much needed combat fixes.

Rungar

1) True global cooldown timer. This is a critical deficiency of this game. Beyond all the get gud and other nonsense the de-linking of light attacks from the global timer hurts this game alot as the disparity in performance creates needless havok. Consider that the worst players spam light attacks and the best players also spam light attacks but in a way that it "works" (weaving). Beyond the inflated dps numbers it is a terrible system in both pvp and pve. Light attack should be a free spammable and there should be attack type options we can select such that my tank or healer can have a reason to use the button other than dps.

Right now light attack is the opposite of what it should be. It gives players advantages in pvp they shouldnt have in terms of exploiting the timers in a often laggy environment not to mention any technology that can maximize this potential. I believe it chases players away from pvp because theyll never "get good" since it might not even be possible or reasonable for them to do so. Players wear heavy armor in pvp to survive burst, which is made worse when a good chunk of that burst is a free light attack ( often times 2, plus the stuff that a light attack can trigger) before you can react due to lag...) that has no bearing on what armor your wearing and no real cost for the attacking player. Exploiting the timers becomes more important than the other attributes. Players dont know this generally as combat in this game isn't well explained. If you don't wear heavy you often don't get to react when a player who knows how to do this targets you whether its skill (or technology).

however fighting players that don't do this you can usually survive just fine in any armor. You at least get a chance to respond. This tells me that there is a technical deficiency in the core combat mechanics that need to be addressed since most players have no idea how these things actually work. Light attack/heavy attack as a spammable that is free with multiple selectable options for the different classes and roles is a simple solution that will also address lag while providing a more reasonable play environment for all the players at reasonable connection speeds and reasonable skill levels.

2) Medium armor. Medium armor requires penetration for the 5pc equipped bonus. It should have ~3650. Get rid of the alkosh set if you have to but this needs to be done to improve pvp and the viability of that armor. Let the tanks wear what they want. Maybe one will show up once and a while.

3) Tanks. The least played role in the game by a factor of maybe 10x. Other than the overuse of one shots tanking isnt actually that bad but there are a few things that can be done to get players interested. The changes in #1 would give tanks a light attack option that might have a short taunt or other reason to use that button. Getting rid of the weaving will actually help tanks as their dps will relatively go up. Right now a good dps can do about 10x the dmg of a specced tank and that does'nt make any sense. Properly specced for their respective roles the difference should be 3-5x max. Right now the disparity is just far to great and its obviously driving players away.

3a) Knockdown resistance: Armor rating should give knockdown resistance, or a chance (doesnt have to be a high chance) to not be knocked down when you get hit by one. The chance should be small until you get to over 31k armor and become a reasonable at around 33k.

3b) One shot resistance. Same as above but rather than just dying you get different, possibly worse effect, that your teammates can do something about. Again available to all but generally reasonable chances starting at 31k to 33k.

3c) increase the dmg of puncture/low slash a bit and redesign reverberating bash to be some sort of stun+dot
3d) option one would provide a light attack option that taunts so that ice staff would be more viable for tanking. Remove the taunt from the heavy attack.

4) Groupfinder. Groupfinder issues are mostly resolved when more players play tanks and when more players are able to do reasonable dps because the system is obvious and not mystical like it is now.

5) Dungeon design. Dungeon design is stagnant in this game. All dungeons are exactly the same. There is no theme variation other than the boss mob mechanics. The focus on boss mechanics as opposed to overall dungeon strategies (even simple ones like kill 1000 zombies in 30 minutes to complete the dungeon). none of this exists. They are all linear mini trials where you progress from one boss to the next and evasion is the most important skill. The current strategy should be reserved for trials but dungeons should be more fun based with differing objectives and themes. Not everything needs to be a boss fight. Im not saying to eliminate this current design but to augment it with new themed dungeons that will peak players interest. at least one of every two released should have a alternative theme.

ESO is a great game but the combat system has critical issues as easily seen by the variation in players. Move away from these arcane systems to something more people are willing to take part in. ESO is neither an esport nor a hardcore game.

Stibbons

Body block in pvp and in wvw. If you hold block button enemy player could not pass you. Not even with dodge rolls. Two skills in wvw skills that could brake this. One magic and one stamina. This would make the fights more realistic and fun perhaps.

More armor you have the slower you would become.

Ragnarock41

1) We still play this game despite our complaining because no cooldowns and weaving allows for really fun and dynamic gameplay, rewards fast thinking and adds depth to combat. Play wow or guild wars 2, if you're a fan of cooldowns.

Really I hate to be the person saying this but learn to play instead of trying to dumb down the game for everybody else, complaining about weaving in 2018....moving on.

2)Medium armor has the best 5th piece bonus I could ask for. Stamina players have a lot of weapon damage modifiers and medium armor 5th piece passive is really good, I would not trade it for penetration.

