Speed pots

Neloth290

Speed pots have been part and parcel of almost every solo/smallscale stam build for a long time. The latest nerf will cause a lot of adverse effects on the solo/small scale community without really hurting large groups. I understand that speed pots probably deserved a nerf due to the fact that the uptime was basically 100% but the current change to 12 seconds from 45 seconds will make them unused they lose all of there desirability. Instead I would propose that the uptime be increased to 30 seconds and that magicka speed pots are also added to offer mag builds some much needed mobility. This increase would make the pots decent to good but no where near how gud they were or how weak they will be if the current changes go through. Why would I bother touching them next patch when I can use tripots which will give me a much better return offering me utility by giving me back mag for cleanses dark deals cloaks wings etc. and a quick heal. rather than very poor uptime on major expedition. I understand your intentions with all these changes and I appreciate the thought but these changes just appear to be killing solo and smallscale.

pieratsos

Or they could actually buff major expedition abilities instead which were butchered because of those stupid pots.

zyk

It's another example of how little care this developer shows towards its players. Through the nerfs to mobility, they are removing playstyles from the game players have enjoyed for years.

It's all part of their ongoing effort to better enable their slow whales to achieve success by raising the floor and lowering the ceiling.

All hail the slow (reflexes) zerging earthgored 35k hp masses.

BaylorCorvette

Major Expedition from bow roll dodging is looking real good

Neloth290

the bow passive would look better if it didnt get nerfed. granted it isnt a big nerf but still annoying

Hixtory

This nerf was needed, stop complaining on that. The introduction to swift brought a lot of cancer builds to the game, specially the stamsorcs spamming dark deal without any counters (basically inmune with the spam of forward momentun)

So yeah, deal with it

usmcjdking

zyk wrote: »

It's another example of how little care this developer shows towards its players. Through the nerfs to mobility, they removing playstyles from the game players have enjoyed for years.

It's all part of their ongoing effort to better enable their slow whales to achieve success by raising the floor and lowering the ceiling.

All hail the slow (reflexes) zerging earthgored 35k hp masses.

To be fair, this isn't necessarily true. Major Expedition wasn't tremendously important until mid 2016 with the rise of procsets, ravage poisons, massive dodge nerf, which resulted in the dramatic increase in damage being done by the potato zerglings.

All the potatoes that could barely hit the broad side of the barn for 700-800 dmg light attacks all the sudden could get gear that made those light attacks do north of 6-7k total damage.

You just can't eat damage like that, so the best method of not taking 6-7k damage from a single light attack became to simply not get hit wherein with all the undodgeable crap in the game, LOS is king.

Neloth290

Hixtory wrote: »

This nerf was needed, stop complaining on that. The introduction to swift brought a lot of cancer builds to the game, specially the stamsorcs spamming dark deal without any counters (basically inmune with the spam of forward momentun)

So yeah, deal with it

Completely agree that swift was too strong but these other nerfs were a little harsh.

jcm2606

Hixtory wrote: »

This nerf was needed, stop complaining on that. The introduction to swift brought a lot of cancer builds to the game, specially the stamsorcs spamming dark deal without any counters (basically inmune with the spam of forward momentun)

So yeah, deal with it

So is it swift or Major Expedition? Make up your mind.

zyk

usmcjdking wrote: »

To be fair, this isn't necessarily true. Major Expedition wasn't tremendously important until mid 2016 with the rise of procsets, ravage poisons, massive dodge nerf, which resulted in the dramatic increase in damage being done by the potato zerglings.

Mid-2016 was years ago.

But I disagree about the importance of Major Expedition. Speed buffs have been an essential tool since before the introduction of the Major/Minor buff system and the high mobility stam playstyle has been widely relevant since 1.6.

It should also be noted that until 2.3, rapids was applied to all allies and not just group members. That was essential for randoms and small groups fighting ball groups.

Today, mobility is essential for fighting faction stacks. Hit and run tactics are essential and will be far more difficult when this update goes live. These changes will result in more stacks and benefit ball groups the most.

Synapsis123

More ball groups = more lag. Ball groups should be discourage and punished. Earthgore is one of the problems and rapids is the other.

Lutallo

They deserved a nerf to 12 seconds. Having 100% uptime on Expedition makes you almost impossible to hit in a laggy situation.

Hixtory

jcm2606 wrote: »

Hixtory wrote: »

This nerf was needed, stop complaining on that. The introduction to swift brought a lot of cancer builds to the game, specially the stamsorcs spamming dark deal without any counters (basically inmune with the spam of forward momentun)

So yeah, deal with it

So is it swift or Major Expedition? Make up your mind.

Why?, they were both OP and everyone knows it, so is a well received nerf. And I do have a stamsorc build with who I play from time to time.

