Things that ZOS can actually do to prevent fake tanks/healers/DDs in the dungeon finder

ZeroXFF

There are multiple threads on the topic of fake tanks/healers ruining the experience. In this thread I want to focus on solutions that ZOS can implement with low maintenance costs if done right (so no requirement for GMs checking reports), and options that would not result in worse dungeon experiences (like damage debuffs on healers/tanks that could otherwise have carried a bad group). Feel free to add your suggestions if you can think of such that qualify.

I see 2 such solutions:

a) The easiest solution to this problem would be to add the option to queue for a non-traditional group setup. Add a checkbox in the dungeon finder, and only put people who have it selected in non-traditional groups, and only if there is a long queue for the role they selected. There is literally no reason not to implement this, even if my other suggestion is also implemented...

b) Create 3 "Undaunted Proving Grounds" (one for each role). Could be a new free DLC (like homestead and 1T were). They should in their atmosphere be like arenas or the Blessed Crucible dungeon, but only contain painfully obvious mechanics that are present in almost every dungeon, and grant people a score depending on how well they do there in various aspects of a certain role.

From here on out I'll be focusing on solution b) since a) is fairly obvious. If you already have an idea of how and why b) would work, feel free to stop reading here, there are no more suggestions, just details and reasoning for b).

For example for DDs the undaunted proving grounds could have mechanics like this:
1. A big boss with a fairly high amount of HP (to make sure power creep doesn't make this completely useless in the future) attacks an NPC ally. Your goal is to kill the boss before your ally does. Occasionally there are fairly easily avoidable and obvious mechanics appearing that do a lot of damage or even 1-shot you (for example red circles, boss turning around and starting to cast an interruptable skill etc). You get score not just based on whether you kill the boss before he kills your ally, but also based on how fast you kill the boss and how well you avoided the damage.
2. You get swarmed by adds with higher and higher HP that do quite low damage that adds up slowly to brutal levels if you stay alive long enough but can't kill adds fast enough. You get score based on how many adds you kill before you get overwhelmed.
3. You get a lot of ranged adds that keep moving around. You get score the same way as in 2.

This way you get to test damage on single target, AoE, and on moving targets.

For tanks it could look like:
1. Boss does a series of heavy attacks and after each heavy attack his damage increases by say 5%. There are also some easily identifiable mechanics like for DDs. You get a score based on how long you stay alive.
2. You get multiple NPCs as allies, and you get swarmed by adds that run off to attack your allies if you lose taunt. Your allies also do some damage (the more the better you debuff the enemies). They do fairly low damage to you (but frequently, and there will be more and more of them). Your allies are killing them, but slower than they spawn. You get a score based on how long you and your allies stay alive.

This way you test tank survival, add control, sustain and maybe even off-heal if the number of adds and their strength is balanced properly (so that you can prioritize the heavy hitters, which is also useful in dungeons).

I'm not an expert on healing, but it could be something like:
1. Adds of varying strength spawn, faster than the NPCs helping you could kill them. The adds prioritize attacking the NPCs, but occasionally some of them might run to you too. If you give buffs and debuffs increasing damage or resource sustain, they do more damage and kill the adds faster. There are also easily avoidable and well telegraphed mechanics going on just like for tanks and DDs. You get score based on how long you and your NPC friends stay alive (say score ticks with a timer and each tick is multiplied by the number of allies alive in the given segment). The damage that the NPCs do should be so high that no matter how good you'd be as a DD, you're better off being a healer and/or you get a debuff that makes sure that every attack you do does just 1 point of damage (to still allow the healer to trigger off-balance with lightning blockade and the likes, but not allowing to meaningfully contribute to the damage output).

This way you test buffing, healing and sustain.

**********

The 2nd part of the implementation of the proving grounds would be to sort dungeons by their requirements. For example assign to vet Direfrost Keep a score equivalent of a single target requirement of 15k DPS, 20k for vCoA2, 30k for vFH, high AoE and moving target scores for vDC2 etc. Put low healing requirements on vFG1, but high on vDC2, and same with tanks depending on how hard the stuff hits in the corresponding dungeons (low in vFG1, somewhat higher for vet Selene's Web, and really high in vMHK and vFL).

Once that is done, add a drop-down menu to the dungeon finder with options:
1. Run only with qualified people.
2. Only run dungeons I'm qualified for, but it's ok if some other people are not qualified.
3. A completely unqualified group is ok. (for those who want the current PUG experience or refuse/haven't gotten around to doing the proving grounds)

I'm sure it can be worded better, but this should be the essence of it. Based on the option you pick, your scores in the proving grounds, the role(s) you have selected (yes, please bring back multi-role queuing, my magplar did vSP hm both as tank and DD, I really can do both on the same char), and the difficulty rating of the dungeons, you then get put in the dungeons with people of qualifications you agreed to have with you.

