Why is no one discussing bleeds strength?

Feanor

People defending Bleeds in their current state remind me of people defending Sload’s.

susmitds

Feanor wrote: »

People defending Bleeds in their current state remind me of people defending Sload’s.

Bleeds are only the thing that allows glass cannon builds to put pressure on tanky builds with 30k+ resists and broken self heals.
When my 5k weapon damage Incap Strike hits for 4k on someone, whose DBoS eats 50% of my HP, nothing else will help me.

Feanor

susmitds wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

People defending Bleeds in their current state remind me of people defending Sload’s.

Bleeds are only the thing that allows glass cannon builds to put pressure on tanky builds with 30k+ resists and broken self heals.

The funny thing is the exact same thing was brought up in the Defence of Sload’s. “There is build X, therefore it’s needed.” That it screws over all other builds than build X even harder is somehow always conveniently neglected in these discussions.

You know, we could for once target build X instead of screwing over everyone who isn’t on the extreme end. One excellent suggestion I’ve read was designing sets that increase in power the more mitigation someone has, like a reversed Mark of the Pariah. That would be interesting, instead of just introducing a lazy band-aid and calling it a day because “it’s needed”.

susmitds

Feanor wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

People defending Bleeds in their current state remind me of people defending Sload’s.

Bleeds are only the thing that allows glass cannon builds to put pressure on tanky builds with 30k+ resists and broken self heals.

The funny thing is the exact same thing was brought up in the Defence of Sload’s. “There is build X, therefore it’s needed.” That it screws over all other builds than build X even harder is somehow always conveniently neglected in these discussions.

You know, we could for once target build X instead of screwing over everyone who isn’t on the extreme end. One excellent suggestion I’ve read was designing sets that increase in power the more mitigation someone has, like a reversed Mark of the Pariah. That would be interesting, instead of just introducing a lazy band-aid and calling it a day because “it’s needed”.

Issue is guess what, with the shield and dodge changes, everyone will run high resist builds. There is no longer Build X, that is the issue. Now, builds X,Y,X all share the tankiness and thereby the same issue.

Feanor

susmitds wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

People defending Bleeds in their current state remind me of people defending Sload’s.

Bleeds are only the thing that allows glass cannon builds to put pressure on tanky builds with 30k+ resists and broken self heals.

The funny thing is the exact same thing was brought up in the Defence of Sload’s. “There is build X, therefore it’s needed.” That it screws over all other builds than build X even harder is somehow always conveniently neglected in these discussions.

You know, we could for once target build X instead of screwing over everyone who isn’t on the extreme end. One excellent suggestion I’ve read was designing sets that increase in power the more mitigation someone has, like a reversed Mark of the Pariah. That would be interesting, instead of just introducing a lazy band-aid and calling it a day because “it’s needed”.

Issue is guess what, with the shield and dodge changes, everyone will run high resist builds. There is no longer Build X, that is the issue. Now, builds X,Y,X all share the tankiness and thereby the same issue.

That’s not a new development. Playing on the more tanky side of things was always more effective, this reaches back at least to the Malubeth abuse when a lot of people also ran guard on top. Being tanky and the move to HA is not recent. It’s been like that for two years at least.

People weren’t all running HA because other play styles may be less effective, but they are fun. According to you everyone will run high mitigation (outside ganking), and do everyone will also need to run Bleeds to get kills outside zerging.

Having Bleeds as is isn’t the way to go. Changing the game to allow fun for other playstyles is.

lucky_dutch

Feanor wrote: »

People defending Bleeds in their current state remind me of people defending Sload’s.

So a bleed build outplayed your Heavy Armor steel tornado spamming and you want a nerf?

Ok then.

IZZEFlameLash

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

People defending Bleeds in their current state remind me of people defending Sload’s.

So a bleed build outplayed your Heavy Armor steel tornado spamming and you want a nerf?

Ok then.

Jokes on you. Bleed builds are the ones running Steel Tornado and HA.

Feanor

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

People defending Bleeds in their current state remind me of people defending Sload’s.

So a bleed build outplayed your Heavy Armor steel tornado spamming and you want a nerf?

Ok then.

1) I'm not playing a stam char in PvP at the moment.

2) I don't want a nerf. I want a rework of HA and bleeds that finally doesn't punish the non-extreme builds.

3) In the grand picture, armor weights are grossly misbalanced due to passives and itemization.

4) Bleeds are "free" damage. There is a reason everyone runs HA with it.

Nicko_Lps

templesus wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

That’s a dueling build. In actual Cyrodiil 1vXing bleeds are meh at best. Furthermore that’s a medium armor build without Bloodspawn or any form of survivability and the max Stam is horrendously low so the heals are likely god awful unless every weapon damage buff is active.

All in all that’s a build tethered mainly for duels and will perform worse then a well balanced build of Bone Pirate Bloodspawn and Spriggan/Shackle/Hulking.

If you die in Cyrodiil to bleeds that’s a L2P issue. This game isn’t balanced around duels. If it annoys you that much then stop dueling. This game should be balanced specifically around 1vX as that’s what requires the highest floor in PvP.

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Because:
"Waaah big scary tanks stole my wife and killed my dog, I wan a hard counter because I can't kill them waaah"
Tl;dr Scrubs don't realize how quickly tanky builds (that aren't useless no dmg ones) die when they are locked down and pressured, so want easy peasy kills.

Scrubs and ex-skyrim players with 0 mmo exp fail to realize:

1)tanks are ment to take damage NOT doing damage or heal.
2)DD's are ment to deal damage and not heal+tank.
3)healers are ment to sustain a fair amount of damage while healing them+allies while not being able to dish out dps.


Nobody here is talking about 40k+++ HP tanks, but you failed to realize this as well i assume.

Have you ever played WoW and fought a Blood DK or Ret Pally? One is a tank that deals damage and the other is a dps that has insane off healing...several MMOs function like this.

