In response to Dev Post, Would you like the idea of Shield over times rather than cast times?

likecats

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know we've been monitoring the feedback on this thread and elsewhere on the forums. Clearly there's a lot of concern around the impact of adding a cast time to Conjured Ward and Annulment.

First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios.

The addition of a cast time makes that choice between damage output and survivability more deliberate and strategic. However, as many of you have pointed out, there are several potential issues with this solution. We identified many of these risks prior to PTS, and we're actively monitoring feedback from the community, Class Reps, and PTS testers.

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2. We'll also be meeting with the Class Reps next week to discuss the changes.

In the meantime, we encourage you to continue experimenting, evaluating, and providing feedback.

Shields with cast-time is a terrible idea. The game is far too fast-paced for a 1 second cast-time on shields, especially in pvp.

Initially I was hoping that ZOS would roll back on this change completely, however after reading this post I feel that ZOS do have a point in what they're saying.
Ultimately, like it or not, ZOS will likely nerf shields some how to make it behave more 'in line with other abilities', best we can hope for is a viable alternative to the current abomination in the form of cast times.

So why not remove the cast-time, and introduce a shield overtime for ward, and annulment.

The ability would function something like this:

- Cast 5 mini-shields over [x] seconds lasting [y] seconds in total from start of cast.
- Suggested [x] = 1.5, Suggested [y] = 7.5
- All mini-shields do not 'disappear' on recast, rather only the mini-shields that got destroyed get regenerated, like a first in first out system.
- [OPTIONAL IDEA for Ward] you get magicka regen for each unharmed mini-shield on expiration.


This would make shields more inline with other abilities as you won't be able to immediately throw 15k worth of health as a clutch, and would include some element of preplanning the appropriate time to cast shields. Anticipating an incap? Gotta shield at least 1.5 seconds prior to the deal.
This would also somewhat solve the issue with shield stacking which is you becoming more or less immune to damage in execute phase. This change will punish players who fall down to execute range with death. Now if someone has high enough dps, they will be able to damage your health whatsoever.


Healing ward will always be available as a burst heal, so I think with this change ZOS will achieve what they want without gutting a class, and nerfing sooo many different playstyles on different magicka classes.

So what do you guys think of this idea?

rafaelcsmaia

Other

Make shields great again period.

The dev comment is absurd in the way he says:

We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting.

Yet EVERY FRIGGING HEAL in the game scales with your offensive stats.

Talk about sense, geez

eso_nya

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Make shields great again period.

The dev comment is absurd in the way he says:

We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting.

Yet EVERY FRIGGING HEAL in the game scales with your offensive stats.

Talk about sense, geez

If u want shields to act like heals, the tooltip would read: "Gain a damage shield equal to the amount of your missing health".

fred4

How about we ignore this ZOS clown. I'd be damn curious to hear Gilliam the Rogue try and justify this change instead.

Kanar

The medium armor corollary to shields is roll dodge. While rolling, MA user cannot use skills and even for a second after standing up from the roll. Considered in this light, the cast time for shields makes perfect sense. They are each slightly different - the lost action time is before the damage mitigation instead of during, shields have limited HP but protect from AoE while roll dodge does not - so each type of mitigation preserves a unique flavor.

OPs suggestion doesn't bring shields in-line with rolling in terms of DPS loss.

DeadlyRecluse

Honestly, while I don't think shields need a cast time, I dislike "exceptions to the rule" fixes. Making it a cast time ability but being uninterruptible is a mess in terms of rule consistency.

IAVITNI

Like general idea, but different suggested values.

Kanar wrote: »

The medium armor corollary to shields is roll dodge. While rolling, MA user cannot use skills and even for a second after standing up from the roll. Considered in this light, the cast time for shields makes perfect sense. They are each slightly different - the lost action time is before the damage mitigation instead of during, shields have limited HP but protect from AoE while roll dodge does not - so each type of mitigation preserves a unique flavor.

OPs suggestion doesn't bring shields in-line with rolling in terms of DPS loss.

Ok, so what is the magicka alternative to Vigor? Rally?

mikemacon

IAVITNI wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

The medium armor corollary to shields is roll dodge. While rolling, MA user cannot use skills and even for a second after standing up from the roll. Considered in this light, the cast time for shields makes perfect sense. They are each slightly different - the lost action time is before the damage mitigation instead of during, shields have limited HP but protect from AoE while roll dodge does not - so each type of mitigation preserves a unique flavor.

OPs suggestion doesn't bring shields in-line with rolling in terms of DPS loss.

Ok, so what is the magicka alternative to Vigor? Rally?

Death, evidently.

Apparently the intern at ZOS who came up with the shield nerf idea either (a) doesn't play magsorcs, and/or (b) was "kilt by de sorkesesss" in PvP and is still butthurt about it.

Kanar

IAVITNI wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

The medium armor corollary to shields is roll dodge. While rolling, MA user cannot use skills and even for a second after standing up from the roll. Considered in this light, the cast time for shields makes perfect sense. They are each slightly different - the lost action time is before the damage mitigation instead of during, shields have limited HP but protect from AoE while roll dodge does not - so each type of mitigation preserves a unique flavor.

