Speed pots

Mihael

The speed pot nerf is a prime example of how zos fixes problems in eso instead of taking it 1 step at a time and seeing what the cause of the problem actually is they just blanket nerf everything. The problem with speed is swift not speed pots and we could have verified this is zos had taking solving the problem 1 step at a time instead of nerfing all possible causes.

Every single time you introduce a broken set with a new dlc you have no problem letting us suffer for 6+ month because you want to slowly fix the problem (example: homestead proc sets, zaan, sloads, etc) so why cant you now take the same approach

Brutusmax1mus

Krotha wrote: »

I cannot begin to tell you how much I enjoy my major expedition potions. For many of us, consuming a major expedition potion was like chugging a Four Loko before Prom, a Friday night football game, or your morning math class. ESO Four Lokos gives us orcs great strength and phenomenal looking buns. An ESO Four Loko can grant courage, bravery and an unquenchable drive to outrun or chase down a zerg. Tell me @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @ZOS_Wrobel how will I explain to new generations of players what once was "Orc Joose"? How can you regulate the PvP community's favorite premium malt beverage by reducing the duration. Please, do not kill our buzz. By reducing major expedition you are ending an era of fast-paced PvP which has been an integral part of the PvP community. You are adding a speed limit to a road that does not need one.

I agree with the swift changes to jewelry. Swift + Major Expedition = pre-gaming with 151 rum while taking a strikeout . It's aggressive and I like your style but let's try not to blackout before the Uber gets here shall we?

Why not expand your most popular ESO beverage and come out with a new flavor? Magicka speed potions is a new market that is waiting to be tapped into.

What I fear the most with this change (and why I am actually here) is the impact reducing the duration will have on builds that do not utilize a gap closer. I've played a DW/2H stamina DK for over 4.5 years. 4.5 years! The one constant with that playstyle was the major expedition potion. The duration of the potion allows for a DW/2H build to maintain viability throughout a long fight. Gap closers are not in a place where I can justify using them over another DoT, CC, or Defensive ability. I'm imagining what PvP will be like when I am outnumbered facing legions of new players spamming bow attacks. I simply will not have enough in the tank to get away from the onslaught of range snares and poisons this new patch will surely provide.

Let's do some math to further explain this point. I will use the 40.6 and 12.5 second duration provided in the PTS patch notes (these exclude Alchemy passives to increase duration).

If I am facing an enemy group and we are both out of each other's attack range, about 28m, I have around 3-4 seconds to close the gap between us assuming I do not get rooted or stunned and I constantly sprint. If I am rooted or stunned, add on 1-2 seconds depending on my reaction time or the game's animation effects to finish from break-free. Now we have 6.5-8.5 seconds remaining in the speed buff and I have yet to reach my target. But I was assuming my target wasn't moving so lets add 1 second to make up the distance. That brings us to 5.5-7.5 seconds to use major expedition to continue to run after targets and fight. Let's say I'm able to kill my target in 4 seconds, which is very unlikely. Very unlikely. That would leave me 1.5-3.5 seconds to either LOS, re-position, or charge after another opponent. What if both opponents were ranged? What if during the entire time I had major expedition I was getting spammed with snipe, or chained CC? The benefit of this potion goes out the window when the duration is reduced from 40.6 to 12.5 seconds. If I use the potion to engage, which is the primary purpose, it leaves me no time to escape or move onto another target. The 40.6 second duration allows me to stay in the fight for the entire fight. Not just the beginning.

What are my other options to give myself Major expedition? Quick Cloak? The buff will now last 4 seconds and is relatively expensive to spam for speed and doesn't provide enough duration to run down a target. Chains/Grip? Same issue. The duration is too short for the cost of magicka or the time it takes for the action/animation to take place. Chains/Grip for a stamina class can only be used once in combat before completely gassing a DK. Do I use a Bow and dodge roll? That would force me to completely change up my playstyle and weapons. Not an option.

If I were to use rapid maneuvers, the instant I use any group ability in combat I lose the effect. If I start getting sniped and I use my wings to reflect I will lose the major expedition buff since I technically went in combat by reflecting the projectile. Major expedition potion maintains speed while using defensive and group abilities while also providing the necessary movement without gap closers or a bow. The duration is WHY stamina players use it.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler listen to your community and your reps. Do not go through with this change as it currently stands. Reducing major expedition duration will have a dramatic impact on stamina based PvP and you are giving us little time to thoroughly test the changes.

