Improving group finder (ideas)

Guppet

Not a day goes by without at least some thread or other complaining about fake tanks, fake dps, or no tanks or healers being needed, or radical differences in difficulty.

The only current certainty is that the current group finder is not working well for everyone.

So please come up with your ideas to help this, not moan.

My suggestion would be 4 queues.
1 normal dungeons, excluding dlc. These are role neutral. But the system will not put 2 tanks or healers in the same group. System waits at least 2 minutes to try and give tank and healer, but if not available it takes 4 who have waited longest. (Maybe have an option dps players can toggle to wait for available tanks and healers).
2 normal DLC dungeons. These are still traditional need dps tank and healer affairs.
3 and 4 repeat this pattern but at vet difficulty.

This would reduce wait times for dps players significantly. It would hopefully remove any incentive to fake queue.

It also has the added benefit of removing dlc dungeons from the random queue. So your never ending up with one with a fake tank.

What are your suggestions?

Morgul667

Im im for anything that improves this prehistoric tool

OrphanHelgen

They could have a lobby room where people wrote a description of what players they are looking for. If you want to go for a no death achievement, you can't group tool that since u will end up with a player who took random vet and is cp 100 or something.
Also many times I do random vet, I get in a group that are stuck on a boss for a long time instead of me starting with other players who queued for a "random vet". If this group instead wrote in a lobby room that they need help where they are, people would see it and apply for it. Kind of same as they have in league of legends when u make a custom game.

Not to be elitist here, but it's really not fun doing a vet dungeon with a player who spam light attacks only, and yes that happened a few days ago with me. Also doing a bit harder dungeons require some communication. Ofc you can just ask guild mates and friends, all though those guilds I am in and people on my friend list, usually are not around 3 am when I'm awake. If the solution to do dungeon runs is to have guilds and friends, then please expand the friend list from 100 to atleast 200, and make more guild slots available. If more friend list and guild spots are not an option, then yes improve group tool hard.

VaranisArano

I think the solution is simpler. If you want a group other than the groupfinder roles, ask guildies or zone chat. Its probably quicker than waiting in queue, is likely a better quality group, and has the benefit that everyone knows what they are getting into.

This is also something you can do right now, not sometime in the future when ZOS attempts to fix ongoing issues with groupfinder.

OrphanHelgen

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think the solution is simpler. If you want a group other than the groupfinder roles, ask guildies or zone chat. Its probably quicker than waiting in queue, is likely a better quality group, and has the benefit that everyone knows what they are getting into.

This is also something you can do right now, not sometime in the future when ZOS attempts to fix ongoing issues with groupfinder.

People don't use group finder because they get queued with bad players and just because of this fact. If solution is to not use it, why have it in the first place? We are trying to find a solution for it, and saying don't use it, is not a solution. We all know ask friends and guild mates are easier solution, but it won't solve why group tool is bad.

Bevik

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

They could have a lobby room where people wrote a description of what players they are looking for. If you want to go for a no death achievement, you can't group tool that since u will end up with a player who took random vet and is cp 100 or something.
Also many times I do random vet, I get in a group that are stuck on a boss for a long time instead of me starting with other players who queued for a "random vet". If this group instead wrote in a lobby room that they need help where they are, people would see it and apply for it. Kind of same as they have in league of legends when u make a custom game.

Not to be elitist here, but it's really not fun doing a vet dungeon with a player who spam light attacks only, and yes that happened a few days ago with me. Also doing a bit harder dungeons require some communication. Ofc you can just ask guild mates and friends, all though those guilds I am in and people on my friend list, usually are not around 3 am when I'm awake. If the solution to do dungeon runs is to have guilds and friends, then please expand the friend list from 100 to atleast 200, and make more guild slots available. If more friend list and guild spots are not an option, then yes improve group tool hard.

They can just go and get ideas from other MMOs like seriously. I used to play Lineage 2 which is like 12-13 years old maybe? Of course they didn't have a proper lobby room let's say at the beginning but now they have. You create a room, name it, set max players, level etc and wait people to join the room, if you want to take someone take him/her or kick from the room. You can even chat in the room before taking anyone. In some cases this Group Finder is working but yes it is damn outdated. People are complaining about this since ages, and yes they tweaked a bit with level/CP requirements but it is still stone age tool.

