Concern on spell strategist impact on PvE

Onefrkncrzypope

I understand that it is single Target but regardless of the fight this really pushes the power creep really far. As I don't have pts, I will just use Liko as a good test. He posts pretty straight forward and controlled dps parse of multiple mag toons and comparing to his wolfhunter build they all went up and passed their Stam counterparts. Yes this is single Target but so is Stam. Stam is also super carried by a proc set that is much less reliable than siroria.
I'm concerned that this makes for another elder staves online.

Because it's only single target, does that really justify a perfect uptime with literally the easiest proc condition ever? No cooldown, perfect traits and will be extremely available. I don't see this set being healthy for PvE.


Spell Strategist (Light)
2: Max Magicka
3: Spell Damage
4: Spell Damage
5: When you deal damage with a Light Attack, you place a mark over your target for 5 seconds, granting you 500 Spell Damage against your marked target. This effect can occur every 4 seconds.

ezio45

dude, who cares?

if you dont want to power creep dont use it? plenty of other good sets to run instead. just as great.... Personally I want to try it

its pve why do players care if they kill things to fast. and im not saying the saying the set does, i havent tested it. But personally i really want to try this instead of juli

royo

If you read the description of his parses on youtube will see the following statement: "The DPS of this class should only be compared to other Magicka classes in my recent videos - and NOT the Stamina classes." The buffs are not the same. Stamblades and stamwardens will easily top mag in-raid.

Onefrkncrzypope

royo wrote: »

If you read the description of his parses on youtube will see the following statement: "The DPS of this class should only be compared to other Magicka classes in my recent videos - and NOT the Stamina classes." The buffs are not the same. Stamblades and stamwardens will easily top mag in-raid.

It's hard to see about the Stam scaling with the buff to brutality but it's still concerning none the less but honestly maybe if the sheild this is as big deal as the forums are making it then maybe the roles will switch Stam is more survivable and mag hits harder lol.

ezio45 wrote: »

dude, who cares?

if you dont want to power creep dont use it? plenty of other good sets to run instead. just as great.... Personally I want to try it

its pve why do players care if they kill things to fast. and im not saying the saying the set does, i havent tested it. But personally i really want to try this instead of juli

Power creep is a major concern in all MMORPGs that want to have a healthy lifespan. Like look it up. Yeah I could not wear but the creep is there

royo

Do you see minor vuln on the stam parses? The buffs aren't the same. He actually says not to compare them.

Onefrkncrzypope

royo wrote: »

Do you see minor vuln on the stam parses?

Can't see over rele. Color blind

ezio45

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

royo wrote: »

Do you see minor vuln on the stam parses?

Can't see over rele. Color blind

my apologies, i didnt read this fully, nah stam is fine... why dont need dps they can survive next patch.... thats good enough

#IWantMeSomeElderStavesOnline

firedrgn

Lots of sets buff 500 + mightbbe fun with monster set. If just light attacking

Onefrkncrzypope

firedrgn wrote: »

Lots of sets buff 500 + mightbbe fun with monster set. If just light attacking

Just the 100% uptime is the issue. Scathing has a low proc chance, bsw has a cooldown and also averages just over juli. I just remember the distinct convos the devs gave us about the nerfs and competition and blah blah and then they makes this set. Lower the uptime, dont delete into Oblivion just 6/10 uptime like everything else makes sense

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

firedrgn wrote: »

Lots of sets buff 500 + mightbbe fun with monster set. If just light attacking

Just the 100% uptime is the issue. Scathing has a low proc chance, bsw has a cooldown and also averages just over juli. I just remember the distinct convos the devs gave us about the nerfs and competition and blah blah and then they makes this set. Lower the uptime, dont delete into Oblivion just 6/10 uptime like everything else makes sense

all those sets you mention also buff you overall spell damage, so heals/aoe damage are also impacted. this set is single target only and damage only. big difference.

Masel

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

firedrgn wrote: »

Lots of sets buff 500 + mightbbe fun with monster set. If just light attacking

Just the 100% uptime is the issue. Scathing has a low proc chance, bsw has a cooldown and also averages just over juli. I just remember the distinct convos the devs gave us about the nerfs and competition and blah blah and then they makes this set. Lower the uptime, dont delete into Oblivion just 6/10 uptime like everything else makes sense

all those sets you mention also buff you overall spell damage, so heals/aoe damage are also impacted. this set is single target only and damage only. big difference.

