How do MagSorcs fight against stam classes in PvP?

Furcula

This is not a nerf or buff thread, I'm simply curious as to what experienced players do so I can learn. I myself is very new to PvP and often feel useless against stam players.

There are 3 things that I struggle with:

1. Unable to kite stamplayers as they can sprint to you in no time or use their gap closers so I have to be on the defensive a lot of the time. This sometimes leads me to run out of magicka/stamina for shields/dodge rolling/blocking rapidly especially if there's more than 1 enemy.

2. My offensive skills don't do enough damage. I'm running 5-1-1 light with impen and infused on large pieces. I try to whittle them down but a vigor here and there negate all my damage since I lack a DOT or maim skill. On the few occasions that I do get a proper combo off with my curse, frags etc, they don't do enough damage to get them down to execute range and either I have to go back on the defensive or they heal it all back.

3. This one is just more general against any other player in general. Finding the opportunity to go on the offensive is very difficult. I lack a DOT heal like vigor and usually when I do get a break from the barrage of attacks, I have to catch my breath and heal myself back up. It's either go on the offensive or go on the defensive, there's not really a way to do both.

If someone could give me some pointers, that would be great! Thanks.

Phreeki

Easy fix and this is what ZoS really wants you to do..........

Roll a stam toon......there all fixed.

ArchMikem

Curse, flame reach, force pulse, mages fury, dead. Throw in a Meteor just before a flame reach. Spam shields.

Waffennacht

Phreeki wrote: »

Easy fix and this is what ZoS really wants you to do..........

Roll a stam toon......there all fixed.

Tis true sadly.

So Shields have a cast time or are capped - shield strength lost
Shields can resistance - shield strength gained, but at a loss of max mag meaning probably slight net gain
Shields can be critically hit - making the above points Moot - I now have to build for resistance, crit resistance, and max mag - impossible as all stats are gained from the same sources.

Then you have an opportunity cost analysis - why run a mag sorc with the above headache when literally any other class has better offensive and defensive capabilities?

I think they calculate opportunity costs of classes within themselves, but not against other classes.

I personally see no advantage (in theme or literally efficiency) in running a mag Sorc in PvP.

ArchMikem wrote: »

Curse, flame reach, force pulse, mages fury, dead. Throw in a Meteor just before a flame reach. Spam shields.

That's 3 GCDs, of which only curse and meteor is undodgeable. If I'm facing such an attack, dodge into a CC is gonna force the sorc into defensive mode either wasting the combo or resulting in a kill. Especially if my Dodge cancelled attack has to face a 4k shield or you are forced into a cast time

usmguy1234

Furcula wrote: »

This is not a nerf or buff thread, I'm simply curious as to what experienced players do so I can learn. I myself is very new to PvP and often feel useless against stam players.

There are 3 things that I struggle with:

1. Unable to kite stamplayers as they can sprint to you in no time or use their gap closers so I have to be on the defensive a lot of the time. This sometimes leads me to run out of magicka/stamina for shields/dodge rolling/blocking rapidly especially if there's more than 1 enemy.

2. My offensive skills don't do enough damage. I'm running 5-1-1 light with impen and infused on large pieces. I try to whittle them down but a vigor here and there negate all my damage since I lack a DOT or maim skill. On the few occasions that I do get a proper combo off with my curse, frags etc, they don't do enough damage to get them down to execute range and either I have to go back on the defensive or they heal it all back.

3. This one is just more general against any other player in general. Finding the opportunity to go on the offensive is very difficult. I lack a DOT heal like vigor and usually when I do get a break from the barrage of attacks, I have to catch my breath and heal myself back up. It's either go on the offensive or go on the defensive, there's not really a way to do both.

If someone could give me some pointers, that would be great! Thanks.

They don't. They just sit there waiting to be cc'd to oblivion or eat a skalk, db, gg combo

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Sadly, you are describing the pain points of mag Sorc in their current state. There is a belief among zerglings that Sorcs are over powered because they see mages wrath in their death recap, and don’t have the DPS to pressure shields, but once you leave Chalman/aleswell Zerg train, you realize they have some serious issues.