They both needed a nerf, but I have to recon making it only 12s is a overkill, half the duration would be fine

jcm2606

Hixtory wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Hixtory wrote: »

This nerf was needed, stop complaining on that. The introduction to swift brought a lot of cancer builds to the game, specially the stamsorcs spamming dark deal without any counters (basically inmune with the spam of forward momentun)

So yeah, deal with it

So is it swift or Major Expedition? Make up your mind.

Why?, they were both OP and everyone knows it, so is a well received nerf. And I do have a stamsorc build with who I play from time to time.

They both needed a nerf, but I have to recon making it only 12s is a overkill, half the duration would be fine

If both were OP, then why did the complaining only start when swift was introduced? Prior to the introduction of swift, I don't recall seeing much complaining about speed, more about immunity to snares thanks to Forward Momentum.

Still, at least we agree in that the nerfs are way overkill.

likecats

jcm2606 wrote: »

Hixtory wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Hixtory wrote: »

This nerf was needed, stop complaining on that. The introduction to swift brought a lot of cancer builds to the game, specially the stamsorcs spamming dark deal without any counters (basically inmune with the spam of forward momentun)

So yeah, deal with it

So is it swift or Major Expedition? Make up your mind.

Why?, they were both OP and everyone knows it, so is a well received nerf. And I do have a stamsorc build with who I play from time to time.

They both needed a nerf, but I have to recon making it only 12s is a overkill, half the duration would be fine

If both were OP, then why did the complaining only start when swift was introduced? Prior to the introduction of swift, I don't recall seeing much complaining about speed, more about immunity to snares thanks to Forward Momentum.

Still, at least we agree in that the nerfs are way overkill.

Forum complaining really isn't a metric of what is OP or what is not. Primarily because the forum generally only focuses on the MOST OP thing. Immov pots pre-nerf were far more problematic (OP) than speed pots, and you'll see fair amounts of forum threads highlighting just that.

Swift on the other hand made everything stam brokenly OP, as it actually messed with the targeting of the game itself. It is truly in it's own level of brokeness.

Now regarding speed pots,
In the past 2+ years, stam has literally dominated openworld pvp and BG's, primarily because of speed. The only magicka class that comes close to stamina dominance was Mag Sorc, for an unsurprising reason, MOBILITY.

Just because stam dominated pvp does not mean stam is inherently strong, a stamina toon without speed pots is just as weak as a magplar in openworld pvp. The only outlier, that made stam classes so much better in pvp compared to magicka classes, for the PAST 2+ YEARS is speed pots (since a magicka equivalent does not exist).

Go out and try playing a stamina classes with any other pot that is not a speed pot, and you will feel the difference in the OPness of movement speed in this game and by extension of speed pots which provide 100% uptime of this movement speed. If you don't feel a difference, then I'll admit that speed pots are not OP.

I can guarantee people will still chug speed pots post-nerf because movement speed is just that strong in PVP. Immov nerf did not stop people from using immov, because that is also very strong in PVP.


Just want to clarify, I'm not necessarily for this speed pot nerf, I just want ZOS to either give magicka a speed potion or bring the stamina variant more in line with the other potions. Balance can be achieved either way.

Ariades_swe

A lowered speed cap would have been the best solution.
Minor expedition, nerfed swift and 100 percent uptime on major would still be too much of a stacking for people to deal with cause of the *** targeting.
I'll still run 3xswift on my magplar and magdk
With the windrunning cp I will have a constant 20% speedboost which gonna be even more valuable with the nerf to major expedition uptime across the board.

PathwayM

These speed potions were over performing for a very long time. So much so that very few other potions were viable options on stamina builds for any context of PvP. This change not-only fixes that issue, but also greatly increases the value of Infused + Potion Cooldown jewelry. This is kind of cool since the durations for Unstoppable and Major Expedition are more in line and can both be granted better uptime with the investment of those traits/enchantments.

This also makes the value of other sources that grant Major Expedition to go up which is a very good thing, even with the recent nerfs to abilities that grant it. Major Expedition is by far the most powerful buff in Cyrodiil and is now in a much better place and requires effort to maintain it; this is a great change.

Ariades_swe

PathwayM wrote: »

These speed potions were over performing for a very long time. So much so that very few other potions were viable options on stamina builds for any context of PvP. This change not-only fixes that issue, but also greatly increases the value of Infused + Potion Cooldown jewelry. This is kind of cool since the durations for Unstoppable and Major Expedition are more in line and can both be granted better uptime with the investment of those traits/enchantments.

This also makes the value of other sources that grant Major Expedition to go up which is a very good thing, even with the recent nerfs to abilities that grant it. Major Expedition is by far the most powerful buff in Cyrodiil and is now in a much better place and requires effort to maintain it; this is a great change.

Excactly. Very nice post.

