A possible and harmless way for making shields stacking more balanced in PVP

Universe

Hello,
The changes to damage shields in the recent PTS patch are extremely bad for magicka Sorcerer.
The changes are bad for other classes and builds as well(but not as bad as for magicka Sorcerer).

The cast time of shields and critical damage to shields needs to be reverted before Update 20 Murkmire goes live.
Those 2 changes makes magicka Sorcerer extremely weak in PVP to the point it's unplayable, no more shield stacking and no more casting of a shield when getting into trouble.
The critical damage will eat through that hard to cast shield/s quickly.
The cast time will make stacking shields very hard to near impossible.
Furthermore, the cast time of damage shields nerfs Sorcerer dps and active defense in PVE too.

I already posted the following feedback in the official PTS Sorcerer feedback discussion, but I wanted to share my view about this with more players.
Since I will probably not convince @ZOS_Wrobel to not nerf damage shields, I was thinking of how it will be possible to nerf/adjust damage shields so they could still be useful but not useless.
I reached the conclusion that shield stacking in PVP is the main issue with damage shields.
A possible and harmless way/solution for making shields stacking more balanced in PVP may be the following:
Shields Fatigue - While in PVP area you may receive the following:
"Shields fatigue": While shield stacking is applied, there is 10% chance to receive shields fatigue for 4 seconds.
While this debuff is active a player can bash the player who have this debuff and stun him for 3 seconds.
This also applies minor defile to the stunned player for 6 seconds, reducing his healing taken by 15%.

*This will apply a debuff that potentially will result in the shield stacker being stunned after some time.
The shield stacking in PVP will be a bit less powerful while damage shields won't be nerfed in PVE.
There will be a special sign above the player who has this debuff, so the opponent will know when it is the right time to bash.
A shield with bash/sword icon, the sign will be above the player very much like the ability to detect invisible enemies sign.


I don't claim it is the best solution, but I find the above solution as a potential working solution which will please all parties, non magicka users and magicka users.
Please share your thoughts about this possible solution

visionality

Wrong thinking, @Universe. ZOS is not trying to prevent shield stacking in PVP, they try to get rid of magsorcs in PVP (and possibly in the whole game, considering the dps-gap to magblades in PVE).

Instant shield stacking is still available for DKs and templars, their class shields have no casttime. Magblades are a bit worse off, but they can cloak in tight situations and cast a light armor shield uninterrupted while being invisible (casting a light armor shield does not break stealth, only casting a sorcerer ward does). Add a resto staff and insta-cast healing ward, and you have two shields stacked.

Universe

visionality wrote: »

Wrong thinking, @Universe. ZOS is not trying to prevent shield stacking in PVP, they try to get rid of magsorcs in PVP (and possibly in the whole game, considering the dps-gap to magblades in PVE).

Instant shield stacking is still available for DKs and templars, their class shields have no casttime. Magblades are a bit worse off, but they can cloak in tight situations and cast a light armor shield uninterrupted while being invisible (casting a light armor shield does not break stealth, only casting a sorcerer ward does). Add a resto staff and insta-cast healing ward, and you have two shields stacked.

I was referring to the affected damage shields.
Annulment/Harness magicka/Dampen Magic is also affected by the 1 second cast time.
I don't believe ZOS is trying to remove magicka sorcerers from PVP or the all game, they are trying to balance the sorcerer but they are doing it wrong.

Bergzorn

I wouldn't be surprised if the crit change is done for PvP balancing (obviously) and the purpose of the cast time is solely added to make them less attractive for DD in PvE. ZOS just pulled a typical ZOS and didn't think things through.

I don't want to believe that they are going this way for light armor users in PvP on purpose.

VaranisArano

Keep in mind that ZOS also wants to nerf damage shields in PVE. The shield crits and penetration changes probably would have been sufficient for PVP. The cast,time changes are a PVE nerf because ZOS says damage shields make healers useless.

Universe

VaranisArano wrote: »

Keep in mind that ZOS also wants to nerf damage shields in PVE. The shield crits and penetration changes probably would have been sufficient for PVP. The cast,time changes are a PVE nerf because ZOS says damage shields make healers useless.

Yes I'm aware.
Though I disagree.
Healers are not useless in PVE due to damage shields.
It is due to the fact that many dungeon/trial mechanics are one shot/extremely high damage at once and not damage over time.
The healers can do very little or nothing at all many times.