3)Generic mmo tanks are dumb and boring, No matter which wow clone you play, you will always see that tanks are played by a niche minority because having a meatbag that does nothing but hold his own is a dumb design and it will never work.

Which is why we are ahead of those games, and we have ''tanky bruisers'' instead that trade mobility for having tankyness and damage at the same time, meanwhile medium armor trades tankyness for damage and mobility. Sounds like a very fair trade to me.

Before morrowind, stamDk tanks used to stack a lot of max stamina and as a result they had more than enough damage for killing trash mobs and doing stuff. Blame zos for changing the tanks to become utility slaves for DDs.

I did plenty of tanking with my Dk ,before and after morrowind. And when I wanted to be a PvP beast all I had to do was switch my sets,mundus and boom. I even did vMA on my sword and board heavy armor stamDk. It was a bit of a slow run ( took about an hour or two) but it wasn't a weird thing for a tank do do vMA back then. Nowadays tank meta is completely different and you don't need to stack any max stam or magicka at all, so as result tanks are doing zero damage.


3a) no to RNG mechanics, no offense, just no.

3c)low slash/puncture are already god tier spammables. No other weapon line has a better spammable overall. They are cheap and strong. Also reverb bash as a dot? Nah. Maybe the other morph.

idk

Rungar wrote: »

1) True global cooldown timer.

1. There is a GCD. It is 1 second. Basic attacks are not on the a GCD but that is not really an issue. I do not think we should oversimplify a good combat system because some do not really try or are challenged to get one aspect down.

It does not look like this is something we have to worry about because Zos has clearly made weaving light attacks a more significant part of good DPS two different times in the past year.

2. Medium armor passives and the Alkosh set bonus are not connected by any means. Alkosh is a great set for coordinated group play. It does not make sense that you would want to toss that out the door.

3. This makes no sense. First, there are more tanks than GF makes it look like. Most do not queue because they have enough sense to form groups in their guild and avoid the bad dps often found in GF groups. I have rarely had an issue finding a tank.

3a. Block is knockdown resistance in itself, unless the mechanics is intended to knock anyone down that does not get out of the red telegraphed area.

3b. We have one shot resistance. Everyone has it. It is called deal with the mechanic properly. Granted, Zos has relied heavily on one-shots recently due to being lazy with fight designs, but all it takes is to deal with the mechanic properly.

3c. Not needed. The stun would only be useful in PvP and low slash does well as it is. Maybe offer a reason for what you suggest.

3d. Retrofitting a DPS weapon for tanking was a lazy design to start with. It will not be proper until it is designed right. Putting a band aid on it does not make it all better.


4. Take care of the bad dps in GF and more tanks will likely follow. Decent and good tanks know it is best to form a group from their guilds.

5. Just does not make sense. I question if this thread is about ESO at this point. Clearly OP is has not seen the DLC dungeons or trials past Craglorn. It almost appears that OP is suggesting a dungeon mechanic requiring us to kill 1000 zombies in 30 minutes is a good mechanic that should be added to ESO dungeons. Sounds pretty boring to me. I think I would rather the one shot and not avoid the mechanic.

Rungar

that is the issue though. You can play this game just fine without ever pressing the light attack button. All it does is pad dmg and opens up the game for all sorts of mischief. It causes more trouble than its worth.

1) it generates lag. Your requests to zos are literally doubled for 20% extra dmg. Whether or not you press the light attack button the game is still fast. I would bet most wouldnt even notice. Based on my pug tank/healer experience i rarely see good dps which tells me few actually do that. Don't complain about lag in cyro or trials if you defend this system.

2) This system is completely exploitable which is why it has that mystical quality. The best dmg parses show light attacks as the highest dmg and often by a very large margin. This is a free skill that requires no resources. The "technique" also only works for one of the three roles, and not every class equally.

it seems to me that chasing people from content is the goal of this system. From what im seeing nobody is getting good. Either way you spin it the system is a failure.

Vapirko

You won’t notice actual combat effects from latency until you get up into the 250-300+ latency range. Everything in the 100s is basically par for the course. If you happen to be able to maintain a ping of below 100 then yes I suppose you could have a considerable advantage. But most people in the US get in the low 100s unless something is seriuously wrong with your isp or hardware and perhaps a few outstanding location issues. And anything below 250 is doable if not great. But honestly LA weaving in PvP is still possible even at 280-300 ping, I know because I do it. What will really kick your ass at that latency is CC delays and CC break delay, and when abilities occasionally pile up because of the delay, although that happens at low latencies too occasionally.

fred4

Regarding point 1, am I understanding correctly that you want to get rid of light attack animation cancelling? Yawn. Don't waste our time:

(1) Grim Focus depends on it.
(2) Imbue Weapon depends on it.
(3) Siphoning Strikes depends on it.
(4) Lotus Flower depends on it.
(5) ... depends on it.
(6) Magicka classes depend on it as the only way of procing enchants. (Could be easily changed, I guess).

