A summary of Amazing CP Pvp.

CatchMeTrolling

Stigant wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

I don’t think this is a situation of balance but one where the players don’t know when to walk away. You described them as tanks and having a healer. Why waste your time attempting to deal with them, I walk away from players like that.

While that particular situation might not have been the case, problem with groups like this, 4 tanky players and healer, is that they usually don't let you just walk away, especially EP skyrim fanboys on PC EU (from mz experience) and I bet it's very similar on other platforms ... they will go after you keep snaring and CC ing you doing their subpar damage which they sacrificed for their tankiness and keep you in combat ... and after you finally shake them off, they will start keyboardwarrioring you in PMs or even better, come to forums complaining about overperformjng forward momentum, stamina mobility, Vigor or simply anything they will blame for their inability to kill you.

I know I know... raise floor, lower ceiling, let players get their alliance ranks faster (that's why it doesn't matter any more), but to be honest if I was in that fight and those 5 guys would be able to drop me in within a minute or less, I d say fair enough, I overextended, got outnumbered and killed in 2v5 by group that knows what are they doing... but ... having to fight their ress attempts on their NB friend and seeing they have no clue how to drop my duo of pure DDs, surviving and getting carried by incredibly tanky pocket healer, knowing that if I try to pull out they will follow me right the second one of them gets the 5th one ressed, I'd be as triggered as OP, in all honesty.

9 out of 10 when people can’t kill me and I can’t kill them I’m able to walk away, doesn’t matter how many it is. The most recent was when I was in a 1v3 against a Stam Warden, magplar and a werewolf who I think was a dk. Every time I came close to killing one of them they panicked ulted stalemating the fight, so eventually I sheathed my weapons and walked away. The thing is most people know when they’re not going to be able to kill you and leave you alone.

Sure there’s people who will never give up or accuse you of spamming heals and dodge rolling but it’s not that serious to care.

Callous2208

I don't really see anything wrong here. A dedicated healer and some tanks surviving against some amateur glass cannon build PvP'rs. We can't expect ZoS to balance the game around a small scale skirmish where some underwhelming damage dealers did as expected and couldn't down healers and tanks.

leepalmer95

Callous2208 wrote: »

I don't really see anything wrong here. A dedicated healer and some tanks surviving against some amateur glass cannon build PvP'rs. We can't expect ZoS to balance the game around a small scale skirmish where some underwhelming damage dealers did as expected and couldn't down healers and tanks.

Underwhelming huh.

Master weps
6k wpn dmg when i proc alch + rav

Stamplar so lots of pressure and dmg

But underwhelming sure.

Callous2208

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

I don't really see anything wrong here. A dedicated healer and some tanks surviving against some amateur glass cannon build PvP'rs. We can't expect ZoS to balance the game around a small scale skirmish where some underwhelming damage dealers did as expected and couldn't down healers and tanks.

Underwhelming huh.

Master weps
6k wpn dmg when i proc alch + rav

Stamplar so lots of pressure and dmg

But underwhelming sure.

I agree with you. You could tell the dd's just weren't that great, especially the stamplar. You know how it is with some folks though, thinking weapon damage gear is gonna assure them a win against skilled groups with a dedicated healer. That's why folks like us have to speak out when we see a clear case of skill and setup out playing cheese, when that cheese cries unfair.

Ariades_swe

Callous2208 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

I don't really see anything wrong here. A dedicated healer and some tanks surviving against some amateur glass cannon build PvP'rs. We can't expect ZoS to balance the game around a small scale skirmish where some underwhelming damage dealers did as expected and couldn't down healers and tanks.

Underwhelming huh.

Master weps
6k wpn dmg when i proc alch + rav

Stamplar so lots of pressure and dmg

But underwhelming sure.

I agree with you. You could tell the dd's just weren't that great, especially the stamplar. You know how it is with some folks though, thinking weapon damage gear is gonna assure them a win against skilled groups with a dedicated healer. That's why folks like us have to speak out when we see a clear case of skill and setup out playing cheese, when that cheese cries unfair.

Agreed.
Very subpar gameplay in that vid.