BigBadVolk

They made this change because shields are the best counter to Soldier of Anguish set
But tbh the easiest change would have been what they did with olorime and spc: a minor major system for Shields too, would prolly prevent three shields at the same time or four if you in a group with barrier and five if you have psijic skilline

VaranisArano

Universe wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Keep in mind that ZOS also wants to nerf damage shields in PVE. The shield crits and penetration changes probably would have been sufficient for PVP. The cast,time changes are a PVE nerf because ZOS says damage shields make healers useless.

Yes I'm aware.
Though I disagree.
Healers are not useless in PVE due to damage shields.
It is due to the fact that many dungeon/trial mechanics are one shot/extremely high damage at once and not damage over time.
The healers can do very little or nothing at all many times.

Yes, the community as a whole disagreed when ZOS said that.

It clearly didn't stop ZOS from nerfing damage shields in PVE.

DeadlyRecluse

Universe wrote: »

Shields Fatigue - While in PVP area you may receive the following:
"Shields fatigue": While shield stacking is applied, there is 10% chance to receive shields fatigue for 4 seconds.
While this debuff is active a player can bash the player who have this debuff and stun him for 3 seconds.
This also applies minor defile to the stunned player for 6 seconds, reducing his healing taken by 15%.

An RNG based possible penalty that just gives a free CC (when any decent player is already CCing their opponent) and debuffs the shield stacker with a debuff that doesn't impact shields?

Don't get me wrong, the cast time on shields is hilariously bad and needs to be reverted, but this is a clunky non-nerf alternative, at best.

ExcaliburESO

Basically u mean that mag sorcs will be new dks? well thats good finnaly..

Universe

BigBadVolk wrote: »

They made this change because shields are the best counter to Soldier of Anguish set
But tbh the easiest change would have been what they did with olorime and spc: a minor major system for Shields too, would prolly prevent three shields at the same time or four if you in a group with barrier and five if you have psijic skilline

I believe Shield stacking should be allowed, but there should be a major counter to make the player unable to actively attack and move.
So my solution may stop the player from actively shielding and attacking non stop.

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Shields Fatigue - While in PVP area you may receive the following:
"Shields fatigue": While shield stacking is applied, there is 10% chance to receive shields fatigue for 4 seconds.
While this debuff is active a player can bash the player who have this debuff and stun him for 3 seconds.
This also applies minor defile to the stunned player for 6 seconds, reducing his healing taken by 15%.

An RNG based possible penalty that just gives a free CC (when any decent player is already CCing their opponent) and debuffs the shield stacker with a debuff that doesn't impact shields?

Don't get me wrong, the cast time on shields is hilariously bad and needs to be reverted, but this is a clunky non-nerf alternative, at best.

RNG based penalty can stop the shield stacking from being too frequent.
The debuff will apply to healing taken and will go through the shields.
The chance to be stunned can be increased to make it more consistent, the 10% chance is merely the first value I suggest(can be adjusted later if it is not good enough).

DeadlyRecluse

Universe wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Shields Fatigue - While in PVP area you may receive the following:
"Shields fatigue": While shield stacking is applied, there is 10% chance to receive shields fatigue for 4 seconds.
While this debuff is active a player can bash the player who have this debuff and stun him for 3 seconds.
This also applies minor defile to the stunned player for 6 seconds, reducing his healing taken by 15%.

An RNG based possible penalty that just gives a free CC (when any decent player is already CCing their opponent) and debuffs the shield stacker with a debuff that doesn't impact shields?

Don't get me wrong, the cast time on shields is hilariously bad and needs to be reverted, but this is a clunky non-nerf alternative, at best.

RNG based penalty can stop the shield stacking from being too frequent.
The debuff will apply to healing taken and will go through the shields.
The chance to be stunned can be increased to make it more consistent, the 10% chance is merely the first value I suggest(can be adjusted later if it is not good enough).

I don't like RNG being part of any fatigue mechanic. It's lazy, inconsistent by design, and frustrating.