You want deep changes to the combat system? Great (<-- sarcasm). We'll never arrive at a balanced game. Can we please just stop with the drastic changes?

I agree that many things are poorly explained or plain lack explanation. Complexity, however, is what makes the game. I would be against accomodating new players by reducing it.

jcm2606

1. Any technical deficiency between the floor and the ceiling generally isn't an issue with weaving in itself, though, is it? You said it yourself, "Players dont know this generally as combat in this game isn't well explained." The game does next to nothing in actually teaching players about the deeper aspects of combat, such as weaving. (The skill advisor has a hint that directs players towards weaving, however that isn't anywhere near adequate, and prior to the addition of the skill advisor, the game did literally nothing to educate players on weaving.)

This extends past weaving, too. The tutorial(s) completely neglect numerous core combat mechanics, including: penetration, direct damage versus damage over time, what constitutes melee damage, how glyphs proc, how stats truly influence your character's performance, etc. The game needs to do a far better job at educating players on the intricacies of the combat system.

2. Penetration in PVE content is largely a non-issue, as players have just shifted to getting the extra penetration from other sources, namely CP and the Lover mundus. In PVP, lack of penetration compared to light is offset by the numerous multipliers against weapon damage, including the 12% (soon to be 15%) from medium armour. There's a reason most stam builds in PVP run weapon damage sets, because stam can stack into weapon damage very well.

3. Really can't bring anything to this point, as I don't tank, and other people have countered this point already.

4. There are other issues with group finder, outside of long and broken queue times. Queues miraculously failing many times in a row, even though nobody declined? A group member being kicked from group the moment they port in? The group spontaneously disbanding the moment they port out of the instance after completion, even if it was formed previously before queuing? None of these would be addressed by throwing more tanks at the group finder.

5. Similar to point 3, @idk countered this point perfectly.

fred4

The point on dungeon design has me thinking. The first thing that comes to mind is One Tamriel. Dungeon difficulty and boss health was adjusted in that patch, and not for the better IMO. Bosses got more health. No doubt this was done to prevent groups from burning them too quickly, but dungeons have just felt tedious to me since then. However I used to solo some of them (on what is now vet mode), so I have an unreasonable bias. In a broad sense, though, the design principle of vMA, lots of enemies that hit medium hard, but don't take long to kill, seems better to me.

The fire has gone out of IC as well, since it was nerfed. There was a time when you could seriously damage mobs by reflecting attacks. Now you can't, since individual NPC attack strength is so pitful.

While no one is a fan of one shots, I am actually not a fan of special dungeon mechanics full stop. This began with being drafted into the final fight of Blackheart Haven as my very first dungeon, turned into a skeleton, and thus unable to help the group. Appalling. All I had learnt, up to that point, was rendered moot by a stupid dungeon mechanic. I am still appalled by bosses ignoring even just little details of the combat engine, such as snaring you and not being able to counteract that with Forward Momentum.

If it was up to me, dungeons would be better if NPCs all obeyed the same rules as everyone else, same as in PvP. Except for one thing: DSA. DSA is actually designed that way for the most part, and I find it, today, one of the most boring things to play. It's just tedious. I'd love to know what it was like before One Tamriel, as I never played it back then.

twofaced

fred4 wrote: »

(6) Magicka classes depend on it as the only way of procing enchants. (Could be easily changed, I guess).

Ridiculous! Read latest changes about enchantments. It's already wall of elements to proc damage and weapon damage could be fired with heavy lightning.

GCD is very edgy way to determine player skill.

Aznox

1) True global cooldown timer.

You can keep making the game easier and easier, players that (unlike you ?) are willing to learn and progress will always be above on a leaderboard, be it PvE or PvP.

That is unless they get bored and leave. Is what you are looking for ?

If i'm bad at Chess but i don't want to lose most of the time, i'll go play Checkers instead. I'm not going to try and dumb down Chess rules.

Rungar

so pressing one extra button every 450ms, and the same button, somehow elevates & adds some mystical complexity layer to the game?

please.

really whats occurring is that all the other parts that are well designed are being diminished.

fred4

twofaced wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

(6) Magicka classes depend on it as the only way of procing enchants. (Could be easily changed, I guess).

Ridiculous! Read latest changes about enchantments. It's already wall of elements to proc damage and weapon damage could be fired with heavy lightning.

Sorry, I forget that I play a lot PvP builds without weapon skills, so this problem is only specific to my builds. Less likely to happen on stamina builds though.

redspecter23

Weaving is an important part of the game. To simply remove it at this point would create massive disruption in game balance. Even more than just regular old tweaking ZOS does every update. They would have to be willing to redo combat from the ground up and rebalance pve content around that. It's far too much work. I'd say just learn to weave.

