ZOS's Strict No Update To Live Art Policy

Aliyavana

ZOS_MattFiror wrote: »

On the development side, we have a strict policy to never change art assets once they have been in the live game, except – and this is important – if they are obviously “wrong”. Think bad animations, shoulder pads clipping through armor, weapons hanging too far off a character model’s hip – that kind of thing. This “no change” policy has been in effect since the Redguard Female Armor Debacle of 2015. This was where we updated the visuals of one type of Redguard Female armor and pushed it live without thinking of the consequences of players who liked the way it looked and had been using it for over a year. This caused a lot of – very much merited – criticism from players that liked the older style much better. That’s when we started our “no change” policy. Even if we think an asset needs to updated because it doesn’t fit ESO’s established art style or the artist responsible thinks they could have done better, we no longer change live assets because players are used to the way the game and their characters look, and that is more important than what WE think.

Funny story about this – and I’m sure you are all seeing where this is going – we have a backlog of art bugs and issues that we address over time. If these are flagged as low priority, it can take a long time to get to them. Just after our HDR versions of ESO launched, we flagged an HDR issue where some assets were not responding correctly to our HDR renderer – their color values were not configured properly and were “blown out”, meaning they were far too bright for the established ESO art style. This was entered as a bug, and sat there (not high priority) on the bug list for a few years. Eventually it was addressed and made its way into the build that launched with Update 19 (Wolfhunter).

So now this leaves us in a sticky situation: if we change it back, there will be players that like the new way better than the old. And they will be correct, just as are the ones who like the old way – this is subjective. We are now in a no-win situation, which is why we haven’t given you guys much information up until this point. What we need to do is step back, look at our options, and figure out what is the best thing to do that makes the highest number of players happy. I’m not 100% sure what this is yet, but hang tight and we’ll let you know.

And my sincere apologies for rolling this out with no information, no background, and no heads-up. We take this very seriously, and we’ll make some process changes to ensure something like this doesn’t happen again in the future, just like we did during the Redguard Female Armor Debacle.

The policy is hidden in the spoiler above, it has been shortened to include the important bits:

Can we talk about this? This entire policy can potentially hurt the expansion of the game especially when many things are on a deadline. Anyone remember how much backlash has been received due to Nocturnal's budget cosplayer character model, costumes dying poorly, and various house issues with interiors not matching exteriors? This policy leaves little room for improvement and many players can get the wrong impression that ZOS does not care for the product once it has been sold which isn't true at all. This policy while a good intention should be reviewed and polished if anything as so much more improvement can be made. Im sure the devs try the best to make things as good as possible within a deadline but this makes it so that they cannot go back and improve on it.

"Even if we think an asset needs to updated because it doesn’t fit ESO’s established art style or the artist responsible thinks they could have done better, we no longer change live assets because players are used to the way the game and their characters look, and that is more important than what WE think." I see with this the devs have great intentions, but what if a bunch of players want the base game motifs to be updated to the graphical quality of todays standards? the old armor sets show their age compared to new assets for example.


look at the huge support for a Nocturnal model update to bring her up to standards to the other amazing daedric prince character models.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/415511/dissapointed-that-nocturnal-looks-like-a-budget-cosplayer/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/435222/silly-nocturnal-model-is-still-a-thing#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/418481/official-respond-for-nocturnal-model-change
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/417856/do-you-like-nocturnals-model

There is various threads complaining about costumes dyeing horribly but this policy makes it so that they cant fix the dye channels. Many like fellow forum dweller @Recremen has many threads about the subject of many crown store costumes dyeing horribly. Like the renegade priest outfit not even having dyes where it is supposed to be, has that been fixed?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/432263/renegade-dragon-priest-dye-issue
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/432167/psa-renegade-dragon-priest-costume-has-some-serious-dye-issues
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/356335/holiday-in-balmora-costume-does-not-dye/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/357546/any-news-on-fixing-the-dye-issues-for-holiday-in-balmora-costume
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/359623/what-on-earth-are-you-doing-to-the-dye-system
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/388332/jarls-deluxe-moot-regalia-dyes-poorly/p1

