The Nerf to Speed Pots is a horrible idea; Here's why.

Emma_Overload

Maryal wrote: »

It is so weird to see people refer to speed pots as 'stamina speed pots' when they can (and often are) made with no restorative benefit to stamina whatsoever.

This is one of the useful potions that has no Magicka equivalent:

zParallaxz

You guys got to keep in mind, spin to win speed demons are meta right now and Zos likes changing the meta. So that’s another main reason why scrupulous speed is being nerfed.

zParallaxz

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Yep, Stamina builds should have 45 seconds of Major Expedition while Magicka builds get 4 seconds... That sounds fair! 🙄

If my stam chars can run speed + lingering health pots (see, no stam effect here), so can your mag builds

Did u also factor in forward momentum?

Zaryc

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Yep, Stamina builds should have 45 seconds of Major Expedition while Magicka builds get 4 seconds... That sounds fair! 🙄

If my stam chars can run speed + lingering health pots (see, no stam effect here), so can your mag builds

I've done it. Giving up Major Intellect is too high a price to pay for Mag Sorcs... our sustain is already so dodgy.

This. Stam can easily sustain with heavy attacks, mag especially mag sorcs need lots of recovery to stay alive.

Ocelot9x

You forgot that speed and los is crucial for stamina survival cause -except op stamwarden- we have no burst heals (rally every 12 sec at minimum). So without a reliable expedition you can’t los and without los you can’t heal. Plus the nerf to roll dodge and the new set that negate healing = goodbye stamina 1/2/3vX. Every spec have different tools,you can’t just take away everything from a play style just because the whiney majority of players refuse to l2p

zParallaxz

I think this is the first person I see trying to defend spin to win stam warden........ You realize forward momentum is infinitely better than rally on stam warden.

Joy_Division

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Yep, Stamina builds should have 45 seconds of Major Expedition while Magicka builds get 4 seconds... That sounds fair! 🙄

If my stam chars can run speed + lingering health pots (see, no stam effect here), so can your mag builds

They can, but it wouldnt be as effective. Med armor + high resource for sprint and dodge means stamina characters are going to be naturally faster than mag, so a stam with a speed pot is going to actually be able to outrun danger and escape more than a mag build with speed.

Also Stamina generally has more incoming sustain heals which Lingering fits with perfectly whereas magicka defense tends to be bursty with stuff like BoL and shields (or at least pre this patch), which makes Lingering not especially useful

Rianai

Speed + Lingering Health works very well on magblade and i don't see why they wouldn't be useful on other mag classes (maybe except from shield stacking magsorcs - but that might change). Ofc i still won't outrun stam builds, but any improvement to mobility is helpful when outnumbered. This applies to all kinds of builds, so the mobility nerfs are mostly a nerf to solo and small scale play and nothing class or stam/mag specific.

templesus

Rianai wrote: »

Speed + Lingering Health works very well on magblade and i don't see why they wouldn't be useful on other mag classes (maybe except from shield stacking magsorcs - but that might change). Ofc i still won't outrun stam builds, but any improvement to mobility is helpful when outnumbered. This applies to all kinds of builds, so the mobility nerfs are mostly a nerf to solo and small scale play and nothing class or stam/mag specific.

Because in general Magicka classes have a harder time sustaining due to their abilities costing more across the board. That is why in the OP I suggested to simply add in Magicka Speed potions for balance.

Bhelen

Can we just balance the problem by giving magicka more speed and snare removal options? So they can outrun the zergs too. Momentum was the only solution to the problem that is snare spam. So give people more snare removal options instead of taking away the only way to survive in open world.

Bhelen

I would also like to point out that there is nothing to stop a mag toon from back-baring two-hand for forward momemtum. Its pretty cheap to manage.

Ariades_swe

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HankTwo

Sorry Russell, but I have to disagree with some points.

Crixus8000 wrote: »

If it's a duration nerf ( and it's probably going to be) then it's just pointless to run speed pots because the second that speed falls off your useless.

This right here shows how much of a crutch speed pots really are, and I don’t mean that as an insult, since I use them myself.