Guppet

Please bear in mind that solutions need to work on consoles too. So anything that requires the players to get heavily involved in typing won’t work.

OrphanHelgen

Bevik wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

They could have a lobby room where people wrote a description of what players they are looking for. If you want to go for a no death achievement, you can't group tool that since u will end up with a player who took random vet and is cp 100 or something.
Also many times I do random vet, I get in a group that are stuck on a boss for a long time instead of me starting with other players who queued for a "random vet". If this group instead wrote in a lobby room that they need help where they are, people would see it and apply for it. Kind of same as they have in league of legends when u make a custom game.

Not to be elitist here, but it's really not fun doing a vet dungeon with a player who spam light attacks only, and yes that happened a few days ago with me. Also doing a bit harder dungeons require some communication. Ofc you can just ask guild mates and friends, all though those guilds I am in and people on my friend list, usually are not around 3 am when I'm awake. If the solution to do dungeon runs is to have guilds and friends, then please expand the friend list from 100 to atleast 200, and make more guild slots available. If more friend list and guild spots are not an option, then yes improve group tool hard.

They can just go and get ideas from other MMOs like seriously. I used to play Lineage 2 which is like 12-13 years old maybe? Of course they didn't have a proper lobby room let's say at the beginning but now they have. You create a room, name it, set max players, level etc and wait people to join the room, if you want to take someone take him/her or kick from the room. You can even chat in the room before taking anyone. In some cases this Group Finder is working but yes it is damn outdated. People are complaining about this since ages, and yes they tweaked a bit with level/CP requirements but it is still stone age tool.

Ye agree on that. It's not to be mean to anyone, but pure realistic to not want a cp 100 first time tank in a no death scalecaller peak . And like I said before, if solution is to not use group finder, why have it in the first place.

Mephisto939

Guppet wrote: »

Not a day goes by without at least some thread or other complaining about fake tanks, fake dps, or no tanks or healers being needed, or radical differences in difficulty.

The only current certainty is that the current group finder is not working well for everyone.

So please come up with your ideas to help this, not moan.

My suggestion would be 4 queues.
1 normal dungeons, excluding dlc. These are role neutral. But the system will not put 2 tanks or healers in the same group. System waits at least 2 minutes to try and give tank and healer, but if not available it takes 4 who have waited longest. (Maybe have an option dps players can toggle to wait for available tanks and healers).
2 normal DLC dungeons. These are still traditional need dps tank and healer affairs.
3 and 4 repeat this pattern but at vet difficulty.

This would reduce wait times for dps players significantly. It would hopefully remove any incentive to fake queue.

It also has the added benefit of removing dlc dungeons from the random queue. So your never ending up with one with a fake tank.

What are your suggestions?

i proposed a similar idea the other day. All it would take is an optional checkbox for "non-optimized group".

Guppet

Mephisto939 wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Not a day goes by without at least some thread or other complaining about fake tanks, fake dps, or no tanks or healers being needed, or radical differences in difficulty.

The only current certainty is that the current group finder is not working well for everyone.

So please come up with your ideas to help this, not moan.

My suggestion would be 4 queues.
1 normal dungeons, excluding dlc. These are role neutral. But the system will not put 2 tanks or healers in the same group. System waits at least 2 minutes to try and give tank and healer, but if not available it takes 4 who have waited longest. (Maybe have an option dps players can toggle to wait for available tanks and healers).
2 normal DLC dungeons. These are still traditional need dps tank and healer affairs.
3 and 4 repeat this pattern but at vet difficulty.

This would reduce wait times for dps players significantly. It would hopefully remove any incentive to fake queue.

It also has the added benefit of removing dlc dungeons from the random queue. So your never ending up with one with a fake tank.

What are your suggestions?

i proposed a similar idea the other day. All it would take is an optional checkbox for "non-optimized group".

Seems so simple to do. Be very effective. I do think that non optimised should lock them out of dlc, just for obvious reasons.

It needs something this simple, as console exists and has a significant number of players. The checkbox works for all platforms.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

The classic counterarguments for separating the dungeons into groups like this is that everyone trying to complete randoms will just do the non-dlc queues because those dungeons are easier, and queue times will grow significantly because you've just halved your pool in any given category.

