you exactly what you want.

Punishing, grueling difficulty that will remove all your progress and death, or games that give you 1 life only.

What you want is for this particular game to shift into what you feel is the "correct" version of a game that doesn't cater to so-called 'casuals'.

Sorry buddy but this game is by design meant for the people you are shatting on, so yes you are in the minority not only in your opinions but also in the group of players themselves.

Do you have all of your skins? VHOF polymorph? Worm Cult Personality?

If you don't, I would be careful throwing around that casual word so easily, you are part of them.

People running more difficult dungeons need a source of income that can come from them.

yodased

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

You don't yearn for hardcore games, because there are several out there right now that will give you exactly what you want.

Punishing, grueling difficulty that will remove all your progress and death, or games that give you 1 life only.

What you want is for this particular game to shift into what you feel is the "correct" version of a game that doesn't cater to so-called 'casuals'.

Sorry buddy but this game is by design meant for the people you are shatting on, so yes you are in the minority not only in your opinions but also in the group of players themselves.

Do you have all of your skins? VHOF polymorph? Worm Cult Personality?

If you don't, I would be careful throwing around that casual word so easily, you are part of them.

People running more difficult dungeons need a source of income that can come from them.

I'm one of those people and I still make 6m a month, so not sure why anyone else can't do that as well

eso_nya

If u dont like games catering to casuals, go play WildStar, hehe.

As far as motifbooks go, u can buy them in crownstore or buy from ppl who bought them in crownstore, very leet, much skill.

Where i agree tho, in eso rewards get better, the easier an activity is. That is not a good or healthy principle.

Swomp23

I agree with this, but only for stuff that gives actual gameplay rewards, not motifs.

Can't do vet scalecaller? No Zaan monster helm for you.

Can't do vMA? No Maelstrom weapon for you.

That's how it should work.

The way new trials give non-perfected version in normal mode kinda devaluates the vet version, imo. And that's coming from someone that never attempted a vet trial.

About motifs, however, I couldn't care less.

Prof_Bawbag

concegual wrote: »

never said i wanted them to buy them from me to be honest i'd sooner see them complete the dungeons and earn them...Posted this knowing everyone prefers the easier path :P and knowing I opened myself up to being condemned doesn't change the fact that games have been dumb down over the years and risk vs. reward has slowly been drained from most of them. Sorry yearn for the old days when games were a bit more hardcore...

Maybe when you're sitting your grand kids on your lap, telling them about your life achievements as a pro gamer, with added heroics, they'll actually give 2 *****. Until then, I'm afraid you're just gonna have to stroke your own ego.

what's more worrying, if this is the sort of stuff you fret over, you're gonna have some hard knocks when real life gives you proper things to fret over.

Ragnork

Swomp23 wrote: »

I agree with this, but only for stuff that gives actual gameplay rewards, not motifs.

Can't do vet scalecaller? No Zaan monster helm for you.

Can't do vMA? No Maelstrom weapon for you.

That's how it should work.

About motifs, however, I couldn't care less.

This.

As far as I am aware a motif adds nothing to the effectiveness or otherwise of weapons or armour and given that most people seem to wear some for of outfit (nord bathtowel for example) then what does it really matter? Other than farming them to sell on and that contradicts the argument about them being locked to harder content.

As said somewhere else if it really mattered they should be bound to account (or character given that the dungeons often need a specific build).

Jaraal

concegual wrote: »

....games have been dumb down over the years and risk vs. reward has slowly been drained from most of them. Sorry yearn for the old days when games were a bit more hardcore...

Reminds me of the Epic Weapon grind from EverQuest back in the day. It took multiple groups and usually weeks of work to get that no-drop weapon, and everybody knew what it was and you were damn proud of it. Long before you could pay cash for your style token and make trash weapons look uber, like some games today.

HalloweenWeed

concegual wrote: »

Certain things in a game should be hard to get...Every game these days caters to the casual.
If one can't farm Fang lair, Scale caller or anything else a bit difficult in game they don't deserve the rewards or should be forced to buy them from someone who did earn them...These events handing out the things which are harder to earn for free lessen the game.
<Steps off soap box... rant over...

Agreed.
Including drinks, exp. scrolls, & potions.

yodased

Ragnork wrote: »

Swomp23 wrote: »

I agree with this, but only for stuff that gives actual gameplay rewards, not motifs.

Can't do vet scalecaller? No Zaan monster helm for you.