Crixus8000 wrote: »

I tried running without speed pots and it was just terrible. I couldn't escape anything and couldn't hardly land any dizzy swings.

It’s hard to land dizzying swing because people are so fast. I have no problem using the skill against mag players even if I don’t have a speed pot up. Against stam sorcs or wardens, though? A huge pain.

Crixus8000 wrote: »

As a solo player I hate this so much. When doing 1vx without speed you just die, stand your ground isn't a thing with the amount of damage in pvp right now with things like bleeds and proc sets.

I can agree with this, proc set and bleed damage can be ridiculous in no CP, and it’s also a form of a crutch.

So, my take on this is the following:
Speed pots - or in other words 30% extra speed with 100% uptime - are a problem, because you basically can’t fight people who use them as a melee character unless you use them yourself. This is untrue for any other potion effect.
Forward momentum was problematic as well. Aside from bugs and lag the skill can indeed give 100% uptime for a manageable resource cost, which enables uncounterable LOS breaking.
I get the whole buff to zergs, nerf to solo argument. However, using the above enables me for example to survive 3 decent (but uncoordinated) players, that would each give me a good fight on their own in an open field. I don’t think this should be the case.

So, what I like to happen is:
- Keep the forward momentum nerf.
- Reduce speed pots to 25-30 seconds, they should be an escape mechanic or allow you to fight a bigger group for some time, but they shouldn’t enable you to fight them indefinitely unless you use defensive ults to survive the downtime.
- Remove the nerfs to expedition skills. These are not the problem here.
- Reduce the strength of snares (60% --> 40%; 30% --> 20%) and reduce the amount of skills that apply them.
- Make proc sets scale from your stats, so that they become weak if you don’t build for damage. This would reduce the damage or tankiness of unskilled players by a good amount (I don’t think this will happen, but I would like to see it nevertheless).

I know that this is the unpopular opinion, but imo offense should be stronger than defense. In case of LOS breaking this is far from being true.

IAVITNI

Rianai wrote: »

Speed + Lingering Health works very well on magblade and i don't see why they wouldn't be useful on other mag classes (maybe except from shield stacking magsorcs - but that might change). Ofc i still won't outrun stam builds, but any improvement to mobility is helpful when outnumbered. This applies to all kinds of builds, so the mobility nerfs are mostly a nerf to solo and small scale play and nothing class or stam/mag specific.

Because solo players are soooo overpowered...1 player running away from 5+ is OP and unfair...

I was able to cope with the shield cast times partially because while it was a horrid decision the purpose behind it was sound and the problem was being addressed directly and exclusively, albeit in a horrible way. But for some reason this movement speed nerf just kills the game for me. Couldn't even log on yesterday, despite it being one of the days I actually have time to play. The fact that they nerf mag mobility when stam mobility is overperforming is astounding.

Solo on stam was largely only viable because of Major Expedition pots. It now goes from viable to niche on pretty much any build that doesn't back bar bow. This will push solo players to nightblade and sorc for their innate mobility. Skilled players will keep glocking potatoes (and only potatoes in the case of magsorcs) on these classes and forums will cry for further nerfs.

Perception becomes skewed because only 2 classes are really viable for open world potato farming, so while the classes are all within reasonable performance levels, potatoes will only see the farmers on 2 of 5 classes.

Mobility was the alternative to tank-builds. Up-coming speed pot changes are likely to change that. So it's pretty much nb or bust for solo at this point.

Why do people complain about speed pots anyways? Because it stacks with Swift? If you have a single strand of hair longer than the others, you cut that single strand. You don't shave off your whole head.

Revokus

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Andferne wrote: »

The duration of speed pots needs to be reduced and should have been long ago.

If the duration is nerfed then they are useless. moving like a snail for half the fight won't work. The second that speed falls off your basically dead because you can't use los to escape the endless proc sets, snipe spam and everything else the large group of players is throwing at you.

Good maybe that will be more balanced ? why would stamina be gods while magsorc has been gutted ? I’m all for 1vx but clearly they don’t want us to do that and been trying to get rid of 1vX every patch..even Fengrush plays in zergs now..I’m considering just playing bg’s or some form of no cp at least there is more build diversity there.

