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Got the idea of new changes - game considered too easy.

  • Mystrius_Archaion
    Mystrius_Archaion
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    Drygon wrote: »
    Molag bal was a reward? The quest made me think he is some kind of badass and i expected to die a few times before i learned the mechanics and adapt to the boss, but no, he not only did not do dmg but his abilities or so lame for how strong the story made him to seem. That fight was a hype killer as i hoped that at least the final boss would pack a punch.

    I do not get it why the Simulacrum of Molag Bal is so much stronger when even it can be soloed, take him out of the pvp context(as players are the main problem there) and give players the option to use the buff from The amulet of Kings or not, and he would have packed a punch..

    It was required by the story that you got superpowered to fight Molag Bal because you couldn't fight him normally. His Simulacrum was weaker thus you could fight it normally.
    Did you forget when Molag Bal telekinetically grabbed you in his giant form? If not for the Amulet power up then you would have had your head bit off or been immediately crushed.

    This is a common trope in many stories, especially comics like how the "mary sue" we call Superman is somehow nearly killed by a glowing green rock but other times shrugs it off and is otherwise invincible until the story author chooses otherwise.

    This is why we need what is called "suspension of disbelief" or we wouldn't enjoy the stories at all.
  • Malem_Benign
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    This game is not "too easy". It's challenging enough, arguably too challenging. Hard content does not equal fun, especially for people with lives outside of ESO.

    Please leave the game's difficulty alone, or make it slightly more manageable, but definitely not harder.

    I didn't like Dark Souls (I think 2 was the one I tried), I personally thought it was too hard. If you guys like banging your head against a wall trying to complete something, then be my guest. But don't be trying to make ESO into that. ESO is not Dark Souls. ESO, is an Elder Scrolls game, which means it should be interesting and enjoyable for all, with some challenge, but not so hard that it is too challenging and people quit the game.

    Just because a very small percentage of the playerbase can faceroll the content like it's made of butter, doesn't mean everybody can.

    Agree on that this kind of difficulty is for sure one of the sources of ESO popularity.
  • Ocelot9x
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    @Mystrius_Archaion
    You know,if you spend less time making overly long post here on the forum and more in game learning the basics you’ll eventually find the game easy too.
  • greylox
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    I suppose they want even less people to be able to complete vet dlc dungeons and VMA etc. Maybe they want people to quit to make server performance better...
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  • Mystrius_Archaion
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    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    @Mystrius_Archaion
    You know,if you spend less time making overly long post here on the forum and more in game learning the basics you’ll eventually find the game easy too.

    It is easy, for me, but that does not mean the game is easy.

    You don't understand the difference which is why you are so very wrong and we are all glad you don't design anything for this game. Even you would be glad you don't design for this game because if you did and had your money on the line or your job on the line then you would be losing money or out of a job because you wouldn't have enough customers.
  • Ocelot9x
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    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    @Mystrius_Archaion
    You know,if you spend less time making overly long post here on the forum and more in game learning the basics you’ll eventually find the game easy too.

    It is easy, for me, but that does not mean the game is easy.

    You don't understand the difference which is why you are so very wrong and we are all glad you don't design anything for this game. Even you would be glad you don't design for this game because if you did and had your money on the line or your job on the line then you would be losing money or out of a job because you wouldn't have enough customers.

    It’s hard to explain cause English is not even my third language but I’ll give a try.
    You think that a game should cater to casuals right? And it’s true but it depends on which life cycle is the game.
    We have 1) launch 2) growing/developing fan base 3) crystallising player base 4) slow decline
    While is true that the game should be “easier” at the beginning of his life to appeal more people,once it burnt his catchment area (aka everyone interested in mmorpgs gave eso a try) it should start producing harder content to make sure veterans and whales don’t quit out of boredom cause there won’t any players left on market willing to start playing eso and having the same spending habits.
    You probably just read an article about economics and gaming and feel confident,but you’re oversimplifying the concept of more easy content=more players=more money.
    And I’m not interested in working at zos,Since I’ll earn more getting s job for what I’ve studied ^^
  • Mystrius_Archaion
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    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    @Mystrius_Archaion
    You know,if you spend less time making overly long post here on the forum and more in game learning the basics you’ll eventually find the game easy too.

    It is easy, for me, but that does not mean the game is easy.

    You don't understand the difference which is why you are so very wrong and we are all glad you don't design anything for this game. Even you would be glad you don't design for this game because if you did and had your money on the line or your job on the line then you would be losing money or out of a job because you wouldn't have enough customers.

    It’s hard to explain cause English is not even my third language but I’ll give a try.
    You think that a game should cater to casuals right? And it’s true but it depends on which life cycle is the game.
    We have 1) launch 2) growing/developing fan base 3) crystallising player base 4) slow decline
    While is true that the game should be “easier” at the beginning of his life to appeal more people,once it burnt his catchment area (aka everyone interested in mmorpgs gave eso a try) it should start producing harder content to make sure veterans and whales don’t quit out of boredom cause there won’t any players left on market willing to start playing eso and having the same spending habits.
    You probably just read an article about economics and gaming and feel confident,but you’re oversimplifying the concept of more easy content=more players=more money.
    And I’m not interested in working at zos,Since I’ll earn more getting s job for what I’ve studied ^^

    more players = more money
    Whether the content is easy or hard has nothing to do with that equation even if it does affect "more players".

