Choices for ranged dps pve...Magplar or Magden (after Murkmire)

Joxer61

Ok, so after trying out several classes/builds etc. I have found that with my lag and slower reflexes ranged dps is the choice for me. Just cant hang in melee range, my damage tanks and I cop a lot from delayed time getting out of stupid (Australia really needs to invent the net!) so looking at both magplar and Magden as a ranged choice. Not a fan of Sorc, that's just me and there are sooo many around. Anyways, Warden for the longest time has blown chunks in terms of pve dps (some do well, Liko, Stil and others) and Templar has a decent ranged option now or so I have read/seen. But I like to try and bring a little something to my group other than raw dps cuz truth be known I wont be pumping out the huge numbers so if I can contribute in others ways then I will...so, which of the two brings the most utility as well? I know Templars did with spears so it that still a thing but also wont Wardens now bring the minor toughness groups like?
I have seen the 57k Magden parse and the 63k (DAMN!) Magplar parse, but is 6k difference really that crucial?
Should mention wont be chasing any leaderboards and the like so just your regular runs of trials and dungeons will be the target. Oh, and should add have tried Magblade as well but just didn't feel the class, visually and such. Seems like it should really be played as roguish type up close.
Anyways, not sure of which changes will stick and its hard to get a feel reading posts as SO many are upset over the changes and its mostly the PVP community so makes it tough to weed thru everything to find anything of help. Maybe someone can shed some thought/input on to what each could bring...or not bring.

jypcy

Idk if you have to consider so much what each brings to the group, because imaginably Templars will remain as the most common healer and stamdens will likely become fairly common as melee dps, so chances are you’ll be running with both classes fairly frequently. But if I had to guess, I’d think you’ll be in fewer groups w/o a Templar healer than w/o a stamden, so you might be able to bring a unique buff to the group more often as a magden than as a magplar. But I know that magden can also get decent numbers with a pseudo heavy attack rotation, which I don’t know that a magplar can pull off as well (although maybe they can). If high latency is a concern, you might prefer heavy attack builds to light attack ones and go with the magden also for that reason.

Sparr0w

Magplar are top dps next patch as it stands. 6k dps over a 10 minute fight is up to 3.6 million.

Plus the rotation is nice and easy

Joxer61

Sparr0w wrote: »

Magplar are top dps next patch as it stands. 6k dps over a 10 minute fight is up to 3.6 million.

Plus the rotation is nice and easy

Not worried so much about being "top", just playable and desired in groups.

zTrok

Magdens are going to primarily be used to give the Major Slayer buff with Master Architect, along with popping orbs to give people around them minor toughness. Magplar is going to be a lot less group oriented, but is still able to get quicker reses, which may be more helpful in a progression environment.

Joxer61

zTrok wrote: »

Magdens are going to primarily be used to give the Major Slayer buff with Master Architect, along with popping orbs to give people around them minor toughness. Magplar is going to be a lot less group oriented, but is still able to get quicker reses, which may be more helpful in a progression environment.

That's good to know! And yea, not worried about progression so much so thanks for that insight!! Huge help!

Sparr0w

@Joxer61 Personally I'd go with MagPlar (I already have), wait until this PTS patch note gets released tho to see if there's any warden buffs tho, as currently they're bottom of the barrel with a more complex rotation

Joxer61

Sparr0w wrote: »

@Joxer61 Personally I'd go with MagPlar (I already have), wait until this PTS patch note gets released tho to see if there's any warden buffs tho, as currently they're bottom of the barrel with a more complex rotation

Cheers for that! Let me ask real quick..play it as ranged?

Sparr0w

Joxer61 wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

@Joxer61 Personally I'd go with MagPlar (I already have), wait until this PTS patch note gets released tho to see if there's any warden buffs tho, as currently they're bottom of the barrel with a more complex rotation

Cheers for that! Let me ask real quick..play it as ranged?

@Joxer61 Yeah, MagPlar actually do higher dps range than melee. Ele weapon spammable.