Sorc mobility via streak is a joke compared to the stamina Swift meta, and only complicates a Sorcs sustain problems. It is also completely nullified by gap closers.

Sorc offense has no pressure. It is all about burst. You either need to time it with a CC of your own, our catch someone that doesn’t realize you are there (i.e. nuke someone that is fighting someone else). As our main CC is dodgable, it’s very difficult to catch a good stamina player with it.

A Sorcs defense (shields) scales very poorly against multilpe opponents. Simply put a great mag Sorc will not beat two Stam characters that are at least competent as they can out DPS even the best shield stacks.

Best pointers I can give are never let Shields fall and build for more sustain than you think you need. You have to keep your distance and be very picky about the fights you choose to engage. You are simply not going to win a fight against multiple Stam opponents 9 times out of 10. The best Sorcs are very patient and will try to kite players out of resources and then burst them down. The Swift meta makes this much more difficult.

If you are still relatively new, I would strongly consider another class with all the PTS changes we are seeing. Sorcs are in trouble.

JimmyJuJu

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

...but once you leave Chalman/aleswell Zerg train, you realize they have some serious issues.

So others have noticed this?

Shantu

I have similar issues running my MagDK. I've resorted to a shield-less (the Fragmented version is pathetic), heavy armor with 30k+ resistances setup that fares a little better. Leap does some nice damage and temporary defensive buffs, but other damage skills end up looking pretty whimpy against good players. The lack of Stamina is also a continuous pain point, as it makes vigor pretty useless and quickly dissipates in a constant barrage of CC's. Seriously thinking about re-rolling as stam based.

Jinchuu

The same way all other magicka LA users besides DKs do, get dunked on unless you hit some lucky crits or the other guy bobbles. If you're not playing stam, especially with the ridiculous upcoming changes, then you're wasting your time since Zo$ hates magicka (besides NBs but the stam version will be superior after Nerfmire) for some reason.

Emmagoldman

^ dk can be tricky with that, as long as warden.

each class you need to fight differenly and you need to learn counters.

For example, nost nbs will poisen inject, suprise attack, fear, incap and execute. If this fails, they generally stealth, reset and repeat.

Im always ready to break fear and roll dodge (i run amberplasm and shackle). the incap usually misses and I can put on shields to go offensive. When they go to stealth, I streak. A lot of nbs try to just keep going into stealth and you can stay offensive.

Warden can put up shields but has a really corigraphed attack. They will attempt to line up burst. You will see the hit shalk, charge a heavy, dizzy swing and dawnbreaker into execute. I usually streak through them to gain offensive.

Wreuntzylla

ArchMikem wrote: »

Curse, flame reach, force pulse, mages fury, dead. Throw in a Meteor just before a flame reach. Spam shields.

I haven't PvP'd with a magsorc in a bit, but I used to streak through the front of enemy, turn ultra fast with high mouse sensitivity (most people will break the cc and turn towards you giving you 2-3 seconds), burst, move to next target. Full dps build, 40k+ magicka, no impen.

If you pull this off right, it's one of the few times you can overload LA a decent player. Assuming all of this is still viable.

Amdar_Godkiller

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Sadly, you are describing the pain points of mag Sorc in their current state. There is a belief among zerglings that Sorcs are over powered because they see mages wrath in their death recap, and don’t have the DPS to pressure shields, but once you leave Chalman/aleswell Zerg train, you realize they have some serious issues.

Sorc mobility via streak is a joke compared to the stamina Swift meta, and only complicates a Sorcs sustain problems. It is also completely nullified by gap closers.

Sorc offense has no pressure. It is all about burst. You either need to time it with a CC of your own, our catch someone that doesn’t realize you are there (i.e. nuke someone that is fighting someone else). As our main CC is dodgable, it’s very difficult to catch a good stamina player with it.

A Sorcs defense (shields) scales very poorly against multilpe opponents. Simply put a great mag Sorc will not beat two Stam characters that are at least competent as they can out DPS even the best shield stacks.

Best pointers I can give are never let Shields fall and build for more sustain than you think you need. You have to keep your distance and be very picky about the fights you choose to engage. You are simply not going to win a fight against multiple Stam opponents 9 times out of 10. The best Sorcs are very patient and will try to kite players out of resources and then burst them down. The Swift meta makes this much more difficult.