Can't do vMA? No Maelstrom weapon for you.

That's how it should work.

About motifs, however, I couldn't care less.

This.

As far as I am aware a motif adds nothing to the effectiveness or otherwise of weapons or armour and given that most people seem to wear some for of outfit (nord bathtowel for example) then what does it really matter? Other than farming them to sell on and that contradicts the argument about them being locked to harder content.

As said somewhere else if it really mattered they should be bound to account (or character given that the dungeons often need a specific build).

motifs do add something, happiness.

Agenericname

concegual wrote: »

Certain things in a game should be hard to get...Every game these days caters to the casual.
If one can't farm Fang lair, Scale caller or anything else a bit difficult in game they don't deserve the rewards or should be forced to buy them from someone who did earn them...These events handing out the things which are harder to earn for free lessen the game.
<Steps off soap box... rant over...

I've never looked at someone and wondered if they bought their motif or if it dropped for them. They were for sale prior to the event though, so they weren't exclusive to the people that cleared the content anyway. The whole point is a moot one as far as I'm concerned.

It seems counter-productive to remove incentive, and even if on a minute level it did. This incentive in specific dungeons isnt geared toward newer players and expanding the dungeon going population as a whole. The current event and rewards does add that and applies to every player that can enter a dungeon, assuming they can get past the "someone declined queue" boss. It may be healthier for the game long term.

I would be against vMA weapons in crown crates, but it would end the "nerf maelstrom weapons" debate definitively.

KRBMMO

concegual wrote: »

Certain things in a game should be hard to get...Every game these days caters to the casual.
If one can't farm Fang lair, Scale caller or anything else a bit difficult in game they don't deserve the rewards or should be forced to buy them from someone who did earn them...These events handing out the things which are harder to earn for free lessen the game.
<Steps off soap box... rant over...

When you say "farm" it kind of implies doing the same content a dozen times again and again.
This is not "difficult" - it's just a pain in the backside.

Unfortunately ZOS believes that RNG = difficulty.

Doing a dungeon hundreds of times to get a certain item is not "skill" - it just means the players don't have children, wife, girlfriend, job etc.
I mean, that's cool ... nothing wrong with it. I'm just clarifying the difference between content that is "difficult" vs "time sink"

Where "filthy casuals" like me stop subscribing to a game is when we spend hours playing and get no enjoyment from it because 99% of the "elite" population is in "farm mode". We find a game that is actually is truly "difficult" but can be enjoyed in just a few hours a day.

Pheefs

concegual wrote: »

I would say somethings should be harder to achieve simply to keep that carrot dangled out in front us us give us something to work for...

Hi! filthy causal here, & as far as most of Us see it...
making players endlessly repeat the same content to get a rare reward is Old Think.
Games can be more fun than that now, its about to be 2019!

Abigail

Pheefs wrote: »

concegual wrote: »

I would say somethings should be harder to achieve simply to keep that carrot dangled out in front us us give us something to work for...

Hi! filthy causal here, & as far as most of Us see it...
making players endlessly repeat the same content to get a rare reward is Old Think.
Games can be more fun than that now, its about to be 2019!

For you!

LeagueTroll

Just because i can doesn’t mean i want to. Doing dungeons only for motif and not getting useful gear is just plain boring. Event make those cheaper so i can actually buy them.

preevious

That thread gave me an Idea ..

Why not an event rewarding with monster helms, arena weapons (maelstrom, master, blackrose and asylum), aetheric cyphers, etc..

That would be an awesome idea ! After all, kicking the crafters by making motifs ridiculously easy to obtain is a thing, but what about alienating Hi-end PvE players as well?

Then, a reward box containing the emperor title, the red color, the roby throne and the like will also be in order, of course !

Abigail

preevious wrote: »

That thread gave me an Idea ..

Why not an event rewarding with monster helms, arena weapons (maelstrom, master, blackrose and asylum), aetheric cyphers, etc..

That would be an awesome idea ! After all, kicking the crafters by making motifs ridiculously easy to obtain is a thing, but what about alienating Hi-end PvE players as well?

Then, a reward box containing the emperor title, the red color, the roby throne and the like will also be in order, of course !

Reductio ad absurdum.

jaws343

concegual wrote: »

Certain things in a game should be hard to get...Every game these days caters to the casual.
If one can't farm Fang lair, Scale caller or anything else a bit difficult in game they don't deserve the rewards or should be forced to buy them from someone who did earn them...These events handing out the things which are harder to earn for free lessen the game.
<Steps off soap box... rant over...