That being said, I'd still favor grouping of dlc vs vanilla if it is done effectively. I'd take longer queue times if it meant I was almost guaranteed a clear. None of this will combat fake tanks or fake dps though, the only thing to prevent that from happening will be hard-coded restrictions based on stats, and if those stats change significantly (>~15%) while waiting in the queue or during the dungeon, the player would be immediately kicked.

Jinchuu

Guppet wrote: »

Please bear in mind that solutions need to work on consoles too. So anything that requires the players to get heavily involved in typing won’t work.

[removed baiting comment] You can buy one dirt cheap from somewhere like Walmart or w/e equivalent your country has or visit an office/school/library etc. and they'll give you one of their old ones for free so there is no excuse for not having one. Hell, I'm typing this on my xbox right now on a keyboard I got from my old middle school.

oxygen_thief

the best improvement to the group finder is to make it work during prime time. it seems to me its an impossible task for such a company as zos.

AhPook_Is_Here

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

They could have a lobby room where people wrote a description of what players they are looking for. If you want to go for a no death achievement, you can't group tool that since u will end up with a player who took random vet and is cp 100 or something.
Also many times I do random vet, I get in a group that are stuck on a boss for a long time instead of me starting with other players who queued for a "random vet". If this group instead wrote in a lobby room that they need help where they are, people would see it and apply for it. Kind of same as they have in league of legends when u make a custom game.

Not to be elitist here, but it's really not fun doing a vet dungeon with a player who spam light attacks only, and yes that happened a few days ago with me. Also doing a bit harder dungeons require some communication. Ofc you can just ask guild mates and friends, all though those guilds I am in and people on my friend list, usually are not around 3 am when I'm awake. If the solution to do dungeon runs is to have guilds and friends, then please expand the friend list from 100 to atleast 200, and make more guild slots available. If more friend list and guild spots are not an option, then yes improve group tool hard.

Isn't that lobby called zone chat though? I mean it could be more inclusive than just your undaunted city, like maybe global LFG? A GUI lobby would be cool, but i could see people who need an achievement checking stuff not because they were ready for it but expecting a bus ride.

Starlock

Honestly, while the group finder tool could be improved, most of the problems I notice in randomly assembled groups is players exhibiting poor manners. I cued up for a random yesterday, and it popped one of the DLC dungeons - Falkreath. Just before the first boss, one of the DPS quit. That was fine - we took down the first boss no issues. Crown queues up for a replacement. Meanwhile, the "tank" in our group doesn't bother waiting for this and runs way ahead of us. Me and the other guy just stand there like "uhm..." and watch as the multiple minotaurs fill in between this "tank" and the rest of us. Failing to be a team player is far, far worse than queuing in a role you are poorly specced for.

Guppet

Jinchuu wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Please bear in mind that solutions need to work on consoles too. So anything that requires the players to get heavily involved in typing won’t work.

[removed baiting comment] You can buy one dirt cheap from somewhere like Walmart or w/e equivalent your country has or visit an office/school/library etc. and they'll give you one of their old ones for free so there is no excuse for not having one. Hell, I'm typing this on my xbox right now on a keyboard I got from my old middle school.

You need to bear in mind that anyone on the forums takes things more seriously than those that don’t visit them. Just because you have a keyboard on your Xbox, does not mean you can assume most will, or that you should build the game on the assumption they will. Remember text chat had to be added, the game launched without it.

Part of the charm of console ESO, is the just sit back and chill on your sofa aspect.

I’m aware you can do that on pc too, but console just is perceived as more casual friendly.

I have a Bluetooth keyboard for my PS4, so I type in chat. But it’s not that often that I see others do it. I think Cyrodil is the main place I see it.

Swomp23

I like the idea of enabling 4 dps for normal dungeons. This queue would need some requirements however, to be sure that 4 newbie dps lvl 20-30 end up together. But if it could be an option once you hit CP 160, it would greatly speed up both the new 4-dps queue and the old 1-1-2 queue.

