Major/Minor Shielding to prevent stacking? PTS PvP results Magicka Sorc.

Malamar1229

I have mentioned multiple times, and once again after hearing rumors about the results of the mtng today.

Remove the cast time from shields.
Implement a Major/Minor Shielding system (Major would be annulement, hard ward, shimmering)(Minor would be like heal ward, obsidian shield, etc). That way Harness cannot be stacked with Hard Ward.

There is not a single competent PvP'er here who can tell you sorc shield in Wolfhunter is unbalanced in PvP...if anything, it was the stacking issue with harness. You are going about this incorrectly.

You want a proactive approach to shields, but magicka sorcs don't have the mobility to avoid getting 1 shotted not having a shield up. Again, even average players are removing hardened ward with (insert any spammable here) + Light attack. The CC/Snares are out of control, and without reliable mobility, a magicka sorc is dependent upon a reactive "counterplay" ability like hard ward. And even in Wolfhunter….standing still casting hard ward is only delaying the inevitable death. You have to get breathing room to even go on the offensive. Again, your reasoning is wrong. All you are doing is punishing good players and rewarding bad players. You are subsidizing the skill layers.

You current shield proposals will result in a class completely quitting PvP, rendering light armor useless outside of PvE content.

You PvE issue with mag sorcs was sustain, you basically moved it from one passive to another. Not solving a thing. Who cares about shields in PvE? Am I wrong that no one basically takes a magsorc in end game trials anyway b/c dps is not on par with stam? I don't think most sorcs can sustain 40k against a 6mill dummy. Again, I am not a huge end game PvE'er.
I have completed VDSA and VMA however...and since classes are in sep brackets anyway...what does it matter having instant shields in VMA? Anyone can roll a sorc, so there's no real unfair advantage there.

As for PvP, you are pigeon holing magicka sorcs into running impreg already, and then probably heavy armor if you keep the cast time. You are rendering yet another class useless in PvP. I guess the magdens needed a bench partner.

PhoenixGrey

How do you vision a light armor mag sorc surviving with one ward when outnumbered given the crit damage.

Wearing impreg is not a solution. Major/ minor system only works if hardened ward gets a major protection buff or something

Massacre_Wurm

Problem is not shield itself. Problem is shields stacking.
So as i said before just add 1 sec cast time to sorc's sheild OR LA's shield. Just not to the both at once )

DeadlyRecluse

The problem in PvP (might be) shield stacking, but that's not even the real target of the nerf.

The "problem" in PvE is instacast shields. They've made it pretty clear they don't want DPS toons in trials to hit one button to avoid mechanics.

Not saying I agree with it, but 80 percent of response to the shield cast time has been PvP related, despite the fact that it's barely relevant to the root cause of the nerf (or one of the root causes).

Mystrius_Archaion

A "shield over time" like multiple small shields such as that provided by the Lunar Bastion synergy(without the ground location) would be a much better solution than a cast time or making them major/minor buffs and not allowing group coordinated buffs.

If they don't like single big shields based on damage buffing stats, regardless of health level, that can be spammed and spammed then the smaller "SoT"(shield over time) would be the only logical option, and it would work well.

waitwhat

AGREE.

A good move to a major/minor system on damage mitigation shields, keeping in line with the stated goal of standardizing effects (as with snares and weap/spell dmg buffs).

Mystrius_Archaion

waitwhat wrote: »

AGREE.

A good move to a major/minor system on damage mitigation shields, keeping in line with the stated goal of standardizing effects (as with snares and weap/spell dmg buffs).

It's actually different and if they did make shields not stack but left them instant then they would stil lhave the same problem of "dps characters with a huge single shield" which is the real problem they want to fix or they would not have added the cast time to prevent even the first shield from applying instantly.

The true problem is shields are based on damage stats for sorcerers. Other classes have them based on max health like templar's Sun Shield. Sorcerers can get tanky while being a glass cannon. That's not fair to everyone else and makes the class too tempting to play over another.

Tyrobag

That system leaves out Barrier, which is significantly stronger than the other shields. There would need to be at least three stages of shields, one for the smaller shields from armor sets like Imperium as well as Obsidian Shield, one for the average shields like Hardened ward and Annulment, and one for Barrier. The issue is that shields scale in size by quite a bit, and some scale with health rather than magicka. One person may have a 5k magicka shield, another may have a 20k magicka shield. And on top of that some shields cast on other people as well, so if you have two shields cast on you do they prioritize duration or power?