But my bigger issue is that you are suggesting two real components to the resulting debuff:

1. A CC window. This is trivial. If you aren't getting CCed on cooldown (or timed up with burst windows) anyway, you are fighting a potato. Giving a free CC window just isn't valuable, UNLESS it overrides CC immunity, and that would be insane and not in keeping with the core CC mechanic of the game.
2. Minor defile....in a scenario where the player getting defiled is depending on shields, not healing. You see why I don't buy this as a penalty here? It would have some impact, but it doesn't actually change the performance of the (supposedly) unwanted behavior--shield stacking.

Universe

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Shields Fatigue - While in PVP area you may receive the following:
"Shields fatigue": While shield stacking is applied, there is 10% chance to receive shields fatigue for 4 seconds.
While this debuff is active a player can bash the player who have this debuff and stun him for 3 seconds.
This also applies minor defile to the stunned player for 6 seconds, reducing his healing taken by 15%.

An RNG based possible penalty that just gives a free CC (when any decent player is already CCing their opponent) and debuffs the shield stacker with a debuff that doesn't impact shields?

Don't get me wrong, the cast time on shields is hilariously bad and needs to be reverted, but this is a clunky non-nerf alternative, at best.

RNG based penalty can stop the shield stacking from being too frequent.
The debuff will apply to healing taken and will go through the shields.
The chance to be stunned can be increased to make it more consistent, the 10% chance is merely the first value I suggest(can be adjusted later if it is not good enough).

I don't like RNG being part of any fatigue mechanic. It's lazy, inconsistent by design, and frustrating.

But my bigger issue is that you are suggesting two real components to the resulting debuff:

1. A CC window. This is trivial. If you aren't getting CCed on cooldown (or timed up with burst windows) anyway, you are fighting a potato. Giving a free CC window just isn't valuable, UNLESS it overrides CC immunity, and that would be insane and not in keeping with the core CC mechanic of the game.
2. Minor defile....in a scenario where the player getting defiled is depending on shields, not healing. You see why I don't buy this as a penalty here? It would have some impact, but it doesn't actually change the performance of the (supposedly) unwanted behavior--shield stacking.

It's not a huge nerf.
It is merely a counter play which will result in less time shield stacking or having control over the character.
The chance to be stunned and receive minor defile at any given time due to shield stacking can reduce the effectiveness of shield stacking.

DeadlyRecluse

Universe wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Shields Fatigue - While in PVP area you may receive the following:
"Shields fatigue": While shield stacking is applied, there is 10% chance to receive shields fatigue for 4 seconds.
While this debuff is active a player can bash the player who have this debuff and stun him for 3 seconds.
This also applies minor defile to the stunned player for 6 seconds, reducing his healing taken by 15%.

An RNG based possible penalty that just gives a free CC (when any decent player is already CCing their opponent) and debuffs the shield stacker with a debuff that doesn't impact shields?

Don't get me wrong, the cast time on shields is hilariously bad and needs to be reverted, but this is a clunky non-nerf alternative, at best.

RNG based penalty can stop the shield stacking from being too frequent.
The debuff will apply to healing taken and will go through the shields.
The chance to be stunned can be increased to make it more consistent, the 10% chance is merely the first value I suggest(can be adjusted later if it is not good enough).

I don't like RNG being part of any fatigue mechanic. It's lazy, inconsistent by design, and frustrating.

But my bigger issue is that you are suggesting two real components to the resulting debuff:

1. A CC window. This is trivial. If you aren't getting CCed on cooldown (or timed up with burst windows) anyway, you are fighting a potato. Giving a free CC window just isn't valuable, UNLESS it overrides CC immunity, and that would be insane and not in keeping with the core CC mechanic of the game.
2. Minor defile....in a scenario where the player getting defiled is depending on shields, not healing. You see why I don't buy this as a penalty here? It would have some impact, but it doesn't actually change the performance of the (supposedly) unwanted behavior--shield stacking.

It's not a huge nerf.
It is merely a counter play which will result in less time shield stacking or having control over the character.
The chance to be stunned and receive minor defile at any given time due to shield stacking can reduce the effectiveness of shield stacking.

A chance to be stunned doesn't reduce the effectiveness of shield stacking. You already have the chance to be stunned. Period.

A chance to receive minor defile doesn't reduce the effectiveness of shield stacking. Defile literally doesn't effect shield stacking.