    This game is not even in your "stage 3" or "stage 4 slow decline". It's still growing. It's mainly growing by the "snowball effect", where snowballs get larger by collecting more snow. Everybody wants to play a popular MMO because having players to group with is important in an MMO. You can't even complete a lot of content without a minimum group size, unless it is made easier.

    Do you even know why ESO is how big it is? ESO is how big it is because of 3 main factors:

    1) It's "The Elder Scrolls". People enjoyed the single player games' amazing worlds and ability to do anything we wanted, even massacring the whole town. People actually very often enjoyed modding in cheats. The most popular Elder Scrolls games were TES3 Morrowind and later games because of mods. I had more fun building with the limitless tools and enjoying what I built with cheat mods to avoid barriers to my fun builds much more than I ever enjoyed playing without mods. I started TES3 Morrowind on Xbox first and built my own PC just to get the PC version and mods because I loved that and the potential cheats so much just so I could see the entire world and not get killed from behind by a random enemy.

    2) ESO is easy to control. It allows gamepad play as well as keyboard and mouse and it does so well. It's not like they made it hard to use ground targeted effects with a gamepad. They don't expect you to need 10 skill bars with 10 slots each, like City of Heroes had, or even 2 skills bars with 10 slots.
    The simple combat allowed them to make the user interface really simple so we could enjoy the beautiful world without menus in the way.

    3) The game has very good graphics and huge open spaces. This is obvious.


    If people really played any game for difficulty and great PVP then they wouldn't be playing this game.
    They have Dark Souls and Call of Duty and EVE Online and old school MMOs like Tibia, with hardcore death penalty of 10-20% xp loss and all item loss with open world PVP, that are all far better at difficulty and PVP.

    We play ESO because it is easy to control and easy to play and "make our own difficulty" if we want to. Most of us don't make our own difficulty.
    In fact, the people arguing "make the game more difficult" absolutely refuse to do the obvious to make it more difficult on themselves; they refuse to take off gear or not use champion points or not use skills to make everything harder. They're like Michael Jordan playing basketball against 10-year-old children and complaining that he "isn't challenged enough". They're like a 15-year-old student complaining that they have a calculator for their math schoolwork that makes the math too easy instead of choosing to not use the calculator; if you took the calculator away from that student, as was their wish, then they would complain that they don't have the calculator as an option. It's all lies they tell themselves to avoid putting effort into making things more difficult on themselves; ironically, they just want it effortless and easy to make it more difficult, which is stupid.

    Nobody plays an entire game for difficulty, unless they're a masochist and/or want "bragging rights" which isn't why they "play" for a long time. They play easy games and make their own challenges. It's only since the advent of online games and MMOs that they now can lazily ask for somebody else to make that challenge for them so they don't have to put any effort or thought into it themselves; there are also many who "just want to see others suffer" as their reason for asking for higher difficulty changes to the whole game.


    Trust me on this. I know more about human psychology than anything else because I had to be self-taught by avoiding beatings from angry people most of my life and avoiding back-stabbing politics at work. I figured out what people want and what they really mean quite early.
    Everybody is selfish, and they either use that selfish impulse to make everything easier and better for themselves by making it easier and better for everyone or they want it easier only for themselves or they selfishly want to see others suffer so they make it harder on everyone, including themselves, because they get their more important goal in the end. Anybody who is even close to "truly selfless" probably committed suicide already with people telling them "the world would be better without you" that they sadly would believe.
    Edited by Mystrius_Archaion on October 7, 2018 7:55AM
  • Biro123
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    It's fairly straight forward. At max-cp, the game is too easy. With no-cp (and no gear), even overland can be challenging.

    Every new version, we get a rise in the CP cap and new sets, and sometimes new ability lines that generate 'power-creep'.
    This makes the game easier at max-cp. There is no escaping that fact and it happens every patch.

    Then Zos notices that it's dungeons are cleared too quickly and certain classes/builds have benefitted more from the changes, contributing to that fast clear, so to 'manage' this power creep, they nerf that class.
    Now this only makes the game *more* challenging for those just starting.
    It also homogenises the classes, and slowly, bit by bit strips them of their identity.
    All so they can entice players to buy their new dlc with that new, shiny, better gear.

    I hate this approach. It's only damaging the game in the long run, and annoying players with the constant nerfs (since they can't buff the others instead, when power creep is the problem, right?)
    Edited by Biro123 on October 7, 2018 9:09AM
    Minalan owes me a beer.

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  • Strider__Roshin
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    This game is way too easy. I enjoyed vMA when it first came out, and the same with vDSA in the very beginning. Hard Mode DLC/Trial content can be fun too.

    Unfortunately these examples are not the majority of the game, and yes difficulty does equal fun. You don't find enjoyment playing a game where you're guaranteed to win. Fun is achieved by overcoming obstacles or fulfilling objectives that aren't easily achieved. The more difficult the content, the more accomplished you feel afterwards. High difficulty requires incentives though because we are lazy creatures, and if we can acquire something an easier/faster way we will; hence magicka.

