Evasion: Reduced the cost of this ability and its morphs by 15%.

anatole1234

Thank god! was about time.

jcm2606

No where near enough. Forward Momentum is still about 3x more cost effective for the snare immunity it gives compared to Shuffle.

Shuffle would now cost about 3305 stamina for 2.5 seconds of snare immunity, assuming 5 medium. Forward Momentum still costs 1783 stamina for 4 seconds of snare immunity, again assuming 5 medium.

BaylorCorvette

It's a start, would like to see at least another 5-10% reduction in cost though.

Silver_Strider

It's a step in the right direction at least.

likecats

jcm2606 wrote: »

No where near enough. Forward Momentum is still about 3x more cost effective for the snare immunity it gives compared to Shuffle.

Shuffle would now cost about 3305 stamina for 2.5 seconds of snare immunity, assuming 5 medium. Forward Momentum still costs 1783 stamina for 4 seconds of snare immunity, again assuming 5 medium.

If snare immunity was the only purpose of these skills, then your comment would make complete sense.
However, these abilities provide different buffs and come at different opportunity costs.

Shuffle provides 25% resistance to AOE damage which are currently very prevalent in PVP.
This might make medium armor tankier vs the standard DB + Spin2Win spammers than heavy armor. It will also reduce 25% damage by curse, jabs, subAssault, leap, meteor, destro ulti, proxy det, and more.

Forward momentum provides a weak, albeit a useful HoT.

Forward momentum also provides Major Brutality, but realistically this is a very easy buff to get for virtually everyone.

If you make Shuffle and FM equally cost efficient at snare removal, you'll simply end up having most people use Rally + Shuffle, and FM would become useless.

MashmalloMan

likecats wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

No where near enough. Forward Momentum is still about 3x more cost effective for the snare immunity it gives compared to Shuffle.

Shuffle would now cost about 3305 stamina for 2.5 seconds of snare immunity, assuming 5 medium. Forward Momentum still costs 1783 stamina for 4 seconds of snare immunity, again assuming 5 medium.

If snare immunity was the only purpose of these skills, then your comment would make complete sense.
However, these abilities provide different buffs and come at different opportunity costs.

Shuffle provides 25% resistance to AOE damage which are currently very prevalent in PVP.
This might make medium armor tankier vs the standard DB + Spin2Win spammers than heavy armor. It will also reduce 25% damage by curse, jabs, subAssault, leap, meteor, destro ulti, proxy det, and more.

Forward momentum provides a weak, albeit a useful HoT.

Forward momentum also provides Major Brutality, but realistically this is a very easy buff to get for virtually everyone.

If you make Shuffle and FM equally cost efficient at snare removal, you'll simply end up having most people use Rally + Shuffle, and FM would become useless.

Thank you, well put. However heavy armor can simply use DW and blade cloak to get great mitigation + aoe dmg reduction, this buff is not new I don't understand why people act like it is. I'd rather have aoe dmg reduction + dodge chance then JUST aoe dmg reduction, it will become more popular for sure, but it's already available on live.

What I may try doing since FM provides longer immunity and shuffle costs more, I will take off blade cloak because it's harder to manage the duration buff/cost and I need to front bar it, will continue to use FM, but I'll now use Elude.

Crit surge + FM + Elude all have 30sec buffs, hurricane will be the only 15 sec duration buff to manage. Only problem now is bar space.

Shuffle still needs some work imo.

likecats

Marshall1289 wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

No where near enough. Forward Momentum is still about 3x more cost effective for the snare immunity it gives compared to Shuffle.

Shuffle would now cost about 3305 stamina for 2.5 seconds of snare immunity, assuming 5 medium. Forward Momentum still costs 1783 stamina for 4 seconds of snare immunity, again assuming 5 medium.

If snare immunity was the only purpose of these skills, then your comment would make complete sense.
However, these abilities provide different buffs and come at different opportunity costs.

Shuffle provides 25% resistance to AOE damage which are currently very prevalent in PVP.
This might make medium armor tankier vs the standard DB + Spin2Win spammers than heavy armor. It will also reduce 25% damage by curse, jabs, subAssault, leap, meteor, destro ulti, proxy det, and more.

Forward momentum provides a weak, albeit a useful HoT.

Forward momentum also provides Major Brutality, but realistically this is a very easy buff to get for virtually everyone.

If you make Shuffle and FM equally cost efficient at snare removal, you'll simply end up having most people use Rally + Shuffle, and FM would become useless.

Thank you, well put. However heavy armor can simply use DW and blade cloak to get great mitigation + aoe dmg reduction, this buff is not new I don't understand why people act like it is. I'd rather have aoe dmg reduction + dodge chance then JUST aoe dmg reduction, it will become more popular for sure, but it's already available on live.