Don't get me wrong, I like the root of your idea, pushing an alternative to the terribad cast-time. But if you think they are going to back off of cast time/channels and switch instead to a balance change that literally doesn't impact shield stacking, I don't buy it.

Something like the same idea, but you get a debuff that reduces the strengths of shields if you cast more than one on top of another instead of defile would make more sense. (and would actually "]reduce the effectiveness of shield stacking.")

Universe

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Shields Fatigue - While in PVP area you may receive the following:
"Shields fatigue": While shield stacking is applied, there is 10% chance to receive shields fatigue for 4 seconds.
While this debuff is active a player can bash the player who have this debuff and stun him for 3 seconds.
This also applies minor defile to the stunned player for 6 seconds, reducing his healing taken by 15%.

An RNG based possible penalty that just gives a free CC (when any decent player is already CCing their opponent) and debuffs the shield stacker with a debuff that doesn't impact shields?

Don't get me wrong, the cast time on shields is hilariously bad and needs to be reverted, but this is a clunky non-nerf alternative, at best.

RNG based penalty can stop the shield stacking from being too frequent.
The debuff will apply to healing taken and will go through the shields.
The chance to be stunned can be increased to make it more consistent, the 10% chance is merely the first value I suggest(can be adjusted later if it is not good enough).

I don't like RNG being part of any fatigue mechanic. It's lazy, inconsistent by design, and frustrating.

But my bigger issue is that you are suggesting two real components to the resulting debuff:

1. A CC window. This is trivial. If you aren't getting CCed on cooldown (or timed up with burst windows) anyway, you are fighting a potato. Giving a free CC window just isn't valuable, UNLESS it overrides CC immunity, and that would be insane and not in keeping with the core CC mechanic of the game.
2. Minor defile....in a scenario where the player getting defiled is depending on shields, not healing. You see why I don't buy this as a penalty here? It would have some impact, but it doesn't actually change the performance of the (supposedly) unwanted behavior--shield stacking.

It's not a huge nerf.
It is merely a counter play which will result in less time shield stacking or having control over the character.
The chance to be stunned and receive minor defile at any given time due to shield stacking can reduce the effectiveness of shield stacking.

A chance to be stunned doesn't reduce the effectiveness of shield stacking. You already have the chance to be stunned. Period.

A chance to receive minor defile doesn't reduce the effectiveness of shield stacking. Defile literally doesn't effect shield stacking.

Don't get me wrong, I like the root of your idea, pushing an alternative to the terribad cast-time. But if you think they are going to back off of cast time/channels and switch instead to a balance change that literally doesn't impact shield stacking, I don't buy it.

Something like the same idea, but you get a debuff that reduces the strengths of shields if you cast more than one on top of another instead of defile would make more sense. (and would actually "]reduce the effectiveness of shield stacking.")

On paper it doesn't sound very convincing.
But actually fighting and being stunned many more times than the opponent can change the result of the battle.
For example, 3 minutes battle:
Current: The opponent stun the sorcerer 4-5 seconds after the CC immunity fades off(due to sustain changes and situational awareness).
When my solution will be implemented: The opponent stun the sorcerer with normal CC abilities and 4-5 seconds after the CC immunity fades off and also when "Shields Fatigue" is being applied.
This will result in the sorcerer being stunned much more frequently. Being stunned reduces the effectiveness in battle while maintaining the current shields strength.

Sylosi

Universe wrote: »

The cast time of shields and critical damage to shields needs to be reverted before Update 20 Murkmire goes live.

The cast time is indeed a bad change, there are other ways they could have gone about it, however not being able to crit shields has always been a poor design and is part of what contributes to how imbalanced shields are.

Really in a game it should be pretty simple, if you build for attack then that means you should sacrifice defence, shields are the complete opposite to that, they scale and sustain off the same resource you want for attack, then on top of that because they are uncritable it means you can get away with much lower resistances, because resistances are only really an issue if people/mobs get through your shields, so again this allows you to build for a bare minimum of defence yet retain an actual level of defence completely disproportionate to that low level of investment in defence. (same reason stamblades are broken OP in Cyrodil, just different mechanics - stealth, shadow image, endless dodge rolls, passive dodge, etc)

Guppet

This is far over complex. The only people that wold know how to take advantage of it are skilled pvpers. They don’t struggle with sorcs anyway.

