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ZOS: A complete Farce, No skill, Unbalanced

Theignson
Theignson
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jTv3flumy Stam DK is AR36, 31k HP, 3018 Crit resist, 916 CP (lots in mitigation since I Main tank trials).  CM log (posted above) shows I was killed by a stealthed player  in 2.6 seconds and the player only used TWO ABILITIES in Combat!

BEFORE ENTERING COMBAT I was: 1) hit for 10,000 damage (Lethal arrow and Poison injection hit me before combat started) , 2) Major Defiled, 3) Poisoned by Poison injection Dot 4) Poisoned by ravage health/creeping ravage health. 5) Poison status applied by Lethal injection. Before the game even notified me I was in combat!

As soon as the music started, at 0.4 seconds, I was 1) hit with Incapacitating strike for 7082, 2) other players damage increased 3) Twin Blade and Blunt applied to me

OK, so before I can do anything I have taken 17,000 damage and had FIVE dots applied.

I dismounted and dodge rolled.

The player hit ONE ability: steel tornado for 4500 AND this procced Befouled weapon.

Since I was below 50%, The Poison injection DOT hit for more than the initial ability (3357); befouled weapon hit for 2257, Twin blade and bleed hit for 2807, Poisoned for 485, ravage health for 888, Creeping ravage for 427, and I was dead right after my dodge roll finished.

A few other points:
1) despite 3018 crit resist, 95.3% of damage taken was critical damage. Wtf??
2) 10/13 hits in 2.6 seconds were critical
3) ALL THE PROCS procced, 100%, This is statistically vanishingly improbable. Blunt and bleed: 8% chance; befouled weapon 20% , poison on weapon 20%: the odds of all 3 being applied at once on the first use of the ability = (0.2)(0.2) (0.08) == Three in One thousand.

Summary: this no skill build (use two abilities in combat and let 6 procs kill the player) combined with ridiculous lag/ game mechanics (10k damage and 4 dots applied before combat even starts) is ridiculously over powered and completely unfair game play. Granted when you play solo you are going to have to deal with other solo players, but with these builds the fight is over before it starts. Most times, granted, gankers dont kill me. But if they can apply all their arrow hits before the fight and then hit you with Incapacitating right away, it is usually over immediately.

Some people argue it is balanced because these lone gankers are useless in groups and can only gank, since they are glass cannons., and that the glass cannon build evens the fight. But, their cloak is all powerful when it is 1:1. Sometimes 10 people can't find a cloaking NB right in front of them--- 1:1 it is hopeless to try.

ZOS quit worrying about Mage shields and other trivia and do something about poison stacking / lethal arrow garbage.




  • Theignson
    Theignson
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    https://i.imgur.com/jTv3flu.jpg

    Sorry here is the combat log.

  • Theignson
    Theignson
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    I have 35 skill points in Resistant that I don't swap out when I tank in PVE. This makes me slightly weaker in PVE but I am not doing the top content on Vet Hard mode so I don't think it hurts me much. Obviously I switch gear for PVE to sturdy; in PVP I have all impen so total crit resist = 3018. I mentioned PVE CPs becuase I have a lot in Ironclad (66 points) Hardy, Elemental defender, thick skinned-- so imagine what the unmitigated damage is here.

    95% of damage was critical: after the crit resist mitigation

    Look again at combat log: Lethal arrow and Poison injection hit before combat started.

    No light attacks/heavy attacks at all.

    So only 2 abilities were used in combat, no exaggerations.
  • CatchMeTrolling
    CatchMeTrolling
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    technohic wrote: »
    Lethal arrow
    Poison injection
    Incapacitate
    Steel tornado


    Looks like more than 2 abilities, some light attacks, and incredible luck.

    And why mention your PVE tanking in the same breath of having over 3k+ crit resist? Something has to change in your buildout between tanking PVE and getting all that crit resist which is useless in PVE. Leaves some holes in the story.

    I get it though. There are some crazy gank builds and you didn't even get into bleeds that will *** your tanky build even worse. But exhageration and gaps in the story don't really help bring light to the issues.