Ive played WoW for many years, blood DK can heal like 2 healers IF he is melee range and 99% of the dps can kite a DK for like 10 days while holding a cigarette.

As about paladin, you need to be patient with him force his buble without using your major CD's. I rekt rt's on my WindWalker.

But tanks on WoW heal in melee range, not running like feral druids and healing behind pillars. Also since you talk about WoW you should know tanks in PvP are useless. Now if you get inside arenas with a blood DK means you have 0 knowledge on what you talk about. GG

Ariades_swe wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Because:
"Waaah big scary tanks stole my wife and killed my dog, I wan a hard counter because I can't kill them waaah"
Tl;dr Scrubs don't realize how quickly tanky builds (that aren't useless no dmg ones) die when they are locked down and pressured, so want easy peasy kills.

Scrubs and ex-skyrim players with 0 mmo exp fail to realize:

1)tanks are ment to take damage NOT doing damage or heal.
2)DD's are ment to deal damage and not heal+tank.
3)healers are ment to sustain a fair amount of damage while healing them+allies while not being able to dish out dps.


Nobody here is talking about 40k+++ HP tanks, but you failed to realize this as well i assume.

Go back to Everquest.
You seem stuck in early 2000s mmos.
You want tab targetting too?

2000s MMO's like WoW for instance and its tab targeting are fairly balanced unlike this lagfest+bugfest+zergfest you probably call evolution.

Yeah, never had a problem with tab targeting. I know its hard for scrubs to tab their targets tho + play with more than 10 keys

I haven't played WoW since WOTLK, back then Blood DK was absurdly broken and Ret Pally had amazing heals along with bubble. And I mainly played rated arenas back then as well. It was very long ago though so perhaps my memory is slipping, I can't remember if there were ever any Blood Dks in arenas. This was back when they still had 5v5s lmao.

Well... During WotLK was a premier for DK's as legion premier for Hemon Dunters. As they just are released, they are quite a bit op due to not balanced correctly and because they have the right to be OP for a while to reach other classes progress, as warden was for a while but still remains lol.


No Blood is dead if you efficiently kite it, as for rets yeah they are quite OP even now considering that rets are WoW's whineblades. They call for buffs and nerfs in the forum crying 24/7 about everything but still they are immovable defensive giants, they cut like razors in melee and their burst is on wings see wings run then go burst it untill it bubbles then rekt it up entirely.

ESO tanklings have outstanding mobility+ Bdk tankiness + Heals like a priest+druud+burst like a windwalker...
Now if you call that balanced, we can always agree to disagree i guess


PS
Bdk is tank spec nowadays, frost+unholy dps

IZZEFlameLash

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

That’s a dueling build. In actual Cyrodiil 1vXing bleeds are meh at best. Furthermore that’s a medium armor build without Bloodspawn or any form of survivability and the max Stam is horrendously low so the heals are likely god awful unless every weapon damage buff is active.

All in all that’s a build tethered mainly for duels and will perform worse then a well balanced build of Bone Pirate Bloodspawn and Spriggan/Shackle/Hulking.

If you die in Cyrodiil to bleeds that’s a L2P issue. This game isn’t balanced around duels. If it annoys you that much then stop dueling. This game should be balanced specifically around 1vX as that’s what requires the highest floor in PvP.

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Because:
"Waaah big scary tanks stole my wife and killed my dog, I wan a hard counter because I can't kill them waaah"
Tl;dr Scrubs don't realize how quickly tanky builds (that aren't useless no dmg ones) die when they are locked down and pressured, so want easy peasy kills.

Scrubs and ex-skyrim players with 0 mmo exp fail to realize:

1)tanks are ment to take damage NOT doing damage or heal.
2)DD's are ment to deal damage and not heal+tank.
3)healers are ment to sustain a fair amount of damage while healing them+allies while not being able to dish out dps.


Nobody here is talking about 40k+++ HP tanks, but you failed to realize this as well i assume.

Have you ever played WoW and fought a Blood DK or Ret Pally? One is a tank that deals damage and the other is a dps that has insane off healing...several MMOs function like this.

Ive played WoW for many years, blood DK can heal like 2 healers IF he is melee range and 99% of the dps can kite a DK for like 10 days while holding a cigarette.

As about paladin, you need to be patient with him force his buble without using your major CD's. I rekt rt's on my WindWalker.

But tanks on WoW heal in melee range, not running like feral druids and healing behind pillars. Also since you talk about WoW you should know tanks in PvP are useless. Now if you get inside arenas with a blood DK means you have 0 knowledge on what you talk about. GG

Ariades_swe wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Because:
"Waaah big scary tanks stole my wife and killed my dog, I wan a hard counter because I can't kill them waaah"
Tl;dr Scrubs don't realize how quickly tanky builds (that aren't useless no dmg ones) die when they are locked down and pressured, so want easy peasy kills.

Scrubs and ex-skyrim players with 0 mmo exp fail to realize:

1)tanks are ment to take damage NOT doing damage or heal.
2)DD's are ment to deal damage and not heal+tank.
3)healers are ment to sustain a fair amount of damage while healing them+allies while not being able to dish out dps.


Nobody here is talking about 40k+++ HP tanks, but you failed to realize this as well i assume.

Go back to Everquest.
You seem stuck in early 2000s mmos.
You want tab targetting too?

2000s MMO's like WoW for instance and its tab targeting are fairly balanced unlike this lagfest+bugfest+zergfest you probably call evolution.

Yeah, never had a problem with tab targeting. I know its hard for scrubs to tab their targets tho + play with more than 10 keys

I haven't played WoW since WOTLK, back then Blood DK was absurdly broken and Ret Pally had amazing heals along with bubble. And I mainly played rated arenas back then as well. It was very long ago though so perhaps my memory is slipping, I can't remember if there were ever any Blood Dks in arenas. This was back when they still had 5v5s lmao.