The various threads about issues with exterior not matching interiors in several houses where windows and other things are completely missing.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/398927/exterior-interior-inconsistancies
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/331699/about-windows-and-inconsistencies-in-our-houses
etc

Even with lore, time constraints dont allow them to go back and update art assets. An example is the colored netch lore where The pet text implies that the adults of the mossy and rosy netch breed should be colored the same as their calfs, but yet the adults have the same color despite their text implying that they should

And lets not forget how base game Maomer and Ordinator armor is still using old art assets.

Jhalin

Let’s be honest here. That policy is just a cop out so they never have to address the art errors and poor design choices

Aliyavana

Jhalin wrote: »

Let’s be honest here. That policy is just a cop out so they never have to address the art errors and poor design choices

I don't think that that is the case. They made this policy because they care about player's attachments to things, but it backfired because it makes players think that they don't care enough to fix things after they get our money.

megshere

I fully understand why things like this policy exist, but in cases like the Renegade Dragon Priest costume, where the dye on the hips does not line up with the costume AT ALL, they need to fix it regardless of any policy. That outfit was 2000 crowns, and the dye doesn't line up with the armor at all...that is not acceptable.

BigBragg

The policy is their choice and will remain effect when and where, for as long as the choose. If they wanted to do something to change things they would. They own all game assests and can do with them as they see fit at any moment they desire.

Aliyavana

megshere wrote: »

I fully understand why things like this policy exist, but in cases like the Renegade Dragon Priest costume, where the dye on the hips does not line up with the costume AT ALL, they need to fix it regardless of any policy. That outfit was 2000 crowns, and the dye doesn't line up with the armor at all...that is not acceptable.

is that costume still broken?

BigBragg wrote: »

The policy is their choice and will remain effect when and where, for as long as the choose. If they wanted to do something to change things they would. They own all game assests and can do with them as they see fit at any moment they desire.

clearly, but we as customers have the right to refuse to buy anything from them and with a lot of the costumes recently being disasters to dye and interiors of houses not matching up, they have missed some opportunities to receive some of our money

Lake

megshere wrote: »

I fully understand why things like this policy exist, but in cases like the Renegade Dragon Priest costume, where the dye on the hips does not line up with the costume AT ALL, they need to fix it regardless of any policy. That outfit was 2000 crowns, and the dye doesn't line up with the armor at all...that is not acceptable.

They seriously didn't fix that yet?

megshere

Yes, it is. I have it on my tank, and it look ok, until you look at the side and see where it doesn't line up at all. I still like it, but that's just really annoying!

Aliyavana

megshere wrote: »

Yes, it is. I have it on my tank, and it look ok, until you look at the side and see where it doesn't line up at all. I still like it, but that's just really annoying!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/432263/renegade-dragon-priest-dye-issue
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/432167/psa-renegade-dragon-priest-costume-has-some-serious-dye-issues

There is several threads up about it so I hope they will do something about it if it hasn't been fixed

megshere

I can deal with some costumes not dyeing as well as others, because like in life, different types of fabric dye differently, and I get that...but I would at least like my dyes to line up with the outfit!

ezio45

Not sure where exactly I stand on this issue but I do agree that it has the potential to hinder some of the refreshing or issues with the game

If they "update" my highelf light armor motifs... Im not gunna be happy. BUUUUT @ZOS_MattFiror there nothing stopping you from making " Exemplary Highelf Shoes" and adding it to the base blue motif book if Zos feels that its update time for some of the older looks. We have existing multiple versions of old armor already and as long as it doesnt override the option for the old look im happy to see more variety

The color thing, I dont see this as being an issue. Personally if I select a color to dye something i want it to be the EXACT color i selected. Ive never understood why this has been an issue but I remember it was even a problem with back in vanilla eso, medium armor never dyed right either.