Joxer61

Sparr0w wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

@Joxer61 Personally I'd go with MagPlar (I already have), wait until this PTS patch note gets released tho to see if there's any warden buffs tho, as currently they're bottom of the barrel with a more complex rotation

Cheers for that! Let me ask real quick..play it as ranged?

@Joxer61 Yeah, MagPlar actually do higher dps range than melee. Ele weapon spammable.

you run what Liko posted?

Sparr0w

Joxer61 wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

@Joxer61 Personally I'd go with MagPlar (I already have), wait until this PTS patch note gets released tho to see if there's any warden buffs tho, as currently they're bottom of the barrel with a more complex rotation

Cheers for that! Let me ask real quick..play it as ranged?

@Joxer61 Yeah, MagPlar actually do higher dps range than melee. Ele weapon spammable.

you run what Liko posted?

@Joxer61 Yeah pretty much, tho I have less in thaum and more in master at arms

Joxer61

Sparr0w wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

@Joxer61 Personally I'd go with MagPlar (I already have), wait until this PTS patch note gets released tho to see if there's any warden buffs tho, as currently they're bottom of the barrel with a more complex rotation

Cheers for that! Let me ask real quick..play it as ranged?

@Joxer61 Yeah, MagPlar actually do higher dps range than melee. Ele weapon spammable.

you run what Liko posted?

@Joxer61 Yeah pretty much, tho I have less in thaum and more in master at arms

nice! So I am on the right track then! But you think people will be taking Magplars? Big dps enough to hold a spot? Or will it be the dreaded..."you should be heals" thing?

Sparr0w

Joxer61 wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

@Joxer61 Personally I'd go with MagPlar (I already have), wait until this PTS patch note gets released tho to see if there's any warden buffs tho, as currently they're bottom of the barrel with a more complex rotation

Cheers for that! Let me ask real quick..play it as ranged?

@Joxer61 Yeah, MagPlar actually do higher dps range than melee. Ele weapon spammable.

you run what Liko posted?

@Joxer61 Yeah pretty much, tho I have less in thaum and more in master at arms

nice! So I am on the right track then! But you think people will be taking Magplars? Big dps enough to hold a spot? Or will it be the dreaded..."you should be heals" thing?

@Joxer61
I mean magblades are top dps this patch, but offer little to no group support besides a little off healing (should they choose to sacrifice dps). Even so just the dps and optional off heals are enough to see them into trials.

Next patch magplar being toe to toe (slightly ahead in optimal circumstances) paired with group support, buffs and another synnergy will easily see them in more raid groups.

Joxer61

Sparr0w wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

@Joxer61 Personally I'd go with MagPlar (I already have), wait until this PTS patch note gets released tho to see if there's any warden buffs tho, as currently they're bottom of the barrel with a more complex rotation

Cheers for that! Let me ask real quick..play it as ranged?

@Joxer61 Yeah, MagPlar actually do higher dps range than melee. Ele weapon spammable.

you run what Liko posted?

@Joxer61 Yeah pretty much, tho I have less in thaum and more in master at arms

nice! So I am on the right track then! But you think people will be taking Magplars? Big dps enough to hold a spot? Or will it be the dreaded..."you should be heals" thing?

@Joxer61
I mean magblades are top dps this patch, but offer little to no group support besides a little off healing (should they choose to sacrifice dps). Even so just the dps and optional off heals are enough to see them into trials.

Next patch magplar being toe to toe (slightly ahead in optimal circumstances) paired with group support, buffs and another synnergy will easily see them in more raid groups.

Ok, you convinced me!!! Lets hope the changes stick come live!!! Cheers!!

Danksta

Play any class you want if you and the groups you're playing with don't care to push for scores.

jypcy

Just keep in mind that, should you choose to go with the ele weapon spammable, that’s dependent on la weaving. Maybe I’m overblowing how big an issue high ping is, but if you have trouble weaving then you might have to use something like crushing shock or make a ha build instead, which like said I think magden is more effective at. I have both magden and magplar though and would recommend either.