OPs suggestion doesn't bring shields in-line with rolling in terms of DPS loss.

Ok, so what is the magicka alternative to Vigor? Rally?

Range and class heals that scale with magicka. Melee magicka gets the short end as usual, but do have their class heals/utility and also will be benefitting from the stam characters' vigor. But since your question is so vague (what content? group or solo?) it's really impossible to answer.

mr_wazzabi

IAVITNI wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

The medium armor corollary to shields is roll dodge. While rolling, MA user cannot use skills and even for a second after standing up from the roll. Considered in this light, the cast time for shields makes perfect sense. They are each slightly different - the lost action time is before the damage mitigation instead of during, shields have limited HP but protect from AoE while roll dodge does not - so each type of mitigation preserves a unique flavor.

OPs suggestion doesn't bring shields in-line with rolling in terms of DPS loss.

Ok, so what is the magicka alternative to Vigor? Rally?

Breath of life heals more reliably than rally's "wait till it's about to end or burst heal is weak" bs.

Vigor is a strong heal, but it doesn't take you out of execute range like a strong burst heal. If I get taken to execute range, vigor won't stop endless fury from proccing, but something like breath of life will.

Minno

Other

I like the way the psijic order shield operates. Get a free shield but have to use block with a duration refresh every x seconds.

Would be cool to see sorcs receive a similar mechanic so they can free up that skill for a non-pte heal or other defense mechanic for a more fluid combat experience.

But that's my opinion coming from a templar, Id love to see a sorcs response to that.

Jaimeh

Dislike this idea.

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote:

If we decide to make significant changes to the abilities, those changes would not appear until at least PTS 3. However, we agree Conjured Ward and Annulment are too easy to interrupt in PvP, so we'll be making both spells immune to interrupts for PTS 2

@ZOS_RobGarrett The interrupt was only relevant for PvP anyway, PvE-ers are still in a bad place. The cast time will not only be problematic because it will make content more dangerous, but because it will make playstyle a lot less fluid. Combat for magicka users will be very clanky. Suddenly the prospect of having finally a new 4-man trial arena seems less fun and exciting and more dreadful. Please reconsider this change on behalf of the PvE community... increase the cost, reduce the effectiveness, introduce a so-called 'shield-fatigue', but please reconsider the cast time.

idk

Before reading that response I would have bet good money Zos wouldn’t revert the cast time.

It’s about EGO and nothing more. They think they know this gms well because they’re the designers yet they they struggle to play the game demonstrating their lack of actual knowledge in this matter

They have to act as thought they know better at the detriment of the game because of EGO.

Biro123

Like general idea, but different suggested values.

I've suggested this before, but I think one of them still needs to be a big, instant shield for PVE. Probably harness since its the one available to all light wearers.

oxygen_thief

Dislike this idea.

have you ever been in a focus of a group in battlegrounds? full hardened ward melts instantly with a decent part of your health bar but it gives you a moment to roll dodge or streak away. there is no difference between cast-time and overtime or any other time-shields because under decent pressure in your light armor you will be swatted like a fly. there is no such a problem as shields stacking there is problem with CP system wich allows to make unbalanced builds.

Moloch1514

Other

Just add the cast time to Battle Spirit so PvE can avoid yet another PvP nerf.

MacCait

I haven't voted either way on this. I think the cast time is a terrible idea though.

However I think it's good the Dev has responded, thrown some water on the fire, and has let the community know that they are considering the feedback and actively considering an alternative.

Bashing them isn't going to help anyone and isn't constructive.

DeadlyRecluse

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Just add the cast time to Battle Spirit so PvE can avoid yet another PvP nerf.

It's been called as, in part, a direct nerf to the general strategy of having all mag DPS shield through heavy hitting mechanics.

So don't hold your breath for that particular change.

Emma_Overload

Like general idea, but different suggested values.

I've been thinking about this idea, too. It could be like Vigor for shields: 25K shields (50K in PvE) spread out over 5 seconds, meaning you'd get 5K per second in PvP and 10K per second in PvE.

IAVITNI

Like general idea, but different suggested values.

Kanar wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

The medium armor corollary to shields is roll dodge. While rolling, MA user cannot use skills and even for a second after standing up from the roll. Considered in this light, the cast time for shields makes perfect sense. They are each slightly different - the lost action time is before the damage mitigation instead of during, shields have limited HP but protect from AoE while roll dodge does not - so each type of mitigation preserves a unique flavor.

OPs suggestion doesn't bring shields in-line with rolling in terms of DPS loss.

Ok, so what is the magicka alternative to Vigor? Rally?

Range and class heals that scale with magicka. Melee magicka gets the short end as usual, but do have their class heals/utility and also will be benefitting from the stam characters' vigor. But since your question is so vague (what content? group or solo?) it's really impossible to answer.

What class heals does a sorc have and how will it remain at range with snares, swift and gap closers?