IZZEFlameLash

I think the only thing wrong here is how you underestimated their abilities. I also do not feel the res itself is a problem. Why shouldn't large scalers be able to do what small scalers do? Like for example, having few run off and come back for res or put up a camp for another fight. Perhaps it is the mentality. But, I really don't want res mechanics to change because I might be the receiving end of it at some point. Anyways, I don't find anything wrong in this video. They are tanky, have a dedicated healer and deals very little damage. If anything is wrong, damage builds healing and tanking so much is what seems to be wrong when damage builds are specced into damage, not tanking and healing and yet they do all 3 at the same time. So yeah. I see nothing wrong here other than the fact that you underestimated your opponents.

Stamicka

This is a pretty significant issue that isn’t as easy as it seems to solve. I agree with you, these players shouldn’t be able to survive. Theres not much you can do against it unfortunately. The good news is that ZOS knows this and they’ve tried to introduce things to fix it but it ends up backfiring. Look at Duroks Bane for example. That set would be great in a situation like this but instead it was utilized as a tool by the exact same types of people that would use a Reactive build. Another example is this upcoming set:
Soldier of Anguish (Medium)
2: Weapon Damage
3: Weapon Critical
4: Weapon Damage
5: When you deal damage with a melee attack, you have a 25% chance to traumatize your enemy, negating their next 5500 points of healing for 4 seconds. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.

These sets would aid in fights like this but they hurt solo and smallscale more. Having strong healing is absolutely crucial to being able to solo or smallscale, so it’s hard to implement a change that fixes Zerg healing but also doesn’t ruin smallscale.

smashcats

Until heavy armor builds and tanky builds like that have a way to be killed the balance will never change, your mega weapon damage means nothing might as well just tank with them and everybody dance while healing

frozywozy

As much as I disagree about people asking for major nerfs to magicka classes other than magsorc (stamina classes have had it way easier for years and will keep getting better next patch), I believe that in general, and in relation to the problem from OP's video, there should be more counter-play to people running builds with a high health pool. We already have minor / major mangle that most likely should be used by other skills than Pulsar. I am also thinking about specific skills available to everybody. Maybe in undaunted or weapon trees. A morph that would deal a % of damage of the target's max health.

I believe that counter-play shouldn't be available only with gear sets providing a specific 5pc bonus that counter a specific game mechanic. This penalizes the player too much when fighting people with different builds.

Counter-play should be mostly from choosing one morph of an abilities that will still give you a considerable bonus for using that ability (will provide you damage, healing, sustain) and counter a specific mechanic OR add a snare/root/CC.

In other words, this is how I would design abilities :

First morph :

One of the following :

1) Damage
2) Healing
3) Sustain

Plus one of the following :

1) Game mechanic counter
2) Snare
3) Root
4) CC

Second Morph

One of the following :

1) Damage
2) Healing
3) Sustain

Plus one of the following :

1) More Damage
2) More Healing
3) More Sustain

ATomiX96

Stigant wrote: »

... "raise the floor, lower the ceiling" philosophy ZoS decided to embrace ...

idk why Zos likes to "casualize" everything, buff zergs - nerf solo/smallscale players ... nice.
Skill floor and ceiling are so close to each other its disgusting.
The only thing you can kill outnumbered are complete potatoes and meh-pvpers.
Once there are some decent+ PvP-ers which actually know what they are doing the only thing left you can do is run and hope for them to split up.

Rukzadlithau

I‘m not defending the group or their approach to PvP. But look at your complaints and what you bring to the table in this scenario:

• No consistent source of defile
• Several chances missed to burst the same target
• Boasting about conditional one dimensional stats

To me it looks more like an infantile attempt to redeem yourself from a failed duo encouter with a non full-potato group.

What truly bugs me out, you‘re always very vocal about things in the game that hurt your current approach to PvP. Next you falsely market these things as „Meta“, while you truly abuse broken op Meta (Master DW bleeds).

This video is proof you‘re not that far ahead from understanding things compared to the people you call „bad players“.

/e
Rather make a constructive thread that campaigns for a rez penalty, and have a neutral approach to it.

Donny_Vito

That video was extremely boring, especially with no sound. You wasted 5 minutes of my life, and then another 10 minutes reading the bashing that happened thereafter.