What I may try doing since FM provides longer immunity and shuffle costs more, I will take off blade cloak because it's harder to manage the duration buff/cost and I need to front bar it, will continue to use FM, but I'll now use Elude.

Crit surge + FM + Elude all have 30sec buffs, hurricane will be the only 15 sec duration buff to manage. Only problem now is bar space.

Shuffle still needs some work imo.

I agree, shuffle could still use slightly more cost reduction maybe at 25% instead of the current 15%.

My response was in context of comparing shuffle and FM exclusively for the snare immunity, when the two abilities are simply quite different.

jcm2606

likecats wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

No where near enough. Forward Momentum is still about 3x more cost effective for the snare immunity it gives compared to Shuffle.

Shuffle would now cost about 3305 stamina for 2.5 seconds of snare immunity, assuming 5 medium. Forward Momentum still costs 1783 stamina for 4 seconds of snare immunity, again assuming 5 medium.

If snare immunity was the only purpose of these skills, then your comment would make complete sense.
However, these abilities provide different buffs and come at different opportunity costs.

Shuffle provides 25% resistance to AOE damage which are currently very prevalent in PVP.
This might make medium armor tankier vs the standard DB + Spin2Win spammers than heavy armor. It will also reduce 25% damage by curse, jabs, subAssault, leap, meteor, destro ulti, proxy det, and more.

Forward momentum provides a weak, albeit a useful HoT.

Forward momentum also provides Major Brutality, but realistically this is a very easy buff to get for virtually everyone.

If you make Shuffle and FM equally cost efficient at snare removal, you'll simply end up having most people use Rally + Shuffle, and FM would become useless.

25% resistance to AOE damage in no way accounts for the skill costing 3 times that of a skill other people already use en masse.

They are different, though, which I outlined in a different thread of mine where I compared the costs more in depth. I just really think 2H should not have the best snare removal and immunity tool in the game, as that is central to the whole heavy-armour-swift-spin2win meta: access to cheap and long snare immunity. Medium should have the best snare removal and immunity tool in the game, in my opinion.

But really, who uses Shuffle for the AOE reduction, or even the passive dodge? Even with the Rally+Shuffle combo, Shuffle was replacing Forward Momentum for snare immunity. So I do think it is fair to compare them on that, given that's the main reason people run them both.

Strider__Roshin

Still not worth using.

SodanTok

jcm2606 wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

No where near enough. Forward Momentum is still about 3x more cost effective for the snare immunity it gives compared to Shuffle.

Shuffle would now cost about 3305 stamina for 2.5 seconds of snare immunity, assuming 5 medium. Forward Momentum still costs 1783 stamina for 4 seconds of snare immunity, again assuming 5 medium.

If snare immunity was the only purpose of these skills, then your comment would make complete sense.
However, these abilities provide different buffs and come at different opportunity costs.

Shuffle provides 25% resistance to AOE damage which are currently very prevalent in PVP.
This might make medium armor tankier vs the standard DB + Spin2Win spammers than heavy armor. It will also reduce 25% damage by curse, jabs, subAssault, leap, meteor, destro ulti, proxy det, and more.

Forward momentum provides a weak, albeit a useful HoT.

Forward momentum also provides Major Brutality, but realistically this is a very easy buff to get for virtually everyone.

If you make Shuffle and FM equally cost efficient at snare removal, you'll simply end up having most people use Rally + Shuffle, and FM would become useless.

25% resistance to AOE damage in no way accounts for the skill costing 3 times that of a skill other people already use en masse.

They are different, though, which I outlined in a different thread of mine where I compared the costs more in depth. I just really think 2H should not have the best snare removal and immunity tool in the game, as that is central to the whole heavy-armour-swift-spin2win meta: access to cheap and long snare immunity. Medium should have the best snare removal and immunity tool in the game, in my opinion.

But really, who uses Shuffle for the AOE reduction, or even the passive dodge? Even with the Rally+Shuffle combo, Shuffle was replacing Forward Momentum for snare immunity. So I do think it is fair to compare them on that, given that's the main reason people run them both.

Lets be real here.
FM on ordinary heavy armor build is at lowest 2852 stamina for 4sec of immunity.
Shuffle on ordinary medium armor build will be at highest 3304 stamina for at least 2.5sec if Immunity.

Is FM cheaper? Sure. Is it more cost effective snare immunity? Sure. Does shuffle cost 3 times more? Lol no. Is FM 3 times more cost effective on HA than shuffle on medium? Lol no.

And this constant disregarding of Evasion is just stupid. It was so powerful mitigation tool when it was passive dodge chance and it will be even more powerful mitigation tool now...

I cant believe there are people complaining about this skill when it will get nerfed before next chapter for how powerful it is.