Aznox

Rungar wrote: »

so pressing one extra button every 450ms, and the same button, somehow elevates & adds some mystical complexity layer to the game?

please.

really whats occurring is that all the other parts that are well designed are being diminished.

First, let's get factual, light attack weaving happens at most once per sec, so every 1000ms.

Second, yes this mechanic adds more than just mechanical skill/complexity, it is a part of build choices, for example do i slot my ranged class spamable on a dual wield bar for maximum weapon damage, or do it slot it on a bow bar to be able to fully perform at any range ? Do aim to sustain a full light attack rotation or do i plan on making heavy attack weaving ? etc..

Anyway on the matter of simplifying the gameplay, you have your opinion and i have mine, this will always be matter to debate, but the fact is that this mechanic is tied to so many aspects of the game that i consider unrealistic - and as such, a waste of time - the idea of ZoS putting in hundreds of man-hours to rework it at this point of the game's life.

Raraaku

Devs have double downed on the weaving mechanic, it's not going away any time soon, which means no LA GCD.

A very simple change in 1H&Shield could fix probably the biggest issue that turns players off from playing a tank build in ESO. That is to scale 1H&Shield damage off of health and not stamina as their resource pool; it would have to be roughly 50% scaling since health gives a bigger stat change when invested in. Tanks shouldn't be able to compete with DPS in terms of damage output. Being able to do 7-9k if your playing more aggressively would be a much appreciated change, not just in terms of group content but for solo/overland content as well. People don't like to main tanks because questing with one is absolutely excruciatingly boring and drawn out. Also, if a tank weaves, they actually increase their DPS, not lower it.

I agree on dungeon design, but not with your suggestion. I'd like to see dungeon boss mechanics that target certain roles and require those roles to adapt during certain phases of the fight. Having some type of enraged mechanic being implemented would help a lot of what's wrong with end-game content; which is that some groups can simply burn a boss down so quickly that they don't have to worry about the more interesting mechanics in a raid/dungeon. The Devs are aware of this and are looking into ways on how to solve this problem; but being able to find a way to threaten a group from blitzing a boss down so quickly and force a more rhythmic pace as the fight evolves would go a long, long way in group content design.

Does ESO have problems and pain points right now? Of course. Is there ever an MMO that doesn't have it's own problems and flaws? Nope. Fortunately, the developers are taking initiative of gathering feedback from players and listening to our concerns.

Rungar

with weaving you press a button every 1/2 ish second. LA>.Skill..LA. The interval is one second between light attacks. So within one second you can theoretically get 1 skill and 2 light attacks off, bleeds, enchantment effects and a proc. If there is any lag at all that could be doubled and add an dawnbreaker just in case.

this is why everyone has to wear heavy armor in pvp. Burst is too high.

all these issues that keep coming up over and over is because of that timer but you will never see. Dps in this game is broken and that is largely due to the light attack separate GCD. heavy attacks arent so bad because heavy takes a long time to do, relatively speaking.

complain about heavy armor in pvp ...
complain about lag in pvp and trials...
crap dps in dungeons...
no tanks because of crap dps...

it is what it is. Being in denial of it wont fix it. Whether you like it or not it is the root cause.

I want a great game same as you. Im just more specialized for finding root causes.

Ragnarock41

Rungar wrote: »

with weaving you press a button every 1/2 ish second. LA>.Skill..LA. The interval is one second between light attacks. So within one second you can theoretically get 1 skill and 2 light attacks off, bleeds, enchantment effects and a proc. If there is any lag at all that could be doubled and add an dawnbreaker just in case.

this is why everyone has to wear heavy armor in pvp. Burst is too high.

all these issues that keep coming up over and over is because of that timer but you will never see. Dps in this game is broken and that is largely due to the light attack separate GCD. heavy attacks arent so bad because heavy takes a long time to do, relatively speaking.

complain about heavy armor in pvp ...
complain about lag in pvp and trials...
crap dps in dungeons...
no tanks because of crap dps...

it is what it is. Being in denial of it wont fix it. Whether you like it or not it is the root cause.

I want a great game same as you. Im just more specialized for finding root causes.

You're getting seriously delusional at this point. You're acting like you know the root of every problem ever while in reality you know so little.

Lag because of weaving? Ha meta because of weaving? tanks bad because of weaving? Can you just go on and admit that you suck at weaving already?

Rungar

i actually dont play dps. just tanks, sometimes healers and snipe spammer in pvp.

Even my pug tank is retired. Dps is getting worse all the time. Its getting worse because its a crap system players dont take to.

who is delusional.

Tannus15

I get 17k+ dps single target on my sorc tank, you just need to build for it.

Knight-errant & storm-knight with stormfist monster set, put all attributes into stamina and you'll still have 30k health, 30k resists.
DW on the back bar for blade cloak.

4 person dungeons, with the exception of maybe blood root forge, don't require serious, perma-block trial meta tanks. In fact, you're making it harder for everyone if that's what you bring. What you want is something tough enough to not die but with enough self heals to be self sufficient and enough utility or damage to help the group.