    They said two abilities used in combat but before that you’ll see he says he got hit with two skills before entering combat. By his wording you can assume he’s not counting the two before the combat music starts playing.
    Ebonheart Pact: Templar - Overlord - Knight Paladin Tiberium Aka The Golden Saint

  • codestripper
    codestripper
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    Yep, I'll stick to PvE
    Since everyone seems to be doing this,
    DPS Builds:
    - Magicka Sorcerer (Pet) [Flawless Conqueror @ 565CP] - 582k
    - Magicka Nightblade [Flawless Conqueror @ 780CP] - 575k
    - Stamina Sorcerer [Flawless Conqueror @ 420CP] - 560k
    - Magicka Classless [Flawless Conqueror @ 810CP] - 540k
    - Magicka Templar [Stormproof] - 550k
    - Magicka Warden [Stormproof] - 510k
    - Stamina Templar [In Development]
    - Stamina DK [In Development]
    - Stamina NB [Under 50]
  • susmitds
    susmitds
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    It is much better now. I main a gankblade for 3 years now and it still takes me over 10 secs to kill tanky targets alone. Back in the 1T days, my melee bow NB used to oneshot 30k+ targets.
  • technohic
    technohic
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    technohic wrote: »
    Lethal arrow
    Poison injection
    Incapacitate
    Steel tornado


    Looks like more than 2 abilities, some light attacks, and incredible luck.

    And why mention your PVE tanking in the same breath of having over 3k+ crit resist? Something has to change in your buildout between tanking PVE and getting all that crit resist which is useless in PVE. Leaves some holes in the story.

    I get it though. There are some crazy gank builds and you didn't even get into bleeds that will *** your tanky build even worse. But exhageration and gaps in the story don't really help bring light to the issues.

    They said two abilities used in combat but before that you’ll see he says he got hit with two skills before entering combat. By his wording you can assume he’s not counting the two before the combat music starts playing.

    I don't debate there's an issue. The presentation though makes it sound like a 2 shot instagib rather than really look at the issue.

    Having lethal arrow plus another ability hit at the same time has long been an issue. There is a problem when the GCD of a cast ability begins at the beginning of the cast so another ability can be fired immediately after. Stealth just unable you to actually land it and boosting damage from stealth is also kind of dumb given the advantages stealth gives you.

    Bleeds: which looks like the attacker had and didn't even have to use, get a to be another issue all together as it's meant to counter tanks but wrecks everyone else as well. The only counter is purge or to out heal it and out healing it is unlikely with defile, and even templar extended ritual in this case where you see 6 debuffs (and possibly more) may not get rid if it and what it does can be easier reapplied

    Just posting hyperbole to try to show all of this just comes across as salty rather than reasoning out what's wrong. An example is fine, but more detailed information such as sets, stats, cp load out would bring a more intelligent discussion beyond "trust me, I tank PVE. "

    Technohic - DC Templar
    Technohicz - DC Nightblade
    Technohix - DC Sorc
    TechDKnohic - DC DK
    Tech No Hic - DC Warden
    Necrohic - DC Necromancer
  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    1. Snipe is the buggest ability in game
    2. 3.3k impen = -1.5;. NB still has a 1.7 mod after in CPs
    3. The combo played out fully against you
    Gamer tag: ShenronNacht NA Xbox One
    1100+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er
    Shepherd of Rot - Stamina Necromancer BG Archer - No Gank
  • TheFamousMockingbird
    Just to help with clarification on crit rate. The ganker had high crit rate, obviously. So a majority of hits you took were crits. Your critical resistance reduces the damage from those crits but they will still show in your log as critical hits.

    I have been dropped by similar combos as well on a resistance capped build, and as noted we didn't even get to the bleeds that would be ticking on you. I know one attacker was using Viper paired with Poisonous Serpent sets which I think has some sort of incestuous hidden synergy.

  • ChunkyCat
    ChunkyCat
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    8 percent proc chance in game means 50 percent proc chance in real life.

    Don’t try to nerd out that in game mathematology.
  • usmguy1234
    usmguy1234
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    Theignson wrote: »
    jTv3flumy Stam DK is AR36, 31k HP, 3018 Crit resist, 916 CP (lots in mitigation since I Main tank trials).  CM log (posted above) shows I was killed by a stealthed player  in 2.6 seconds and the player only used TWO ABILITIES in Combat!

    BEFORE ENTERING COMBAT I was: 1) hit for 10,000 damage (Lethal arrow and Poison injection hit me before combat started) , 2) Major Defiled, 3) Poisoned by Poison injection Dot 4) Poisoned by ravage health/creeping ravage health. 5) Poison status applied by Lethal injection. Before the game even notified me I was in combat!

    As soon as the music started, at 0.4 seconds, I was 1) hit with Incapacitating strike for 7082, 2) other players damage increased 3) Twin Blade and Blunt applied to me

    OK, so before I can do anything I have taken 17,000 damage and had FIVE dots applied.