The part where i think they might run into problems is updating old npc outfits. Nocturnal for example sucks, not many down votes to change her look. The moamer having the old ancient elf armor or the militant ordinators have (idk i dont go to red zones) I could see how some ppl could fall into either category of update or leave the same. Foe those its not about looks for me as much as showing off the history of the game. However I think at some point regardless there will be a time when the older zones need to get graphically updated

Jhalin

Aliyavana wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Let’s be honest here. That policy is just a cop out so they never have to address the art errors and poor design choices

I don't think that that is the case. They made this policy because they care about player's attachments to things, but it backfired because it makes players think that they don't care enough to fix things after they get our money.

They do. Grimalkin pet is still being sold and the model mesh is completely messed up still. No fix for renegade dragon priest still. Costumes still don’t dye correctly. The one Argonians costume still warps legs on female toons.

They seriously do not care once they’ve got your money

Aliyavana

ezio45 wrote: »

Not sure where exactly I stand on this issue but I do agree that it has the potential to hinder some of the refreshing or issues with the game

If they "update" my highelf light armor motifs... Im not gunna be happy. BUUUUT @ZOS_MattFiror there nothing stopping you from making " Exemplary Highelf Shoes" and adding it to the base blue motif book if Zos feels that its update time for some of the older looks. We have existing multiple versions of old armor already and as long as it doesnt override the option for the old look im happy to see more variety

The color thing, I dont see this as being an issue. Personally if I select a color to dye something i want it to be the EXACT color i selected. Ive never understood why this has been an issue but I remember it was even a problem with back in vanilla eso, medium armor never dyed right either.

The part where i think they might run into problems is updating old npc outfits. Nocturnal for example sucks, not many down votes to change her look. The moamer having the old ancient elf armor or the militant ordinators have (idk i dont go to red zones) I could see how some ppl could fall into either category of update or leave the same. Foe those its not about looks for me as much as showing off the history of the game. However I think at some point regardless there will be a time when the older zones need to get graphically updated

they can add the old armor visual looks as "legacy" armor styles as replace the old with new updated quality armor. Battleground motifs prove that alternate appearances can exist for existing motif styles

ezio45

Aliyavana wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Not sure where exactly I stand on this issue but I do agree that it has the potential to hinder some of the refreshing or issues with the game

If they "update" my highelf light armor motifs... Im not gunna be happy. BUUUUT @ZOS_MattFiror there nothing stopping you from making " Exemplary Highelf Shoes" and adding it to the base blue motif book if Zos feels that its update time for some of the older looks. We have existing multiple versions of old armor already and as long as it doesnt override the option for the old look im happy to see more variety

The color thing, I dont see this as being an issue. Personally if I select a color to dye something i want it to be the EXACT color i selected. Ive never understood why this has been an issue but I remember it was even a problem with back in vanilla eso, medium armor never dyed right either.

The part where i think they might run into problems is updating old npc outfits. Nocturnal for example sucks, not many down votes to change her look. The moamer having the old ancient elf armor or the militant ordinators have (idk i dont go to red zones) I could see how some ppl could fall into either category of update or leave the same. Foe those its not about looks for me as much as showing off the history of the game. However I think at some point regardless there will be a time when the older zones need to get graphically updated

they can add the old armor visual looks as "legacy" armor styles as replace the old with new updated quality armor. Battleground motifs prove that alternate appearances can exist for existing motif styles

either option works for me, the important part is having the option to pick the older versions

ezio45

but like ya at some point they are gunna need to go update the older zones graphically

i mean can you imagine 2060: " im proud to announce the newest chapter of the elder scrolls online: raz get a throne in his paw!!!!"

and my ad loving grand kids (ill disown them if they are the lesser alliances) log on and go to auridon and are like horrified like grandpa wtf is wrong with the game and Old man me goes waddling over puts on my future glasses and am like "oh kiddos that theres auridon games fine thats just what graphics we had back then there when the game was release"

then there just like WOW GRANDPA YOU MUST BE ANCIENT and im like wuuut wuut ya say... and there like YOUR ANCIENT and im like oh ya ancient elf armor was pretty cool, say did i ever tell you about the time i worked for the dark brotherhood... ugh yes grandpa.... 100 times today, oh good. *takes nap mid sentence then wakes up* what where "FOR THE QUEEN" *returns to napping*

TheYKcid

A policy like this means the old, base-game styles (racial motifs etc.) will never get a facelift to match the newer ones. Same applies to base game zones with lower-quality architecture and landscaping.