Still, players are known for using whatever yields the highest dummy parse. This set is stronger than an arena weapon counterpart on stamina builds for that matter (master bow) and required less effort to keep up and can also be one-barred.

I'm no fan of relequen, siroria and this one per se because they are outperforming the rest by miles. Especially relequen, I want my chars to do the damage, not a damn proc set that on top of the damage procs direct damage sets even though it is a dot.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Masel92 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

firedrgn wrote: »

Lots of sets buff 500 + mightbbe fun with monster set. If just light attacking

Just the 100% uptime is the issue. Scathing has a low proc chance, bsw has a cooldown and also averages just over juli. I just remember the distinct convos the devs gave us about the nerfs and competition and blah blah and then they makes this set. Lower the uptime, dont delete into Oblivion just 6/10 uptime like everything else makes sense

all those sets you mention also buff you overall spell damage, so heals/aoe damage are also impacted. this set is single target only and damage only. big difference.

Still, players are known for using whatever yields the highest dummy parse. This set is stronger than an arena weapon counterpart on stamina builds for that matter (master bow) and required less effort to keep up and can also be one-barred.

I'm no fan of relequen, siroria and this one per se because they are outperforming the rest by miles. Especially relequen, I want my chars to do the damage, not a damn proc set that on top of the damage procs direct damage sets even though it is a dot.

That they are but I see this as a way that zos is trying to incentivize the use of healers. As the spell damage will not buff your heals. While making it worth using as a dps.

Derra

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

firedrgn wrote: »

Lots of sets buff 500 + mightbbe fun with monster set. If just light attacking

Just the 100% uptime is the issue. Scathing has a low proc chance, bsw has a cooldown and also averages just over juli. I just remember the distinct convos the devs gave us about the nerfs and competition and blah blah and then they makes this set. Lower the uptime, dont delete into Oblivion just 6/10 uptime like everything else makes sense

It´s a pvp set that in return to having 100% uptime does not buff any defensive spells and is pure singletarget. Which is what balances it out for the content it was designed for.

ankeor

It's a single target dps set. Good luck using it in a boss fight with multiple adds/mini bosses. Even if you can change the marked target you will always lack aoe damage with spell strategist.

John_Falstaff

It is a single target DPS set, but I don't see it any less imbalanced for it. Thing is, a lot of boss fights are single target (or practically single target from DPS standpoint), and now magicka has a set to swap in before those fights - it's very easy given one of gear management addons. So, stamina will stay as-is, and magicka will stay as-is on multiple target fights, but will pull far ahead on single target fights. I'm not at all sure it's a healthy situation.

Turelus

ezio45 wrote: »

dude, who cares?

if you dont want to power creep dont use it? plenty of other good sets to run instead. just as great.... Personally I want to try it

its pve why do players care if they kill things to fast. and im not saying the saying the set does, i havent tested it. But personally i really want to try this instead of juli

Apart from the issues with power creep is Devs then have to up the monsters to compensate (or nerf the sets later on [so why not now?]) meaning you HAVE to keep up with the creep at some point.

Septimus_Magna

ankeor wrote: »

It's a single target dps set. Good luck using it in a boss fight with multiple adds/mini bosses. Even if you can change the marked target you will always lack aoe damage with spell strategist.

This is why the set will probably make it to live like this. Other sets like Mother Sorrow or BSW dont have limited dmg buff to just one target so there is a trade off.

The 4 second cooldown means that if you focus an add it takes 2 seconds on average before the spell dmg buff kicks in. Usually you dont have to AOE down many adds so I think the trade off compared to current sets is worth it.

John_Falstaff

@Septimus_Magna , mm-m, I don't know. Personally, I think that, if this set will go out live, I will (on my situationally used magblade) just swap gear for Spell Strategist before every single target fight using AlphaGear. No tradeoff involved - the set will have just made me stronger in quite a lot of situations, without any drawbacks for carrying it around.