    I dismounted and dodge rolled.

    The player hit ONE ability: steel tornado for 4500 AND this procced Befouled weapon.

    Since I was below 50%, The Poison injection DOT hit for more than the initial ability (3357); befouled weapon hit for 2257, Twin blade and bleed hit for 2807, Poisoned for 485, ravage health for 888, Creeping ravage for 427, and I was dead right after my dodge roll finished.

    A few other points:
    1) despite 3018 crit resist, 95.3% of damage taken was critical damage. Wtf??
    2) 10/13 hits in 2.6 seconds were critical
    3) ALL THE PROCS procced, 100%, This is statistically vanishingly improbable. Blunt and bleed: 8% chance; befouled weapon 20% , poison on weapon 20%: the odds of all 3 being applied at once on the first use of the ability = (0.2)(0.2) (0.08) == Three in One thousand.

    Summary: this no skill build (use two abilities in combat and let 6 procs kill the player) combined with ridiculous lag/ game mechanics (10k damage and 4 dots applied before combat even starts) is ridiculously over powered and completely unfair game play. Granted when you play solo you are going to have to deal with other solo players, but with these builds the fight is over before it starts. Most times, granted, gankers dont kill me. But if they can apply all their arrow hits before the fight and then hit you with Incapacitating right away, it is usually over immediately.

    Some people argue it is balanced because these lone gankers are useless in groups and can only gank, since they are glass cannons., and that the glass cannon build evens the fight. But, their cloak is all powerful when it is 1:1. Sometimes 10 people can't find a cloaking NB right in front of them--- 1:1 it is hopeless to try.

    ZOS quit worrying about Mage shields and other trivia and do something about poison stacking / lethal arrow garbage.




    A caluurion's legacy magblade can do exactly the same thing. It's stupid that such mechanics exist.
    Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
    Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
    Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
    Eirius- Altmer Magdk
    Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar

    Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.

  • CatchMeTrolling
    CatchMeTrolling
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    technohic wrote: »
    technohic wrote: »
    Lethal arrow
    Poison injection
    Incapacitate
    Steel tornado


    Looks like more than 2 abilities, some light attacks, and incredible luck.

    And why mention your PVE tanking in the same breath of having over 3k+ crit resist? Something has to change in your buildout between tanking PVE and getting all that crit resist which is useless in PVE. Leaves some holes in the story.

    I get it though. There are some crazy gank builds and you didn't even get into bleeds that will *** your tanky build even worse. But exhageration and gaps in the story don't really help bring light to the issues.

    They said two abilities used in combat but before that you’ll see he says he got hit with two skills before entering combat. By his wording you can assume he’s not counting the two before the combat music starts playing.

    I don't debate there's an issue. The presentation though makes it sound like a 2 shot instagib rather than really look at the issue.

    Having lethal arrow plus another ability hit at the same time has long been an issue. There is a problem when the GCD of a cast ability begins at the beginning of the cast so another ability can be fired immediately after. Stealth just unable you to actually land it and boosting damage from stealth is also kind of dumb given the advantages stealth gives you.

    Bleeds: which looks like the attacker had and didn't even have to use, get a to be another issue all together as it's meant to counter tanks but wrecks everyone else as well. The only counter is purge or to out heal it and out healing it is unlikely with defile, and even templar extended ritual in this case where you see 6 debuffs (and possibly more) may not get rid if it and what it does can be easier reapplied

    Just posting hyperbole to try to show all of this just comes across as salty rather than reasoning out what's wrong. An example is fine, but more detailed information such as sets, stats, cp load out would bring a more intelligent discussion beyond "trust me, I tank PVE. "

    I was just stating what I assumed he meant by his choice of words.

    But as far as ganking and getting “one shot” I know first hand that it can pretty much seem like you one banged someone even though you hit them with multiple attacks.

    Ebonheart Pact: Templar - Overlord - Knight Paladin Tiberium Aka The Golden Saint

  • Sanctum74
    Sanctum74
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    You are always going to be vulnerable while mounted. If you're solo then avoid the main routes, travel with others, or accept that you might get ganked. They got their combo off effectively and you died, respawn and try again. Nothing to see here.
  • Kadoin
    Kadoin
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    I'm glad I wear Whitestrake's all the time. Definitely cuts down on successful ganks...
  • Crixus8000
    Crixus8000
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    I had 26k hp, 30k res and 2k impen in no cp and got insta killed by 3 snipes all at the same time from one player. I wasn't even mounted and had all my buffs up lol. Gank builds can dish out insane levels of damage and combine that with dysnc bugs, lag and animation canceling and you can get basically one shot no matter how good you are.
    PC EU

    No cp Stamsorc - Lee Russell
  • Sanctum74
    Sanctum74
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    Theignson wrote: »
    "They got their combo off effectively and you died, respawn and try again"

    Well, the point of the post was to document how stealth ganker combos aren't like any other combo, because of the stealth mechanic. They have a completely unfair advantage.