If I must bribe you I will.

Please do not get rid of our Four Lokos.

Krotha is love.

You just have to slot a gap closer now and use the pots as an escape mechanism.

HackTheMinotaur

Homogenizing play styles again. Stamina Templar, stam warden, stam Dk were all very enjoyable and effective to play without a gap closer. This was a legit play style. Now all will be forced to slot gap closers.

This, plus the shorter duration of forward momentum means 2h front bar is a must.

Boring.

ZOS needs to consider lowering the speed cap instead. This maintains all the current play styles that we enjoy while also fixing speed stacking builds that over perform by stacking swift and major expedition. Just make it so they don’t stack. Simple.

likecats

HackTheMinotaur wrote: »

Homogenizing play styles again. Stamina Templar, stam warden, stam Dk were all very enjoyable and effective to play without a gap closer. This was a legit play style. Now all will be forced to slot gap closers.

This, plus the shorter duration of forward momentum means 2h front bar is a must.

Boring.

ZOS needs to consider lowering the speed cap instead. This maintains all the current play styles that we enjoy while also fixing speed stacking builds that over perform by stacking swift and major expedition. Just make it so they don’t stack. Simple.

In the current high-speed meta virtually everyone is running 2h backbar, dw front bar since there is literally no use of gap closers, and you don't need to mitigate damage since you can LOS so easily.
Reducing the speed up will likely encourage bow use for mobility and 1h1s use for tankyness.

So will have to disagree with you there, reducing speed will likely shake up the currently homogenized 2h+dw meta.

Gnozo

Lutallo wrote: »

They deserved a nerf to 12 seconds. Having 100% uptime on Expedition makes you almost impossible to hit in a laggy situation.

So we nerf Expedition uptime cause the game is laggy af? Instead of fixing the lag?

Nice logic here.

Kadoin

PathwayM wrote: »

These speed potions were over performing for a very long time. So much so that very few other potions were viable options on stamina builds for any context of PvP. This change not-only fixes that issue, but also greatly increases the value of Infused + Potion Cooldown jewelry. This is kind of cool since the durations for Unstoppable and Major Expedition are more in line and can both be granted better uptime with the investment of those traits/enchantments.

This also makes the value of other sources that grant Major Expedition to go up which is a very good thing, even with the recent nerfs to abilities that grant it. Major Expedition is by far the most powerful buff in Cyrodiil and is now in a much better place and requires effort to maintain it; this is a great change.

I use major expedition + lingering even on my mag chars because its that op. With maxed alchemy... I have no idea who thought it would be a good idea for a potion to give a buff 100% of the time. I'm guessing it's the same guy who thought it was a good idea to make a set that gives a poison 100% debuff time...

leeofham

Kadoin wrote: »

I use major expedition + lingering even on my mag chars because its that op. With maxed alchemy... I have no idea who thought it would be a good idea for a potion to give a buff 100% of the time. I'm guessing it's the same guy who thought it was a good idea to make a set that gives a poison 100% debuff time...

With the "I have no idea who thought it would be a good idea for a potion to give a buff 100% of the time" I guess the next logical step is to nerf all potions with a 100% uptime....... like nerf weapon, spell power, lingering health, endurance, intellect, savagery, prophecy potions etc etc etc. I guess its time for ZOS to redesign all alchemy and potions................

OR
Lag, swift and unlimited snare immunity was the problem not potions or expedition. A speed cap in PVP or the way that speed stacks would have been the sensible option to fix.

Maryal

likecats wrote: »

HackTheMinotaur wrote: »

Homogenizing play styles again. Stamina Templar, stam warden, stam Dk were all very enjoyable and effective to play without a gap closer. This was a legit play style. Now all will be forced to slot gap closers.

This, plus the shorter duration of forward momentum means 2h front bar is a must.

Boring.

ZOS needs to consider lowering the speed cap instead. This maintains all the current play styles that we enjoy while also fixing speed stacking builds that over perform by stacking swift and major expedition. Just make it so they don’t stack. Simple.