The only downside to this would be that in the background the dungeon finder would need much more robust algorithms to sort all of this information to create fitting groups in optimal time, but the upside would be that real tanks can then be fairly certain that the DDs they are matched with are at least qualified for the content (even if they have to learn the specific mechanics). This would bring queue times for the different roles closer together so that there is less incentive for people to queue as fakes, on top of excluding fakes when you select the option for strict qualification requirement. This would also add content to the game, and make the Undaunted more than a place to get dailies, but also a place to prove your skills.

The proving grounds score should also override the CP requirement for certain dungeons, if it is high enough. That way an experienced player who switched platforms and has 180CP wouldn't be penalized any more, unlike under the current system. This is a rather minor point, but the fairer the better.

Now sure, people could get the qualification and then deconstruct the gear they used for it, but I don't see anyone who is good enough to get qualification for the last 2-3 DLC dungeon packs just ditching all the gear they used for it and then queuing as a fake, they will be people who are experienced enough to know how annoying fakes can be, and will at least have the decency to slot a taunt if they queue as a fake tank...

EDIT:
Solutions that fit the bill that were proposed by other people:

c) (Suggested by @temjiu ) Increase the standard group size to 5 or 6 so that more DDs get in for each tank and healer that queued.

yodased

Many, if not most other MMO's have something similar to this called dungeon attuning and/or gear score.

The reason that this works in those games is because classes are limited in scope to what they can do and the gear they can wear.

This game, however, does not have any of those limitation and is presented as different than the rest specifically in that manner.

You say that people won't decon the gear they need to clear each of these proving grounds, but you forget that gear is easily swapped from character to character.

If a player actually does have a specced tank as well as a specced healer, they just have to reassign cp, reset their morphs and slot the gear they made for their tank.

If this is a one and done type thing, the benefit quite outweighs the cost, as people would then be "verified" as tanks, which would make the experience even worse for people that have problems in a group with a "fake" tank. That false sense of security will be eroded quickly and we are now back at square one with even more jaded people.

The easiest way to limit a player when it comes to tanking is to automatically assign a taunt to the person who is claiming tank. If they do not have either of the taunts (sword/shield or undaunted) they can not queue as tank. You would then have to limit their ability to remove that taunt while they are in the queue group.

You could in theory do the same thing for healers, but with the amount of class healing skills, it would be a bit different and muddier than tanking.

Making people do something in order to do another thing is going to invariably *** certain people off and they will do anything they can to disrupt that simply out of spite.

ZeroXFF

yodased wrote: »

Making people do something in order to do another thing is going to invariably *** certain people off and they will do anything they can to disrupt that simply out of spite.

That's why I said there should be the option to queue for things you're not qualified for, but you accept that others wouldn't be qualified either. That way you skip the proving grounds, and can still do the content, but you're likely to be stuck with a bad group, unless you go premade.

yodased wrote: »

This game, however, does not have any of those limitation and is presented as different than the rest specifically in that manner.

You say that people won't decon the gear they need to clear each of these proving grounds, but you forget that gear is easily swapped from character to character.

If a player actually does have a specced tank as well as a specced healer, they just have to reassign cp, reset their morphs and slot the gear they made for their tank.

But then you can tell the people to go grab the right gear. This qualification would prove that they have the gear and skills to do it, and they can no longer argue with the queue times, they would also have to justify why they didn't just go in as a tank/healer proper and skipped the queue time anyways. And if all the other people are qualified, they would have no reason not to go with a correct role.

redspecter23

I think option number 1 could work. For those uninterested in roles, they can just do a fast queue, possibly just tossing 4 people together of any combination of roles. You could set more limitations, but it could overcomplicate it. It might work very well for specific dungeons and non vets, but for dlc dungeons and more specifically randoms that include dlcs and vet dlcs in the pool, it starts to get problematic. 4 dps end up in March of Sacrifices, even on normal. How would that go? If they are strong, they will probably do ok. If it's 4 average dps that just wanted a faster queue (as is the entire reason you have fake tanks/healers anyway), it would just be a mess.

As always, the absolute easiest solution and the least amount of work for ZOS is for players to just use the dungeon finder as a last resort instead of the first one. Guilds, friends, zone, etc and queue up to fill in the gaps. It's not what people want. We all seem to want to just press a button and be instantly sent to our content, but the mechanics of the game keep that from being quite so simple when you have a large difficulty disparity in random dungeons as well as a massive gap in player skill level.

ZeroXFF

@redspecter23
4DDs in March of Sacrifices would do just as well or poorly as they do now, except now you'll have people that actually signed up for this mess, and get exactly the experience they wanted.