It's exactly the same for healers. you want a bunch of dots like elemental blockade you can cycle through between heals. No healer in 4 person content should be doing under 10k dps, ideally you should be pulling 20k+ if you know the mechanics of the fight and know when to heal and when to dps.

Darkenarlol

Stopped at 'omg waving is bad bla-bla' guess all that wall of text it at same clueless level of ...

Let's just say bad incompetent and most likely unwilling to learn player

L2p and don't try to bring all trash mechanics from your previous mmo

adeptusminor

No thank you.

Drdeath20

idk wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

1) True global cooldown timer.

1. There is a GCD. It is 1 second. Basic attacks are not on the a GCD but that is not really an issue. I do not think we should oversimplify a good combat system because some do not really try or are challenged to get one aspect down.

It does not look like this is something we have to worry about because Zos has clearly made weaving light attacks a more significant part of good DPS two different times in the past year.

2. Medium armor passives and the Alkosh set bonus are not connected by any means. Alkosh is a great set for coordinated group play. It does not make sense that you would want to toss that out the door.

3. This makes no sense. First, there are more tanks than GF makes it look like. Most do not queue because they have enough sense to form groups in their guild and avoid the bad dps often found in GF groups. I have rarely had an issue finding a tank.

3a. Block is knockdown resistance in itself, unless the mechanics is intended to knock anyone down that does not get out of the red telegraphed area.

3b. We have one shot resistance. Everyone has it. It is called deal with the mechanic properly. Granted, Zos has relied heavily on one-shots recently due to being lazy with fight designs, but all it takes is to deal with the mechanic properly.

3c. Not needed. The stun would only be useful in PvP and low slash does well as it is. Maybe offer a reason for what you suggest.

3d. Retrofitting a DPS weapon for tanking was a lazy design to start with. It will not be proper until it is designed right. Putting a band aid on it does not make it all better.


4. Take care of the bad dps in GF and more tanks will likely follow. Decent and good tanks know it is best to form a group from their guilds.

5. Just does not make sense. I question if this thread is about ESO at this point. Clearly OP is has not seen the DLC dungeons or trials past Craglorn. It almost appears that OP is suggesting a dungeon mechanic requiring us to kill 1000 zombies in 30 minutes is a good mechanic that should be added to ESO dungeons. Sounds pretty boring to me. I think I would rather the one shot and not avoid the mechanic.

I think your missing the point about what was meant with point 5. I dont think the actual suggestion was meant to be literal but more metaphorical. The old dungeon mold is still fun but a change would be nice. A good example is like cloudrest compared to anything else. It would be nice to see the developers break the mold on a some of the future content.

EnOeZ

Stibbons wrote: »

Body block in pvp and in wvw. If you hold block button enemy player could not pass you. Not even with dodge rolls. Two skills in wvw skills that could brake this. One magic and one stamina. This would make the fights more realistic and fun perhaps.

More armor you have the slower you would become.

I really LOVE that proposal !!! @ZOS_GinaBruno
(but you do not block teammates)

Skander

Rungar wrote: »

1) True global cooldown timer. This is a critical deficiency of this game. Beyond all the get gud and other nonsense the de-linking of light attacks from the global timer hurts this game alot as the disparity in performance creates needless havok. Consider that the worst players spam light attacks and the best players also spam light attacks but in a way that it "works" (weaving). Beyond the inflated dps numbers it is a terrible system in both pvp and pve. Light attack should be a free spammable and there should be attack type options we can select such that my tank or healer can have a reason to use the button other than dps.

Right now light attack is the opposite of what it should be. It gives players advantages in pvp they shouldnt have in terms of exploiting the timers in a often laggy environment not to mention any technology that can maximize this potential. I believe it chases players away from pvp because theyll never "get good" since it might not even be possible or reasonable for them to do so. Players wear heavy armor in pvp to survive burst, which is made worse when a good chunk of that burst is a free light attack ( often times 2, plus the stuff that a light attack can trigger) before you can react due to lag...) that has no bearing on what armor your wearing and no real cost for the attacking player. Exploiting the timers becomes more important than the other attributes. Players dont know this generally as combat in this game isn't well explained. If you don't wear heavy you often don't get to react when a player who knows how to do this targets you whether its skill (or technology).

however fighting players that don't do this you can usually survive just fine in any armor. You at least get a chance to respond. This tells me that there is a technical deficiency in the core combat mechanics that need to be addressed since most players have no idea how these things actually work. Light attack/heavy attack as a spammable that is free with multiple selectable options for the different classes and roles is a simple solution that will also address lag while providing a more reasonable play environment for all the players at reasonable connection speeds and reasonable skill levels.