Maryal

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

It is so weird to see people refer to speed pots as 'stamina speed pots' when they can (and often are) made with no restorative benefit to stamina whatsoever.

This is one of the useful potions that has no Magicka equivalent:

LOL! I've only used speed + invisibility pots (because you break invisibility if you press the sprint button while invis.) After seeing that pic, I agree that there should be a magica equivalent 'speed pot.' (thank you for the info btw)

Maryal

Speed potions help counter lag and snares.

They also are helpful when it comes to dealing with these 'insta-kill' builds that try to disable you with the first blow and finish you off with a second blow. Having a speed buff gives you maneuverability ... it gives you the ability to move around and engage in some actual pvp counter-play -- you're not limited to 'just' being on the defense .. you can weave in a little offense too.

Speed pots help with scroll running, as well as accompanying the scroll runner on foot (not a good idea to rely on spamming retreating maneuvers -- eats up stam too fast)

Speed pots helps in pve -- especially when fighting a boss that likes to make most of the ground red with a variety of AoEs that go off in different directions. These fights tend to get a little laggy, and using a speed pot helps you to be maneuverable.

Speed pots are wonderful when farming.

Not everyone wants to use Retreating Maneuvers -- you loose too much control of your toon (you end up overshooting things like being able to stop where you want, or target things like nodes when farming).

Not everyone can use Retreating Maneuvers -- the visual effects from that skill (wavy ribbons) are visually irritating and often trigger a migraine if I look at them too long ... because of that I seldom use the skill.

There is a reason why people preferred speed pots over using skills/abilities for a speed buff -- skills/abilities eat up resources way too fast. Sustain is difficult and many of us got another round of sustain nerfs (increased skill/ability costs). Adding all these major expedition nerfs on top of every thing else only further hurts our ability to sustain ... this is not helpful ... not in pvp nor in pve.

Twohothardware

Speed pot duration has needed nerfed for a long time. There's no reason for why you should get permanent uptime on Major Expedition. There's no cooldown as you can use another speed potion before the buff runs out. That makes no sense from a balance persepective because Major Expedition gives more of an advantage than any other buff from potions in Cyrodiil outside of Immovability and it's only the small percent of the player base that can afford to run expensive to craft pots on cooldown the entire time in pvp.

Maryal

Twohothardware wrote: »

Speed pot duration has needed nerfed for a long time. There's no reason for why you should get permanent uptime on Major Expedition. There's no cooldown as you can use another speed potion before the buff runs out. That makes no sense from a balance persepective because Major Expedition gives more of an advantage than any other buff from potions in Cyrodiil outside of Immovability and it's only the small percent of the player base that can afford to run expensive to craft pots on cooldown the entire time in pvp.

all potions are on a potion timer... you can't use another potion until the potion timer is up.

major expedition will still be attainable in pvp -- even at or near 100% uptime (without speed pots). Builds will have to be configured differently, but it's still entirely possible. Nerfing speed pots will ultimately make these builds stronger. Using speed pots helped to counter these types of builds (matching their speed/maneuverability in order to fight them). Sure, we still have skills/abilities that grant major expedition, but the speed duration just got nerfed and spamming those skills/abilities will wipe out your resources. If speed pots get nerfed, you will have to wait for the potion timer to cool down before you can use another one, which will significantly reduce their effectiveness in helping to counter to a 'speed-stacking build'.

BTW- farming the ingredients to craft speed pots makes them free.

Crixus8000

HankTwo wrote: »

Sorry Russell, but I have to disagree with some points.

Crixus8000 wrote: »

If it's a duration nerf ( and it's probably going to be) then it's just pointless to run speed pots because the second that speed falls off your useless.

This right here shows how much of a crutch speed pots really are, and I don’t mean that as an insult, since I use them myself.

Crixus8000 wrote: »

I tried running without speed pots and it was just terrible. I couldn't escape anything and couldn't hardly land any dizzy swings.