For you it's not any different if you queued for a random as a fake tank now and got MoS (except that you're less likely to be kicked with the proposed system). It would however be a huge QoL improvement for those who did not sign up for it.

yodased

ZeroXFF wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Making people do something in order to do another thing is going to invariably *** certain people off and they will do anything they can to disrupt that simply out of spite.

That's why I said there should be the option to queue for things you're not qualified for, but you accept that others wouldn't be qualified either. That way you skip the proving grounds, and can still do the content, but you're likely to be stuck with a bad group, unless you go premade.

yodased wrote: »

This game, however, does not have any of those limitation and is presented as different than the rest specifically in that manner.

You say that people won't decon the gear they need to clear each of these proving grounds, but you forget that gear is easily swapped from character to character.

If a player actually does have a specced tank as well as a specced healer, they just have to reassign cp, reset their morphs and slot the gear they made for their tank.

But then you can tell the people to go grab the right gear. This qualification would prove that they have the gear and skills to do it, and they can no longer argue with the queue times, they would also have to justify why they didn't just go in as a tank/healer proper and skipped the queue time anyways. And if all the other people are qualified, they would have no reason not to go with a correct role.

You ever tried to tell someone to change their gear in a pug? Next time you queue up, ask the tank what gear and/or skills they are using or try to tell the healer what to run. Be prepared though, as that will not be met well.

Person a: Go put on your tank gear.
Person b: not nice words.

You are not dealing with people who care about anything other than their progress or shiny that they want. They don't care that you are upset, they don't care that you feel they are wasting your time, they don't care about you in any way.

Even if they do get kicked, they have a 15 minute cooldown which is going to be a shorter wait to repop as a tank than to queue as a dps.

Anything less than 4 or less kicks is going to get them into a dungeon faster.

oxygen_thief

proven what? do you want to make me waste time for some stupid tests before i will be allowed to do a random run? go away

redspecter23

ZeroXFF wrote: »

@redspecter23
4DDs in March of Sacrifices would do just as well or poorly as they do now, except now you'll have people that actually signed up for this mess, and get exactly the experience they wanted.

Fair enough. Those that queue for that will fully expect to be in there with 3 other dps. I would assume as much when I sign up. However, those people may also be gambling that they may get an easier dungeon. It might be impossible for their group to complete MoS but they would breeze through Fungal Grotto 1. This is more of an issue with the dungeon difficulty disparity, but you will have players that still get upset, even though the queue isn't really at fault for their failure in MoS. They very likely need a tank for that dungeon especially if it's vet (though I can't see why you would use this fast queue option for a random vet. That's just asking for trouble).

ZeroXFF

oxygen_thief wrote: »

proven what? do you want to make me waste time for some stupid tests before i will be allowed to do a random run? go away

Read the first post again if you think that that's what I'm suggesting.

ZeroXFF

yodased wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Making people do something in order to do another thing is going to invariably *** certain people off and they will do anything they can to disrupt that simply out of spite.

That's why I said there should be the option to queue for things you're not qualified for, but you accept that others wouldn't be qualified either. That way you skip the proving grounds, and can still do the content, but you're likely to be stuck with a bad group, unless you go premade.

yodased wrote: »

This game, however, does not have any of those limitation and is presented as different than the rest specifically in that manner.

You say that people won't decon the gear they need to clear each of these proving grounds, but you forget that gear is easily swapped from character to character.

If a player actually does have a specced tank as well as a specced healer, they just have to reassign cp, reset their morphs and slot the gear they made for their tank.

But then you can tell the people to go grab the right gear. This qualification would prove that they have the gear and skills to do it, and they can no longer argue with the queue times, they would also have to justify why they didn't just go in as a tank/healer proper and skipped the queue time anyways. And if all the other people are qualified, they would have no reason not to go with a correct role.

You ever tried to tell someone to change their gear in a pug? Next time you queue up, ask the tank what gear and/or skills they are using or try to tell the healer what to run. Be prepared though, as that will not be met well.

Person a: Go put on your tank gear.
Person b: not nice words.

You are not dealing with people who care about anything other than their progress or shiny that they want. They don't care that you are upset, they don't care that you feel they are wasting your time, they don't care about you in any way.

Even if they do get kicked, they have a 15 minute cooldown which is going to be a shorter wait to repop as a tank than to queue as a dps.

Anything less than 4 or less kicks is going to get them into a dungeon faster.

And they would complete it a lot faster if they didn't get kicked because of queuing as a fake with qualified people. The very reason for going as a fake is to make things faster, my proposal does exactly that by making sure you get good enough players in your group (if you opt for it).

yodased

But you are then requiring the "qualified" players to police themselves, all you are doing is putting a barrier of entry that is very easily bypassed by the people that want to bypass it.