Well... During WotLK was a premier for DK's as legion premier for Hemon Dunters. As they just are released, they are quite a bit op due to not balanced correctly and because they have the right to be OP for a while to reach other classes progress, as warden was for a while but still remains lol.


No Blood is dead if you efficiently kite it, as for rets yeah they are quite OP even now considering that rets are WoW's whineblades. They call for buffs and nerfs in the forum crying 24/7 about everything but still they are immovable defensive giants, they cut like razors in melee and their burst is on wings see wings run then go burst it untill it bubbles then rekt it up entirely.

ESO tanklings have outstanding mobility+ Bdk tankiness + Heals like a priest+druud+burst like a windwalker...
Now if you call that balanced, we can always agree to disagree i guess


PS
Bdk is tank spec nowadays, frost+unholy dps

I like how you conveniently leave out the fact that how healers can tank like a tank and dps can tank like a tank and heal like a healer in this game.

Pevey

Great, now they will nerf bleeds, moving us ever closer to the light attack vs light attack meta.

React

Laquey wrote: »

So to me there seems to be an elephant in the room that people are not discussing; just exactly how powerful bleeds will be post Murkmire. They are already strong against tanky pvp builds and now with the changes to shields they will be even more powerful against light armour classes who rely on shields. Why? Because shields are now capped, shields can be crit which should be balanced by the resistances but since bleeds bypass resistances that will no longer be possible.

With the murkmire changes builds like this:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/436427/the-construct-v2-stamplar-build-for-wolfhunter-7-5k-weapon-damage#latest

will become the new meta as they counter pretty much everything heavy armour can throw at them as well as now punishing light armour shields as it can now crit them even with a classic 44% crit resti the build still gets an additional 12% damage against shields on average; light armour will just melt.

Is this what ZoS intends? Bleed builds > all? I can't really see how you can compete against this builds pressure given the build will now take advantage of the new evasion damage reduction to AoE effects and still has access to snare removal even if it is more expensive.

I guess I'll be pulling my Stamplar / Stamblade out after this patch?

I love how you quote my build as an example of "bleeds being OP" when it's a minimal mitigation/sustain, FULLY DAMAGE SPEC'd medium armor plar build, that is by no means whatsoever "easy" to play. Let's see you put your mag classes away and have some successful outnumbered fights on that setup.

Wuuffyy

I’m quitting this game if you nerf bleeds because people *** about a 1k crit every 2 secs.

Feanor

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

I’m quitting this game if you nerf bleeds because people *** about a 1k crit every 2 secs.

If that’s the damage your bleeds do, you’re doing it wrong.

Wuuffyy

Feanor wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

I’m quitting this game if you nerf bleeds because people *** about a 1k crit every 2 secs.

If that’s the damage your bleeds do, you’re doing it wrong.

Omg a k to 2 k every one to 2 secs is nothing. They run slashes b/c it’s literally a snare that has free damage and there are a lack of better moves for stam. The bleed is doing 12-18% more damage to light and med and 30-36 for heavy. It works as it should

React

templesus wrote: »

Laquey wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

That’s a dueling build. In actual Cyrodiil 1vXing bleeds are meh at best. Furthermore that’s a medium armor build without Bloodspawn or any form of survivability and the max Stam is horrendously low so the heals are likely god awful unless every weapon damage buff is active.

All in all that’s a build tethered mainly for duels and will perform worse then a well balanced build of Bone Pirate Bloodspawn and Spriggan/Shackle/Hulking.

If you die in Cyrodiil to bleeds that’s a L2P issue. This game isn’t balanced around duels. If it annoys you that much then stop dueling. This game should be balanced specifically around 1vX as that’s what requires the highest floor in PvP.

Have you ever played WoW and fought a Blood DK or Ret Pally? One is a tank that deals damage and the other is a dps that has insane off healing...several MMOs function like this.

It's not just a dueling build as noted in the post and it's video:

"The damage is near impossible to match while still maintaining the same stats elsewhere, and it functions very well in group play, battlegrounds, and solo."

The only environment this build would be average in I think would be a zerg, if you're zerging probably don't use this build.

Re the player:

"Best stamplar Xbox NA " - Lexxypwns

I look at this build and see a powerhouse founded on bleeds it has the tools to be mobile, sustain good pressure and blow your head off with burst when needed.

I'd trust the community consensus on this rather than you thanks.

The things you just listed are good for duels. You know what you didn’t list that’s needed for 1vX? Survivability, Healing, that build has neither. Any GOOD (keyword good) 1vXer will tell you that build isn’t good for it. Sure, any build has the potential to get 1 or 2 clips against some absolute trash cans, but that build is not functioning well in Cyrodiil 1vXing. Don’t believe me? Try it out yourself, see how it goes.

My basic build of Bone pirate Hulk and BS has 43.5k Stam, 3900 weapon damage(without LA), and 1900 recovery. That’s a 1vx build, well rounded, not focused on 1 stat relying on proc conditions.

I've been playing solo in medium armor on stam since this game came out my friend. I've got 3000 hours on plar, 1000 hours on NB, 750 on sorc, 500+ on DK, 500+ on warden. That setup is the setup I 1vX in, and this is coming from someone who ran the meta BP/RAV, Hulk/Rav, hulk/sprig, hulk/bp etc builds back when they became wildly popular after 1T and POTL being introduced.

You're completely wrong about that being a dueling build. In fact, that is probably one of the worst plar setups you could actually duel on. You point out needing "balanced stats" by way of higher max resources, but really if you played at a high enough level you'd realize you can achieve more damage from stacking into max WD, and that your max stam only needs to be maintained at a level YOU can sustain. For duels you're much better off with a mitigation set paired with BP, because ultimately what dueling comes down to is being able to survive the full burst of your opponent & eventually being able to outsustain them. Let's be real now, nobody with thumbs is getting outright bursted in 2018 with 780CP. Clever is CERTAINLY not ideal for duels, the downtime is way too high and you'd be better off with almost any sustain, mitigation, or stat focused set.