If you are still relatively new, I would strongly consider another class with all the PTS changes we are seeing. Sorcs are in trouble.

Umm, the issue with swift is mag sorcs using it in along with shield stacking. There's not much issue with stamina toons using swift. Even less so now that shuffle is useless and dodge roll no longer gives the additional second of dodge chance.

Bam_Bam

Are you serious?

I still see sorcs ripping groups to pieces in PC EU Vivec campaign.

Sylosi

Sorc threads are funny, the basis of "balance" is apparently being on an equal footing 1vX, none of them have heard of using LOS so think gap closers are a "complete" counter, complain about swift on opponents, but are apparently too dumb to use it themselves and so on...

Oreyn_Bearclaw

JimmyJuJu wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

...but once you leave Chalman/aleswell Zerg train, you realize they have some serious issues.

So others have noticed this?

LMAO, I think one or two probably have.

There are basically three zerg trains, between each of the factions, that are almost always there. Mag sorcs absolutely excel in this particular aspect of PVP. They can play from the back lines, and wait for squishy targets to nuke. If that's where you want to live, sorc is fine, perhaps even a touch OP. That is not, however, where the skilled players spend most of their time, and the kills you get have little merit.

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Sadly, you are describing the pain points of mag Sorc in their current state. There is a belief among zerglings that Sorcs are over powered because they see mages wrath in their death recap, and don’t have the DPS to pressure shields, but once you leave Chalman/aleswell Zerg train, you realize they have some serious issues.

Sorc mobility via streak is a joke compared to the stamina Swift meta, and only complicates a Sorcs sustain problems. It is also completely nullified by gap closers.

Sorc offense has no pressure. It is all about burst. You either need to time it with a CC of your own, our catch someone that doesn’t realize you are there (i.e. nuke someone that is fighting someone else). As our main CC is dodgable, it’s very difficult to catch a good stamina player with it.

A Sorcs defense (shields) scales very poorly against multilpe opponents. Simply put a great mag Sorc will not beat two Stam characters that are at least competent as they can out DPS even the best shield stacks.

Best pointers I can give are never let Shields fall and build for more sustain than you think you need. You have to keep your distance and be very picky about the fights you choose to engage. You are simply not going to win a fight against multiple Stam opponents 9 times out of 10. The best Sorcs are very patient and will try to kite players out of resources and then burst them down. The Swift meta makes this much more difficult.

If you are still relatively new, I would strongly consider another class with all the PTS changes we are seeing. Sorcs are in trouble.

Umm, the issue with swift is mag sorcs using it in along with shield stacking. There's not much issue with stamina toons using swift. Even less so now that shuffle is useless and dodge roll no longer gives the additional second of dodge chance.

I have absolutely messed around with swift on a mag sorc. It makes streak effectively useless, which is fine I suppose, but its one more useless skill in the sorcs arsenal. You can certainly hit the speed cap while sprinting with major expedition. At that point, streak just becomes clunky and hard to control effectively. The disadvantage to this is that unlike stam users, and some of the other magic classes, your only source of snare removal is mist form, which you can't sprint with. So actually, it can slow you down to some degree. You certainly dont have room for mist AND streak on your bar, not that it would make a ton of sense to try and run both. Sorc damage is also not in the best place at the moment, and I assure you, you feel the loss of the arcane jewelry. Sorcs already typically run 1.5 sustain sets (i count shackle as half damage half sustain), and if you take that further with 3 swift, you will struggle hard to kill a stamina opponent that knows to press roll dodge 3 seconds after they are cursed.

On my stamblade, which these days I play more than sorc, I dont even need three swift to get to the speed cap. I also have stamina for days, so sprinting essentially infinitely is doable. Swift also means I can cover far more ground each time I cloak, which only makes the skill more powerful. If you think the stamina swift meta is not much of an issue, my only conclusion is that you dont PVP or that when you do, you are in fact running a stamina swift character, because speed in this game is frankly out of control. Stamina is far superior to mag in Cyo these days.