    Just look at the combat log. The human nervous system has a reaction time of ~0.3 seconds. Therefore , by the time I could react, I had taken 17k damage and 5 dots. The fight was over.

    Gankers are like guys who cold-*** you (hit you when you aren't looking) to start a fight. That is the effect of stealth, which allows them to hit with multiple arrows and with extra damage and crit bonuses, before your game even signals you are in a fight and when you can't see them.

    Imagine if in boxing one fighter could hit before the round started. Or if one team in football could go offside. Or if one side was given 3 moves first in a chess match. All of it is basically unimaginable-- who would play? I can't think of any other game that allows this sort of imbalanced gameplay.

    Is there any other matchup in ESO, or any game, this imbalanced?


    I guess you missed the point of my post about being mounted at the time since that's when you took the majority of the damage. Like I said you will always be more vulnerable when mounted so avoid main routes, travel with others, or except you might get ganked.

    The fact of the matter is that gankers fail more than they succeed. This game is not a sanctioned sport and being a group based game it's not balanced around 1v1's either. I personally hate gankers too, but it does bring diversity to the classes.

    They haven't changed it in 4+ years so it's unlikely to change anytime soon so it's best to accept it and move on.
  • ShadowProc
    ShadowProc
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    I'm pretty sure this is me. Its balanced. When we fail at ganking it's usually a death sentence. Pop a detect pot and GG. to get to these numbers we have zero D.
  • CaliMade
    CaliMade
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    Zenimax need to make Cast time abilities pull you out of stealth. and if you initiate combat you aren’t allowed out of combat until your opponent is dead or one of you cut line of sight for 30 seconds. take away stealth crits too.
    XB1 GT- Cali Made


    Praetorian Stam DK Redguard

    Brigadier Stam/magblade (whatever i feel like running) Redguard

    Major Mag DK Dark Elf

    lieutenant Mag/stamplar (whatever i feel like running) Redguard
  • usmguy1234
    usmguy1234
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    psypanda wrote: »
    just gonna leave this here...
    K4KKRTo.png
    a83ZBnr.png
    p7bRQRg.png

    The first one... how the eff do you incap in to a snipe in 0.87 seconds when cast time on snipe is 1.1 seconds?
    Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
    Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
    Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
    Eirius- Altmer Magdk
    Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar

    Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.

  • technohic
    technohic
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    usmguy1234 wrote: »
    psypanda wrote: »
    just gonna leave this here...
    K4KKRTo.png
    a83ZBnr.png
    p7bRQRg.png

    The first one... how the eff do you incap in to a snipe in 0.87 seconds when cast time on snipe is 1.1 seconds?

    Only thing I can think of is you're mashing that incap button while the snipe cast is about to finish. Travel time at ranged of snipe with an instant will do that. I used to do it all the time with my stamplar to snipe into POTL and POTL hits first. Surprised its like that in melee range though.
    Technohic - DC Templar
    Technohicz - DC Nightblade
    Technohix - DC Sorc
    TechDKnohic - DC DK
    Tech No Hic - DC Warden
    Necrohic - DC Necromancer
  • Royaji
    Royaji
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    usmguy1234 wrote: »
    psypanda wrote: »
    just gonna leave this here...
    K4KKRTo.png
    a83ZBnr.png
    p7bRQRg.png

    The first one... how the eff do you incap in to a snipe in 0.87 seconds when cast time on snipe is 1.1 seconds?

    You cast snipe first and incap the target while it is in the air?
  • Callous2208
    Callous2208
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    usmguy1234 wrote: »
    psypanda wrote: »
    just gonna leave this here...
    K4KKRTo.png
    a83ZBnr.png
    p7bRQRg.png

    The first one... how the eff do you incap in to a snipe in 0.87 seconds when cast time on snipe is 1.1 seconds?