In the current high-speed meta virtually everyone is running 2h backbar, dw front bar since there is literally no use of gap closers, and you don't need to mitigate damage since you can LOS so easily.
Reducing the speed up will likely encourage bow use for mobility and 1h1s use for tankyness.

So will have to disagree with you there, reducing speed will likely shake up the currently homogenized 2h+dw meta.

I don't know about anyone else, but when I use my gap closer (ambush) I'm lucky if it works. I either end up inside my target, on the far side of my target (target behind me, not in front of me), or my toon doesn't move although I hear the ability go off. And ... it's not that the target is moving, they aren't. When gap closers don't work there is not much point in using them. When my gap closer doesn't work, speed is my other option, and IMO, not as good as my gap closer (but better than nothing).

Bitmun

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Good change to SPeed Pots, nerf was needed.

Speed builds are too OP to catch currently!

Blame Swift users, which can only run away or joggling around you like crazy. (Swift REALLY OP in stam premades, it needed a change). Truly mighty stam warriors have done nothing to destroy their favourite aggressive fast-paced playstyle. :P

Bitmun

Kadoin wrote: »

PathwayM wrote: »

These speed potions were over performing for a very long time. So much so that very few other potions were viable options on stamina builds for any context of PvP. This change not-only fixes that issue, but also greatly increases the value of Infused + Potion Cooldown jewelry. This is kind of cool since the durations for Unstoppable and Major Expedition are more in line and can both be granted better uptime with the investment of those traits/enchantments.

This also makes the value of other sources that grant Major Expedition to go up which is a very good thing, even with the recent nerfs to abilities that grant it. Major Expedition is by far the most powerful buff in Cyrodiil and is now in a much better place and requires effort to maintain it; this is a great change.

I use major expedition + lingering even on my mag chars because its that op. With maxed alchemy... I have no idea who thought it would be a good idea for a potion to give a buff 100% of the time. I'm guessing it's the same guy who thought it was a good idea to make a set that gives a poison 100% debuff time...

It's not OP, it just makes the fight fun. :P

Crixus8000

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

You just have to slot a gap closer now and use the pots as an escape mechanism.

That's not how solo play works. Your basically saying that we should only engage a fight every 45 seconds, gap close in attack one guy then use a pot to escape and repeat. Without the speed we won't be able to fight outnumbered.

Haashhtaag

DW is

likecats wrote: »

HackTheMinotaur wrote: »

Homogenizing play styles again. Stamina Templar, stam warden, stam Dk were all very enjoyable and effective to play without a gap closer. This was a legit play style. Now all will be forced to slot gap closers.

This, plus the shorter duration of forward momentum means 2h front bar is a must.

Boring.

ZOS needs to consider lowering the speed cap instead. This maintains all the current play styles that we enjoy while also fixing speed stacking builds that over perform by stacking swift and major expedition. Just make it so they don’t stack. Simple.

In the current high-speed meta virtually everyone is running 2h backbar, dw front bar since there is literally no use of gap closers, and you don't need to mitigate damage since you can LOS so easily.
Reducing the speed up will likely encourage bow use for mobility and 1h1s use for tankyness.

So will have to disagree with you there, reducing speed will likely shake up the currently homogenized 2h+dw meta.

Dw is so popular because master DW bleeds are so damn strong.

Irylia

Hixtory wrote: »

This nerf was needed, stop complaining on that. The introduction to swift brought a lot of cancer builds to the game, specially the stamsorcs spamming dark deal without any counters (basically inmune with the spam of forward momentun)

So yeah, deal with it

“Insightful”

katorga

Get real, by next DLC PTS players will be complaining that 18% swift and 16 seconds of expedition is "over-performing", that stacking mitigation and shields is "over-performing", and that sorc shield stacking still needs to be nerfed.

Hixtory

Irylia wrote: »

Hixtory wrote: »

This nerf was needed, stop complaining on that. The introduction to swift brought a lot of cancer builds to the game, specially the stamsorcs spamming dark deal without any counters (basically inmune with the spam of forward momentun)

So yeah, deal with it

“Insightful”

"Thank you"