They would have to completely rework the system for shields to in order to standardize them. But if they do that, then we have stamina characters using magicka shields at full power and we're back to square one.

Now they could just do something more simple and say that Annulment and Healing Ward(self targeted part) wont stack with each other or the class shields (other than maybe Obsidian shield, since its small and we wouldn't want it negating other shields). This would eliminate shield stacking without making shields utterly useless, as they are in the current pts.

Tonturri

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

AGREE.

A good move to a major/minor system on damage mitigation shields, keeping in line with the stated goal of standardizing effects (as with snares and weap/spell dmg buffs).

It's actually different and if they did make shields not stack but left them instant then they would stil lhave the same problem of "dps characters with a huge single shield" which is the real problem they want to fix or they would not have added the cast time to prevent even the first shield from applying instantly.

The true problem is shields are based on damage stats for sorcerers. Other classes have them based on max health like templar's Sun Shield. Sorcerers can get tanky while being a glass cannon. That's not fair to everyone else and makes the class too tempting to play over another.

This is incorrect. Nearly every heal works the exact same way - scales off offensive stats. Stamina/weapon damage, magicka/spell damage. Literally every class benefits the same way sorcerers do. Actually, sorcerers are more limited in that regard, as due to their heavy reliance on shields they have to invest MORE into magicka than other classes, which is why you see them running more sustain and less spell damage.

Templars BoL. Nightblades...lot of things. Cloak actually scales infinitely if you think about it. Warden heals, etc. Sorcerers are not alone in this - it's how the entire game is built, except when a skill specifies otherwise (Sun Shield, GDB, etc).

Mystrius_Archaion

Tonturri wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

AGREE.

A good move to a major/minor system on damage mitigation shields, keeping in line with the stated goal of standardizing effects (as with snares and weap/spell dmg buffs).

It's actually different and if they did make shields not stack but left them instant then they would stil lhave the same problem of "dps characters with a huge single shield" which is the real problem they want to fix or they would not have added the cast time to prevent even the first shield from applying instantly.

The true problem is shields are based on damage stats for sorcerers. Other classes have them based on max health like templar's Sun Shield. Sorcerers can get tanky while being a glass cannon. That's not fair to everyone else and makes the class too tempting to play over another.

This is incorrect. Nearly every heal works the exact same way - scales off offensive stats. Stamina/weapon damage, magicka/spell damage. Literally every class benefits the same way sorcerers do. Actually, sorcerers are more limited in that regard, as due to their heavy reliance on shields they have to invest MORE into magicka than other classes, which is why you see them running more sustain and less spell damage.

Templars BoL. Nightblades...lot of things. Cloak actually scales infinitely if you think about it. Warden heals, etc. Sorcerers are not alone in this - it's how the entire game is built, except when a skill specifies otherwise (Sun Shield, GDB, etc).

Healing is an entirely different animal though, it doesn't apply above and beyond your health. You have to survive to be able to heal. Damage shields can effectively turn an 18k health squishy into a 28k health tank easily while healing still leaves them an 18k squishy.

That's why shields are different. They're essentially "higher max health" so you can't burst them down in even one shot.

Massacre_Wurm

Tanky ? You joking, right ? Even in casual overland pve your single shiled almost never lasts for full 6 seconds in TRASH fights.
You can be "tanky" only using SHIELDS STACKING.

And btw NBs still have their 100500 dodge rolls and cloak while being "glass cannon". How is this "fair" ?

Dr.NRG

Increase shield size by 50% and put a 2 second cast time on it or remove cast time and make shields scale with health!

Mystrius_Archaion

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

Tanky ? You joking, right ? Even in casual overland pve your single shiled almost never lasts for full 6 seconds in TRASH fights.
You can be "tanky" only using SHIELDS STACKING.

And btw NBs still have their 100500 dodge rolls and cloak while being "glass cannon". How is this "fair" ?

1) Dodge-rolls for stamina, which is not just nightblades. You're calling a stamina thing a single class thing when sorcerers have just as much dodge-rolling capability as nightblades if you just go "stamsorc". (Edit: Actually a stamsorc would be better than a nightblade because of Critical Surge healing from crits while most nightblade healing is magicka based.)

2) All anybody thinks of tanks in this game is "max health is king" which shields are essentially max health, even more so with this patch. The shielded sorcs literally can take a one-shot hit of 25k with only 18k actual health and survive, something normally only a tank would survive without a damage shield and then would need healing but at least could be healed because they aren't dead. Also, the tank would be missing 25k health while the damage shielded DPS character would only be missing 10k and much easier to get back to full health.