But do you really think you could do the same for vet dungeons? I know I cant tank vet dungeons at CP300 with my dps. Maybe 4 max cp dps could handle vet fungal grotto and the likes, if they built for it, but I don't think it would work for vet CoA2 or other harder dungeons, even non-dlc ones.

Starlock

Guppet wrote: »

Jinchuu wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Please bear in mind that solutions need to work on consoles too. So anything that requires the players to get heavily involved in typing won’t work.

[removed baiting comment] You can buy one dirt cheap from somewhere like Walmart or w/e equivalent your country has or visit an office/school/library etc. and they'll give you one of their old ones for free so there is no excuse for not having one. Hell, I'm typing this on my xbox right now on a keyboard I got from my old middle school.

You need to bear in mind that anyone on the forums takes things more seriously than those that don’t visit them. Just because you have a keyboard on your Xbox, does not mean you can assume most will, or that you should build the game on the assumption they will. Remember text chat had to be added, the game launched without it.

Part of the charm of console ESO, is the just sit back and chill on your sofa aspect.

I’m aware you can do that on pc too, but console just is perceived as more casual friendly.

I have a Bluetooth keyboard for my PS4, so I type in chat. But it’s not that often that I see others do it. I think Cyrodil is the main place I see it.

PSA - on XBOX, you don't need a keyboard. If you have a tablet or computer phone with a touch screen you can download the xbox app called smartglass. It's free, and it does other things too.

Guppet

Swomp23 wrote: »

I like the idea of enabling 4 dps for normal dungeons. This queue would need some requirements however, to be sure that 4 newbie dps lvl 20-30 end up together. But if it could be an option once you hit CP 160, it would greatly speed up both the new 4-dps queue and the old 1-1-2 queue.

But do you really think you could do the same for vet dungeons? I know I cant tank vet dungeons at CP300 with my dps. Maybe 4 max cp dps could handle vet fungal grotto and the likes, if they built for it, but I don't think it would work for vet CoA2 or other harder dungeons, even non-dlc ones.

Personally I’d say this only needs to happen for normals. But people will argue that they don’t need a tank even in non dlc vets.

If you want your group to have a tank for non dlc vet you just don’t tick the box. Queues may be shorter as some may be happy to choose vet in non optimised groups.

Agenericname

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think the solution is simpler. If you want a group other than the groupfinder roles, ask guildies or zone chat. Its probably quicker than waiting in queue, is likely a better quality group, and has the benefit that everyone knows what they are getting into.

This is also something you can do right now, not sometime in the future when ZOS attempts to fix ongoing issues with groupfinder.

People don't use group finder because they get queued with bad players and just because of this fact. If solution is to not use it, why have it in the first place? We are trying to find a solution for it, and saying don't use it, is not a solution. We all know ask friends and guild mates are easier solution, but it won't solve why group tool is bad.

It's not so much that you shouldnt use it as it is that it has become a crutch. When WoTLK was released in WoW it introduced the LFG tool and later LFR. Prior to that it common place to make friends and populate your list or look for guilds that were active. The overall atmosphere in instances changed afterward.

In general it promoted competition and the group's environment was slightly more polite prior to LFG/LFR implementation. It has since become the standard and using it means that you will get placed in group regardless of your skill or aptitude for teamwork. In essence, using it is signing to be grouped with the aforementioned players.

The grouping tool has a flaw at a fundamental level.

AlnilamE

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

The classic counterarguments for separating the dungeons into groups like this is that everyone trying to complete randoms will just do the non-dlc queues because those dungeons are easier, and queue times will grow significantly because you've just halved your pool in any given category.

That being said, I'd still favor grouping of dlc vs vanilla if it is done effectively. I'd take longer queue times if it meant I was almost guaranteed a clear. None of this will combat fake tanks or fake dps though, the only thing to prevent that from happening will be hard-coded restrictions based on stats, and if those stats change significantly (>~15%) while waiting in the queue or during the dungeon, the player would be immediately kicked.

You mean like if someone's food runs out?

Crafts_Many_Boxes

AlnilamE wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

The classic counterarguments for separating the dungeons into groups like this is that everyone trying to complete randoms will just do the non-dlc queues because those dungeons are easier, and queue times will grow significantly because you've just halved your pool in any given category.