The reason that tanks especially pop immediately is because there is a significant shortage of tanks in the game, healers is a bit better, but still dps outpaces them by an exponential amount.

Putting arbitrary limitations on players is not a good way to entice players to do content, what you are proposing is basically creating a dungeon guild out of every single person that would want to queue for random dungeons.

What happens to the players that want to do a random dungeon but they can't pull the dps or can't survive your test? They are S.O.L?

I will gladly take a learning DPS into a dungeon and make sure I can help them learn and bring them up to the level they want to be at.

This system simply excludes people from being able to improve their skills in a random environment.

If you feel this strongly about it, don't random queue, join a pve guild that already has the tests you have outlined to be in their guild.

Being exclusionary is not the right move, in my opinion.

ZeroXFF

yodased wrote: »

The reason that tanks especially pop immediately is because there is a significant shortage of tanks in the game, healers is a bit better, but still dps outpaces them by an exponential amount.

There would be more tanks in the queue if there wasn't a ton of really bad DDs in there too. The bad DDs are the reason why tanks don't queue for randoms. This system would solve it by allowing qualified tanks to just say that they will only run with qualified DDs.

yodased wrote: »

This system simply excludes people from being able to improve their skills in a random environment.

No it doesn't. That's why I'm not suggesting to make it apply to everyone but give people the ability to opt into these checks. It's not a barrier to entry for you, it's a way to filter the people you would want to run with.

AcadianPaladin

@ZeroXFF the ideas you bring up have been discussed before and you've presented them in a well-considered manner.

A 'non-traditional' group option is a good one as it allows more flexibility for dps characters who so choose to shorten their pug queues without lying about their role and denying those expecting a real healer and tank the benefits thereof.

I have always wished the Undaunted provided some role training opportunities. As much for my self-evaluation/confidence regarding my role as for 'screening' groups who agree to use the option when queuing.

My main is a healer and you mentioned you are not that familiar with healing as you proposed some healer training considerations. My own thinking is that buffs and debuffs are nice and I do provide them but Job #1 is healing. In a challenging group vs boss fight my healer challenges herself to think like this: "I can heal my group faster and better than you can hurt them!" The challenges she faces while doing so are not dying herself nor running out of magicka.

The details of any Undaunted training can be worked out of course but I endorse your thinking!

yodased

ZeroXFF wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

The reason that tanks especially pop immediately is because there is a significant shortage of tanks in the game, healers is a bit better, but still dps outpaces them by an exponential amount.

There would be more tanks in the queue if there wasn't a ton of really bad DDs in there too. The bad DDs are the reason why tanks don't queue for randoms. This system would solve it by allowing qualified tanks to just say that they will only run with qualified DDs.

yodased wrote: »

This system simply excludes people from being able to improve their skills in a random environment.

No it doesn't. That's why I'm not suggesting to make it apply to everyone but give people the ability to opt into these checks. It's not a barrier to entry for you, it's a way to filter the people you would want to run with.

It's a way for YOU to filter who YOU want to run with, I personally don't have any issues with fake tanks or healers if I am queuing into a random. I rarely dps in dungeons in the first place, but if I was and I hit a queue with a "fake" one, I would just adapt.

Sure if you are running the highest dps requirement or a newer dungeon that has a lot of one-bangers you shouldn't expect to be able to random through that anyway.

A "filter" is just the label you are putting on a barrier of entry.

temjiu

I think the problem with the idea is that it doesn't take into account the foundational reason people queue unfairly in the first place:

1) people queue as fake tank to shorten queue times, and those queue times are long because...
2) most people don't want to play a real tank, and they don't want to play a real tank because...
3) the pressure of being in the "spotlight" and the negative feedback from people when you screw up. even if you run with a good group, the pressure is still there, and many people don't want to deal with that pressure. So they just take the easier router which is DPS. And then you have the group of people who don't care enough to either tank right or queue right, and they make the game bad for the bulk of the population.

So not enough tanks = longer queue times = people who don't care trying to bypass said times by queueing as fake tank. You can insert healer in place of tank, it's the same scenario. And the same people that queue as fake tank will gear up in a tank set and set themselves up just enough to pass the "tank" trial so they can queue as tank, then go back to their DPS squishiness. It won't solve the problem.

Other games solve the problem by locking players into a role based on class. you want to queue as a tank? you need to be on a TANK CLASS. Then through a simple process of entry quests they can teach you the basics of tanking (FFXIV does this well with it's new system). However, even with these limitations, queue times for DPS in games that do this are still longer then tank/healer. People just don't like playing the roles as much...this will always be there. As will the rude and uncaring populace who take advantage of roles and queues.