You might be right about the "try it yourself, see how it goes part", because the build isn't easy to play. But the fact that you're making that observation makes me believe you likely aren't as good as you think you are.

templesus

Liam12548 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Laquey wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

That’s a dueling build. In actual Cyrodiil 1vXing bleeds are meh at best. Furthermore that’s a medium armor build without Bloodspawn or any form of survivability and the max Stam is horrendously low so the heals are likely god awful unless every weapon damage buff is active.

All in all that’s a build tethered mainly for duels and will perform worse then a well balanced build of Bone Pirate Bloodspawn and Spriggan/Shackle/Hulking.

If you die in Cyrodiil to bleeds that’s a L2P issue. This game isn’t balanced around duels. If it annoys you that much then stop dueling. This game should be balanced specifically around 1vX as that’s what requires the highest floor in PvP.

Have you ever played WoW and fought a Blood DK or Ret Pally? One is a tank that deals damage and the other is a dps that has insane off healing...several MMOs function like this.

It's not just a dueling build as noted in the post and it's video:

"The damage is near impossible to match while still maintaining the same stats elsewhere, and it functions very well in group play, battlegrounds, and solo."

The only environment this build would be average in I think would be a zerg, if you're zerging probably don't use this build.

Re the player:

"Best stamplar Xbox NA " - Lexxypwns

I look at this build and see a powerhouse founded on bleeds it has the tools to be mobile, sustain good pressure and blow your head off with burst when needed.

I'd trust the community consensus on this rather than you thanks.

The things you just listed are good for duels. You know what you didn’t list that’s needed for 1vX? Survivability, Healing, that build has neither. Any GOOD (keyword good) 1vXer will tell you that build isn’t good for it. Sure, any build has the potential to get 1 or 2 clips against some absolute trash cans, but that build is not functioning well in Cyrodiil 1vXing. Don’t believe me? Try it out yourself, see how it goes.

My basic build of Bone pirate Hulk and BS has 43.5k Stam, 3900 weapon damage(without LA), and 1900 recovery. That’s a 1vx build, well rounded, not focused on 1 stat relying on proc conditions.

I've been playing solo in medium armor on stam since this game came out my friend. I've got 3000 hours on plar, 1000 hours on NB, 750 on sorc, 500+ on DK, 500+ on warden. That setup is the setup I 1vX in, and this is coming from someone who ran the meta BP/RAV, Hulk/Rav, hulk/sprig, hulk/bp etc builds back when they became wildly popular after 1T and POTL being introduced.

You're completely wrong about that being a dueling build. In fact, that is probably one of the worst plar setups you could actually duel on. You point out needing "balanced stats" by way of higher max resources, but really if you played at a high enough level you'd realize you can achieve more damage from stacking into max WD, and that your max stam only needs to be maintained at a level YOU can sustain. For duels you're much better off with a mitigation set paired with BP, because ultimately what dueling comes down to is being able to survive the full burst of your opponent & eventually being able to outsustain them. Let's be real now, nobody with thumbs is getting outright bursted in 2018 with 780CP. Clever is CERTAINLY not ideal for duels, the downtime is way too high and you'd be better off with almost any sustain, mitigation, or stat focused set.

You might be right about the "try it yourself, see how it goes part", because the build isn't easy to play. But the fact that you're making that observation makes me believe you likely aren't as good as you think you are.

Back in one Tamriel I won numerous dueling tournaments using Clever/Hundings/Agility. This was even before POTL buff, as well as jabs being undodgeable. This was when stamplar was absolutely ass, I know how good I am. I also know that while your build may work for you, it is not a good build for 1vxing in Cyrodiil. Sure, in IC where there is tons of cover I’ll give it to you because survivability in IC is just inherently higher. And nobody with thumbs gets bursted with 780cp? What? Have you watched good magblades duel these days? I’ve seen good players get absolutely *** on by a skoria/soul harvest/bow combo.

All in all your setup has low survivability due to lack of any form of defensive set, and low healing unless every damage proc is up. Sure it probably does do insane damage, but then again if you’re just going for a glass cannon build then what build won’t? I could play magplar, one of the worst classes for 1vXing in the game, slap on War maiden Shackle and Slimecraw and still get a few clips because it hits so hard. I didn’t mean to trash on your build or anything because I ran something similar way back before BP existed with clever automaton(when it still had the 1pc health) and BS/Malubeth with lava foot(I was on Kodis first Top 5 pvp clips) it’s just that i don’t like when people say stamplar is OP (like the OP) when it’s moreso the build just looks amazing on paper. The OP would never be able to use that build and succeed.

You seem like you know what you’re talking about, I suggest you join the Templar discord. Not a lot of stamplars there who know what they’re talking about with the class, mostly a bunch of magplars and our feedback basically gets swept under the rug.

React

templesus wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Laquey wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

That’s a dueling build. In actual Cyrodiil 1vXing bleeds are meh at best. Furthermore that’s a medium armor build without Bloodspawn or any form of survivability and the max Stam is horrendously low so the heals are likely god awful unless every weapon damage buff is active.

All in all that’s a build tethered mainly for duels and will perform worse then a well balanced build of Bone Pirate Bloodspawn and Spriggan/Shackle/Hulking.

If you die in Cyrodiil to bleeds that’s a L2P issue. This game isn’t balanced around duels. If it annoys you that much then stop dueling. This game should be balanced specifically around 1vX as that’s what requires the highest floor in PvP.

Have you ever played WoW and fought a Blood DK or Ret Pally? One is a tank that deals damage and the other is a dps that has insane off healing...several MMOs function like this.

It's not just a dueling build as noted in the post and it's video:

"The damage is near impossible to match while still maintaining the same stats elsewhere, and it functions very well in group play, battlegrounds, and solo."