Sorcs would still stomp noobs. I’m guessing that is what you want.

Anything needs to be as simple as possible. So people understand it and so it doesn’t overly tax the system.

Can crit them, simple
They use your mitigation, simple.

Making them a buff so you can’t stack or just making them non stacking, simple.

Your solution, over complex. Doesn’t even sort the main issues.

Remember they do want to impact pve as well. Them mobs are not going to exploit your vulnerability.

Universe

Guppet wrote: »

This is far over complex. The only people that wold know how to take advantage of it are skilled pvpers. They don’t struggle with sorcs anyway.

Sorcs would still stomp noobs. I’m guessing that is what you want.

Anything needs to be as simple as possible. So people understand it and so it doesn’t overly tax the system.

Can crit them, simple
They use your mitigation, simple.

Making them a buff so you can’t stack or just making them non stacking, simple.

Your solution, over complex. Doesn’t even sort the main issues.

Remember they do want to impact pve as well. Them mobs are not going to exploit your vulnerability.

There will be a special sign above the player who has this debuff, so the opponent will know when it is the right time to bash.
A shield with bash/sword icon, the sign will be above the player very much like the ability to detect invisible enemies(which also has this type of sign above the player).
As for PVE, I don't think there is a need to nerf the shields in PVE.

fatmanatcomp

More cc is just what we need in the world of broken cc

Universe

fatmanatcomp wrote: »

More cc is just what we need in the world of broken cc

Quote from PTS patch notes:
"Refactored the Break Free ability and Crowd Control Immunity buff to increase the consistency and reliability of these mechanics."

Did you encounter the same CC issues even after their recent supposed fix ?

Ozazz

I appreciate you being innovative trying to find a solution to make the modern changes a little better to what isn't even a problem, but if any of these nerfs make it live from pts im just going to walk from this game,
I've had enough. The developers are too biased for my taste and absolutely have no regard for what was a skilled combat system in the origins of this game. @Universe

fatmanatcomp

I find it hard to answer that question , as I do not know if I can’t break cc because it’s broken or because the Regen bug is killing me and somewhere my stamina is resting in an endless pool of leaked stamina.

Universe

Ozazz wrote: »

I appreciate you being innovative trying to find a solution to make the modern changes a little better to what isn't even a problem, but if any of these nerfs make it live from pts im just going to walk from this game,
I've had enough. The developers are too biased for my taste and absolutely have no regard for what was a skilled combat system in the origins of this game. @Universe

Hopefully, the developers will revert the changes even before Update 20 will go live.
It is rare but I did notice they reverted some PTS changes in the past.
My solution is less severe than what the developers implemented in PTS, so if they decide to go with my solution(1 in a million chance ) , I will not consider it total disaster.
One example of a change they reverted in Wolfhunter PTS:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Templar

• Restoring Light

• Rune Focus: Increased the duration of this ability and its morphs to 20 seconds from 18 seconds, and reverted the cost increase to this ability and its morphs.

pizzaow

Why not make it work like dodge roll?... after you cast a shield the cost of another shield increases 50% for a brief cooldown.

Universe

pizzaow wrote: »

Why not make it work like dodge roll?... after you cast a shield the cost of another shield increases 50% for a brief cooldown.

This will make magicka sorcerer magicka sustain even worse.
It will significantly increase the cost to actively use 2 or more shields.
This will make shield stacking not worth it.
The only way to make it viable is to drop as much spell damage/magicka damage as possible to increase magicka recovery.
The solution you propose is overkill, especially post Morrowind sustain changes.

Universe

fatmanatcomp wrote: »

I find it hard to answer that question , as I do not know if I can’t break cc because it’s broken or because the Regen bug is killing me and somewhere my stamina is resting in an endless pool of leaked stamina.

It looks like ZOS have not fixed the stamina regen drain bug on PTS yet, at least it's not mentioned in the patch notes.
The possible* solution I proposed won't work properly unless they will fix this bug.

Urvoth

Shields weren't broken in the first place...

Universe

Urvoth wrote: »

Shields weren't broken in the first place...

I couldn't agree more.
Though sadly, I don't think it is possible to convince the combat team this is the case, so I came up with the above idea which may not break everything.
If they can revert the recent changes to shields they made in PTS and implement a more reasonable adjustment, it will be the lesser of two evils.