VirtualElizabeth

I am not trying to be argumentative but I just need a bit of clarification: What exactly is the problem when a 2 man group is brought down by a 4 man group?

I mean I thought the OP did a good job of trying to win the battle - but the numbers were against him. Please explain the problem?

Thanks!

VaranisArano

VirtualElizabeth wrote: »

I am not trying to be argumentative but I just need a bit of clarification: What exactly is the problem when a 2 man group is brought down by a 4 man group?

I mean I thought the OP did a good job of trying to win the battle - but the numbers were against him. Please explain the problem?

Thanks!

The problem is that the OP feels they have a high damage build and so they should have been able to overcome 4 other players who were built tankier and who had a dedicated healer.

The OP did not win the fight because of the healbot and because battle-rezzing is too easy. ZOS should balance the game accordingly.

(The OP didn't win that fight because the 4 players actually knew what they were doing and thats exactly how I'd expect a fight like that to play out in CP small scale. There's a reason CP isnt in Battlegrounds anymore. Healbots and tanks are pretty balanced for Cyrodiil's large scale PVP, but the TTK was really long in 4v4v4 Battlegrounds.)

leepalmer95

VaranisArano wrote: »

VirtualElizabeth wrote: »

I am not trying to be argumentative but I just need a bit of clarification: What exactly is the problem when a 2 man group is brought down by a 4 man group?

I mean I thought the OP did a good job of trying to win the battle - but the numbers were against him. Please explain the problem?

Thanks!

The problem is that the OP feels they have a high damage build and so they should have been able to overcome 4 other players who were built tankier and who had a dedicated healer.

The OP did not win the fight because of the healbot and because battle-rezzing is too easy. ZOS should balance the game accordingly.

(The OP didn't win that fight because the 4 players actually knew what they were doing and thats exactly how I'd expect a fight like that to play out in CP small scale. There's a reason CP isnt in Battlegrounds anymore. Healbots and tanks are pretty balanced for Cyrodiil's large scale PVP, but the TTK was really long in 4v4v4 Battlegrounds.)

I didn't win the fight because of the stupid meta in cp now. So tanky that it's not a question of 'can i do this' it's just 'i can't even touch them'.

Also straight up abusing reviving, we drop a guy then spend 5m wasting resource stopping the guy getting revived while trying to stay alive and find time to try go on the offence even though it's pointless.

Just a sad state the game is now. When fights aren't decided by players and what they do by just by builds.

Donny_Vito

leepalmer95 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

VirtualElizabeth wrote: »

I am not trying to be argumentative but I just need a bit of clarification: What exactly is the problem when a 2 man group is brought down by a 4 man group?

I mean I thought the OP did a good job of trying to win the battle - but the numbers were against him. Please explain the problem?

Thanks!

The problem is that the OP feels they have a high damage build and so they should have been able to overcome 4 other players who were built tankier and who had a dedicated healer.

The OP did not win the fight because of the healbot and because battle-rezzing is too easy. ZOS should balance the game accordingly.

(The OP didn't win that fight because the 4 players actually knew what they were doing and thats exactly how I'd expect a fight like that to play out in CP small scale. There's a reason CP isnt in Battlegrounds anymore. Healbots and tanks are pretty balanced for Cyrodiil's large scale PVP, but the TTK was really long in 4v4v4 Battlegrounds.)

I didn't win the fight because of the stupid meta in cp now. So tanky that it's not a question of 'can i do this' it's just 'i can't even touch them'.

Also straight up abusing reviving, we drop a guy then spend 5m wasting resource stopping the guy getting revived while trying to stay alive and find time to try go on the offence even though it's pointless.

Just a sad state the game is now. When fights aren't decided by players and what they do by just by builds.

Why didn't you two have a healer with you? So many resources were wasted on using Vigor constantly that you'd be better off having a healer in your group instead of trying to do it yourself. That way you could always be on the offensive.

leepalmer95

Donny_Vito wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

VirtualElizabeth wrote: »

I am not trying to be argumentative but I just need a bit of clarification: What exactly is the problem when a 2 man group is brought down by a 4 man group?

I mean I thought the OP did a good job of trying to win the battle - but the numbers were against him. Please explain the problem?

Thanks!