The easiest solution in this game would be to simply take challenging content out of the game so you don't need a tank, or lock classes down. Now, how many people are really going to be OK with that?

I should probably state for the record that I find fake queueing abhorrent behavior, and I personally wait the 30m or so on my DPS toon. I deal with the penalty for playing the most common role, and people who bypass that I personally feel there is a special place in hades waiting for them. But it doesn't change the real reason the behavior exists in the first place.

An alternative would also be to increase the standard group size. 5 man group = one more DPS slot = 20% increase in available DPS slots. or you could go the route of early LotRO and do 3 man and 6 man for smaller group events. 6 man = 50% increase of available DPS slots over the 4 man.

kargen27

ZeroXFF wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

The reason that tanks especially pop immediately is because there is a significant shortage of tanks in the game, healers is a bit better, but still dps outpaces them by an exponential amount.

There would be more tanks in the queue if there wasn't a ton of really bad DDs in there too. The bad DDs are the reason why tanks don't queue for randoms. This system would solve it by allowing qualified tanks to just say that they will only run with qualified DDs.

yodased wrote: »

This system simply excludes people from being able to improve their skills in a random environment.

No it doesn't. That's why I'm not suggesting to make it apply to everyone but give people the ability to opt into these checks. It's not a barrier to entry for you, it's a way to filter the people you would want to run with.

It does exclude players be dividing the number of players into separate queues. You are basically creating a group of players that will run with any other player and a group of players that will only run with good players. If the test is easy enough a new tank can pass then it is easy enough for my healers or DPS to pass. My healer already has heavy gear for when I PvP and with self heals and shields she can take a much harder hit than some tanks can take. If you make a test for tanks so difficult my healer can't pass then you are essentially forcing players new to tanking into running only with other new players that probably were unable or unwilling to pass their respective tests.

Biggest problem with the idea though is that is doesn't fix the problem of fake tanks and healers at all. Not even a little bit. Players fake queue usually because they want the daily random reward and do not want to spend a lot of time doing it. A quick test isn't going to change their thinking nor their behavior. Unfortunately the only real fix to this problem is for we the players to quit tolerating the behavior.

FrancisCrawford

The core problem, as always, is a mechanism that expects groups to be reasonably well constituted for Banished Cells 1 and Scalecaller Peak alike. That can't be done. A group that can handle the latter will be bored to tears by the former.

ZeroXFF

@temjiu
The proving grounds + the associated filter would solve most of the problems you mention. A lot of *real* tanks queue as DDs because the DDs they end up with are bad. This would make sure that does not happen. So the tanks that are present will actually have no reason (besides their mood) to not go in.

Furthermore, the new tanks would no longer have to be afraid of bad performance because they can test their build in the proving grounds, and get a score and see where they would be doing fine.

As for your suggestion with increasing the standard group size, yeah, that would fit the criteria. The question would be just what are the exact proportions for each role, and do they change over time? Because what makes queues faster now could make them slower later.

ZeroXFF

@kargen27 @FrancisCrawford
That's why there are different score requirements for different dungeons. You may very well be able to do the tank test with your healer to get access to all non-dlc vets, but I'm pretty sure your healer will have a hard time reaching requirements of vFL, vFH and vMHK. If you get those scores, you're likely good enough as a tank on your healer, and you know how to use a taunt, so you're not a fake tank by most people's definitions.

As for the speed argument, I already addressed it multiple times. Yes, it would be faster, that's based on feedback from tanks from other such threads.

kargen27

ZeroXFF wrote: »

@kargen27 @FrancisCrawford
That's why there are different score requirements for different dungeons. You may very well be able to do the tank test with your healer to get access to all non-dlc vets, but I'm pretty sure your healer will have a hard time reaching requirements of vFL, vFH and vMHK. If you get those scores, you're likely good enough as a tank on your healer, and you know how to use a taunt, so you're not a fake tank by most people's definitions.

As for the speed argument, I already addressed it multiple times. Yes, it would be faster, that's based on feedback from tanks from other such threads.

I forgot about that part. That is even a worse idea. Much much worse. Now you want a test for each dungeon. And you would be surprised what my healer in my PvP gear can withstand but that is a non issue for this conversation. People already get a group together using one low level player to make sure they get an easy dungeon for the random daily. Now they can also just pass the test for the lowest dungeon as a tank, get the lowest dungeon even though they queued for random and do nothing but DPS. You are also locking players out of content based on arbitrary numbers and skill sets. That goes against just about everything this game is advertised to be.

You also haven't addressed the issue of wanting a fast run at all. If a player simply want the reward he gets at the end of the run and doesn't care about others he will go with the quickest queue. The quickest queue will be the willing to run with anybody queue and because there is a shortage of tanks queuing as a fake tank is still the quickest way to get a group even with your idea.