2) Medium armor. Medium armor requires penetration for the 5pc equipped bonus. It should have ~3650. Get rid of the alkosh set if you have to but this needs to be done to improve pvp and the viability of that armor. Let the tanks wear what they want. Maybe one will show up once and a while.

3) Tanks. The least played role in the game by a factor of maybe 10x. Other than the overuse of one shots tanking isnt actually that bad but there are a few things that can be done to get players interested. The changes in #1 would give tanks a light attack option that might have a short taunt or other reason to use that button. Getting rid of the weaving will actually help tanks as their dps will relatively go up. Right now a good dps can do about 10x the dmg of a specced tank and that does'nt make any sense. Properly specced for their respective roles the difference should be 3-5x max. Right now the disparity is just far to great and its obviously driving players away.

3a) Knockdown resistance: Armor rating should give knockdown resistance, or a chance (doesnt have to be a high chance) to not be knocked down when you get hit by one. The chance should be small until you get to over 31k armor and become a reasonable at around 33k.

3b) One shot resistance. Same as above but rather than just dying you get different, possibly worse effect, that your teammates can do something about. Again available to all but generally reasonable chances starting at 31k to 33k.

3c) increase the dmg of puncture/low slash a bit and redesign reverberating bash to be some sort of stun+dot
3d) option one would provide a light attack option that taunts so that ice staff would be more viable for tanking. Remove the taunt from the heavy attack.

4) Groupfinder. Groupfinder issues are mostly resolved when more players play tanks and when more players are able to do reasonable dps because the system is obvious and not mystical like it is now.

5) Dungeon design. Dungeon design is stagnant in this game. All dungeons are exactly the same. There is no theme variation other than the boss mob mechanics. The focus on boss mechanics as opposed to overall dungeon strategies (even simple ones like kill 1000 zombies in 30 minutes to complete the dungeon). none of this exists. They are all linear mini trials where you progress from one boss to the next and evasion is the most important skill. The current strategy should be reserved for trials but dungeons should be more fun based with differing objectives and themes. Not everything needs to be a boss fight. Im not saying to eliminate this current design but to augment it with new themed dungeons that will peak players interest. at least one of every two released should have a alternative theme.

ESO is a great game but the combat system has critical issues as easily seen by the variation in players. Move away from these arcane systems to something more people are willing to take part in. ESO is neither an esport nor a hardcore game.

If you give pen to medium armor, you take away the weapon damage bonus

mague

Not only Knockdown ( in 3a), but any cc. And at 35k it should be 100%. It is the nature of the tank to draw attention and survive it. PvP or PvE does not make any difference.

Taunt is another cc in PvP and there should be something else to draw their attentions. Like radiating something good and the more attack the less the tank radiates it. Should be a passive...

Rungar

all the things i listed are real ingame problems right now.

-Dps is often crap in pugs. Its so bad people stop playing other roles because they cant do anything about it other than that. Content is often balanced on numbers that vast majority of players cant reach or ever will.
-Burst and resultant heavy armor is a problem.
-Dps is off the charts compared to tanks and healers to the point that they now balance dungeons to penalize dps(lol).
- the lag is real

medium armor penetration does nothing but make medium armor better vs heavy armored opponents. The dmg bonus is only an issue when the timers are exploited as per the regular gameplay of this system.

from what ive seen nobody has any alternative reasons other than you dont want or like it which tells me im on the right track. They can nerf the game to hell and back but thy cant fix it without addressing this.

Aznox

Rungar wrote: »

Content is often balanced on numbers that vast majority of players cant reach or ever will.

What content are you talking about ? Veteran versions of Trials and Dungeons are the same content with a different challenge. Would you like to ban anything that is too challenging for you ?

jcm2606

-Dps is often crap in pugs. Its so bad people stop playing other roles because they cant do anything about it other than that.

Which is a problem with how shite the game is at educating players, not the mechanics. The vast majority of the player base wouldn't even know what light attack weaving is. Address that, educate players on how to build viable characters for harder content, and you'll see PUGs improve.

Content is often balanced on numbers that vast majority of players cant reach or ever will.

Little content is. The only content that is balanced around the ceiling would be things like vet DLC dungeons, vet trials, vet HM trials, etc. The vast majority of other content, including base game dungeons (normal, vet, vet HM), normal trials, arenas, etc, are balanced around the floor and the mid-tier players.

The bar is seriously not as high as you think it is. Normal base game dungeons can be cleared with 10-15k DPS, even lower in most cases. Vet base game dungeons, 15-20k, depending on the dungeon. Vet HM base game, you're looking at 20-25k. Normal DLC, 15-20k. Vet DLC, 25-30k. Vet HM DLC, 30-35k. Normal base game dungeons, 10-20k. Vet base game dungeons, 20-30k. Vet HM base game dungeons, 30-35k. Normal DLC, 10-30k, depending on the dungeon. Vet DLC, 25-30k. Vet HM DLC, 30-35k.