It’s hard to land dizzying swing because people are so fast. I have no problem using the skill against mag players even if I don’t have a speed pot up. Against stam sorcs or wardens, though? A huge pain.

Crixus8000 wrote: »

As a solo player I hate this so much. When doing 1vx without speed you just die, stand your ground isn't a thing with the amount of damage in pvp right now with things like bleeds and proc sets.

I can agree with this, proc set and bleed damage can be ridiculous in no CP, and it’s also a form of a crutch.

So, my take on this is the following:
Speed pots - or in other words 30% extra speed with 100% uptime - are a problem, because you basically can’t fight people who use them as a melee character unless you use them yourself. This is untrue for any other potion effect.
Forward momentum was problematic as well. Aside from bugs and lag the skill can indeed give 100% uptime for a manageable resource cost, which enables uncounterable LOS breaking.
I get the whole buff to zergs, nerf to solo argument. However, using the above enables me for example to survive 3 decent (but uncoordinated) players, that would each give me a good fight on their own in an open field. I don’t think this should be the case.

So, what I like to happen is:
- Keep the forward momentum nerf.
- Reduce speed pots to 25-30 seconds, they should be an escape mechanic or allow you to fight a bigger group for some time, but they shouldn’t enable you to fight them indefinitely unless you use defensive ults to survive the downtime.
- Remove the nerfs to expedition skills. These are not the problem here.
- Reduce the strength of snares (60% --> 40%; 30% --> 20%) and reduce the amount of skills that apply them.
- Make proc sets scale from your stats, so that they become weak if you don’t build for damage. This would reduce the damage or tankiness of unskilled players by a good amount (I don’t think this will happen, but I would like to see it nevertheless).

I know that this is the unpopular opinion, but imo offense should be stronger than defense. In case of LOS breaking this is far from being true.

I agree, and I like the changes you proposed.

My issue is thought that no matter what duration the speed pots have, if they don't give the speed 100% of time time then they can no longer be used for 1vx builds, if that speed falls off, you can't do anything. So that will force 1vx players to find a way of getting major expedition with 100% uptime from somewhere else or change to a much more tankier playstyle, but that just isn't possible. Even if proc sets get a small nerf. I have had zaan hit me 23k, snipe spamming can easily hit 6-10k on my 30k resists, multiple caluuruion/valykn procs, bleeds just melting you down, poisons ignroing immunity ect, all this is overperforming in xv1, and because of this I think the speed pots would be fine how they are currently with fm nerf and swift nerf, I mean I didn't see any complaints before.

Malamar1229

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Yep, Stamina builds should have 45 seconds of Major Expedition while Magicka builds get 4 seconds... That sounds fair! 🙄

You forgot extremely cheap snare removal

Minno

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

It is so weird to see people refer to speed pots as 'stamina speed pots' when they can (and often are) made with no restorative benefit to stamina whatsoever.

This is one of the useful potions that has no Magicka equivalent:

That's not the pot mag needs. It's the stam, speed, major brutality pot that mag needs a version of.

Edit:
That's exactly the pot you linked. YOLO my bad.

templesus

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Ariades_swe

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Wuuffyy

Next thing you know they will nerf the major Regen buffs.

Ocelot9x

12 seconds lol now noobs can get to you without having to l2p

Wuuffyy

Ocelot9x wrote: »

12 seconds lol now noobs can get to you without having to l2p

Exactly! Why don’t you just make snipe go through roll and shields and let’s end this false preconceived notion of skill.

SilverPaws

Great job zenimax, you killed stam dk.. Without mobility dead class.

Starlock

Hmm. This change will be a bit annoying for PvE. Those roguish escape potions will not be very good at helping my rogues escape anymore.

EDIT - maybe we could have something new added to Thieves Guild or Ledgermain to increase our speed when doing stealing or pickpocketing? Because as it stands, this is a change made for PvP that is adversely impacting PvE. Business as usual, I know, but... please?

SergeantPink

None of the above “magicka abilities” gave 43 seconds of major expedition. Shorting the time puts it more in line with speed altogether.