Joxer61

jypcy wrote: »

Just keep in mind that, should you choose to go with the ele weapon spammable, that’s dependent on la weaving. Maybe I’m overblowing how big an issue high ping is, but if you have trouble weaving then you might have to use something like crushing shock or make a ha build instead, which like said I think magden is more effective at. I have both magden and magplar though and would recommend either.

Yea, lag is a huge deal....many times my bar swaps back to what it was as it reads the keystrokes to late and I have to spam skills sometimes which can lead to running low on resources. Its a tricky thing running with high ping..constant 380-400 really sucks. Dodging is a whole other story...lol...many times to late, thus the need to play ranged.

Sparr0w

jypcy wrote: »

Just keep in mind that, should you choose to go with the ele weapon spammable, that’s dependent on la weaving. Maybe I’m overblowing how big an issue high ping is, but if you have trouble weaving then you might have to use something like crushing shock or make a ha build instead, which like said I think magden is more effective at. I have both magden and magplar though and would recommend either.

Joxer61 wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Just keep in mind that, should you choose to go with the ele weapon spammable, that’s dependent on la weaving. Maybe I’m overblowing how big an issue high ping is, but if you have trouble weaving then you might have to use something like crushing shock or make a ha build instead, which like said I think magden is more effective at. I have both magden and magplar though and would recommend either.

Yea, lag is a huge deal....many times my bar swaps back to what it was as it reads the keystrokes to late and I have to spam skills sometimes which can lead to running low on resources. Its a tricky thing running with high ping..constant 380-400 really sucks. Dodging is a whole other story...lol...many times to late, thus the need to play ranged.

Just adding to this, force pulse or crushing shock is fine to run as an alternative to ele weapon on either a MagPlar or a MagDen (can also run birds), just slightly less dps and sustain, though running 1x recovery glyph alleviates that with minimal dps loss.

jypcy

Sparr0w wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Just keep in mind that, should you choose to go with the ele weapon spammable, that’s dependent on la weaving. Maybe I’m overblowing how big an issue high ping is, but if you have trouble weaving then you might have to use something like crushing shock or make a ha build instead, which like said I think magden is more effective at. I have both magden and magplar though and would recommend either.

Joxer61 wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Just keep in mind that, should you choose to go with the ele weapon spammable, that’s dependent on la weaving. Maybe I’m overblowing how big an issue high ping is, but if you have trouble weaving then you might have to use something like crushing shock or make a ha build instead, which like said I think magden is more effective at. I have both magden and magplar though and would recommend either.

Yea, lag is a huge deal....many times my bar swaps back to what it was as it reads the keystrokes to late and I have to spam skills sometimes which can lead to running low on resources. Its a tricky thing running with high ping..constant 380-400 really sucks. Dodging is a whole other story...lol...many times to late, thus the need to play ranged.

Just adding to this, force pulse or crushing shock is fine to run as an alternative to ele weapon on either a MagPlar or a MagDen (can also run birds), just slightly less dps and sustain, though running 1x recovery glyph alleviates that with minimal dps loss.

And between force pulse and crushing shock, force pulse will give you higher dps but imo the utility from crushing outweighs the small dps gain from FP.

katorga

Isn't Magden the absolute worst PVE dps possible in game?

jypcy

katorga wrote: »

Isn't Magden the absolute worst PVE dps possible in game?

I mean, health-based builds and most if not all hybrid builds probably pull lower dps, so I wouldn’t say that’s accurate.

But even if true, that’s irrelevant here. OP has stated they’re not looking to push scores or anything, they just want a viable, helpful dps char, which both magden and magplar are.

zTrok

katorga wrote: »

Isn't Magden the absolute worst PVE dps possible in game?

People throw that around a lot. This really only affects top tier players in all honesty. I pull 45k solo on magden and would probably be better using my magblade more. I still enjoy my magden more, so I continue to play it.