    The mentality among the PvE community has been why bring stam when you can bring magicka and get it done easier (or in some cases at all). This has led to the drastic changes we've seen in Murkmire, and it's been a long time coming, and obviously a lot of people are upset over the fact that this game is no longer going to be on easy mode for them.
    Edited by Strider__Roshin on October 7, 2018 11:41AM
  • Mystrius_Archaion
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    Daus wrote: »
    This game is way too easy. I enjoyed vMA when it first came out, and the same with vDSA in the very beginning. Hard Mode DLC/Trial content can be fun too.

    Unfortunately these examples are not the majority of the game, and yes difficulty does equal fun. You don't find enjoyment playing a game where you're guaranteed to win. Fun is achieved by overcoming obstacles or fulfilling objectives that aren't easily achieved. The more difficult the content, the more accomplished you feel afterwards. High difficulty requires incentives though because we are lazy creatures, and if we can acquire something an easier/faster way we will; hence magicka.

    The mentality among the PvE community has been we bring stam when you can bring magicka and get it done easier (or in some cases at all). This has led to the drastic changes we've seen in Murkmire, and it's been a long time coming, and obviously a lot of people are upset over the fact that this game is no longer going to be on easy mode for them.

    You contradict yourself.
    If we're lazy then we don't want to put effort into difficult things.

    Fun has never required incentive. I have fun because it is fun.
    I'm sure you don't really know the true reason you play a game, the parts that aren't difficult especially. You still login for holiday events, for example, and I bet you have fun, but do you even know why? You probably never gave it enough thought.

    If difficulty was the only fun and only reason we played games then we wouldn't be playing ESO at all because it supposedly isn't difficult for most of the game until you get to endgame.
    That's what you are saying which contradicts itself.


    Some of the most fun things in games I have ever done have not been difficult at all. Playing with physics engines for example keeps me entertained for very long times. For example, the grenade launches in the original Halo: Combat Evolved were so much fun and absolutely not difficult at all; just have two controllers and co-op mode, gather grenades and pile it up in one spot then drive a vehicle over it and detonate the grenades for awesome fun. The physics made it behave different every time so the entertainment was just finding out which ways it would go by moving things around. It was pure luck, not difficulty, in getting the launch to go anywhere specific.

    Seriously, if we played games for difficulty then we would love our difficult jobs and love driving in heavy traffic with people weaving through traffic and almost wrecking our car with us in it. The only thing about difficulty that anybody ever enjoys is when it is over, but if it takes longer than tolerable to get over then people don't like it.

    It's funny....so many people cite that "everyone just wants instant gratification" and yet they also say "people want difficult and challenge" which are polar opposites. You can't have "instant gratification" with a "difficult challenge in the way".
    Edited by Mystrius_Archaion on October 7, 2018 11:49AM
  • Strider__Roshin
    Strider__Roshin
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    Daus wrote: »
    This game is way too easy. I enjoyed vMA when it first came out, and the same with vDSA in the very beginning. Hard Mode DLC/Trial content can be fun too.

    Unfortunately these examples are not the majority of the game, and yes difficulty does equal fun. You don't find enjoyment playing a game where you're guaranteed to win. Fun is achieved by overcoming obstacles or fulfilling objectives that aren't easily achieved. The more difficult the content, the more accomplished you feel afterwards. High difficulty requires incentives though because we are lazy creatures, and if we can acquire something an easier/faster way we will; hence magicka.

    The mentality among the PvE community has been we bring stam when you can bring magicka and get it done easier (or in some cases at all). This has led to the drastic changes we've seen in Murkmire, and it's been a long time coming, and obviously a lot of people are upset over the fact that this game is no longer going to be on easy mode for them.

    You contradict yourself.
    If we're lazy then we don't want to put effort into difficult things.

    Fun has never required incentive. I have fun because it is fun.
    I'm sure you don't really know the true reason you play a game, the parts that aren't difficult especially. You still login for holiday events, for example, and I bet you have fun, but do you even know why? You probably never gave it enough thought.

    If difficulty was the only fun and only reason we played games then we wouldn't be playing ESO at all because it supposedly isn't difficult for most of the game until you get to endgame.
    That's what you are saying which contradicts itself.


    Some of the most fun things in games I have ever done have not been difficult at all. Playing with physics engines for example keeps me entertained for very long times. For example, the grenade launches in the original Halo: Combat Evolved were so much fun and absolutely not difficult at all; just have two controllers and co-op mode, gather grenades and pile it up in one spot then drive a vehicle over it and detonate the grenades for awesome fun. The physics made it behave different every time so the entertainment was just finding out which ways it would go by moving things around. It was pure luck, not difficulty, in getting the launch to go anywhere specific.

    Seriously, if we played games for difficulty then we would love our difficult jobs and love driving in heavy traffic with people weaving through traffic and almost wrecking our car with us in it. The only thing about difficulty that anybody ever enjoys is when it is over, but if it takes longer than tolerable to get over then people don't like it.

    It's funny....so many people cite that "everyone just wants instant gratification" and yet they also say "people want difficult and challenge" which are polar opposites. You can't have "instant gratification" with a "difficult challenge in the way".

    There's no contradiction in stating that I want difficult content with incentives, because challenging content is enjoyable. Not that difficult to discern.