Damage shields do make characters "tanky"(which means "like a tank" and able to withstand damage only a tank should) and are much more powerful than just pure healing because of how they apply before damage.

Dr.NRG

Not really lol;) Honestly, I think the most fair approach would be removing the cast time, code a rule that only alows you to have 1 shield active and increase hardened ward by roughly 20% but still keep it critable. Possibly also reverse the whole resistance idea cause that makes no sense and encourages running sets like fortified or heavy armor which most of us surely would hate.

Savos_Saren

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

Tanky ? You joking, right ? Even in casual overland pve your single shiled almost never lasts for full 6 seconds in TRASH fights.
You can be "tanky" only using SHIELDS STACKING.

And btw NBs still have their 100500 dodge rolls and cloak while being "glass cannon". How is this "fair" ?

It's not fair. That's why ZOS will be going after NBs next. They nerfed Templar heals and DK blocking. Now they're going after Sorc shielding. Next will be NB cloaking. Don't worry... we'll all be on the same level soon.

Mystrius_Archaion

Dr.NRG wrote: »

Increase shield size by 50% and put a 2 second cast time on it or remove cast time and make shields scale with health!

Hindsight being 20/20...they probably should never have made any shields based on magicka in the first place and should have made all of them based on max health, except maybe ones that apply only on allies and never the caster.
We wouldn't be in this mess having this discussion if they had and now they have to "shoehorn it in" to the game we have.

Tonturri

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

AGREE.

A good move to a major/minor system on damage mitigation shields, keeping in line with the stated goal of standardizing effects (as with snares and weap/spell dmg buffs).

It's actually different and if they did make shields not stack but left them instant then they would stil lhave the same problem of "dps characters with a huge single shield" which is the real problem they want to fix or they would not have added the cast time to prevent even the first shield from applying instantly.

The true problem is shields are based on damage stats for sorcerers. Other classes have them based on max health like templar's Sun Shield. Sorcerers can get tanky while being a glass cannon. That's not fair to everyone else and makes the class too tempting to play over another.

This is incorrect. Nearly every heal works the exact same way - scales off offensive stats. Stamina/weapon damage, magicka/spell damage. Literally every class benefits the same way sorcerers do. Actually, sorcerers are more limited in that regard, as due to their heavy reliance on shields they have to invest MORE into magicka than other classes, which is why you see them running more sustain and less spell damage.

Templars BoL. Nightblades...lot of things. Cloak actually scales infinitely if you think about it. Warden heals, etc. Sorcerers are not alone in this - it's how the entire game is built, except when a skill specifies otherwise (Sun Shield, GDB, etc).

Healing is an entirely different animal though, it doesn't apply above and beyond your health. You have to survive to be able to heal. Damage shields can effectively turn an 18k health squishy into a 28k health tank easily while healing still leaves them an 18k squishy.

That's why shields are different. They're essentially "higher max health" so you can't burst them down in even one shot.

I never said they didn't have their difference - just that one of your assertions was wrong. Would you mind coming to a conclusion so that I can answer it all in one go? Based on context I assume you're now saying that you think the mechanical differences between shields and heals need some tuning, but I try not to assume, and I could pick apart what you've already said but I think it'd spiral off without a hard conclusion to tie it together.

Malamar1229

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

How do you vision a light armor mag sorc surviving with one ward when outnumbered given the crit damage.

Wearing impreg is not a solution. Major/ minor system only works if hardened ward gets a major protection buff or something

It's challenge for sure, but better than a 1 sec cast time. In open world I would probably still run impreg (light armor) with impen traits, bloodspawn, and the new magicka bone pirate set. Tri glyphs probs.

I especially don't have an issue in open world using just 1 shield as long as I have mobility. I use 1 on live right now, and it's 10.2k in size. But I use 2 swift jewelry traits so I can kite effectively and get away from zergs….even though the try hard will mount up and chase me.

Malamar1229

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

The problem in PvP (might be) shield stacking, but that's not even the real target of the nerf.

The "problem" in PvE is instacast shields. They've made it pretty clear they don't want DPS toons in trials to hit one button to avoid mechanics.

Not saying I agree with it, but 80 percent of response to the shield cast time has been PvP related, despite the fact that it's barely relevant to the root cause of the nerf (or one of the root causes).

OK so look what I am doing here to the wording of the shield,

"This effect cast time is instant while used in PvP Environments"

Malamar1229

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

AGREE.