The highest is generally around 35k, maybe 40k, but the bar generally sits around the 20-25k mark for most content, which isn't hard to hit when you know how to play the game, which, as I said, is the actual problem. Higher is better, but it isn't required. The reason why players want harder, is to skip mechanics, have faster clears, have a smoother experience. Zenimax didn't choose the 40-45k-or-above marks that guilds may or may not use, players did.

And, let me ask you, what is so wrong with having maybe 1% of the content in the game balanced around the ceiling? This is an MMO. Players will always strive to reach the ceiling, should strive to reach the ceiling, and should have content at that ceiling. Likewise, players who do not want to reach that ceiling, are perfectly fine sitting back, after all, they have the other 99% of the game catering to them.

-Burst and resultant heavy armor is a problem.

Is this in relation to PVP, or PVE?

-Dps is off the charts compared to tanks and healers to the point that they now balance dungeons to penalize dps(lol).

My only question is, why, as a player fully spec'd into tanking or healing, are you even concerned with dealing adequate damage? Dealing damage is not your job, tanking/healing is.

If you're wanting to deal adequate damage in overland content, then simply swap out your gear and skill setup for something that isn't fully spec'd into tanking or healing. Overland content does not need to be watered down any further than it already has.

- the lag is real

Nothing to do with any of this. Everything to do with the servers and server software being complete and utter trash, that is not designed to handle the game in its current state, ie having so many calculations on the server.

Way back, before Tamriel Unlimited, I believe, a lot of the calculation was done on the client, and performance was fantastic. You could get into sieges in Cyrodiil with hundreds of players on all three factions, and your ping would be low, your FPS would be high, and the game would be smooth.

Then they started moving *** to the servers, to combat botting, and that's when we got the laggy mess we have today.

medium armor penetration does nothing but make medium armor better vs heavy armored opponents. The dmg bonus is only an issue when the timers are exploited as per the regular gameplay of this system.

1. Medium doesn't need help with damage versus heavy armoured opponents, in either PVE or PVP.

In PVE, stam DPS makes up for the loss of penetration from passives, compared to light armour, by getting it elsewhere, whether it be by group composition (having a stamplar in the group, having somebody run Alkosh / Sunderflame, etc), traits, the Lover mundus, sets, CP, etc.

In PVP, it is a common misconception that heavy beats medium innately when it comes to damage, but it is simply not true. When just looking at medium versus heavy in a vacuum, medium wipes the floor with heavy in terms of damage, offering crit & 15% extra weapon damage, while heavy offers literally nothing. It is when you start introducing things like heavy sets that offer weapon damage through procs, ie Seventh Legion or Fury, that heavy starts to beat medium. Not in the innate damage, but in the access to damage. Which, is a non-issue if you own Summerset, as you can run these heavy sets on jewelry and weapons, while running a medium set on body, and reap the rewards of both the heavy sets and medium armour.

What medium needs help with is simply identity. Medium's identity is mobility. You are meant to mitigate damage by being hard to catch. Which, funnily enough, heavy can do better, thanks to better access to snare immunity through Forward Momentum. Even with the nerf to Forward Momentum, it is still better than Shuffle in terms of snare immunity. That's the problem with medium, it loses with its identity to heavy, due to heavy's access to similar-yet-better tools.

2. How are "timers" being "exploited" taking advantage of the 15% extra weapon damage from medium? You do know that all of your stamina-costing damage skills scale off weapon damage, as well as your healing, so both get buffed, alongside light/heavy attacks, right? Swapping out weapon damage for penetration actually nerfs medium, since it reduces its healing effectiveness.

from what ive seen nobody has any alternative reasons other than you dont want or like it which tells me im on the right track.

So, us not wanting any of your suggestions = you winning? Wat?

The reason we don't want any of your suggestions is because none of these are problems, at least in the way you make them out to be.

Light attack weaving is not the cause of the disparity in player performance, the *** job the game does at educating players is to blame for that.

Medium's problem is not damage, but identity.

Your points about tanks are literally "remove light attack weaving and tanks can do more damage". What??? The role of tanks is not to do damage, it is to tank!

The group finder has far more important problems than lack of tanks and healers.

Dungeons are designed in a unique fashion, with fairly unique mechanics. Though I will agree, the consequences of not adhering to those mechanics are quite bland and unoriginal, ie a one-shot.

Rungar

1) if you want to improve lag you have to reduce the calculations per second. Light weaving/burst dramatically increases the calculations per second. The game plays pretty fast even if you never pressed the light attack button. Simple way to improve performance and address burst.

2) it looks like you can make use of this system, but that doesnt make a good system by any stretch. Because you can use it you might be missing the legions of those who cannot. Tanking vet pug might help here in broadening your perspective. Education will not help a broken system.