That being said, I'd still favor grouping of dlc vs vanilla if it is done effectively. I'd take longer queue times if it meant I was almost guaranteed a clear. None of this will combat fake tanks or fake dps though, the only thing to prevent that from happening will be hard-coded restrictions based on stats, and if those stats change significantly (>~15%) while waiting in the queue or during the dungeon, the player would be immediately kicked.

You mean like if someone's food runs out?

Meh, didn't think of that. I'm not sure if they could figure out a system that would take that into account or what, but I guess food buffs are significant enough in this game to complicate the whole thing.

I guess an even more elegant solution would be that there are hard stat requirements for each tier of difficulty, and once you queue up, your gear is slot locked until you're done the activity. A little restrictive, I know, but it would probably be an effective deterrent if Johnny dps trying to get to the front of the line queueing as a tank suddenly has to dps the whole dungeon in his tank gear.

idk

The idea is overly complicated which opens the door for many unintended issues.

The GF works fine as it is intended. If someone wants a faster queue time or wants a specific type group the fan form their own group. It’s just some cannot he bothered doing so and expect me he GF to work a different way to accommodate them.

VaranisArano

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think the solution is simpler. If you want a group other than the groupfinder roles, ask guildies or zone chat. Its probably quicker than waiting in queue, is likely a better quality group, and has the benefit that everyone knows what they are getting into.

This is also something you can do right now, not sometime in the future when ZOS attempts to fix ongoing issues with groupfinder.

People don't use group finder because they get queued with bad players and just because of this fact. If solution is to not use it, why have it in the first place? We are trying to find a solution for it, and saying don't use it, is not a solution. We all know ask friends and guild mates are easier solution, but it won't solve why group tool is bad.

The whole "groupfinder has bad players" isn't going to be solved until ZOS decides to actually teach new players how to do end-game DPS rotations.

Unless your 4DD run groupfinder has a DPS test or really, any sort of role test to queue, you aren't going to be able to exclude bad players from using groupfinder, no matter how you sort the queue.

Until then, new players are always going to struggle. If you want to avoid them or not get stuck in 4DD dungeon runs with them, the only option is to make your own groups. Changing up how the groupfinder does roles is not going to solve that problem.

Guppet

VaranisArano wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think the solution is simpler. If you want a group other than the groupfinder roles, ask guildies or zone chat. Its probably quicker than waiting in queue, is likely a better quality group, and has the benefit that everyone knows what they are getting into.

This is also something you can do right now, not sometime in the future when ZOS attempts to fix ongoing issues with groupfinder.

People don't use group finder because they get queued with bad players and just because of this fact. If solution is to not use it, why have it in the first place? We are trying to find a solution for it, and saying don't use it, is not a solution. We all know ask friends and guild mates are easier solution, but it won't solve why group tool is bad.

The whole "groupfinder has bad players" isn't going to be solved until ZOS decides to actually teach new players how to do end-game DPS rotations.

Unless your 4DD run groupfinder has a DPS test or really, any sort of role test to queue, you aren't going to be able to exclude bad players from using groupfinder, no matter how you sort the queue.

Until then, new players are always going to struggle. If you want to avoid them or not get stuck in 4DD dungeon runs with them, the only option is to make your own groups. Changing up how the groupfinder does roles is not going to solve that problem.

Teaching people how to dps would involve having to run people through animation cancelling. It would mean having to once and for all say it’s now a feature. Yes there is a hint that pops up for it, but that doesn’t get you to see it in practice.

The problem with that is that anybody that sees it will know right away that it was never intended and they have no clue how to fix it. They then see that the game is built on the acceptance that they can’t actually fix their own game so just accept it as broken.

I don’t think that would be good PR at all.

If they are going to teach dps, they also need to teach tanking and healing and how do they do that without saying that as a healer your main job is not even healing and as a tank your actually there to buff the dps.

How do you teach players when what you teach them defies all logic.

Wolfpaw

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Looking_For_Group

SoLooney

I will never use the group finder to find more than 1 random player and will never use it to find someone for any hard mode dlc dungeon.

With the huge influx of bad players in group finder, I might as well solo them cause that's better than getting frustrated at other people

But, that's what guildies and friends are for