    As far as why I play the game? PvP. It's the only content with longevity. New challenging PvE content is fun, but hand fed victory isn't. For instance, I've managed to do the new DLC dungeons on hard mode, but I have yet to beat the main story for either clockwork city or Summerset. The PvE is too easy to the point where it's a chore for me to even play it.

    The issue is that once you've beaten this PvE content there's little reason to do it again because there's nothing random about the fight.
  • Mystrius_Archaion
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    Daus wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    This game is way too easy. I enjoyed vMA when it first came out, and the same with vDSA in the very beginning. Hard Mode DLC/Trial content can be fun too.

    Unfortunately these examples are not the majority of the game, and yes difficulty does equal fun. You don't find enjoyment playing a game where you're guaranteed to win. Fun is achieved by overcoming obstacles or fulfilling objectives that aren't easily achieved. The more difficult the content, the more accomplished you feel afterwards. High difficulty requires incentives though because we are lazy creatures, and if we can acquire something an easier/faster way we will; hence magicka.

    The mentality among the PvE community has been we bring stam when you can bring magicka and get it done easier (or in some cases at all). This has led to the drastic changes we've seen in Murkmire, and it's been a long time coming, and obviously a lot of people are upset over the fact that this game is no longer going to be on easy mode for them.

    You contradict yourself.
    If we're lazy then we don't want to put effort into difficult things.

    Fun has never required incentive. I have fun because it is fun.
    I'm sure you don't really know the true reason you play a game, the parts that aren't difficult especially. You still login for holiday events, for example, and I bet you have fun, but do you even know why? You probably never gave it enough thought.

    If difficulty was the only fun and only reason we played games then we wouldn't be playing ESO at all because it supposedly isn't difficult for most of the game until you get to endgame.
    That's what you are saying which contradicts itself.


    Some of the most fun things in games I have ever done have not been difficult at all. Playing with physics engines for example keeps me entertained for very long times. For example, the grenade launches in the original Halo: Combat Evolved were so much fun and absolutely not difficult at all; just have two controllers and co-op mode, gather grenades and pile it up in one spot then drive a vehicle over it and detonate the grenades for awesome fun. The physics made it behave different every time so the entertainment was just finding out which ways it would go by moving things around. It was pure luck, not difficulty, in getting the launch to go anywhere specific.

    Seriously, if we played games for difficulty then we would love our difficult jobs and love driving in heavy traffic with people weaving through traffic and almost wrecking our car with us in it. The only thing about difficulty that anybody ever enjoys is when it is over, but if it takes longer than tolerable to get over then people don't like it.

    It's funny....so many people cite that "everyone just wants instant gratification" and yet they also say "people want difficult and challenge" which are polar opposites. You can't have "instant gratification" with a "difficult challenge in the way".

    There's no contradiction in stating that I want difficult content with incentives, because challenging content is enjoyable. Not that difficult to discern.

    As far as why I play the game? PvP. It's the only content with longevity. New challenging PvE content is fun, but hand fed victory isn't. For instance, I've managed to do the new DLC dungeons on hard mode, but I have yet to beat the main story for either clockwork city or Summerset. The PvE is too easy to the point where it's a chore for me to even play it.

    The issue is that once you've beaten this PvE content there's little reason to do it again because there's nothing random about the fight.

    And yet the majority of people playing the game don't PVP and don't do hard modes or even veteran content.
    You're in the minority and yet you seem to think that the majority wants the same things you want.
  • code65536
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    Yes, PVE nerfs happen when PVEers find the game too easy.

    And yes, by the devs' standards, PVEers are finding vet end-game content too easy. We've seen the high DPS bragging, the complaints about healers being useless compared to a 3rd damage dealer, and that damage shields make things simple. As for overland, well, that's been easy since One Tamriel.

    This isnt even the first time this happened. The Great Sustain Nerfs of Morrowind were another situation where PVE end game content was becoming too easy for players, so ZOS nerfed sustain.

    Are the nerfs a good thing? The nerfs are a good thing for the Developers. Now, they dont have to design super hard new content for top tier end game players that nobody else can touch.

    Think about vAS and vCR. Now consider what ZOS would have to do to design harder content for higher DPS. There's a reason the devs nerf players.

    Now, mind you, the devs also nerf the meta on a regular basis to encourage players who care about chasing the meta to grind. That's constantly happening since One Tamriel and is a different type of nerf than this across the board nerf to survivability to reset the difficulty of end-game content.

    Everyone must have Immortal Redeemer or Gryphon Heart or Tick-Tock Tormentor, then! That Pure Lunacy achievement must be raining from the skies.

    PvE too easy? The top players in the world doing pad 3 vMoL HM burns literally don't need shields because by doing a pad 3 burn, they aren't being exposed to the Breath of Lorkhaj debuff that forces them out of healing and defiles them. The vast majority of players who can beat vMoL can't beat vMoL HM, and it'll be even harder for those players now that they have much weaker shields that will get instantly shredded when Void Spheres pop, instantly exposing them to health damage that can't be easily healed because of Breath of Lorkhaj.

    I suggest that anyone who thinks that PvE is too easy to PUG a vet DLC dungeon via group finder. :trollface:
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  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    code65536 wrote: »
    Yes, PVE nerfs happen when PVEers find the game too easy.