Onefrkncrzypope

Picturing the use of this set even with out addons it still sits pretty high on a pedestal.

vhrc Hel ra just burn through to shehai and adds are gone. gargoyles are most likely going to be pulled by OT

vAA again burn single target

vSO again single target

vMol focusing on add priority is a pretty common practice and twins higher the single target the less adds anyway, what is the common right now? maybe a two add phase? Honestly, there are groups that 3 pad HM Rakkaht so no need for even worrying about hulk.

vHOF maybe final boss? most fight are either single burn or add priotizing. heck most fights would be easier with this set.

vAS +2 probably got some debate there but really uptime would burn main boss quickly and then focus mini before enrage still would work great with this set

vCR +3 I hate mini trials so not much research into this one but same applies as vAS. burn boss, trigger mini, kill mini, burn boss.

yes in every encounter with this set the cleave would be 500 spell power weaker but I mean has cleave ever been the number one issue with trials clears?

Onefrkncrzypope

Derra wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

firedrgn wrote: »

Lots of sets buff 500 + mightbbe fun with monster set. If just light attacking

Just the 100% uptime is the issue. Scathing has a low proc chance, bsw has a cooldown and also averages just over juli. I just remember the distinct convos the devs gave us about the nerfs and competition and blah blah and then they makes this set. Lower the uptime, dont delete into Oblivion just 6/10 uptime like everything else makes sense

It´s a pvp set that in return to having 100% uptime does not buff any defensive spells and is pure singletarget. Which is what balances it out for the content it was designed for.

I meant the use of this set in PvE where your heals and mitigation has been taken care of for you and the incoming damage is rather predictable. PvP its balancy???

BigBadVolk

I like OP stuff, bring more OP stuff, and tbh even without this set, people at higher level can burn stuff and people who just casually raid or not on the level of Hodor or MC will still wont get a 3rd pad burn in vmol with this set, but the balance part is the same as with infused weps, its pure single target even if its stronger then a BSW or MS (rip MS staff prices???)

Apherius

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Septimus_Magna , mm-m, I don't know. Personally, I think that, if this set will go out live, I will (on my situationally used magblade) just swap gear for Spell Strategist before every single target fight using AlphaGear. No tradeoff involved - the set will have just made me stronger in quite a lot of situations, without any drawbacks for carrying it around.

Hum, you will probably lose 5 inventory slot, it's the major drawback I see.

Izaki

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

I understand that it is single Target but regardless of the fight this really pushes the power creep really far. As I don't have pts, I will just use Liko as a good test. He posts pretty straight forward and controlled dps parse of multiple mag toons and comparing to his wolfhunter build they all went up and passed their Stam counterparts. Yes this is single Target but so is Stam. Stam is also super carried by a proc set that is much less reliable than siroria.
I'm concerned that this makes for another elder staves online.

Because it's only single target, does that really justify a perfect uptime with literally the easiest proc condition ever? No cooldown, perfect traits and will be extremely available. I don't see this set being healthy for PvE.


Spell Strategist (Light)
2: Max Magicka
3: Spell Damage
4: Spell Damage
5: When you deal damage with a Light Attack, you place a mark over your target for 5 seconds, granting you 500 Spell Damage against your marked target. This effect can occur every 4 seconds.

I take it you didn't read Liko's description.
He explicitly says that the magicka tests aren't meant to be compared to the stamina tests. Why? Well because in all his magicka builds, he has Off Balance and Minor Vulnerability on top of the Minor Berserk and Orbs. So yeah of course magicka builds will be pulling higher DPS in an environment like that: they have about 9% more damage done (when taking into account all the other % boni)! Stamina builds are still pulling more DPS in single target.

Why does Liko include these extra buffs on magicka builds? Because magicka classes deal elemental damage and all classes will have some Minor Vulnerability due to Imbue Weapon. Some classes will have more however (AKA Sorc). So in order to normalize that, he had to include all those buffs in his testing.

TL;DR: Liko's magicka DPS tests have raid buffs and are only meant to be compared between each other, not between the stamina counter parts. Stamina builds still do more deeps.

(Please don't forget to edit your OP and specify this, because I get your concern, I really do, but you're just taking the wrong example and you could be misleading people )

Xvorg

I think it's even worst than Galerion's, despite it can reach~750 spell dmg against one enemy.

Apherius

Xvorg wrote: »

I think it's even worst than Galerion's, despite it can reach~750 spell dmg against one enemy.