Tanks dont want to do dmg , they feel they need to so they finish dungeons. You might never see this but its pretty common. Eventually they just stop que-ing. Its come to a head because no one has addressed it. Enjoy your fake tanks and fake healers. Crap systems drive players away because they cant do anything to fix it.

3) medium armor isnt used because its squishy. I use it in pvp (i play with light as well) and players that can line up burst will roll you over before you get a chance to press a button. Slap on heavy armor and like magic its not nearly so bad. The consequence of the crap system is that everyone has to wear heavy to survive.

I only offered the penetration to make medium more of an attractive offering over heavy armor which it will work against. I didnt say anything about removing anything and i also offered up 3650 which is 1200 less than light armor gives. Could be 2500.


i get that you might make good use of it but this one feature is quite poisonous for the game on the whole and the game plays just fine without it. Youll still have better dps than everyone else because youll have better rotations. Youll still have light attacks but now your light attacks will have way more options you might actually find useful. say for instance an aoe light attack or a taunting one.

there is no downside here really. Its a much needed fix.

jcm2606

1) if you want to improve lag you have to reduce the calculations per second. Light weaving/burst dramatically increases the calculations per second. The game plays pretty fast even if you never pressed the light attack button. Simple way to improve performance and address burst.

Yes, but removing a core mechanic of the game that is used and liked by most of the community is not the way to go about fixing performance.

And, really, removing weaving is not going to fix all performance problems in the game. Not even close.

Because you can use it you might be missing the legions of those who cannot.

So we should dumb the game down around the 0.01% of players who legitimately cannot weave?

There is also a difference between being unable to do something, not knowing something is a thing in the first place, and refusing to do a thing.

Tanking vet pug might help here in broadening your perspective. Education will not help a broken system.

It is not a broken system. Players not knowing that a system exists is not a fault of the system, but of documentation.

Tanks dont want to do dmg , they feel they need to so they finish dungeons. You might never see this but its pretty common. Eventually they just stop que-ing. Its come to a head because no one has addressed it. Enjoy your fake tanks and fake healers. Crap systems drive players away because they cant do anything to fix it.

Again, players deal *** damage because they aren't properly taught anything about the game. This is not a fault of weaving. It is entirely the fault of the game doing a *** trash job at actually teaching players how to play. I feel like a broken record, jesus christ.

medium armor isnt used because its squishy.

So your solution to this is to... increase damage?

And, yes, that is the entire point of medium. You have more innate damage, but you lack innate mitigation, and have to make up for the loss of that by innately being more mobile. If you want more innate mitigation, you go heavy, but you have less innate damage, and less innate mobility.

Again, the problem is, heavy can do medium's job, but better. Heavy offers better mitigation, that's the whole point of it. But it also has better access to damage and mobility. When you have all three, there's no point in medium, that's the problem.

The solution is to give medium its identity back. Move some of the existing damage sets over to medium, and buff Shuffle so it is a better tool for mobility than anything available to heavy. Medium will have its identity back, will have better mobility, and so will have an easier time surviving due to that mobility.

I only offered the penetration to make medium more of an attractive offering over heavy armor which it will work against.

As I've said, though, the problem is not damage through passives. You're buffing medium in the wrong area. The problem is heavy's access to damage outweighs medium's passives, and heavy's access to superior mobility tools strips medium of its identity. Those two need to be addressed, not damage.

And, this doesn't only counter heavy. This also counters light and medium, since most light & medium armour builds have at least double the penetration you suggested, without buffs.

I didnt say anything about removing anything and i also offered up 3650 which is 1200 less than light armor gives. Could be 2500.

Yep, you didn't say that. But, this is what will have to happen if you give medium armour penetration, as penetration stacked with 15% extra weapon damage will overperform.

i get that you might make good use of it but this one feature is quite poisonous for the game on the whole and the game plays just fine without it.

Plays just fine for you, a self-described PVE tank main, who occasionally plays healers and archers in PVP. You aren't in a spot to give feedback, because you don't use it as actively as DPS do.

And, besides, to quote an excellent movie, "yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man." Personally, weaving is a big reason why I like ESO's combat system, because it helps the transition between skills feel smoother. If you remove weaving, my experience gets worse, so it is going to be a hard no for me, regardless of your honestly poor reasoning behind removing it.

Youll still have better dps than everyone else because youll have better rotations.

The thing is, yes, we will. But, everybody else's DPS will not go up relative to ours! Removing light attack weaving will not make the floor perform better, because they don't know how to actually play the game! Again, you're looking at the wrong thing. Want to buff the floor's DPS? Yell at Zenimax to write better tutorials.

Youll still have light attacks but now your light attacks will have way more options you might actually find useful. say for instance an aoe light attack or a taunting one.

And yet will remove something that makes gameplay smoother for me, and many other people. Again, no thanks.

there is no downside here really

I would call loss of a mechanic due to ESO doing a garbage job at educating the floor a downside.

Its a much needed fix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c