Let's forget about healers for a bit in this scenario because you don't find a lot of healers queuing as a fake tank. There are a lot of players that can easily with a few changes make their DPS very tanky. There are builds for surviving vMA for all kinds of DPS types. Those builds would probably work for any fair tank test. Then they just switch back to their full damage build and off they go.

temjiu

ZeroXFF wrote: »

@temjiu
The proving grounds + the associated filter would solve most of the problems you mention. A lot of *real* tanks queue as DDs because the DDs they end up with are bad. This would make sure that does not happen. So the tanks that are present will actually have no reason (besides their mood) to not go in.

Furthermore, the new tanks would no longer have to be afraid of bad performance because they can test their build in the proving grounds, and get a score and see where they would be doing fine.

As for your suggestion with increasing the standard group size, yeah, that would fit the criteria. The question would be just what are the exact proportions for each role, and do they change over time? Because what makes queues faster now could make them slower later.

I do agree that it's not a bad thing. players with more skill can make those runs better/easier. But I think we simply diverge on our personal opinion of what creates the scenario. For me, I don't believe it's lack of skill...if you really want to tank all you need to do is start a tank at level one and queue for dungeons, you'll get experience in tanking in short order... if you try. Those that are unwilling to try are not going to suddenly grow a conscience and decide that fulfilling roles will benefit them, and they won't learn this in a trial.

Again, it's the simple issue that most people don't WANT to play the role...not that they can't. Anyone who is willing to play the role will eventually learn how. Having trials will aid those people, but they would have probably learned the roles anyways. As an example...I can tank in this game, done it plenty of times before, hard and easy content. But it doesn't mean that I enjoy it or that I will decide to tank just because I can practice it solo.

However, there is a portion of people that would be willing to learn the role if it meant they could learn it outside the pressure of group performance. In that light, I agree with you...it would provide more tanks and reduce the queue somewhat. But it wouldn't eliminate those who simply don't care. My evidence is from other MMO's that already have those gates in place, yet the queues for DPS are still quite long, while Queues for tanks and heals in those games are still instant. It's just that in those games, you can't fake queue. Your solution will help BAD tanks and heals, not fake ones. But much like the increased group size, it will alleviate queues somewhat, so It's not a bad idea.

I don't like the concept of segregation though. It will only divide the community more, and create an even greater demand for roles that are scarce to begin with. The only people that will be rewarded in that scenario are most likely those that would end up grouping with guild members or friends to begin with, hence they're not the problem.

ZeroXFF

@temjiu
The "segregation" that you don't like will make sure that the existing tanks actually want to queue as tanks rather than switch to a DD. The reason I don't do pledges on my DK trial tank any more is because scenarios like this would be much more painful if I wasn't on my magplar hybrid tank in this group:

This was CoH1, the Ilambris twins, so 2 DDs did together less than 10k DPS (because don't forget the healer) while the bosses were stacked for comfortable cleaving. Helping bad DDs helps bring good tanks back to the RDF, and allowing good tanks to exclude bad DDs creates an incentive for the bad DDs to get better. This system is much better than just simply kicking low CP people at the start of a dungeon.

@kargen27
Yes, I have addressed the speed, literally in the post above the one you quoted.

And yeah, you can still go in as a fake, but give me one reason, why you would. I mean rational, not just people who love to be trolls. Because what I'm proposing creates an incentive structure that discourages fakes, by making the queue length difference for different roles smaller, and thereby lowering the threshold of other people for kicking fakes (thereby extending the wait times for the fakes, and discouraging them from being fakes). The only people who might encounter a significant number of fakes are those that opt out of this filtering system, which again creates an incentive for the non-fakes in that queue to get better to be able to do the content they want with people who are guaranteed to be qualified for it.

This may not close the waiting gap entirely, and some people will still put up with fakes instead of kicking them, but cutting the number of fakes by half would already be a huge success.

kargen27

ZeroXFF wrote: »

@temjiu
The "segregation" that you don't like will make sure that the existing tanks actually want to queue as tanks rather than switch to a DD. The reason I don't do pledges on my DK trial tank any more is because scenarios like this would be much more painful if I wasn't on my magplar hybrid tank in this group:

This was CoH1, the Ilambris twins, so 2 DDs did together less than 10k DPS (because don't forget the healer) while the bosses were stacked for comfortable cleaving. Helping bad DDs helps bring good tanks back to the RDF, and allowing good tanks to exclude bad DDs creates an incentive for the bad DDs to get better. This system is much better than just simply kicking low CP people at the start of a dungeon.

@kargen27
Yes, I have addressed the speed, literally in the post above the one you quoted.