The problem is that the OP feels they have a high damage build and so they should have been able to overcome 4 other players who were built tankier and who had a dedicated healer.

The OP did not win the fight because of the healbot and because battle-rezzing is too easy. ZOS should balance the game accordingly.

(The OP didn't win that fight because the 4 players actually knew what they were doing and thats exactly how I'd expect a fight like that to play out in CP small scale. There's a reason CP isnt in Battlegrounds anymore. Healbots and tanks are pretty balanced for Cyrodiil's large scale PVP, but the TTK was really long in 4v4v4 Battlegrounds.)

I didn't win the fight because of the stupid meta in cp now. So tanky that it's not a question of 'can i do this' it's just 'i can't even touch them'.

Also straight up abusing reviving, we drop a guy then spend 5m wasting resource stopping the guy getting revived while trying to stay alive and find time to try go on the offence even though it's pointless.

Just a sad state the game is now. When fights aren't decided by players and what they do by just by builds.

Why didn't you two have a healer with you? So many resources were wasted on using Vigor constantly that you'd be better off having a healer in your group instead of trying to do it yourself. That way you could always be on the offensive.

Because there was two of us. Why didn't i have 20 with me then?

Even if there was a healer with us we would not of killed that healer, way too tanky, too much hp to burst and too many heals so we can't even sustain dps them and then burst... It's just one of those stupid CP healbot builds which have no counter.

Pretty much everyone always had vigor up in a fight like that, unless you want to get brought to 60-70% hp then burst. They may have been bad tank builds but there was 4 of them and all they had to do is drop ults at the same time, doesn't matter if the db's only hit for 4k. Numbers carry's everything in this game.

Donny_Vito

I'm having a difficult time telling if the root of the problem is that you can't defeat outnumbered opponents, or that you can't beat opponents when one of them is a healer. I feel like it's the former because you say Numbers carry everything in this game...so why even engage when you're outnumbered 2 to 1? Move on, and live to die another day.

leepalmer95

Donny_Vito wrote: »

I'm having a difficult time telling if the root of the problem is that you can't defeat outnumbered opponents, or that you can't beat opponents when one of them is a healer. I feel like it's the former because you say Numbers carry everything in this game...so why even engage when you're outnumbered 2 to 1? Move on, and live to die another day.

So your answer is to run away if i'm ever outnumbered?

So i'd be running away like 95% of my time on the game in that case.

Donny_Vito

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

I'm having a difficult time telling if the root of the problem is that you can't defeat outnumbered opponents, or that you can't beat opponents when one of them is a healer. I feel like it's the former because you say Numbers carry everything in this game...so why even engage when you're outnumbered 2 to 1? Move on, and live to die another day.

So your answer is to run away if i'm ever outnumbered?

So i'd be running away like 95% of my time on the game in that case.

You said that numbers were everything in PvP. You quickly saw you were outnumbered, and yet you choose to engage. How can you be upset at the outcome?

leepalmer95

Donny_Vito wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

I'm having a difficult time telling if the root of the problem is that you can't defeat outnumbered opponents, or that you can't beat opponents when one of them is a healer. I feel like it's the former because you say Numbers carry everything in this game...so why even engage when you're outnumbered 2 to 1? Move on, and live to die another day.

So your answer is to run away if i'm ever outnumbered?

So i'd be running away like 95% of my time on the game in that case.

You said that numbers were everything in PvP. You quickly saw you were outnumbered, and yet you choose to engage. How can you be upset at the outcome?

I said numbers are everything now, which is not a good thing..

VirtualElizabeth

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

I'm having a difficult time telling if the root of the problem is that you can't defeat outnumbered opponents, or that you can't beat opponents when one of them is a healer. I feel like it's the former because you say Numbers carry everything in this game...so why even engage when you're outnumbered 2 to 1? Move on, and live to die another day.

So your answer is to run away if i'm ever outnumbered?

So i'd be running away like 95% of my time on the game in that case.

You said that numbers were everything in PvP. You quickly saw you were outnumbered, and yet you choose to engage. How can you be upset at the outcome?

I said numbers are everything now, which is not a good thing..

Okay now I am annoyed. How is losing because you are outnumbered not a good thing? So basically you want PVP to be about supporting your special snowflake build and running over mobs of 4-6 to be the norm - that the sense of realism of being outnumbered is a downside???