The only environment this build would be average in I think would be a zerg, if you're zerging probably don't use this build.

Re the player:

"Best stamplar Xbox NA " - Lexxypwns

I look at this build and see a powerhouse founded on bleeds it has the tools to be mobile, sustain good pressure and blow your head off with burst when needed.

I'd trust the community consensus on this rather than you thanks.

The things you just listed are good for duels. You know what you didn’t list that’s needed for 1vX? Survivability, Healing, that build has neither. Any GOOD (keyword good) 1vXer will tell you that build isn’t good for it. Sure, any build has the potential to get 1 or 2 clips against some absolute trash cans, but that build is not functioning well in Cyrodiil 1vXing. Don’t believe me? Try it out yourself, see how it goes.

My basic build of Bone pirate Hulk and BS has 43.5k Stam, 3900 weapon damage(without LA), and 1900 recovery. That’s a 1vx build, well rounded, not focused on 1 stat relying on proc conditions.

I've been playing solo in medium armor on stam since this game came out my friend. I've got 3000 hours on plar, 1000 hours on NB, 750 on sorc, 500+ on DK, 500+ on warden. That setup is the setup I 1vX in, and this is coming from someone who ran the meta BP/RAV, Hulk/Rav, hulk/sprig, hulk/bp etc builds back when they became wildly popular after 1T and POTL being introduced.

You're completely wrong about that being a dueling build. In fact, that is probably one of the worst plar setups you could actually duel on. You point out needing "balanced stats" by way of higher max resources, but really if you played at a high enough level you'd realize you can achieve more damage from stacking into max WD, and that your max stam only needs to be maintained at a level YOU can sustain. For duels you're much better off with a mitigation set paired with BP, because ultimately what dueling comes down to is being able to survive the full burst of your opponent & eventually being able to outsustain them. Let's be real now, nobody with thumbs is getting outright bursted in 2018 with 780CP. Clever is CERTAINLY not ideal for duels, the downtime is way too high and you'd be better off with almost any sustain, mitigation, or stat focused set.

You might be right about the "try it yourself, see how it goes part", because the build isn't easy to play. But the fact that you're making that observation makes me believe you likely aren't as good as you think you are.

I also know that while your build may work for you, it is not a good build for 1vxing in Cyrodiil. Sure, in IC where there is tons of cover I’ll give it to you because survivability in IC is just inherently higher.

See, that's where I'm gonna have to disagree. 1vXing potatoes is one thing, you can kill them on any setup. But if you want to actually succeed in killing any type of decent players while they outnumber you, you're going to need the damage to do so. Tell me, how do you handle a 32k health resto s&b argonian with all their blue cp in blessed and elfborn & two thumbs on bp/hulking? I can hit them for 10k+ dawnbreakers and 2k jab ticks, allowing me to actually have a chance at outright bursting them. The same goes for any decent players that know how to heal one another and don't run out of sustain chasing you around; you aren't going to kill them without the maximum amount of damage you can have. That setup IS just about the max damage you can have, and it has plenty of sustain and all around stats to boot. The max stam is the only thing that lacks, and the reason it's at that value is because that is where I've balanced it to my liking.

As for the IC vs cyrodiil thing, that's another hard disagree from me. The key to solo play in cyro is positioning; you don't go fight at the front door of a keep or in a huge open field in the path of the zerg because you have no nearby LoS. You position yourself near rocks that you can navigate with well aimed/timed jumps and rolls, or near sets of trees & rocks with vertical movement available, or in resource towers where the movement is very easy.

You generally run into weaker players in IC sure, but the terrain in IC is far easier to navigate than cyrodiil, where players are unfamiliar with the way movement through rocks works. Any pug can walk up a set of stairs, through a hallway, drop through a hole in the floor, then navigate back up the stairs & repeat. Having to jump across what we refer to as a "tri-rock" on XB NA (the copy paste rocks with a path through the middle and a ridge around the outside all over cyro) is much more difficult and tends to split groups of players up much better than simple IC terrain. Also, if you've put real time into solo and practicing your positioning, you should know of rocks near basically any point on the map that you can navigate through to split groups up.

The mageblade thing is kind of an outlier. I recently started playing the class, and the burst is by far the strongest in the game. However, you can still put together a stam build ideal for dueling these by running a mitigation set and stacking into ironclad. Any player spec'd for dueling is going to build to survive this sort of thing.

templesus

Liam12548 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Laquey wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

That’s a dueling build. In actual Cyrodiil 1vXing bleeds are meh at best. Furthermore that’s a medium armor build without Bloodspawn or any form of survivability and the max Stam is horrendously low so the heals are likely god awful unless every weapon damage buff is active.

All in all that’s a build tethered mainly for duels and will perform worse then a well balanced build of Bone Pirate Bloodspawn and Spriggan/Shackle/Hulking.

If you die in Cyrodiil to bleeds that’s a L2P issue. This game isn’t balanced around duels. If it annoys you that much then stop dueling. This game should be balanced specifically around 1vX as that’s what requires the highest floor in PvP.

Have you ever played WoW and fought a Blood DK or Ret Pally? One is a tank that deals damage and the other is a dps that has insane off healing...several MMOs function like this.

It's not just a dueling build as noted in the post and it's video:

"The damage is near impossible to match while still maintaining the same stats elsewhere, and it functions very well in group play, battlegrounds, and solo."

The only environment this build would be average in I think would be a zerg, if you're zerging probably don't use this build.

Re the player:

"Best stamplar Xbox NA " - Lexxypwns

I look at this build and see a powerhouse founded on bleeds it has the tools to be mobile, sustain good pressure and blow your head off with burst when needed.

I'd trust the community consensus on this rather than you thanks.

The things you just listed are good for duels. You know what you didn’t list that’s needed for 1vX? Survivability, Healing, that build has neither. Any GOOD (keyword good) 1vXer will tell you that build isn’t good for it. Sure, any build has the potential to get 1 or 2 clips against some absolute trash cans, but that build is not functioning well in Cyrodiil 1vXing. Don’t believe me? Try it out yourself, see how it goes.