Joxer61

@jypcy and others.....which do you reckon has the best burst damage? Feels like Magplar is more of ramp of type of damage..lots of dots?

jypcy

What’s your intent with burst damage? Ime it’s not really worth considering for pve. Very few enemies are fragile enough that they can be full-out bursted down, so sustained damage is really the way to go. There might be bursts of damage during that sustain (like shalks/purifying light) but even if you can set up to burst a single target for 100k, that’s going to be trivial when a common enemy might have 200k health.

Edit: and neither really needs to ramp up to damage. You should be doing high damage within a single rotation, so within 8 seconds of starting combat. Damage will increase further when enemies drop into execute, but that’ll be more of a jump point than a gradual ramp up.

Joxer61

jypcy wrote: »

What’s your intent with burst damage? Ime it’s not really worth considering for pve. Very few enemies are fragile enough that they can be full-out bursted down, so sustained damage is really the way to go. There might be bursts of damage during that sustain (like shalks/purifying light) but even if you can set up to burst a single target for 100k, that’s going to be trivial when a common enemy might have 200k health.

Edit: and neither really needs to ramp up to damage. You should be doing high damage within a single rotation, so within 8 seconds of starting combat. Damage will increase further when enemies drop into execute, but that’ll be more of a jump point than a gradual ramp up.

Thanks for that. Was just noticing that as magplar things didn't die "as quick" as they did with magden (still levelling both mind you) so looked at the skills and Templar has more dots whereas the Warden seems to have inst hits, except the flies.So yea, was more just an observation more than anything.

Tinus_92

Magden may have more burst damage as a magplar, but I've always happily played the magplar as main DPS. It was down a few patches but they're back, and stronger then ever. Hitting 35k single without support, without maelstrom and without BIS gear (still lacking siroria's.) Then considering my rotation isn't flawless either. In raid environments the results are much higher obviously. That's the current patch, with the improvements to blazing spear (main AoE spammable) & radiant destruction execute the magplar will receive a huge improvement. You'll be able to melt down mobs from a ranged position while also giving the group support with picking up your spears.

Another advantage, but this counts for both, is that you can easily swap gears and skills to go with a healer build on the same char.

As for me the magicka classes are coming closer to each other in playing style as you can use the main spammable (elemental weapon) for each of them; then add in a single target dot or two, a class AoE dot, a sustain buff skill, a shield, an execute, and elemental blockade. WIth that in mind, playing a warden, nb, sorc or templar isn't that different compared to each other compared to old days. You may consider just playing both, and on longer terms maybe even all of them.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

jypcy wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Just keep in mind that, should you choose to go with the ele weapon spammable, that’s dependent on la weaving. Maybe I’m overblowing how big an issue high ping is, but if you have trouble weaving then you might have to use something like crushing shock or make a ha build instead, which like said I think magden is more effective at. I have both magden and magplar though and would recommend either.

Joxer61 wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Just keep in mind that, should you choose to go with the ele weapon spammable, that’s dependent on la weaving. Maybe I’m overblowing how big an issue high ping is, but if you have trouble weaving then you might have to use something like crushing shock or make a ha build instead, which like said I think magden is more effective at. I have both magden and magplar though and would recommend either.

Yea, lag is a huge deal....many times my bar swaps back to what it was as it reads the keystrokes to late and I have to spam skills sometimes which can lead to running low on resources. Its a tricky thing running with high ping..constant 380-400 really sucks. Dodging is a whole other story...lol...many times to late, thus the need to play ranged.

Just adding to this, force pulse or crushing shock is fine to run as an alternative to ele weapon on either a MagPlar or a MagDen (can also run birds), just slightly less dps and sustain, though running 1x recovery glyph alleviates that with minimal dps loss.

And between force pulse and crushing shock, force pulse will give you higher dps but imo the utility from crushing outweighs the small dps gain from FP.