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

The medium armor corollary to shields is roll dodge. While rolling, MA user cannot use skills and even for a second after standing up from the roll. Considered in this light, the cast time for shields makes perfect sense. They are each slightly different - the lost action time is before the damage mitigation instead of during, shields have limited HP but protect from AoE while roll dodge does not - so each type of mitigation preserves a unique flavor.

OPs suggestion doesn't bring shields in-line with rolling in terms of DPS loss.

Ok, so what is the magicka alternative to Vigor? Rally?

Breath of life heals more reliably than rally's "wait till it's about to end or burst heal is weak" bs.

Vigor is a strong heal, but it doesn't take you out of execute range like a strong burst heal. If I get taken to execute range, vigor won't stop endless fury from proccing, but something like breath of life will.

And what about people that aren't magplars?

Vigor works the same way as shields if pre-cast btw. The only big differences are seen when Major Defile is present or if cast reactively. But than at least you still have Rally to back that up along with Roll Dodge and Block not translating to instant death on next CC.

What will a magblade do? Cloak? Isn't Cloak spam a universally accepted problem?
What about magsorcs? Are the going to Streak away while they are gap closed and snared to death? Maybe they should run a heal that is almost guaranteed to die since it can't be protected and it costs 2 slots to actually use.
This also forces DKs back into heavy. They won't be as effective in light without a reliable shield.
Wardens are probably going to be forced into heavy too. They are tankier than most but they still rely on shields to survive burst.

The change is fine but people are acting like every mag class has a valid alternative. They don't. That's the real issue. Someone said to slot BlackRose resto, Ward, Combat Prayer and Mutagen. So now Mag has to give up a weapon slot AND 3 skill slots to do what is universally available to all stamina classes in Vigor and Rally alone?

IF ZoS is going to tear down an entire play style, they need to provide alternatives. They don't. They just ruin entire play styles and wait 4 patches to make that OP. ZoS leadership is trash.

craftycarper73

Easiest way to hurt the people who come up with these shocking idea's are with your wallet.

Dont sub/re-sub, dont buy crown store items, dont buy dlc.

The message will hit home, my sub ended last night, and that is the way it is staying until there is some clarity on what is happening, because it seems the devs dont know what there doing.

Im not quitting, im just voting with my wallet.

ruikkarikun

Other

Remove the cast time.

Dashmatt

Well, at least making them immune to interrupts lets you have a conversation about cast times in PvP. They’d have been dead skills otherwise, no matter what other changes were made.

My personal observation about the problem with shields in PvP: they all fully stack. The result is that you can have a rotation that alternates between shields and keeps them both active, with abilities and light attacks in between. Adding a cast time certainly addresses this, but it also hurts anyone who only used a single shield. I don’t think anyone felt that a Sorc spamming Hardened Ward was OP... right? Not allowing shields to stack would have been a fine change.

I don’t know what to say about PVE. I rarely enter dungeons or trials, but when I do it feels like a DPS race while avoiding 1-shots. If there was actually a reason to build a durable character, maybe shields wouldn’t be so popular.

Lylith

Other

how about fixing things that ARE broken and stop monkeying around with things that aren't?

ak_pvp

Other

Shield over time would be weak too. Each stack would run out after 6s, and mag doesn't have as roll or good heavy sets to mix it with, they would be bursted to death..

Cast time only if recasting the same shield again when it is already up. If it has ran out, both time or shield health, it can be recasted like normal.
In PvP 2 shields can still be stacked, so sorcs will be able to do it fine, but will have to alternate, this means that the timing will have to be better, so no harness spam. And for PvE, no one runs 2 shields, so it'll be harder to keep up for free.

Soris

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Make shields great again period.

The dev comment is absurd in the way he says:

We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting.

Yet EVERY FRIGGING HEAL in the game scales with your offensive stats.

Talk about sense, geez

Agree to making shields great again.
For the bolded part however, though it is true heals scales off your offensive stats, it still requires you to invest heavily into "defensive stats" as well. Such as healing done/taken, resistances, block/dodge etc.

For example, stats of a templar in heavy armor block casting heals =/= stats of a light armored shield spamming sorc.

A sorc can literally stack everyting in max damage, while a heal user magplar/dk or any stam class can not.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

I like the fact that the devs are open to alternatives in this situation. Any unbiased player knew that the shield stack combined with the spillover bug made shields way out of balance. Obviously as the "shield class" sorcs are the face of this issue.

ZOS tipped the scales too far on this change and i think that they realise it.

The easiest fix to the stack is to make it so Harness/Dampen Magicka cannot stack with Class shields. You instantly break the 3 shield stack which is the issue that sorcs are the face of (strongest shields and you're everywhere in Cyrodiil like glowing egged gnats spamming fury/wrath).

Keep critting on shields in, along with resistances applying before the shield is hit and just break the stack.

Give instant cast back to the shields but make it so they can't be used together. Simple solution that stops this affecting PvE and hits PvP in the right way.

NyassaV

REMOVE CASTS TIMES FROM !@#$%^& EVERYTHING

jcm2606

Lylith wrote: »

how about fixing things that ARE broken and stop monkeying around with things that aren't?

This. And this a million times more.