My basic build of Bone pirate Hulk and BS has 43.5k Stam, 3900 weapon damage(without LA), and 1900 recovery. That’s a 1vx build, well rounded, not focused on 1 stat relying on proc conditions.

I've been playing solo in medium armor on stam since this game came out my friend. I've got 3000 hours on plar, 1000 hours on NB, 750 on sorc, 500+ on DK, 500+ on warden. That setup is the setup I 1vX in, and this is coming from someone who ran the meta BP/RAV, Hulk/Rav, hulk/sprig, hulk/bp etc builds back when they became wildly popular after 1T and POTL being introduced.

You're completely wrong about that being a dueling build. In fact, that is probably one of the worst plar setups you could actually duel on. You point out needing "balanced stats" by way of higher max resources, but really if you played at a high enough level you'd realize you can achieve more damage from stacking into max WD, and that your max stam only needs to be maintained at a level YOU can sustain. For duels you're much better off with a mitigation set paired with BP, because ultimately what dueling comes down to is being able to survive the full burst of your opponent & eventually being able to outsustain them. Let's be real now, nobody with thumbs is getting outright bursted in 2018 with 780CP. Clever is CERTAINLY not ideal for duels, the downtime is way too high and you'd be better off with almost any sustain, mitigation, or stat focused set.

You might be right about the "try it yourself, see how it goes part", because the build isn't easy to play. But the fact that you're making that observation makes me believe you likely aren't as good as you think you are.

I also know that while your build may work for you, it is not a good build for 1vxing in Cyrodiil. Sure, in IC where there is tons of cover I’ll give it to you because survivability in IC is just inherently higher.

See, that's where I'm gonna have to disagree. 1vXing potatoes is one thing, you can kill them on any setup. But if you want to actually succeed in killing any type of decent players while they outnumber you, you're going to need the damage to do so. Tell me, how do you handle a 32k health resto s&b argonian with all their blue cp in blessed and elfborn & two thumbs on bp/hulking? I can hit them for 10k+ dawnbreakers and 2k jab ticks, allowing me to actually have a chance at outright bursting them. The same goes for any decent players that know how to heal one another and don't run out of sustain chasing you around; you aren't going to kill them without the maximum amount of damage you can have. That setup IS just about the max damage you can have, and it has plenty of sustain and all around stats to boot. The max stam is the only thing that lacks, and the reason it's at that value is because that is where I've balanced it to my liking.

As for the IC vs cyrodiil thing, that's another hard disagree from me. The key to solo play in cyro is positioning; you don't go fight at the front door of a keep or in a huge open field in the path of the zerg because you have no nearby LoS. You position yourself near rocks that you can navigate with well aimed/timed jumps and rolls, or near sets of trees & rocks with vertical movement available, or in resource towers where the movement is very easy.

You generally run into weaker players in IC sure, but the terrain in IC is far easier to navigate than cyrodiil, where players are unfamiliar with the way movement through rocks works. Any pug can walk up a set of stairs, through a hallway, drop through a hole in the floor, then navigate back up the stairs & repeat. Having to jump across what we refer to as a "tri-rock" on XB NA (the copy paste rocks with a path through the middle and a ridge around the outside all over cyro) is much more difficult and tends to split groups of players up much better than simple IC terrain. Also, if you've put real time into solo and practicing your positioning, you should know of rocks near basically any point on the map that you can navigate through to split groups up.

The mageblade thing is kind of an outlier. I recently started playing the class, and the burst is by far the strongest in the game. However, you can still put together a stam build ideal for dueling these by running a mitigation set and stacking into ironclad. Any player spec'd for dueling is going to build to survive this sort of thing.

In regards to the 32k health rests s&b argonian? I find suitable LoS and try to split up the DPS from the healer and then focus on bursting them; from there I can then go in on the healer. I have 43.5k Stam and 3900 weapon damage without a light attack, I never said I don't have damage lmao.

Regarding Cyro vs IC, in Cyrodiil there are too many scenarios where LoS just isn't good enough. Take the space between Fare and Alessia, there is one set of rocks that you can really LoS around and other then that it is majority open field. Take that vs IC where as long as you stay within certain districts there is unlimited amounts of LoS.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Issue with bleeds imo is that its good vs everything, not just tanks, actually its better vs nontanks because they just get overwhelmed by dmg.

Thats how bleed works in WoW too, the problem is in a balanced game like WoW only druids can bleed enemies+they are squishy so their game play is apply bleeds + kite like crazy to survive.


Now in amazingly balanced ESO, heavy armor tanks utilize bleeds while standing perfectly still with no need to kite as they poison dot+bleed dot+dawnbreakerDot+ Some still using sload dot and to even get more crazy? Stack on top of that axe bleeds + WW bleeds.


Thank Auri El... op shields got nerfed!

You can't stack axe bleeds and ww bleeds @Nicko_Lps if you'd have ever played werewolf you would know that...
Weapon passives are deactivated in ww Form and oh yes you can't use ults in ww Form either...

Nicko_Lps

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Issue with bleeds imo is that its good vs everything, not just tanks, actually its better vs nontanks because they just get overwhelmed by dmg.

Thats how bleed works in WoW too, the problem is in a balanced game like WoW only druids can bleed enemies+they are squishy so their game play is apply bleeds + kite like crazy to survive.


Now in amazingly balanced ESO, heavy armor tanks utilize bleeds while standing perfectly still with no need to kite as they poison dot+bleed dot+dawnbreakerDot+ Some still using sload dot and to even get more crazy? Stack on top of that axe bleeds + WW bleeds.


Thank Auri El... op shields got nerfed!