To be fair these old assets still look decent in a vacuum, but they're starting to look very dated next to recent releases from DLCs/chapters.

Runs

But haven't they changed a few of the houses after they were live... One of the Morrowind ones, and the Craglorn Cavern one?

Osteos

This means don't buy anything unless you are 100% satisfied. If you aren't satisfied or if something is wrong with an item more than likely it will not be fixed. Do not buy in hopes they will update/fix it, I think it only encourages them to release shoddy work.

ezio45

Runs wrote: »

But haven't they changed a few of the houses after they were live... One of the Morrowind ones, and the Craglorn Cavern one?

they did change linchal but idk why, probably a bug

ezio45

Osteos wrote: »

This means don't buy anything unless you are 100% satisfied. If you aren't satisfied or if something is wrong with an item more than likely it will not be fixed. Do not buy in hopes they will update/fix it, I think it only encourages them to release shoddy work.

problem with that is you cant test dye before you buy. Ive bought some costumes i really like and go to dye and colossal brass gets washed out

Aliyavana

Runs wrote: »

But haven't they changed a few of the houses after they were live... One of the Morrowind ones, and the Craglorn Cavern one?

they change houses for bug purposes, not art purposes.

Taleof2Cities

Aliyavana wrote: »

they can add the old armor visual looks as "legacy" armor styles as replace the old with new updated quality armor. Battleground motifs prove that alternate appearances can exist for existing motif styles

This is a really good point, @Aliyavana.

We now have the Outfit System where it’s possible to include legacy styles (like the old Redguard female style mentioned by Matt above) ... alongside the new contemporary style if an artist wants to make a change.

All players are happy because they can choose which style they want (old or new) simply by unlocking both in the Outfit Overlay.

That doesn’t solve other problems like the Renegade Dragon Priest Costume or the Nocturnal model update ... which are still very real issues.

But, for character customization, my opinion is that players and ZOS can both be happy by simply including legacy outfit styles as a choice at the Outfit Station. The “No Update To Live Art Policy” would not apply in this part of the game at least.

weedgenius

Jhalin wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Let’s be honest here. That policy is just a cop out so they never have to address the art errors and poor design choices

I don't think that that is the case. They made this policy because they care about player's attachments to things, but it backfired because it makes players think that they don't care enough to fix things after they get our money.

They do. Grimalkin pet is still being sold and the model mesh is completely messed up still. No fix for renegade dragon priest still. Costumes still don’t dye correctly. The one Argonians costume still warps legs on female toons.

They seriously do not care once they’ve got your money

No one at ZOS has even bothered to acknowledge the Grimalkin pet problems yet and it is still being sold for 1,000 crowns at this very moment. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt — I really do — but they make it so hard for me.

Beardimus

The problem is beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Even in your source thread whilst the change to HDR was an error, and looked terrible - still the odd person preferred it (tho some may have been trolling) but that's not a crown item we paid for.

How do you suggest they cover that eventuality that someone buys something with real world bucks and loves it yet others don't and want it changed? It's a difficult one. Perhaps if they offered a refund to very person that bought it. But is that in their interest, after all they are a company to make money not a public service.

I see your point, hell HDR situation totally upset me. How wet i also see in this example with cosmetics its hard for them to please everyone.

Beardimus

Plus, ive realised the irony is when we talk about zos having our money....