    And yes, by the devs' standards, PVEers are finding vet end-game content too easy. We've seen the high DPS bragging, the complaints about healers being useless compared to a 3rd damage dealer, and that damage shields make things simple. As for overland, well, that's been easy since One Tamriel.

    This isnt even the first time this happened. The Great Sustain Nerfs of Morrowind were another situation where PVE end game content was becoming too easy for players, so ZOS nerfed sustain.

    Are the nerfs a good thing? The nerfs are a good thing for the Developers. Now, they dont have to design super hard new content for top tier end game players that nobody else can touch.

    Think about vAS and vCR. Now consider what ZOS would have to do to design harder content for higher DPS. There's a reason the devs nerf players.

    Now, mind you, the devs also nerf the meta on a regular basis to encourage players who care about chasing the meta to grind. That's constantly happening since One Tamriel and is a different type of nerf than this across the board nerf to survivability to reset the difficulty of end-game content.

    Everyone must have Immortal Redeemer or Gryphon Heart or Tick-Tock Tormentor, then! That Pure Lunacy achievement must be raining from the skies.

    PvE too easy? The top players in the world doing pad 3 vMoL HM burns literally don't need shields because by doing a pad 3 burn, they aren't being exposed to the Breath of Lorkhaj debuff that forces them out of healing and defiles them. The vast majority of players who can beat vMoL can't beat vMoL HM, and it'll be even harder for those players now that they have much weaker shields that will get instantly shredded when Void Spheres pop, instantly exposing them to health damage that can't be easily healed because of Breath of Lorkhaj.

    I suggest that anyone who thinks that PvE is too easy to PUG a vet DLC dungeon via group finder. :trollface:

    That's part of the point. The Devs can't possibly design content to appease the very top tier of players who do DPS high enough to skip mechanics. If they did, the vast majority of players could never touch it.

    Instead, ZOS nerfs the top tier, so they can keep the level of DPS needed to complete content within reach of most players who do that content, with hard mode as a challenge.
  • susmitds
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    Hello again,

    After watching this interesting show for some time I've finally get the idea...

    I have to reluctantly agree with much of this. One sees the many "Git Gud" and "It's too easy,;I cleared VMA naked in 28 seconds" posts. A quick and dirty Google search suggests very few have actually completed VMA; posts from a year ago put it under 1/2% on consoles. I'm trying for a second clear (on my main account) knowing I won't even attempt it again once shield nerfs go through.

    I play the game for fun, not to "git gud" at something that doesn't matter or be forced into a high-commitment group activity that will take 2 hours. Someone will say, "MMO." Watching guild chat and player locations suggests that most players fit this mold and most are going through content solo or in PUGs. PvP has to be balanced around top-tier players. The majority of PvE does not. In the end, I vote my wallet. I have yet to purchase a single dungeon DLC and won't unless they release content that is soloable or fun to do casually with PUGS. Maybe the top 5% of players are spending 95% of the money. If not, it's difficult to understand why ZOS is choosing this path.

    Over 90% of the players are just casual players won't touch any hard content, be it vMA or trials or vet. dungeons. They don't really count as they already have everything in the game they need to enjoy. On the other hands, the remaining players faceroll everything. There is not really any middle ground here.
  • Strider__Roshin
    Strider__Roshin
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    Daus wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    This game is way too easy. I enjoyed vMA when it first came out, and the same with vDSA in the very beginning. Hard Mode DLC/Trial content can be fun too.

    Unfortunately these examples are not the majority of the game, and yes difficulty does equal fun. You don't find enjoyment playing a game where you're guaranteed to win. Fun is achieved by overcoming obstacles or fulfilling objectives that aren't easily achieved. The more difficult the content, the more accomplished you feel afterwards. High difficulty requires incentives though because we are lazy creatures, and if we can acquire something an easier/faster way we will; hence magicka.

    The mentality among the PvE community has been we bring stam when you can bring magicka and get it done easier (or in some cases at all). This has led to the drastic changes we've seen in Murkmire, and it's been a long time coming, and obviously a lot of people are upset over the fact that this game is no longer going to be on easy mode for them.

    You contradict yourself.
    If we're lazy then we don't want to put effort into difficult things.

    Fun has never required incentive. I have fun because it is fun.
    I'm sure you don't really know the true reason you play a game, the parts that aren't difficult especially. You still login for holiday events, for example, and I bet you have fun, but do you even know why? You probably never gave it enough thought.

    If difficulty was the only fun and only reason we played games then we wouldn't be playing ESO at all because it supposedly isn't difficult for most of the game until you get to endgame.
    That's what you are saying which contradicts itself.


    Some of the most fun things in games I have ever done have not been difficult at all. Playing with physics engines for example keeps me entertained for very long times. For example, the grenade launches in the original Halo: Combat Evolved were so much fun and absolutely not difficult at all; just have two controllers and co-op mode, gather grenades and pile it up in one spot then drive a vehicle over it and detonate the grenades for awesome fun. The physics made it behave different every time so the entertainment was just finding out which ways it would go by moving things around. It was pure luck, not difficulty, in getting the launch to go anywhere specific.