A good move to a major/minor system on damage mitigation shields, keeping in line with the stated goal of standardizing effects (as with snares and weap/spell dmg buffs).

It's actually different and if they did make shields not stack but left them instant then they would stil lhave the same problem of "dps characters with a huge single shield" which is the real problem they want to fix or they would not have added the cast time to prevent even the first shield from applying instantly.

The true problem is shields are based on damage stats for sorcerers. Other classes have them based on max health like templar's Sun Shield. Sorcerers can get tanky while being a glass cannon. That's not fair to everyone else and makes the class too tempting to play over another.

Point is null and void in an environment where shields can be crit and penetrated. It will still be a painpoint even if stacking is removed. But at least if it's instant, good players will still prevail.

You assessment of tanky glass canon is wrong. There is a reason why the majority of players are a Nightblade. They flock to easy and rewarding. I have yet to see a streamer in wolfhunter or a competent open worlf player use magicka sorc. It's played by zerglings because how effective wrath is while inside a zerg. Hell, 1 sec cast times wont even impact zerg surfers.

Malamar1229

Dr.NRG wrote: »

Not really lol;) Honestly, I think the most fair approach would be removing the cast time, code a rule that only alows you to have 1 shield active and increase hardened ward by roughly 20% but still keep it critable. Possibly also reverse the whole resistance idea cause that makes no sense and encourages running sets like fortified or heavy armor which most of us surely would hate.

it doesn't matter. I can assure you a magicka sorc running fort brass and impreg for example will be tanky as hell for a few seconds but is going to have NO damage, and NO sustain.
Unlike Heavy stamblades who can equip their mothers underwear and have no sustain issues or dmg issue. I have two stamblades...substantially easier to play.

Mystrius_Archaion

Tonturri wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

AGREE.

A good move to a major/minor system on damage mitigation shields, keeping in line with the stated goal of standardizing effects (as with snares and weap/spell dmg buffs).

It's actually different and if they did make shields not stack but left them instant then they would stil lhave the same problem of "dps characters with a huge single shield" which is the real problem they want to fix or they would not have added the cast time to prevent even the first shield from applying instantly.

The true problem is shields are based on damage stats for sorcerers. Other classes have them based on max health like templar's Sun Shield. Sorcerers can get tanky while being a glass cannon. That's not fair to everyone else and makes the class too tempting to play over another.

This is incorrect. Nearly every heal works the exact same way - scales off offensive stats. Stamina/weapon damage, magicka/spell damage. Literally every class benefits the same way sorcerers do. Actually, sorcerers are more limited in that regard, as due to their heavy reliance on shields they have to invest MORE into magicka than other classes, which is why you see them running more sustain and less spell damage.

Templars BoL. Nightblades...lot of things. Cloak actually scales infinitely if you think about it. Warden heals, etc. Sorcerers are not alone in this - it's how the entire game is built, except when a skill specifies otherwise (Sun Shield, GDB, etc).

Healing is an entirely different animal though, it doesn't apply above and beyond your health. You have to survive to be able to heal. Damage shields can effectively turn an 18k health squishy into a 28k health tank easily while healing still leaves them an 18k squishy.

That's why shields are different. They're essentially "higher max health" so you can't burst them down in even one shot.

I never said they didn't have their difference - just that one of your assertions was wrong. Would you mind coming to a conclusion so that I can answer it all in one go? Based on context I assume you're now saying that you think the mechanical differences between shields and heals need some tuning, but I try not to assume.

You said "nearly every heal works the exact same way" after highlighting in my post where I said "the true problem is shields are based on damage stats for sorcerers" as if you were countering that specific statement with your specific statement.
You were the one incorrect there.

1) Heals do not work the same way EVER. Damage shields can prevent a burst death that can't be healed away after as all heals are after.

2) Both may be based on damage stats but shields essentially turn the character into a tank, which is why they are a problem to be based on damage stats unlike heals which are not a problem because the character is still squishy to burst.

My "assertion" is correct because it relies on your reading my post and already knowing how shields work, even from my previous posts, and how heals work.


The developers are doing the only thing they can with damage shields to bring them in line as a tank tool that dps can't easily use for the same benefit. They're trying to make it too slow to use whenever you need.
A cast time isn't going to be the best answer even if it works a little(but the "uninterruptible" flag won't work), but turning a "big instant shield" into a "SoT/shield over time" would work for this purpose without a cast time.