You can't stack axe bleeds and ww bleeds @Nicko_Lps if you'd have ever played werewolf you would know that...
Weapon passives are deactivated in ww Form and oh yes you can't use ults in ww Form either...

No i never played WW but i do know that you cant use other ultis in WW form, so if they are pre-applied they stop working when you go WW mode?
Is ESO so advanced?

Qbiken

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Issue with bleeds imo is that its good vs everything, not just tanks, actually its better vs nontanks because they just get overwhelmed by dmg.

Thats how bleed works in WoW too, the problem is in a balanced game like WoW only druids can bleed enemies+they are squishy so their game play is apply bleeds + kite like crazy to survive.


Now in amazingly balanced ESO, heavy armor tanks utilize bleeds while standing perfectly still with no need to kite as they poison dot+bleed dot+dawnbreakerDot+ Some still using sload dot and to even get more crazy? Stack on top of that axe bleeds + WW bleeds.


Thank Auri El... op shields got nerfed!

You can't stack axe bleeds and ww bleeds @Nicko_Lps if you'd have ever played werewolf you would know that...
Weapon passives are deactivated in ww Form and oh yes you can't use ults in ww Form either...

No i never played WW but i do know that you cant use other ultis in WW form, so if they are pre-applied they stop working when you go WW mode?
Is ESO so advanced?

You can apply them before you go into ww-form bu not re-apply the axe-bleed once transformed.

And werewolf would be absolute garbage without their bleed in PvP. They need it to be viable. If bleed damage get nerfed into oblivion I hope werewolf get some significant buffs as compensation

Xeniph

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Because:
"Waaah big scary tanks stole my wife and killed my dog, I wan a hard counter because I can't kill them waaah"
Tl;dr Scrubs don't realize how quickly tanky builds (that aren't useless no dmg ones) die when they are locked down and pressured, so want easy peasy kills.

Scrubs and ex-skyrim players with 0 mmo exp fail to realize:

1)tanks are ment to take damage NOT doing damage or heal.
2)DD's are ment to deal damage and not heal+tank.
3)healers are ment to sustain a fair amount of damage while healing them+allies while not being able to dish out dps.


Nobody here is talking about 40k+++ HP tanks, but you failed to realize this as well i assume.

Is 1997 aware you are missing? You are failing to realize that only games that respect the "Holy Trinity" work this way.

Gone are the days where tanks only tank, healers only heal and all dps wear light/medium armor and die in 3 hits.

This is what you get when you can spec how you want and are allowed to hybridize. In fact, "play how you want" was one the largest selling points and remains so.

This is from someone with 22 years of MMO experience. Your preconceptions are outdated.

Nicko_Lps

Xeniph wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Because:
"Waaah big scary tanks stole my wife and killed my dog, I wan a hard counter because I can't kill them waaah"
Tl;dr Scrubs don't realize how quickly tanky builds (that aren't useless no dmg ones) die when they are locked down and pressured, so want easy peasy kills.

Scrubs and ex-skyrim players with 0 mmo exp fail to realize:

1)tanks are ment to take damage NOT doing damage or heal.
2)DD's are ment to deal damage and not heal+tank.
3)healers are ment to sustain a fair amount of damage while healing them+allies while not being able to dish out dps.


Nobody here is talking about 40k+++ HP tanks, but you failed to realize this as well i assume.

Is 1997 aware you are missing? You are failing to realize that only games that respect the "Holy Trinity" worth this way.

Gone are the days where tanks only tank, healers only heal and all dps wear light/medium armor and die in 3 hits.

This is what you get when you can spec how you want and are allowed to hybridize. In fact, "play how you want" was one the largest selling point and remains so.

This is from someone with 22 years of MMO experience. Your preconceptions are outdated.

If you have 22 years of MMO experience (LOL) You should see how terribly balanced ESO is, but im quite sure that youre that EX-Skyrim player.

If you are a PvE player, i can understand your PoV since you know nothing about cyrodiil.
Now when you see a tank bursting more damage than a magsorc and bursting down 2 shields in 2 sec while whole forum is whining about shields its balanced right? While magsorcs can burst non-tanks fairly, unlike gods of burst stamblades ofc that 2key burst.


Balance?
Tanks doing more burst from glassy builds?
22 years MMO experience ?
GG

IlCanis_LupuslI

@Nicko_Lps they poison dot+bleed dot+dawnbreakerDot+ Some still using sload dot and to even get more crazy? Stack on top of that axe bleeds + WW bleeds.
Well as a quick reminder. And good luck using that dbos and recharging 300 ult in 3-5 seconds that these dots last.
Leave werewolf out of this. At this time werewolves are close to extinction we don't need some theory bs what will never work in Praxis.

Nicko_Lps

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

@Nicko_Lps they poison dot+bleed dot+dawnbreakerDot+ Some still using sload dot and to even get more crazy? Stack on top of that axe bleeds + WW bleeds.
Well as a quick reminder. And good luck using that dbos and recharging 300 ult in 3-5 seconds that these dots last.
Leave werewolf out of this. At this time werewolves are close to extinction we don't need some theory bs what will never work in Praxis.

Yeap they are close to extinct thats the reason they pull out so much damage from just 3 keys. Yep its balanced.

As about that stacking part read above.

Xeniph

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Because:
"Waaah big scary tanks stole my wife and killed my dog, I wan a hard counter because I can't kill them waaah"
Tl;dr Scrubs don't realize how quickly tanky builds (that aren't useless no dmg ones) die when they are locked down and pressured, so want easy peasy kills.

Scrubs and ex-skyrim players with 0 mmo exp fail to realize:

1)tanks are ment to take damage NOT doing damage or heal.
2)DD's are ment to deal damage and not heal+tank.
3)healers are ment to sustain a fair amount of damage while healing them+allies while not being able to dish out dps.


Nobody here is talking about 40k+++ HP tanks, but you failed to realize this as well i assume.

Is 1997 aware you are missing? You are failing to realize that only games that respect the "Holy Trinity" worth this way.