Rianai

1. Speed potions were used mostly by solo and small scale players, they didn't see much use for ball grps and zergs - the latter is by far the bigger part in PvP. So overall it was a rather small portion who used speed pots.
2. Just because something is used a lot doesn't mean it is op. Could also mean that it is more or less mandatory for certain builds/playstyles without viable alternatives.

By your logic Vigor is op, because every single stam build uses it instead of other stam heals, and it should be nerfed to make Draining Shot more valuable, while at the same time nerfing said skill too, because healing as a whole is suddenly considered op. That's how the "speed issue" was approached.

Asgari

The speed pot change is *** and needs to be undone .. the nerf to swift is perfect. Major expedition is not an issue. Stop focusing on the wrong things, It legit makes it impossible now for stam to play small scale.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel


How many times have you all said over the years we need pvp players to spread out and not group as deep as it has been the past year. It has significantly gotten worse and worse.

Snares galore and now the removal of speed which is pivotal to stam being relevant in pvp; especially in small scale situations.

CHANGE IT BACK! SWIFT NERF WAS PERFECT!

jcm2606

PathwayM wrote: »

These speed potions were over performing for a very long time. So much so that very few other potions were viable options on stamina builds for any context of PvP. This change not-only fixes that issue, but also greatly increases the value of Infused + Potion Cooldown jewelry. This is kind of cool since the durations for Unstoppable and Major Expedition are more in line and can both be granted better uptime with the investment of those traits/enchantments.

This also makes the value of other sources that grant Major Expedition to go up which is a very good thing, even with the recent nerfs to abilities that grant it. Major Expedition is by far the most powerful buff in Cyrodiil and is now in a much better place and requires effort to maintain it; this is a great change.

The problem is, nobody is going to slot a skill for Major Expedition when they have to micromanage a 4 second duration. 4 seconds is way too short, and needs to go up. I personally think 8-12 seconds is a good duration, as it keeps Major Expedition in line with other buffs.

But as it stands currently, it wouldn't surprise me if most PVP players simply ignore Major Expedition, because pots were just gutted and the other alternatives simply aren't viable in the contexts where speed matters.

Speed_Kills

Nerf was needed, glad to see this change. Major exp with 100% uptime was way too strong (even before swift). On Stam characters, don’t sacrifice much at all to use speed immovs.

Nyladreas

zyk wrote: »

It's another example of how little care this developer shows towards its players. Through the nerfs to mobility, they removing playstyles from the game players have enjoyed for years.

It's all part of their ongoing effort to better enable their slow whales to achieve success by raising the floor and lowering the ceiling.

All hail the slow (reflexes) zerging earthgored 35k hp masses.

It's not all reflexes. High speed had the tendency to completely desync and break targeting. It was so bad you could do it purposely and allow your self never to be hit due to poor communication (ping) between the sever and the client.

It often didn't even matter you had AOEs either. It didn't matter how quick you were before someone closed LOS. The game would tell you nope, despite the ass of the person still clearly sticking out some good 2-3 meters before the wall.

Not exactly fair. Especially to our Australian and Kiwi friends.

Haashhtaag

Speed_Kills wrote: »

Nerf was needed, glad to see this change. Major exp with 100% uptime was way too strong (even before swift). On Stam characters, don’t sacrifice much at all to use speed immovs.

Give magicka access to a similar pot would have been a better fix IMO.

Ariades_swe

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Speed_Kills wrote: »

Nerf was needed, glad to see this change. Major exp with 100% uptime was way too strong (even before swift). On Stam characters, don’t sacrifice much at all to use speed immovs.

Give magicka access to a similar pot would have been a better fix IMO.

Still doesnt solve the issue that even with the nerfed swift trait you would be able to have a 100 percent uptime of a 60 percent speedbuff on some classes.
I ran 2 swift plus speedpots which is a 50% speedboost on my magplar and it made me extremely hard to hit.
If expedition pots would stay same I'd just slot 3 swift instead of 2 to get a 50% speedbuff.

brandonv516

I don't feel they will go unused. They will be used reactively now instead of proactively and will be supplemental to skills that provide Major Expedition.

But yes they will be used less.

zyk

Nyladreas wrote: »

It's not all reflexes. High speed had the tendency to completely desync and break targeting. It was so bad you could do it purposely and allow your self never to be hit due to poor communication (ping) between the sever and the client.

It often didn't even matter you had AOEs either. It didn't matter how quick you were before someone closed LOS. The game would tell you nope, despite the ass of the person still clearly sticking out some good 2-3 meters before the wall.

This is a concern that has been expressed by many since Swift builds became Widespread. However, prior to that, it was not.

When Medium stam builds were meta from 1.6 through 2.3 -- and thus faster than the heavy armor stam builds that are more common to day -- this wasn't recognized as a problem.

Therefore, revert the introduction to Swift. Don't nerf a playstyle that's been enjoyed by players for years to facilitate a broken Jewelry trait.