The developer objective is to still force DPS to "stop standing in stupid"(red AoE) and/or block when needed. And yes, even full magicka characters can block often because block is much cheaper than break free which they still do often enough and block does save magicka characters. In fact, block is better on magicka characters since they aren't even close to the damage reduction caps making it fully useful to them with no wasted effectiveness.

PhoenixGrey

Malamar1229 wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

How do you vision a light armor mag sorc surviving with one ward when outnumbered given the crit damage.

Wearing impreg is not a solution. Major/ minor system only works if hardened ward gets a major protection buff or something

It's challenge for sure, but better than a 1 sec cast time. In open world I would probably still run impreg (light armor) with impen traits, bloodspawn, and the new magicka bone pirate set. Tri glyphs probs.

I especially don't have an issue in open world using just 1 shield as long as I have mobility. I use 1 on live right now, and it's 10.2k in size. But I use 2 swift jewelry traits so I can kite effectively and get away from zergs….even though the try hard will mount up and chase me.

From a purely solo PVP perspective, I think it has been a struggle post summerset with survival and sustain with one ward. I think sorc will definitely not be viable with crits and pen coming into play and inability to roll dodge apart from non existent mobility even if they remove the cast time. I would be glad if someone can convince me otherwise

Dr.NRG

Another idea would be a 100% cost increase if you cast a shield on an alrady active shield. So like that depending on your opponent you gotta make the right decision to either let it fall off then recast or to cast it early to save your butt. The thing is you could time everything with that meanjng using cc to your advantage in this setting. Your shield is down you cc and recast.

Mystrius_Archaion

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

AGREE.

A good move to a major/minor system on damage mitigation shields, keeping in line with the stated goal of standardizing effects (as with snares and weap/spell dmg buffs).

It's actually different and if they did make shields not stack but left them instant then they would stil lhave the same problem of "dps characters with a huge single shield" which is the real problem they want to fix or they would not have added the cast time to prevent even the first shield from applying instantly.

The true problem is shields are based on damage stats for sorcerers. Other classes have them based on max health like templar's Sun Shield. Sorcerers can get tanky while being a glass cannon. That's not fair to everyone else and makes the class too tempting to play over another.

Point is null and void in an environment where shields can be crit and penetrated. It will still be a painpoint even if stacking is removed. But at least if it's instant, good players will still prevail.

You assessment of tanky glass canon is wrong. There is a reason why the majority of players are a Nightblade. They flock to easy and rewarding. I have yet to see a streamer in wolfhunter or a competent open worlf player use magicka sorc. It's played by zerglings because how effective wrath is while inside a zerg. Hell, 1 sec cast times wont even impact zerg surfers.

I don't care.

I just see the logic of where ZOS is developing from. You're not supposed to have both maximized offense and really good defense, which was how magicka sorcerers were before with shields.

The shield changes are both to make them better for tanks and everyone in pve and make them less valuable for dps and less able to be used as dps and, yes, to encourage everyone to use impenetrable trait in pvp instead of using a coding loophole to completely negate crits so that nobody builds for any amount of crit in pvp because of the prevalence of impenetrable and completely immune shields everywhere. Even a small shield negates an entire crit value while base damage goes past the shield due to the crit never happening. They had to make shields crittable.

It's all about fairness.

Minno

Dr.NRG wrote: »

Another idea would be a 100% cost increase if you cast a shield on an alrady active shield. So like that depending on your opponent you gotta make the right decision to either let it fall off then recast or to cast it early to save your butt. The thing is you could time everything with that meanjng using cc to your advantage in this setting. Your shield is down you cc and recast.

Back in the day, certain shields turned off your mag Regen for the duration. But then again they lasted alot longer, was full value, and everyone had soft caps so the DMG wasn't the power creep blob we have today.

Minalan

Denial - This nerf has got to be a joke...
Anger - Stupid Wrobel!!!!
Bargaining - Please remove the cast time Wrobel, and we'll be sort of okay with maybe one of the OP defense sets!
Depression - RIP Sorc :sad:
Acceptance - Unsubscribe, uninstall, stop giving ZOS money, and play other cool, fun stuff.

Where are you right now @Malamar1229 ?

katorga

Problem is not shield itself. Problem is shields stacking.

Hundreds of "op" build videos over the years for every fotm class/build, most of them not sorc, so no shield stacking was actually never a problem. Shields, heals, bleeds, heavy armor, swift, blocking, cloak, dodge, un-dodge-able, snipe, jesus beam, all constantly complained about, none of them op.

Keeping the nerf churn rolling generates in game revenue.