I keep seeing this, in pve DPS, there is almost no reason to run crushing. I am completely against a dps using crushing over force pulse. I can think of like 2 boss fights where they need to be interuped but that is on the tank to do. You are a dps. If you choose utility over damage, you are not doing your job as far I am concerned. I main a healer and have tanked all but the last 2 dungeons on vet. If I found out my DPS were running crushing over force pulse, I would be unhappy. There is a 6% damage difference between the morphs, not including the aoe damage that you can do with force pulse. That is a huge difference.

Joxer61

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Just keep in mind that, should you choose to go with the ele weapon spammable, that’s dependent on la weaving. Maybe I’m overblowing how big an issue high ping is, but if you have trouble weaving then you might have to use something like crushing shock or make a ha build instead, which like said I think magden is more effective at. I have both magden and magplar though and would recommend either.

Joxer61 wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Just keep in mind that, should you choose to go with the ele weapon spammable, that’s dependent on la weaving. Maybe I’m overblowing how big an issue high ping is, but if you have trouble weaving then you might have to use something like crushing shock or make a ha build instead, which like said I think magden is more effective at. I have both magden and magplar though and would recommend either.

Yea, lag is a huge deal....many times my bar swaps back to what it was as it reads the keystrokes to late and I have to spam skills sometimes which can lead to running low on resources. Its a tricky thing running with high ping..constant 380-400 really sucks. Dodging is a whole other story...lol...many times to late, thus the need to play ranged.

Just adding to this, force pulse or crushing shock is fine to run as an alternative to ele weapon on either a MagPlar or a MagDen (can also run birds), just slightly less dps and sustain, though running 1x recovery glyph alleviates that with minimal dps loss.

And between force pulse and crushing shock, force pulse will give you higher dps but imo the utility from crushing outweighs the small dps gain from FP.

I keep seeing this, in pve DPS, there is almost no reason to run crushing. I am completely against a dps using crushing over force pulse. I can think of like 2 boss fights where they need to be interuped but that is on the tank to do. You are a dps. If you choose utility over damage, you are not doing your job as far I am concerned. I main a healer and have tanked all but the last 2 dungeons on vet. If I found out my DPS were running crushing over force pulse, I would be unhappy. There is a 6% damage difference between the morphs, not including the aoe damage that you can do with force pulse. That is a huge difference.

I have often wondered that about the crushing choice and actually use force...so good to hear its that decent! Am sticking with the magplar for now as am keen to see how things play out once live...be fun to "play" one of the top dps if not "be" one of the top dps...lol!!!

Tinus_92

Joxer61 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Just keep in mind that, should you choose to go with the ele weapon spammable, that’s dependent on la weaving. Maybe I’m overblowing how big an issue high ping is, but if you have trouble weaving then you might have to use something like crushing shock or make a ha build instead, which like said I think magden is more effective at. I have both magden and magplar though and would recommend either.

Joxer61 wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Just keep in mind that, should you choose to go with the ele weapon spammable, that’s dependent on la weaving. Maybe I’m overblowing how big an issue high ping is, but if you have trouble weaving then you might have to use something like crushing shock or make a ha build instead, which like said I think magden is more effective at. I have both magden and magplar though and would recommend either.

Yea, lag is a huge deal....many times my bar swaps back to what it was as it reads the keystrokes to late and I have to spam skills sometimes which can lead to running low on resources. Its a tricky thing running with high ping..constant 380-400 really sucks. Dodging is a whole other story...lol...many times to late, thus the need to play ranged.

Just adding to this, force pulse or crushing shock is fine to run as an alternative to ele weapon on either a MagPlar or a MagDen (can also run birds), just slightly less dps and sustain, though running 1x recovery glyph alleviates that with minimal dps loss.

And between force pulse and crushing shock, force pulse will give you higher dps but imo the utility from crushing outweighs the small dps gain from FP.