    Seriously, if we played games for difficulty then we would love our difficult jobs and love driving in heavy traffic with people weaving through traffic and almost wrecking our car with us in it. The only thing about difficulty that anybody ever enjoys is when it is over, but if it takes longer than tolerable to get over then people don't like it.

    It's funny....so many people cite that "everyone just wants instant gratification" and yet they also say "people want difficult and challenge" which are polar opposites. You can't have "instant gratification" with a "difficult challenge in the way".

    There's no contradiction in stating that I want difficult content with incentives, because challenging content is enjoyable. Not that difficult to discern.

    As far as why I play the game? PvP. It's the only content with longevity. New challenging PvE content is fun, but hand fed victory isn't. For instance, I've managed to do the new DLC dungeons on hard mode, but I have yet to beat the main story for either clockwork city or Summerset. The PvE is too easy to the point where it's a chore for me to even play it.

    The issue is that once you've beaten this PvE content there's little reason to do it again because there's nothing random about the fight.

    And yet the majority of people playing the game don't PVP and don't do hard modes or even veteran content.
    You're in the minority and yet you seem to think that the majority wants the same things you want.

    Being part of a minority that enjoys intellectually stimulating content isn't a bad thing. Appealing to lowest common denominator just dumbs down the content.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    Daus wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    This game is way too easy. I enjoyed vMA when it first came out, and the same with vDSA in the very beginning. Hard Mode DLC/Trial content can be fun too.

    Unfortunately these examples are not the majority of the game, and yes difficulty does equal fun. You don't find enjoyment playing a game where you're guaranteed to win. Fun is achieved by overcoming obstacles or fulfilling objectives that aren't easily achieved. The more difficult the content, the more accomplished you feel afterwards. High difficulty requires incentives though because we are lazy creatures, and if we can acquire something an easier/faster way we will; hence magicka.

    The mentality among the PvE community has been we bring stam when you can bring magicka and get it done easier (or in some cases at all). This has led to the drastic changes we've seen in Murkmire, and it's been a long time coming, and obviously a lot of people are upset over the fact that this game is no longer going to be on easy mode for them.

    You contradict yourself.
    If we're lazy then we don't want to put effort into difficult things.

    Fun has never required incentive. I have fun because it is fun.
    I'm sure you don't really know the true reason you play a game, the parts that aren't difficult especially. You still login for holiday events, for example, and I bet you have fun, but do you even know why? You probably never gave it enough thought.

    If difficulty was the only fun and only reason we played games then we wouldn't be playing ESO at all because it supposedly isn't difficult for most of the game until you get to endgame.
    That's what you are saying which contradicts itself.


    Some of the most fun things in games I have ever done have not been difficult at all. Playing with physics engines for example keeps me entertained for very long times. For example, the grenade launches in the original Halo: Combat Evolved were so much fun and absolutely not difficult at all; just have two controllers and co-op mode, gather grenades and pile it up in one spot then drive a vehicle over it and detonate the grenades for awesome fun. The physics made it behave different every time so the entertainment was just finding out which ways it would go by moving things around. It was pure luck, not difficulty, in getting the launch to go anywhere specific.

    Seriously, if we played games for difficulty then we would love our difficult jobs and love driving in heavy traffic with people weaving through traffic and almost wrecking our car with us in it. The only thing about difficulty that anybody ever enjoys is when it is over, but if it takes longer than tolerable to get over then people don't like it.

    It's funny....so many people cite that "everyone just wants instant gratification" and yet they also say "people want difficult and challenge" which are polar opposites. You can't have "instant gratification" with a "difficult challenge in the way".

    There's no contradiction in stating that I want difficult content with incentives, because challenging content is enjoyable. Not that difficult to discern.

    As far as why I play the game? PvP. It's the only content with longevity. New challenging PvE content is fun, but hand fed victory isn't. For instance, I've managed to do the new DLC dungeons on hard mode, but I have yet to beat the main story for either clockwork city or Summerset. The PvE is too easy to the point where it's a chore for me to even play it.

    The issue is that once you've beaten this PvE content there's little reason to do it again because there's nothing random about the fight.

    And yet the majority of people playing the game don't PVP and don't do hard modes or even veteran content.
    You're in the minority and yet you seem to think that the majority wants the same things you want.

    Being part of a minority that enjoys intellectually stimulating content isn't a bad thing. Appealing to lowest common denominator just dumbs down the content.

    But boy does it sell!
  • karekiz
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    The games difficulty seems. Just fine to me. - 4 man dungeon perspective:

    Too easy you get this:


    This is an end boss of the a dungeon. It has multiple phases, and well. This is what a general *pug* group could do. No mics. No pre built group with tactics. Just a general pug could make it a tank and spank and w/e to it. Its not fun, nor is it entertaining beating on a target dummy with a texture change as your "endgame PvE experience".

    Too hard you get content that is vastly out of reach for most players due to LARGE DPS checks. This same game after not having released a dungeon in 4+ years did just that.......and it sucked. Went from no content, to a content release that was not remotely puggable as the DPS check basically kicked anyone not wearing full meta builds. Got a hurt hand? Insta kick as the DPS check was FAR too tight for some DPS to "miss a couple rotations".