They already have it. They have the cash when we buy crowns. Not when we spend the crowns. So withholding purchase on principle if you sat on crowns doesn't really prove a thing.

Difficult one.

TheInfernalRage

Aliyavana wrote: »

ZOS_MattFiror wrote: »

On the development side, we have a strict policy to never change art assets once they have been in the live game, except – and this is important – if they are obviously “wrong”. Think bad animations, shoulder pads clipping through armor, weapons hanging too far off a character model’s hip – that kind of thing. This “no change” policy has been in effect since the Redguard Female Armor Debacle of 2015. This was where we updated the visuals of one type of Redguard Female armor and pushed it live without thinking of the consequences of players who liked the way it looked and had been using it for over a year. This caused a lot of – very much merited – criticism from players that liked the older style much better. That’s when we started our “no change” policy. Even if we think an asset needs to updated because it doesn’t fit ESO’s established art style or the artist responsible thinks they could have done better, we no longer change live assets because players are used to the way the game and their characters look, and that is more important than what WE think.

Funny story about this – and I’m sure you are all seeing where this is going – we have a backlog of art bugs and issues that we address over time. If these are flagged as low priority, it can take a long time to get to them. Just after our HDR versions of ESO launched, we flagged an HDR issue where some assets were not responding correctly to our HDR renderer – their color values were not configured properly and were “blown out”, meaning they were far too bright for the established ESO art style. This was entered as a bug, and sat there (not high priority) on the bug list for a few years. Eventually it was addressed and made its way into the build that launched with Update 19 (Wolfhunter).

So now this leaves us in a sticky situation: if we change it back, there will be players that like the new way better than the old. And they will be correct, just as are the ones who like the old way – this is subjective. We are now in a no-win situation, which is why we haven’t given you guys much information up until this point. What we need to do is step back, look at our options, and figure out what is the best thing to do that makes the highest number of players happy. I’m not 100% sure what this is yet, but hang tight and we’ll let you know.

And my sincere apologies for rolling this out with no information, no background, and no heads-up. We take this very seriously, and we’ll make some process changes to ensure something like this doesn’t happen again in the future, just like we did during the Redguard Female Armor Debacle.

The policy is hidden in the spoiler above, it has been shortened to include the important bits:

Can we talk about this? This entire policy can potentially hurt the expansion of the game especially when many things are on a deadline. Anyone remember how much backlash has been received due to Nocturnal's budget cosplayer character model, costumes dying poorly, and various house issues with interiors not matching exteriors? This policy leaves little room for improvement and many players can get the wrong impression that ZOS does not care for the product once it has been sold which isn't true at all. This policy while a good intention should be reviewed and polished if anything as so much more improvement can be made. Im sure the devs try the best to make things as good as possible within a deadline but this makes it so that they cannot go back and improve on it.

"Even if we think an asset needs to updated because it doesn’t fit ESO’s established art style or the artist responsible thinks they could have done better, we no longer change live assets because players are used to the way the game and their characters look, and that is more important than what WE think." I see with this the devs have great intentions, but what if a bunch of players want the base game motifs to be updated to the graphical quality of todays standards? the old armor sets show their age compared to new assets for example.


look at the huge support for a Nocturnal model update to bring her up to standards to the other amazing daedric prince character models.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/415511/dissapointed-that-nocturnal-looks-like-a-budget-cosplayer/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/435222/silly-nocturnal-model-is-still-a-thing#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/418481/official-respond-for-nocturnal-model-change
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/417856/do-you-like-nocturnals-model

There is various threads complaining about costumes dyeing horribly but this policy makes it so that they cant fix the dye channels. Many like fellow forum dweller @Recremen has many threads about the subject of many crown store costumes dyeing horribly. Like the renegade priest outfit not even having dyes where it is supposed to be, has that been fixed?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/432263/renegade-dragon-priest-dye-issue
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/432167/psa-renegade-dragon-priest-costume-has-some-serious-dye-issues
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/356335/holiday-in-balmora-costume-does-not-dye/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/357546/any-news-on-fixing-the-dye-issues-for-holiday-in-balmora-costume
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/359623/what-on-earth-are-you-doing-to-the-dye-system
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/388332/jarls-deluxe-moot-regalia-dyes-poorly/p1