I mean, I could farm these dungeons fairly easily for the motifs. But honestly, why waste 10s of hours doing this. I like these events because I am not forced to sit there and do the same thing over and over again just to get that 1 lucky motif drop. And then that also means I don't have to hope I can get a group together regularly enough to farm this and not rely on PUGs. At least this way, players can actually do things they enjoy and still get cosmetic items that have zero impact on the game. And no, effecting the market is not a legitimate impact on the game.

preevious

Abigail wrote: »

Reductio ad absurdum.

Really? maybe .. but ultimately, it's the exact same thing.
They take an achievement, something that a few players are proud of .. and give it to everyone.

jaws343

preevious wrote: »

Abigail wrote: »

Reductio ad absurdum.

Really? maybe .. but ultimately, it's the exact same thing.
They take an achievement, something that a few players are proud of .. and give it to everyone.

Except, motifs have zero impact on skills, armor, weapons, playstyles, damage, etc. They are cosmetic and meaningless and denote nothing about a players skills.

Abigail

preevious wrote: »

Abigail wrote: »

Reductio ad absurdum.

Really? maybe .. but ultimately, it's the exact same thing.
They take an achievement, something that a few players are proud of .. and give it to everyone.

Ah, but I'll bet you're not against selling these same motifs. Pride and greed are intimate bedfellows.

Linaleah

funny thing about motivation. majority of people see content that is frustrating for them and they are NOT motivated to keep coming back for them. instead - they just leave. this game lost the most players when it was catering to the more hardcore so to speak.

right now? people are actualy motivated to try dungeons becasue they know they can get cool rewards from them with far less frustration then trying to find a decent group to farm vet DLC dungeons comes with.

there are acceptable levels of frustration for most people. DLC dungeons were well WELL above those. and now... people have a chance to EARN these motifs through gameplay they actualy ENJOY. how dare they....

P.S. i bought all of my motifs from guild traders. and I think its AWESOME that they are becoming more accessible to more people. oh and lets not compare actualy gameplay items like gear to cosmetic items like motifs, k?

Sylosi

Skwor wrote: »

One way to kill an MMO is by removing the incentive to play. When all the rewards become easy to achieve or are basically handed out wholesale the incentive to play becomes less.

MMORPGs are killing themselves by basically becoming bad mobile games with bad, dull gameplay which is secondary to "rewards". Hence in a time where there has been a massive influx of online gamers MMORPGs have barely captured any of them and gone from mainstream to niche in under 10 years.

They hand out "rewards" wholesale because braindead Skinner Box zombies is mostly what their playerbase consists of now.

Fleshreaper

preevious wrote: »

Abigail wrote: »

Reductio ad absurdum.

Really? maybe .. but ultimately, it's the exact same thing.
They take an achievement, something that a few players are proud of .. and give it to everyone.

Well, you are out of luck. These motifs are already in the crown store. What I find funny is the fact you are absolutely fine with someone buying the motif chapters (from you or someone else) but oh the sky is falling if someone runs an actual dungeon that these don't drop from and has a chance to get them.

preevious

Abigail wrote: »

Ah, but I'll bet you're not against selling these same motifs. Pride and greed are intimate bedfellows.

Ah, an Ad Hominem attack, now? Insult me all you want, for all I care.
There is plenty of ways to make gold, in this game, motifs are really not so important in that regard.
It's just that cheapening any achievement is not fun for those who got them, is all

But frankly, since you seem highly preoccuped by the other players playstyles .. I'll never understand why people like you think it's shamefull to raise gold in this game, calling other people "greedy" and the like .. why would anyone be ashamed? I need gold to buy every furnishing plan, because that's as good a goal as to become emperor, or to solo vet trials or whatnot ..

I play like I want, without grieving others... you should cut the judgemental crap and do the same, maybe?

Jimmy

The casuals make up the overwhelming majority of this game, and the source of ZOS's income. So, don't expect change and look at it a different way, easy gear keeps this game alive.

Feric51

eso_nya wrote: »

If u dont like games catering to casuals, go play WildStar, hehe.

As far as motifbooks go, u can buy them in crownstore or buy from ppl who bought them in crownstore, very leet, much skill.

Where i agree tho, in eso rewards get better, the easier an activity is. That is not a good or healthy principle.

Apparently that game was shut down, or scheduled to at least, two days ago......

Difficult to play indeed, lol.