Galerion's Revenge

(1 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(3 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(4 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(5 items) When you deal damage with a Light or Heavy Attack, you put a Mark of Revenge on the enemy for 15 seconds. After stacking 6 Marks of Revenge on an enemy they detonate for 4730 Magic Damage.

Galerion's set you say ? 750 sp ?

Izaki

.

Xvorg

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

firedrgn wrote: »

Lots of sets buff 500 + mightbbe fun with monster set. If just light attacking

Just the 100% uptime is the issue. Scathing has a low proc chance, bsw has a cooldown and also averages just over juli. I just remember the distinct convos the devs gave us about the nerfs and competition and blah blah and then they makes this set. Lower the uptime, dont delete into Oblivion just 6/10 uptime like everything else makes sense

It´s a pvp set that in return to having 100% uptime does not buff any defensive spells and is pure singletarget. Which is what balances it out for the content it was designed for.

I meant the use of this set in PvE where your heals and mitigation has been taken care of for you and the incoming damage is rather predictable. PvP its balancy???

Problem with spell dmg is that after certain point, there are diminishing returns. Yes, you can get a high spell dmg number but it won't translate into much more dmg.

That's why until certain point, magicka based build look for extra magicka (or penetration in PvP).

This set looks good up to the 4th stat, the 5th one is just meh, similar to WMK, but that one not only increases your spell dmg, but also your procs.

Onefrkncrzypope

Izaki wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

I understand that it is single Target but regardless of the fight this really pushes the power creep really far. As I don't have pts, I will just use Liko as a good test. He posts pretty straight forward and controlled dps parse of multiple mag toons and comparing to his wolfhunter build they all went up and passed their Stam counterparts. Yes this is single Target but so is Stam. Stam is also super carried by a proc set that is much less reliable than siroria.
I'm concerned that this makes for another elder staves online.

Because it's only single target, does that really justify a perfect uptime with literally the easiest proc condition ever? No cooldown, perfect traits and will be extremely available. I don't see this set being healthy for PvE.


Spell Strategist (Light)
2: Max Magicka
3: Spell Damage
4: Spell Damage
5: When you deal damage with a Light Attack, you place a mark over your target for 5 seconds, granting you 500 Spell Damage against your marked target. This effect can occur every 4 seconds.

I take it you didn't read Liko's description.
He explicitly says that the magicka tests aren't meant to be compared to the stamina tests. Why? Well because in all his magicka builds, he has Off Balance and Minor Vulnerability on top of the Minor Berserk and Orbs. So yeah of course magicka builds will be pulling higher DPS in an environment like that: they have about 9% more damage done (when taking into account all the other % boni)! Stamina builds are still pulling more DPS in single target.

Why does Liko include these extra buffs on magicka builds? Because magicka classes deal elemental damage and all classes will have some Minor Vulnerability due to Imbue Weapon. Some classes will have more however (AKA Sorc). So in order to normalize that, he had to include all those buffs in his testing.

TL;DR: Liko's magicka DPS tests have raid buffs and are only meant to be compared between each other, not between the stamina counter parts. Stamina builds still do more deeps.

(Please don't forget to edit your OP and specify this, because I get your concern, I really do, but you're just taking the wrong example and you could be misleading people )

If you read the earlier conversation after my initial post I was already made aware of this and was aware when writing the post. The only buff that is missing from the two tests is maybe minor vunerability. I can't see if i.a is procing with stam because I am colorblind. both mag and stam are missing buff like prohecy/brutality if not available in class rotation and all the pen help and warhorn.

off balance would help stam but its a low uptime and with dimishing returns IDK if vulnerability would be strong enough to argue keeping stam. if the gap is too small why bring stam? and the blade comarision is not the only thing I'm concerned about.

eso_nya

The set is an attempt to lure pvers into cyrodiil and battlegrounds to serve as feeders.

Willl get nerved within 3 month.

Tonturri

Considering that one of the strengths of magicka DPS is cleave and the 500 spell dmg only applies to one target, I think it'll be fine in PvE. In PvP duels however...but eh, not like those are balanced around anyway. Maybe they could increase the dmg boost but give it some downtime.

REiiGN15

I've spent so much time and/or gold to get certain staves so yea, if it wants to turn into elderstavesonline then I'm down