    You can clear *every* DLC dungeon with Roles wearing gear like mad tinkerer/Night mother/Kagnec/Plague Doctor. All sets that are extremely easy to craft/acquire. Is it BIS? No. Is it good enough to clear DPS/Tank/Heal checks? Sure.

    Where this game gets its balance is through Hard Mode, which imo is a smart move. They can make hard mode have difficult DPS checks etc all they want w/o interfering with the ability to complete the content. HM offers either achievements or cash <in form of 100% motif drop>. Regular vet still has a chance of drop, but not 100%.

    For those that say its too easy:
    Then you can by all means take my blood root pugs. For a month straight I have pugged <not including Wolfhunter/Imperial City since no motif yet>, the motif DLC's. I think in a whole month I did 1. 1 HM DLC. Lowest success - bloodroot. Fang lair was surprisingly vastly easier to get pugs through. I would say 90% of my pugs have at least 1 player who has not completed the dungeon yet <vet>.

    For those that say "its too hard" - I have pugged multiple groups as tank though each of the motif dungeons. Is it easy? No. But far from impossible.
  • BretonMage
    BretonMage
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    code65536 wrote: »

    Shield nerfs are the same. They'll hurt the top. But that's nothing like the hurt that other players will feel.

    ^^^^^ Exactly. The shield nerfs will disproportionately affect lower level players who don't yet have the points pumped into defence in the CP system.
  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    There is a simple fact; which does make me wonder:

    They expressed how they wish to "raise the floor, lower the ceiling" however the changes in murk mire (to me) are the exact opposite of that.

    Capping Shields, nerfing movement speed, making CC abilities deal low damage, are all skill gap creators.

    Sure I can still solo most vet dungeons (non dlc) without a shield at all - most players have difficulty finishing that same content in a group.

    Sure I can time abilities to land with my CC, time a roll dodge, use LoS etc - so movement Nerfs and damage Nerfs don't really change the level of difficulty for me; a lot of players can't score a kill even with an "OP God mode " class.

    I also cite how I can almost guarantee any forum member is better than a non-forum visitor. We make up a very insignificant percentage (I've only ran into one other forum member randomly in game and I ask a lot). Most players won't even know the extent of the changes happening.

    I personally feel that these changes hurt causals far more
    Edited by Waffennacht on October 7, 2018 8:16PM
    Gamer tag: DasPanzerKat NA Xbox One
    1300+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er

    Waffennacht' Builds
  • arakis99ub17_ESO
    To the OP: I think you may be missing something.

    To be a really successful game you need PvE to be especially hard. This is the tack that Wildstar took and it went really well.

    In contrast, look at WoW that also has easy PvE outside of raids. Consider how much money Blizzard lost on this game.

    Obviously, zos did their research and looked at the market. They want the wild(pun intended) success of Wildstar while avoiding the abject failure that is WoW.

    Filthy casuals ruin games.

    The good news is that the overstressed servers will get some relief after this patch.

  • IwakuraLain42
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    There is a simple fact; which does make me wonder:

    They expressed how they wish to "raise the floor, lower the ceiling" however the changes in murk mire (to me) are the exact opposite of that.

    You have to look closely when they last used that phrase to explain their design decisions: that was before Morrowind. Any and all changes since then were targeted with design goals:
    1) creating a Sims-like theme park world for casual players with no real combat challenges required and an enormous amount of grind required to keep people playing (see the Morrowind blue prints changes for an example)
    2) creating group content for the 1-2% of the endgame players including regular nerfs/buffs to the current Meta to keep players busy.

    The harsh truth is that Zos simply doesn't care anymore about any of the mid-tier players anymore that fall outside of those target groups. We can play the base content and can try to deal with the combat changes directed to the top-tier and that's it.
  • Agalloch
    Agalloch
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    There is a simple fact; which does make me wonder:

    They expressed how they wish to "raise the floor, lower the ceiling" however the changes in murk mire (to me) are the exact opposite of that.

    Capping Shields, nerfing movement speed, making CC abilities deal low damage, are all skill gap creators.

    Sure I can still solo most vet dungeons (non dlc) without a shield at all - most players have difficulty finishing that same content in a group.

    Sure I can time abilities to land with my CC, time a roll dodge, use LoS etc - so movement Nerfs and damage Nerfs don't really change the level of difficulty for me; a lot of players can't score a kill even with an "OP God mode " class.

    I also cite how I can almost guarantee any forum member is better than a non-forum visitor. We make up a very insignificant percentage (I've only ran into one other forum member randomly in game and I ask a lot). Most players won't even know the extent of the changes happening.

    I personally feel that these changes hurt causals far more

    +1

    Respect for the elitists who finished all hard mode content. ( I am sure that many of them have more time to play than the majority.)

    But they are only 5-7 % from the player base.

    The rest are casuals or normal players that play the game for fun ..and not have so much time to spend one month to do the same thing ( Vet VAS + Hard Mode for example)

    I'd like to have 5-6 hours per day to play this great game....

    Too bad that nerfing players will make the game more harder for the vast majority of the playerbase.

    I hope some of the suggestions for improving the game posted here on the forums will be implemented in the game in the near future and will make ESO fun for everyone not only for 5-7% .

    We need horizontal and vertical progression , and more content for casuals and for elitists.