I understand what you are saying in terms of being Rick Rolled by a group of 10-20 that chase you down for miles. But winning a 2 x 4 should be an accomplishment, not a standard!

p00tx

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

VirtualElizabeth wrote: »

I am not trying to be argumentative but I just need a bit of clarification: What exactly is the problem when a 2 man group is brought down by a 4 man group?

I mean I thought the OP did a good job of trying to win the battle - but the numbers were against him. Please explain the problem?

Thanks!

The problem is that the OP feels they have a high damage build and so they should have been able to overcome 4 other players who were built tankier and who had a dedicated healer.

The OP did not win the fight because of the healbot and because battle-rezzing is too easy. ZOS should balance the game accordingly.

(The OP didn't win that fight because the 4 players actually knew what they were doing and thats exactly how I'd expect a fight like that to play out in CP small scale. There's a reason CP isnt in Battlegrounds anymore. Healbots and tanks are pretty balanced for Cyrodiil's large scale PVP, but the TTK was really long in 4v4v4 Battlegrounds.)

I didn't win the fight because of the stupid meta in cp now. So tanky that it's not a question of 'can i do this' it's just 'i can't even touch them'.

Also straight up abusing reviving, we drop a guy then spend 5m wasting resource stopping the guy getting revived while trying to stay alive and find time to try go on the offence even though it's pointless.

Just a sad state the game is now. When fights aren't decided by players and what they do by just by builds.

Why didn't you two have a healer with you? So many resources were wasted on using Vigor constantly that you'd be better off having a healer in your group instead of trying to do it yourself. That way you could always be on the offensive.

Because there was two of us. Why didn't i have 20 with me then?

Even if there was a healer with us we would not of killed that healer, way too tanky, too much hp to burst and too many heals so we can't even sustain dps them and then burst... It's just one of those stupid CP healbot builds which have no counter.

Pretty much everyone always had vigor up in a fight like that, unless you want to get brought to 60-70% hp then burst. They may have been bad tank builds but there was 4 of them and all they had to do is drop ults at the same time, doesn't matter if the db's only hit for 4k. Numbers carry's everything in this game.

Wrong. A good PvP healer would have been popping Purifying Light on them to aid with the burst from all of your dmg. A good healer would have been running resource poisons, which is the only way to burn down a tanky build like that. A good healer would have kept you buffed so you could do even more dmg and may have even thrown in a Shooting Star from time to time for even more burst. Stop acting like healers aren't useful. Your elitism is what makes you lose fights like this. Nothing more.

VirtualElizabeth

p00tx wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

VirtualElizabeth wrote: »

I am not trying to be argumentative but I just need a bit of clarification: What exactly is the problem when a 2 man group is brought down by a 4 man group?

I mean I thought the OP did a good job of trying to win the battle - but the numbers were against him. Please explain the problem?

Thanks!

The problem is that the OP feels they have a high damage build and so they should have been able to overcome 4 other players who were built tankier and who had a dedicated healer.

The OP did not win the fight because of the healbot and because battle-rezzing is too easy. ZOS should balance the game accordingly.

(The OP didn't win that fight because the 4 players actually knew what they were doing and thats exactly how I'd expect a fight like that to play out in CP small scale. There's a reason CP isnt in Battlegrounds anymore. Healbots and tanks are pretty balanced for Cyrodiil's large scale PVP, but the TTK was really long in 4v4v4 Battlegrounds.)

I didn't win the fight because of the stupid meta in cp now. So tanky that it's not a question of 'can i do this' it's just 'i can't even touch them'.

Also straight up abusing reviving, we drop a guy then spend 5m wasting resource stopping the guy getting revived while trying to stay alive and find time to try go on the offence even though it's pointless.

Just a sad state the game is now. When fights aren't decided by players and what they do by just by builds.

Why didn't you two have a healer with you? So many resources were wasted on using Vigor constantly that you'd be better off having a healer in your group instead of trying to do it yourself. That way you could always be on the offensive.

Because there was two of us. Why didn't i have 20 with me then?

Even if there was a healer with us we would not of killed that healer, way too tanky, too much hp to burst and too many heals so we can't even sustain dps them and then burst... It's just one of those stupid CP healbot builds which have no counter.