I keep seeing this, in pve DPS, there is almost no reason to run crushing. I am completely against a dps using crushing over force pulse. I can think of like 2 boss fights where they need to be interuped but that is on the tank to do. You are a dps. If you choose utility over damage, you are not doing your job as far I am concerned. I main a healer and have tanked all but the last 2 dungeons on vet. If I found out my DPS were running crushing over force pulse, I would be unhappy. There is a 6% damage difference between the morphs, not including the aoe damage that you can do with force pulse. That is a huge difference.

I have often wondered that about the crushing choice and actually use force...so good to hear its that decent! Am sticking with the magplar for now as am keen to see how things play out once live...be fun to "play" one of the top dps if not "be" one of the top dps...lol!!!

Would recommend getting elemental drain as main spammable, this will give better results. Then take crushing shock for those specific fights you'll need the interruption. With the vHRC instant boss split it's definitely no luxury. Also vHOF requires some interrupters. Whoever tells DPS is all that matters, following mechanics and play more safely is even more important then taking all those risks for that 1500 extra dps. A dead player doesn't provide any dps at all.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Tinus_92 wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Just keep in mind that, should you choose to go with the ele weapon spammable, that’s dependent on la weaving. Maybe I’m overblowing how big an issue high ping is, but if you have trouble weaving then you might have to use something like crushing shock or make a ha build instead, which like said I think magden is more effective at. I have both magden and magplar though and would recommend either.

Joxer61 wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Just keep in mind that, should you choose to go with the ele weapon spammable, that’s dependent on la weaving. Maybe I’m overblowing how big an issue high ping is, but if you have trouble weaving then you might have to use something like crushing shock or make a ha build instead, which like said I think magden is more effective at. I have both magden and magplar though and would recommend either.

Yea, lag is a huge deal....many times my bar swaps back to what it was as it reads the keystrokes to late and I have to spam skills sometimes which can lead to running low on resources. Its a tricky thing running with high ping..constant 380-400 really sucks. Dodging is a whole other story...lol...many times to late, thus the need to play ranged.

Just adding to this, force pulse or crushing shock is fine to run as an alternative to ele weapon on either a MagPlar or a MagDen (can also run birds), just slightly less dps and sustain, though running 1x recovery glyph alleviates that with minimal dps loss.

And between force pulse and crushing shock, force pulse will give you higher dps but imo the utility from crushing outweighs the small dps gain from FP.

I keep seeing this, in pve DPS, there is almost no reason to run crushing. I am completely against a dps using crushing over force pulse. I can think of like 2 boss fights where they need to be interuped but that is on the tank to do. You are a dps. If you choose utility over damage, you are not doing your job as far I am concerned. I main a healer and have tanked all but the last 2 dungeons on vet. If I found out my DPS were running crushing over force pulse, I would be unhappy. There is a 6% damage difference between the morphs, not including the aoe damage that you can do with force pulse. That is a huge difference.

I have often wondered that about the crushing choice and actually use force...so good to hear its that decent! Am sticking with the magplar for now as am keen to see how things play out once live...be fun to "play" one of the top dps if not "be" one of the top dps...lol!!!

Would recommend getting elemental drain as main spammable, this will give better results. Then take crushing shock for those specific fights you'll need the interruption. With the vHRC instant boss split it's definitely no luxury. Also vHOF requires some interrupters. Whoever tells DPS is all that matters, following mechanics and play more safely is even more important then taking all those risks for that 1500 extra dps. A dead player doesn't provide any dps at all.

You mean elemental weapon. Not drain. The op is not going to be running vHOF anytime soon. Like I said, there are so few times that a dps NEEDS to be interrupting that it really does not make sense to have that morph, unless you are running those specifically.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I feel like each patch is going to have me grind the psijic line on a new toon. This patch, my magplar is up. Haha

OP, I think everything you are saying points to magplar as your best option. You wont perceive the DPS difference illustrated by Liko. Keep in mind that is essentially a flawless dynamic rotation that few could replicate. Magplar can be player much simpler than that if needed, and will still put out plenty of damage.