The various threads about issues with exterior not matching interiors in several houses where windows and other things are completely missing.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/398927/exterior-interior-inconsistancies
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/331699/about-windows-and-inconsistencies-in-our-houses
etc

Even with lore, time constraints dont allow them to go back and update art assets. An example is the colored netch lore where The pet text implies that the adults of the mossy and rosy netch breed should be colored the same as their calfs, but yet the adults have the same color despite their text implying that they should

And lets not forget how base game Maomer and Ordinator armor is still using old art assets.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Any chance this can be arranged in future patches? Black Desert already Remastered itself, though its content sucks but still...

essi2

Absolutes are idiotic, and for a live/service game to have a 'No Change' policy for existing assets is insane.

All the vanilla assets already look like *** compared to newer assets, this includes both styles and static world assets.
Imagine what the vanilla assets will look like in comparison in a few years.

A full refresh of all the old assets is necessary at some point.

iiYuki

This policy leaves little room for improvement and many players can get the wrong impression that ZOS does not care for the product once it has been sold which isn't true at all.

They obviously dont care or they would sell the same re-skinned mounts and pets over and over again in "Limited time" sales that are *** in their own right. Linchal Grand Manor was limited time, I bought it last year so I could have an awesome house that I might use as a guild home in the future with the only deciding factor being no-one else will ever own this home again, this is my only chance to ever own it and alas they are now limited time selling it AGAIN, I guess limited time means something different to ZO$ funny though how its the only one to return the island home and various mounts and costumes haven't, then again they weren't 14000-17500 crowns.
That Policy is literally the BIGGEST cop-out and F-you to paying customers that it possibly could be, and the only logical conclusion anyone could take from it is that they in fact could not give two-*** about customers once the money has been passes.
"This was entered as a bug, and sat there (not high priority) on the bug list for a few years" A few *** YEARS as if its no problem just a little bug no biggie lets let it sit there for YEARS, how can it take ANY company, or more specifically a company a large and making as much money like ZO$ a "couple of years" to fix a *** art related bug.
if we change it back, there will be players that like the new way better than the old. And they will be correct, just as are the ones who like the old way – this is subjective. We are now in a no-win situation, now this is the one that takes the prize as most idiotic comment of the entire policy, "my character model is clipping the outfit", "HDR isnt working as intended", "dying doesn't work with this outfit" well some people might like it so we'll do nothing, biggest and best cop-out I've seen so far.

crjs1

I understand the policy, don’t agree with it, but understand. The main issue for me is that this basically rules out a remaster of base game zones and assets. These are already looking dated, just compare Aurdiron to Summerset.. it’s only going to get worse as new (beautiful) content gets released. The base zones desperately need an aesthetic revamp with better textures, reskinned NCPs etc, this policy basically rules that out. On a dynamic ‘live’ server based game that makes no sense.

VaranisArano

There's nothing preventing ZOS making updates to base game assets. They've changed NPC outfits before - high Kinlady Estre now wears a costume, as do several other NPCs.

Nox_Noir

This explains a lot... What a shame...
I had no idea the redguard armor change back then was a "debacle". The original style looked absolutely ridiculous - bad design, amateurish execution, like so many of the old racial styles. I thought it was so nice of them to update it and the newer version looked so much better, much finer detail and great design. I can't believe that some players seriously thought the old version looked better and complained so much about it that it got us this "no change policy"... I think that's the true debacle here. A very vocal minority once again ruining it for everyone. Or maybe this whole thing really is just an excuse to save development time, who knows...
So long I've been desperately waiting for them to finally do more of these art-passes on some of the hideous, and just honestly poorly done old assets that came on launch. Well, now I know better...