Gone are the days where tanks only tank, healers only heal and all dps wear light/medium armor and die in 3 hits.

This is what you get when you can spec how you want and are allowed to hybridize. In fact, "play how you want" was one the largest selling point and remains so.

This is from someone with 22 years of MMO experience. Your preconceptions are outdated.

If you have 22 years of MMO experience (LOL) You should see how terribly balanced ESO is, but im quite sure that youre that EX-Skyrim player.

If you are a PvE player, i can understand your PoV since you know nothing about cyrodiil.
Now when you see a tank bursting more damage than a magsorc and bursting down 2 shields in 2 sec while whole forum is whining about shields its balanced right? While magsorcs can burst non-tanks fairly, unlike gods of burst stamblades ofc that 2key burst.


Balance?
Tanks doing more burst from glassy builds?
22 years MMO experience ?
GG

You can deflect all you like. However no build in heavy armor in Cyrodiil "outbursts" anyone speced glass cannon. The success of those builds come from sustained pressure with good survivability.

If ANY "glass cannon" is being out bursted by ANY heavy armor build they need to re-evaluate their build/playstyle. Because they are doing it wrong, period.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Because:
"Waaah big scary tanks stole my wife and killed my dog, I wan a hard counter because I can't kill them waaah"
Tl;dr Scrubs don't realize how quickly tanky builds (that aren't useless no dmg ones) die when they are locked down and pressured, so want easy peasy kills.

Scrubs and ex-skyrim players with 0 mmo exp fail to realize:

1)tanks are ment to take damage NOT doing damage or heal.
2)DD's are ment to deal damage and not heal+tank.
3)healers are ment to sustain a fair amount of damage while healing them+allies while not being able to dish out dps.


Nobody here is talking about 40k+++ HP tanks, but you failed to realize this as well i assume.

Is 1997 aware you are missing? You are failing to realize that only games that respect the "Holy Trinity" worth this way.

Gone are the days where tanks only tank, healers only heal and all dps wear light/medium armor and die in 3 hits.

This is what you get when you can spec how you want and are allowed to hybridize. In fact, "play how you want" was one the largest selling point and remains so.

This is from someone with 22 years of MMO experience. Your preconceptions are outdated.

If you have 22 years of MMO experience (LOL) You should see how terribly balanced ESO is, but im quite sure that youre that EX-Skyrim player.

If you are a PvE player, i can understand your PoV since you know nothing about cyrodiil.
Now when you see a tank bursting more damage than a magsorc and bursting down 2 shields in 2 sec while whole forum is whining about shields its balanced right? While magsorcs can burst non-tanks fairly, unlike gods of burst stamblades ofc that 2key burst.


Balance?
Tanks doing more burst from glassy builds?
22 years MMO experience ?
GG

I've played since launch on console and I can say something certain : if a Magsorc in this patch with the usual crazy sustain perma shielding gets bursted in 2seconds by a bruiser the Magsorc is either a) afk
b) very inexperienced on that character and has no clue how to play play that character in a defensive situation. =>forgot to shield him self.
If 2 equally skilled players meet 1 on a bruiser the other 1 on Magsorc it will usually end in a stalemate since the sorc has a better defence in a 1vs1 situation but lacks the burst to kill the bruiser(usually)

Nicko_Lps

Xeniph wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Because:
"Waaah big scary tanks stole my wife and killed my dog, I wan a hard counter because I can't kill them waaah"
Tl;dr Scrubs don't realize how quickly tanky builds (that aren't useless no dmg ones) die when they are locked down and pressured, so want easy peasy kills.

Scrubs and ex-skyrim players with 0 mmo exp fail to realize:

1)tanks are ment to take damage NOT doing damage or heal.
2)DD's are ment to deal damage and not heal+tank.
3)healers are ment to sustain a fair amount of damage while healing them+allies while not being able to dish out dps.


Nobody here is talking about 40k+++ HP tanks, but you failed to realize this as well i assume.

Is 1997 aware you are missing? You are failing to realize that only games that respect the "Holy Trinity" worth this way.

Gone are the days where tanks only tank, healers only heal and all dps wear light/medium armor and die in 3 hits.

This is what you get when you can spec how you want and are allowed to hybridize. In fact, "play how you want" was one the largest selling point and remains so.

This is from someone with 22 years of MMO experience. Your preconceptions are outdated.

If you have 22 years of MMO experience (LOL) You should see how terribly balanced ESO is, but im quite sure that youre that EX-Skyrim player.

If you are a PvE player, i can understand your PoV since you know nothing about cyrodiil.
Now when you see a tank bursting more damage than a magsorc and bursting down 2 shields in 2 sec while whole forum is whining about shields its balanced right? While magsorcs can burst non-tanks fairly, unlike gods of burst stamblades ofc that 2key burst.


Balance?
Tanks doing more burst from glassy builds?
22 years MMO experience ?
GG

You can deflect all you like. However no build in heavy armor in Cyrodiil "outbursts" anyone speced glass cannon. The success of those builds come from sustained pressure with good survivability.

If ANY "glass cannon" is being out bursted by ANY heavy armor build they need to re-evaluate their build/playstyle. Because they are doing it wrong, period.

I can deflect because i have the 90% of my free+game time inside cyrodiil.
Now you can deflect the reality that is presented to you as much as you like, im not here to force you.


People running heavy armor inside cyrodiil to cover up their messy mistakes, as a heavy armor tankling can do several mistakes before it dies. Now a glassy build specially like mine, 1 mistake is enough YET HIS burst on ME is way better than MY burst on HIM and THAT itself is not balance. Try to analyze that, try alot.

Crixus8000

Bleeds are already meta, and are still powerful against shields. The easiest time I ever had against sorcs was when I tried out bleeds. Even though they can't crit or penetrate shields they still add an insane amount of pressure to the point the sorc can't keep up.