    I would also like to know this. Combos like this have been getting me a lot lately. I've been hit by a heavy attack, two snipes, and an incap in less than 1.5 seconds several dozen times over the past few weeks.
  • usmguy1234
    usmguy1234
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    technohic wrote: »
    usmguy1234 wrote: »
    psypanda wrote: »
    just gonna leave this here...
    K4KKRTo.png
    a83ZBnr.png
    p7bRQRg.png

    The first one... how the eff do you incap in to a snipe in 0.87 seconds when cast time on snipe is 1.1 seconds?

    Only thing I can think of is you're mashing that incap button while the snipe cast is about to finish. Travel time at ranged of snipe with an instant will do that. I used to do it all the time with my stamplar to snipe into POTL and POTL hits first. Surprised its like that in melee range though.

    Still doesn't make sense. You'd have to be close enough to land the incap after snipe casted. Even if you pulled that off they'd be literally milliseconds apart not 0.87. Unless this is some goofy snipe animation cancel or the add-on is wrong. The problem with your scenario like you said potl and snipe are both ranged so it makes sense. Kind of like dark flare and javelin use to be.
    Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
    Soul Razor- Altmer Magsorc
    Les Drago- Redguard Stamdk
    Eirius- Altmer Magdk
    Stormifeth- Altmer Magplar

    Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.

  • psypanda
    psypanda
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    usmguy1234 wrote: »
    The first one... how the eff do you incap in to a snipe in 0.87 seconds when cast time on snipe is 1.1 seconds?
    usmguy1234 wrote: »
    psypanda wrote: »
    just gonna leave this here...
    K4KKRTo.png
    a83ZBnr.png
    p7bRQRg.png

    The first one... how the eff do you incap in to a snipe in 0.87 seconds when cast time on snipe is 1.1 seconds?

    I would also like to know this. Combos like this have been getting me a lot lately. I've been hit by a heavy attack, two snipes, and an incap in less than 1.5 seconds several dozen times over the past few weeks.

    its actually easy to pull of. at least what i am doing on my ganker.

    to reproduce:
    1. pop an invis pot (so you wont uncloak)
    2. run up very close to your target
    3. charge a snipe (keep in mind that snipe has a cast time + a "flying" time of the projectile of around ~0.5 seconds if you are standing 1 cm next to the target - the further away the longer the flying time.
    4. hit the guy with an incap as soon as your snipe finished the channel
    5. top that off with a either LA + killersblade or just killersblade
    6. profit & #makegankinggreatagain

    here is a small video to showcase this: https://youtu.be/rAxwGVrKDEQ
    the combat log of this video:
    [17:54] [psypãnda]: Hekaterîn - DPS: 36,975 (37,382 in 0:01.0)
    pvee7sQ.png
    (the snipe was an unlucky non crit :/)

    everything will hit the enemy below or slightly above 1 second if you do it right.
    your incap will even hit the tareget BEFORE your snipe projectile hits (check the combat log).
    if the enemy has below 26hp its almost always a "oneshot". (ofc this depends on the amount of impen and some other stuff)
    ofc the right gear/cp is also important since your snipe/incap/killersblade need to hit like a truck.

    Edited by psypanda on October 1, 2018 4:00PM
    President of the official Lucina Civello Fanclub
  • Callous2208
    Callous2208
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    Yikes! @psypanda In your opinion is there much risk in that at all? Just trying to justify it in my head without raging and calling it broken. The times I've seen it used efficiently these folks are wiping multiple people with ease, as no one can ever find them. Also seem to have decent ability to fight anyone face to face if they are found.
    Edited by Callous2208 on October 1, 2018 4:00PM
  • psypanda
    psypanda
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    Yikes! @psypanda In your opinion is there much risk in that at all? Just trying to justify it in my head without raging and calling it broken. The times I've seen it used efficiently these folks are wiping multiple people with ease, as no one can ever find them. Also seem to have decent ability to fight anyone face to face if they are found.

    well if you ask me directly id say its broken and should be looked at.
    on the other hand i have a lot of fun again on my dedicated gank blade. didnt have that much fun since they nerfed the HA ganking and/or viper ganking from some time ago (you can still find an old yt video of this on my channel - no advertisement :3) the only real downside to this kind of ganking (comparing it with the old mentioned HA/viper) is that you can only do it if you have your ultimate up, so you cant just "chaingank" people like you could back then.

    i think this and caluurion + zaan + warmaiden (or other dmg set) are the only real options to gank atm
    Edited by psypanda on October 1, 2018 4:07PM
    President of the official Lucina Civello Fanclub
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