Further, I think the result of less battlefield mobility will be more player consolidation and therefore more lag.

PhoenixGrey

Speed_Kills wrote: »

Nerf was needed, glad to see this change. Major exp with 100% uptime was way too strong (even before swift). On Stam characters, don’t sacrifice much at all to use speed immovs.

Why the hell can't speed buffs be given to mag classes instead ?

Unnerf streak and bring back speedy mist and have a mag speed pot maybe

Everything is just slow and boring now. The average zergling will never use LOS / nor slot mist form / nor have sustain to spam streak
Was a great chance to bring some balance and ZOS blew it as always

Krotha

I cannot begin to tell you how much I enjoy my major expedition potions. For many of us, consuming a major expedition potion was like chugging a Four Loko before Prom, a Friday night football game, or your morning math class. ESO Four Lokos gives us orcs great strength and phenomenal looking buns. An ESO Four Loko can grant courage, bravery and an unquenchable drive to outrun or chase down a zerg. Tell me @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @ZOS_Wrobel how will I explain to new generations of players what once was "Orc Joose"? How can you regulate the PvP community's favorite premium malt beverage by reducing the duration. Please, do not kill our buzz. By reducing major expedition you are ending an era of fast-paced PvP which has been an integral part of the PvP community. You are adding a speed limit to a road that does not need one.

I agree with the swift changes to jewelry. Swift + Major Expedition = pre-gaming with 151 rum while taking a strikeout . It's aggressive and I like your style but let's try not to blackout before the Uber gets here shall we?

Why not expand your most popular ESO beverage and come out with a new flavor? Magicka speed potions is a new market that is waiting to be tapped into.

What I fear the most with this change (and why I am actually here) is the impact reducing the duration will have on builds that do not utilize a gap closer. I've played a DW/2H stamina DK for over 4.5 years. 4.5 years! The one constant with that playstyle was the major expedition potion. The duration of the potion allows for a DW/2H build to maintain viability throughout a long fight. Gap closers are not in a place where I can justify using them over another DoT, CC, or Defensive ability. I'm imagining what PvP will be like when I am outnumbered facing legions of new players spamming bow attacks. I simply will not have enough in the tank to get away from the onslaught of range snares and poisons this new patch will surely provide.

Let's do some math to further explain this point. I will use the 40.6 and 12.5 second duration provided in the PTS patch notes (these exclude Alchemy passives to increase duration).

If I am facing an enemy group and we are both out of each other's attack range, about 28m, I have around 3-4 seconds to close the gap between us assuming I do not get rooted or stunned and I constantly sprint. If I am rooted or stunned, add on 1-2 seconds depending on my reaction time or the game's animation effects to finish from break-free. Now we have 6.5-8.5 seconds remaining in the speed buff and I have yet to reach my target. But I was assuming my target wasn't moving so lets add 1 second to make up the distance. That brings us to 5.5-7.5 seconds to use major expedition to continue to run after targets and fight. Let's say I'm able to kill my target in 4 seconds, which is very unlikely. Very unlikely. That would leave me 1.5-3.5 seconds to either LOS, re-position, or charge after another opponent. What if both opponents were ranged? What if during the entire time I had major expedition I was getting spammed with snipe, or chained CC? The benefit of this potion goes out the window when the duration is reduced from 40.6 to 12.5 seconds. If I use the potion to engage, which is the primary purpose, it leaves me no time to escape or move onto another target. The 40.6 second duration allows me to stay in the fight for the entire fight. Not just the beginning.

What are my other options to give myself Major expedition? Quick Cloak? The buff will now last 4 seconds and is relatively expensive to spam for speed and doesn't provide enough duration to run down a target. Chains/Grip? Same issue. The duration is too short for the cost of magicka or the time it takes for the action/animation to take place. Chains/Grip for a stamina class can only be used once in combat before completely gassing a DK. Do I use a Bow and dodge roll? That would force me to completely change up my playstyle and weapons. Not an option.

If I were to use rapid maneuvers, the instant I use any group ability in combat I lose the effect. If I start getting sniped and I use my wings to reflect I will lose the major expedition buff since I technically went in combat by reflecting the projectile. Major expedition potion maintains speed while using defensive and group abilities while also providing the necessary movement without gap closers or a bow. The duration is WHY stamina players use it.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler listen to your community and your reps. Do not go through with this change as it currently stands. Reducing major expedition duration will have a dramatic impact on stamina based PvP and you are giving us little time to thoroughly test the changes.

If I must bribe you I will.

Please do not get rid of our Four Lokos.

Krotha is love.

Lord_Eomer

Good change to SPeed Pots, nerf was needed.

Speed builds are too OP to catch currently!

Mihael

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Good change to SPeed Pots, nerf was needed.

Speed builds are too OP to catch currently!

this is because of swift not speed pots