Pretty much everyone always had vigor up in a fight like that, unless you want to get brought to 60-70% hp then burst. They may have been bad tank builds but there was 4 of them and all they had to do is drop ults at the same time, doesn't matter if the db's only hit for 4k. Numbers carry's everything in this game.

Wrong. A good PvP healer would have been popping Purifying Light on them to aid with the burst from all of your dmg. A good healer would have been running resource poisons, which is the only way to burn down a tanky build like that. A good healer would have kept you buffed so you could do even more dmg and may have even thrown in a Shooting Star from time to time for even more burst. Stop acting like healers aren't useful. You elitism is what makes you lose fights like this. Nothing more.

Thanks @p00tx for this comment.

OP - In the past I often played as one of those "stupid healbots" as you refer to HEALERS as. Like p00tx, our job is to do more than just throw Breath of Life and healing springs. We are there to buff the players and help to damage our worthy opponents. OP - I challenge you to try and run a healer in pvp at some point. Thanks!

fullheartcontainer

hey all! I play a templar heal/tank.

While it's true it's very hard to kill me, it does come with cons

1. I can't kill you. Period. I have no damage abilities on my bar. Even if I put them on my bar, they won't do anything to you.
2. My heals are quite a bit weaker than a light armor build. I can focus heal people, but you can damage through it easily by focusing targets.
3. As a templar, I don't have a ton of group synergies like other classes do, for example DK's Igneous Shields and Weapons.

Basically, my build is about getting off the heals/purges I can and not dying, because an alive healer is better than a squishy dead one. When my team goes down, I rez.

So, while I understand your frustration in that your DPS isn't able to kill me, I think you should understand that I've specifically built my character to resist your kind of builds, and that I do have drawbacks of my own. Thank you

NBrookus

VirtualElizabeth wrote: »

OP - In the past I often played as one of those "stupid healbots" as you refer to HEALERS as. Like p00tx, our job is to do more than just throw Breath of Life and healing springs. We are there to buff the players and help to damage our worthy opponents. OP - I challenge you to try and run a healer in pvp at some point. Thanks!

This. Just spamming BoL and healing springs doesn't make you a good healer. Good healers are a treasure. And they build tanky because they have too. Dying from being focused means you do zero heals.

I've fought infinite rez groups and it's annoying. It's frustrating and not fun, true. But the OP's whole premise seems to be they deserved to kill them because they run meta builds and that makes them superior. Anyone who builds specifically to defend against that must be bad?

ATomiX96

the problem with the battle-spirit idea is that it doesnt punish tanky builds, so it doesnt matter if you run a 20k hp 40k magicka templar or a 40k hp 20k magicka templar your heals will still be similar (its not a day and night difference).

IZZEFlameLash

ATomiX96 wrote: »

the problem with the battle-spirit idea is that it doesnt punish tanky builds, so it doesnt matter if you run a 20k hp 40k magicka templar or a 40k hp 20k magicka templar your heals will still be similar (its not a day and night difference).

Again, why do tanky builds need to be punished when they have to give up damage especially if they are magicka? This game overnerfed almost everything defensive over the past 4 years and I for sure don't want them to nerf defensive builds just to have high damage builds being the only real defensive builds with high healing and tankiness from sheer power of their heals. And if your 20k HP 40k Magplar heals are similar to 40k HP 20k Magplar heals, you clearly built the healer wrong.

frozywozy

fullheartcontainer wrote: »

hey all! I play a templar heal/tank.

While it's true it's very hard to kill me, it does come with cons

1. I can't kill you. Period. I have no damage abilities on my bar. Even if I put them on my bar, they won't do anything to you.
2. My heals are quite a bit weaker than a light armor build. I can focus heal people, but you can damage through it easily by focusing targets.
3. As a templar, I don't have a ton of group synergies like other classes do, for example DK's Igneous Shields and Weapons.

CompM4s

I don’t get on the high expectation on killing groups when out numbered. It seems if certain people can 1vx they complain and demand nerfs. You are out numbered. Unless you are significantly better than that group and focus down one at a time, you will probably lose. Especially if they have a dedicated healer.