And yeah, you can still go in as a fake, but give me one reason, why you would. I mean rational, not just people who love to be trolls. Because what I'm proposing creates an incentive structure that discourages fakes, by making the queue length difference for different roles smaller, and thereby lowering the threshold of other people for kicking fakes (thereby extending the wait times for the fakes, and discouraging them from being fakes). The only people who might encounter a significant number of fakes are those that opt out of this filtering system, which again creates an incentive for the non-fakes in that queue to get better to be able to do the content they want with people who are guaranteed to be qualified for it.

This may not close the waiting gap entirely, and some people will still put up with fakes instead of kicking them, but cutting the number of fakes by half would already be a huge success.

You didn't address the speed issue at all anywhere in the thread other than to say it was addressed in other threads.

You would go as a fake tank for the same reason you do now. To get to the front of the line. Your idea creates two separate queues. Tanks are already in short supply and you want to divide them even farther. The queue for players wanting a qualified players is going to be the slower queue. That means people in a hurry are going to queue in the I don't care how good they are queue. It will be the fastest queue. They will speed up the queue by coming in as a fake tank.

Your idea potentially could make queue times for DPS even longer compared to other roles. Best case scenario any decrease in one queue is more than offset by an increase in wait times for all roles in the other queue. That is the absolute best that can happen and you will still have people using fake tanks because there is nothing in your idea discouraging the behavior.

And you still haven't addressed the problem with locking content behind arbitrary numbers and skills. Requiring tanks to conform to a confined build runs against the spirit of the game. For the test to do what you want it would have to be difficult enough to require certain builds that would not be required at all to successfully play the role in a group.

ZeroXFF

kargen27 wrote: »

You didn't address the speed issue at all anywhere in the thread other than to say it was addressed in other threads.

Dude, I'm literally saying it AGAIN in the post you're quoting. Seriously, if you're not going to read what I'm saying, I'm not going to read your stuff. I'll just quote what I already said in regards to queue and completion speed in this thread:

ZeroXFF wrote: »

@temjiu
The "segregation" that you don't like will make sure that the existing tanks actually want to queue as tanks rather than switch to a DD. (...) Helping bad DDs helps bring good tanks back to the RDF (...)

ZeroXFF wrote: »

A lot of *real* tanks queue as DDs because the DDs they end up with are bad. This would make sure that does not happen. So the tanks that are present will actually have no reason (besides their mood) to not go in.

Furthermore, the new tanks would no longer have to be afraid of bad performance because they can test their build in the proving grounds, and get a score and see where they would be doing fine. (...)

ZeroXFF wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

The reason that tanks especially pop immediately is because there is a significant shortage of tanks in the game, healers is a bit better, but still dps outpaces them by an exponential amount.

There would be more tanks in the queue if there wasn't a ton of really bad DDs in there too. The bad DDs are the reason why tanks don't queue for randoms. This system would solve it by allowing qualified tanks to just say that they will only run with qualified DDs.

ZeroXFF wrote: »

And they would complete it a lot faster if they didn't get kicked because of queuing as a fake with qualified people. The very reason for going as a fake is to make things faster, my proposal does exactly that by making sure you get good enough players in your group (if you opt for it).

If you're still going to say I didn't address the speed, I'll just assume you're trolling.

FrancisCrawford

temjiu wrote: »

As for the speed argument, I already addressed it multiple times. Yes, it would be faster, that's based on feedback from tanks from other such threads.

Could you please rephrase it (if it was in this thread), or else link to the thread(s) in which you did?

wolf486

The main thing I'd like to see with random dungeons is the ability to turn off DLC dungeons. Once I hit a certain level with my characters I just stop doing randoms anymore.

temjiu

@ZeroXFF
I think were still at an impasse. You believe that tanks don't queue because of bad DPS, and they form the bulk of they players that would tank. I believe that most players don't play tanks due to perceived pressure and being in the "spotlight". Your position comes from the perspective of someone who tanks regularly in the game (and seems to like it from the sound of it...your still doing it?), My perspective comes from someone who plays whatever role is needed, and quite often just plays what I want.

I don't think that either perception is wrong, I do think that ultimately it boils down to this: How many players are "tanks" that don't want to tank due to bad DPS vs. how many players simply don't like tanking in its current form, or don't want to bother. based on decades of playing MMO's in various forms and shapes, I believe the latter is the cause of long queues.

and your position on queue speeds with the segregation model is again based on your presumptions about tanking, how many people really WANT to tank, and who would tank with trials in place. I can't say that my assumption is more correct then yours, but they are both assumptions. And in my history of MMO's, I've found that tanking is a role that fits a select group of players, It takes a willingness to adapt to a mindset that your average player doesn't want to do. thus creating a "haven" for those who want to tank won't affect the playerbase.

were probably just mincing words in a debate over apples vs. oranges, when the arguments was "is fruit good", since both our ideas would help to a degree. The one area we'll probably just have to agree to disagree is the segregation issue. I have yet to see ANY MMO that segregated its playerbase that saw improvements in numbers and queue times. Quite the opposite...most MMO's have to congregate players to reduce queue times.