    English is not my native language.
  • Agalloch
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    code65536 wrote: »
    Yes, PVE nerfs happen when PVEers find the game too easy.

    And yes, by the devs' standards, PVEers are finding vet end-game content too easy. We've seen the high DPS bragging, the complaints about healers being useless compared to a 3rd damage dealer, and that damage shields make things simple. As for overland, well, that's been easy since One Tamriel.

    This isnt even the first time this happened. The Great Sustain Nerfs of Morrowind were another situation where PVE end game content was becoming too easy for players, so ZOS nerfed sustain.

    Are the nerfs a good thing? The nerfs are a good thing for the Developers. Now, they dont have to design super hard new content for top tier end game players that nobody else can touch.

    Think about vAS and vCR. Now consider what ZOS would have to do to design harder content for higher DPS. There's a reason the devs nerf players.

    Now, mind you, the devs also nerf the meta on a regular basis to encourage players who care about chasing the meta to grind. That's constantly happening since One Tamriel and is a different type of nerf than this across the board nerf to survivability to reset the difficulty of end-game content.

    Everyone must have Immortal Redeemer or Gryphon Heart or Tick-Tock Tormentor, then! That Pure Lunacy achievement must be raining from the skies.

    PvE too easy? The top players in the world doing pad 3 vMoL HM burns literally don't need shields because by doing a pad 3 burn, they aren't being exposed to the Breath of Lorkhaj debuff that forces them out of healing and defiles them. The vast majority of players who can beat vMoL can't beat vMoL HM, and it'll be even harder for those players now that they have much weaker shields that will get instantly shredded when Void Spheres pop, instantly exposing them to health damage that can't be easily healed because of Breath of Lorkhaj.

    I suggest that anyone who thinks that PvE is too easy to PUG a vet DLC dungeon via group finder. :trollface:

    Many players find groups via the group finder ( even the tool is broken so often).

    To pug for a vDLC dungeon is a real challenge, a lottery . Because many people think the DLC content is the same like the vanilla one.

    Why you often see in chat : LFG 4 KEYS . ??

    Because the V DLC dungeons are more harder ..and they are time consuming to teach and learn mechanics .

    90% of the people are playing for fun and relax.

    Instead of introducing more features and more content, equally for elitists and casuals, ZOS prefer to nerf all the players....

    And yes , this way the content will be harder :)


    English is not my native language.
  • Malem_Benign
    Malem_Benign
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    You guys again and again miss the true intentions of what is happening and drown in the mutual controversity.

    There is nothing but money behind all that stuff. More or less. Nothing more.

    That's the difference between game-as-a-service and the single player game where there is only one intention - to make you satisfied so more ppl will buy same product.

    You have to keep in mind that all the time you try to find the logic in such kind of things.

    This product is intented to force you to constant time and money spending for the ZoS company. No other means are behind all this.

    When you try to discuss different approaches, logically interprete the developers moves and other stuff - you just legirimize all this nonsense that is used to hide the true intentions.

    And the only way to influence all that stuff is to stand ground before these greedy intentions. Like it was with Battlefront.
    You have to decide that the level of dev's greed is enough from your point of view and you have to declare that. To show, that you are the full rights participant of this product and process, because it's you who pay them money.

    Only after that you can discuss with the devs the REAL balance changes, improvements and other stuff. When you are on the same level during that discussion.

    It's like in real life - democracy and dictatorship. All the same.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    You guys again and again miss the true intentions of what is happening and drown in the mutual controversity.

    There is nothing but money behind all that stuff. More or less. Nothing more.

    That's the difference between game-as-a-service and the single player game where there is only one intention - to make you satisfied so more ppl will buy same product.

    You have to keep in mind that all the time you try to find the logic in such kind of things.

    This product is intented to force you to constant time and money spending for the ZoS company. No other means are behind all this.

    When you try to discuss different approaches, logically interprete the developers moves and other stuff - you just legirimize all this nonsense that is used to hide the true intentions.

    And the only way to influence all that stuff is to stand ground before these greedy intentions. Like it was with Battlefront.
    You have to decide that the level of dev's greed is enough from your point of view and you have to declare that. To show, that you are the full rights participant of this product and process, because it's you who pay them money.

    Only after that you can discuss with the devs the REAL balance changes, improvements and other stuff. When you are on the same level during that discussion.

    It's like in real life - democracy and dictatorship. All the same.

    Then what's the point?

    ZOS is already catering to what they consider to be their largest demographic. ZOS is already increasing the grind and changing the meta regularly because they've correctly figured that many more players will keep playing longer than are going to leave. If that wasn't what their analysis was indicating, they wouldnt be doing it. ZOS devs and marketers, for all that we complain about them, aren't idiots. We may not like what they do, but its the right move from a profits perspective.

    There is no "stand your ground against greedy intentions" on a community wide level here. Not even at the level of the forums, with our much smaller active population.

    If we have to wait til we are full rights participants to have the balance discussion, then LOL, we'll be waiting a long time.
  • lokulin
    lokulin
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    Dr.NRG wrote: »
    You obviously seem to really dislike the game so whats the point really?

    Some of us are still here because we love the TES universe and have put hundreds or thousands of hours in to our main and we see ZOS slowly killing not just ESO but the TES franchise itself.
    I've hidden your signature.
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