However, this doesn't dissuade from one definite weakness with ESO: There is no real progressive learning path for classes in general. For the most part, solo play is EZ mode, and nothing is really challenging until you hit harder dungeons where it's almost brutal in its difference. One of the things I loved about FFXIV is how they integrated learning your class and its abilities into the class progression. by the time you hit level cap, you knew most of the classes abilities and potential, and with their better balanced group content, most players understood how to play by the time they hit tough content. Here it's EZ....EZ....EZ...thrown to the wolves.

Those training trials would definitely fill that void. I just don't think they would resolve the fake tanking thing as you think. Again, they would fix BAD tanks, BAD healers, and BAD DD (added that one due to the conversation). But they wouldn't cure FAKE tanking/heals/DD.

idk

It is great to think of ideas, but it is also wise to think about what Zos would consider and how to sell them on it.

The idea presented, besides being far to involved for a mere normal dungeon, which is where all this starts, it also puts Zos into a position of clearly telling players they are not good enough. It has Zos telling players they failed and that is a bad idea for a game designer.

If you want to run with players who are pre-judged form your own group. You can even go with a decent PvE guild since many have ranks based on a players proven ability, but asking Zos do to this for you is just a pipe dream.

Further, the only thing Zos can actually do to prevent fake tanks/healers is to require having a taunt or heal unlocked.

The best thing you can do when faced with a fake tank or fake healer is to kick them from the group. If the rest of the group does not oblige then at least you did what you could. If players started doing this it would go a long way to get rid of fake tanks since they would get tired of not getting their dungeons done after being kicked from group after group.

ruengdet2515

Wasting time to do as you wish and never happen.

Spend time to do new content for more money is better than fix thing what you want.

ZeroXFF

idk wrote: »

It is great to think of ideas, but it is also wise to think about what Zos would consider and how to sell them on it.

The idea presented, besides being far to involved for a mere normal dungeon, which is where all this starts, it also puts Zos into a position of clearly telling players they are not good enough. It has Zos telling players they failed and that is a bad idea for a game designer.

If you want to run with players who are pre-judged form your own group. You can even go with a decent PvE guild since many have ranks based on a players proven ability, but asking Zos do to this for you is just a pipe dream.

Further, the only thing Zos can actually do to prevent fake tanks/healers is to require having a taunt or heal unlocked.

The best thing you can do when faced with a fake tank or fake healer is to kick them from the group. If the rest of the group does not oblige then at least you did what you could. If players started doing this it would go a long way to get rid of fake tanks since they would get tired of not getting their dungeons done after being kicked from group after group.

I don't think it's "too involved". It could easily be a part of the quest that introduces you to pledges, and you'd also get a rundown of what role does what, and how dungeons and the proving grounds are related. That way you'd earn the key you get for that quest.

As for telling players they aren't good enough... Isn't that exactly the same as when they can't complete a dungeon after wiping over and over for hours? If anything, this would be a helpful indicator of your progress, and give confidence to those that do get a green light for certain dungeons.

And you're wrong about what ZOS can do. You're looking for an absolute solution, but creating an environment where there is less incentive to queue as a fake would do wonders too. And yeah, getting kicked is part of it, which would happen a lot more if you sign up for a regular qualified group and get a fake instead.

temjiu

The more I think about role trials, the more I think it could be a fun and positive addition to the game. Not just end game "prove your mettle", but even leveled trails along the way, say every 10 levels another trial opens for you with rewards that make it worth doing. like a set of blue training gear as an example.

And each leveled trial could fit a bit more of the basic role principles into it. like the first one would simply be about teaching block/dodge/bash. the next one could cover AoE vs single target skills. then another about layering attacks skills effectively and weaving in light attacks, etc.

tanking trials would cover stuff like timing blocks, using taunts effectively, and managing add groups. healing, well obviously healing, but adding in effective application of damage spells while healing, and teaching additional support options. and your last one at 50 would tie everything together. then you can explore the vet role trials once you hit X CP level.

Very similar to how FFXIV does it. They could even throw in training around certain class defining skills. they already have the leveling guide that points out suggestions for skills...just add the important base skills into the training. they would have to be class skills since you can't really know what weapons you are using, but still it's not half bad idea. That way it's not a singular gate at level cap where you either make it or not...it's a progressive learning curve so your average joe will have the basic tools by the time they get to that vet level access trial.