Unofficial Discussion for Future Changes to Repentance

FoolishOptimist

Consecrate the souls of the fallen, healing you and your allies for 2702 Health and restoring 2702 Stamina to you each corpse in the area.
While slotted, you gain Minor Fortitude, Minor Endurance, and Minor Intellect, increasing Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 10%.

Repentance, in my mind's eye, has been one of the Templar's major class defining skills. While its usefulness is completely situational: the ability's cast animation, the free group heal, decent stam return and just the fact that you're extracting the essence of your fallen comrades and enemies is just pure epic. The main issues with this skill was recognised by players, class reps and devs in the recent update discussion:
Agree that Templars fighting over repenting corpses is undesirable

People feel that as a resource management skill, Repentance can feel useless outside of trash mob confrontations because:

• Stam return doesn't occur until the opponent is dead
• A corpse can only be repented once, causing in-fighting between who should have the right to repent
• Often no corpses to repent during some boss fights or during duals

Many PvP templars feel the of the benefits of a corpse's ability to be repented once and by a single templar, is the strategic edge it can provide during combat. Repenting a corpse before your enemy can, gives quite a satisfying rush.

With these in mind, what are the changes you think should happen to this skill, and any changes to the base and alternative morph?

Personally, I feel a that if a templar's repentance offered group stam return (as previously) it could be somewhat overpowered. On that same token, if a corpse can be repented numerous times, it takes away from its tactful use in PvP. Perhaps if it offered stam return to the two/three closest allies? That way this skill could be utilised in dungeons by the tank, the DPS or the healer without anyone missing out. Should the allies receive half as much resource return? This may further the in-fighting over who uses the ability, but it offers some relief at least.

I'd love to see changes made to Restoring Aura and Radiant Aura as well, with the base skill providing the free heal and the alternative morph as a magicka version of repentance. If a corpse could but used by a Repentance once and a Radiant Aura once, would that be OP heals for no cost? What are your thoughts?

Restoring Aura:
Consecrate the souls of the fallen, healing you and your three closest allies for 2702 Health for each corpse in the area.
While slotted, you gain Minor Fortitude, Minor Endurance, and Minor Intellect, increasing Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 10%.

Radiant Aura:
Consecrate the souls of the fallen, healing you and your three closest allies for 2702 Health and restoring 2702 Magicka to you and 1351 Magicka to your allies for each corpse in the area.
While slotted, you gain Minor Fortitude, Minor Endurance, and Minor Intellect, increasing Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 10%.

usmguy1234

FoolishOptimist wrote: »

Consecrate the souls of the fallen, healing you and your allies for 2702 Health and restoring 2702 Stamina to you each corpse in the area.
While slotted, you gain Minor Fortitude, Minor Endurance, and Minor Intellect, increasing Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 10%.

Repentance, in my mind's eye, has been one of the Templar's major class defining skills. While its usefulness is completely situational: the ability's cast animation, the free group heal, decent stam return and just the fact that you're extracting the essence of your fallen comrades and enemies is just pure epic. The main issues with this skill was recognised by players, class reps and devs in the recent update discussion:
Agree that Templars fighting over repenting corpses is undesirable

People feel that as a resource management skill, Repentance can feel useless outside of trash mob confrontations because:

• Stam return doesn't occur until the opponent is dead
• A corpse can only be repented once, causing in-fighting between who should have the right to repent
• Often no corpses to repent during some boss fights or during duals

Many PvP templars feel the of the benefits of a corpse's ability to be repented once and by a single templar, is the strategic edge it can provide during combat. Repenting a corpse before your enemy can, gives quite a satisfying rush.

With these in mind, what are the changes you think should happen to this skill, and any changes to the base and alternative morph?

Personally, I feel a that if a templar's repentance offered group stam return (as previously) it could be somewhat overpowered. On that same token, if a corpse can be repented numerous times, it takes away from its tactful use in PvP. Perhaps if it offered stam return to the two/three closest allies? That way this skill could be utilised in dungeons by the tank, the DPS or the healer without anyone missing out. Should the allies receive half as much resource return? This may further the in-fighting over who uses the ability, but it offers some relief at least.

I'd love to see changes made to Restoring Aura and Radiant Aura as well, with the base skill providing the free heal and the alternative morph as a magicka version of repentance. If a corpse could but used by a Repentance once and a Radiant Aura once, would that be OP heals for no cost? What are your thoughts?

Restoring Aura:
Consecrate the souls of the fallen, healing you and your three closest allies for 2702 Health for each corpse in the area.
While slotted, you gain Minor Fortitude, Minor Endurance, and Minor Intellect, increasing Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 10%.

Radiant Aura:
Consecrate the souls of the fallen, healing you and your three closest allies for 2702 Health and restoring 2702 Magicka to you and 1351 Magicka to your allies for each corpse in the area.
While slotted, you gain Minor Fortitude, Minor Endurance, and Minor Intellect, increasing Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 10%.

How about the first templar to repent gives their team the bonus but additional templars can repent and they only get the bonus once?

FoolishOptimist

usmguy1234 wrote: »

How about the first templar to repent gives their team the bonus but additional templars can repent and they only get the bonus once?

Well my outlook was that the team bonus would provide the stam return for other templars on the team (4-person content limited) while preserving the PvP strategy of preventing enemy templars from recovering their health and resources.

aeowulf

Anything that requires a corpse is probably pretty bad. Repentence is the worst offender, being the *only* stamina return a single templar gets. Assassination from NB is also bad in the same ways (but also suffers a timing + cost issue) and as NB get SA it's not their only return.

It needs looking at badly, NB & especially Templar tanks need stamina return reviewing. Is what killed them off in Morrowind.

Starlock

I always have this slotted for my templar tank for both emergency off-heals and restoring resources after mob fights. It definitely has limited usefulness when it comes to bosses, and if it didn't have the 10% recovery bonuses it would certainly drop off my bar entirely.

I'm wondering if the way to modify this skill is to make it operate more like the netch from the warden class. Perhaps, for example, we demand the living to repent instead of the dead - for each enemy within a 5 meter radius you restore X stamina per second for Y seconds. Or perhaps activating the ability successfully grants major (20%) recovery bonuses.

IAVITNI

Or create a way to "generate" bodies. When a Templar with Repentance gets someone into execute range it creates a Fragmented Soul that can be Repented.

They could also revert the nerf to pet summons no longer leaving bodies. I didn't play as Stamplar around that time so I don't recall why it occurred, but I doubt it would still be a problem.

usmguy1234

FoolishOptimist wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

How about the first templar to repent gives their team the bonus but additional templars can repent and they only get the bonus once?

Well my outlook was that the team bonus would provide the stam return for other templars on the team (4-person content limited) while preserving the PvP strategy of preventing enemy templars from recovering their health and resources.

Right like I said the first temp gets the team bonus... subsequent temps only get heal/ stam for themselves. Stamplar regen is a joke compared to nightblades and stamwardens who also have better damage (imagine that). I'm not asking for the whole ham just a fricking bone.

Silver_Strider

Just make it so multiple Templars can Repent.

Bunch of Sinners, the lot of you.

Solariken

What about meeting in the middle?

Each corpse can be Repented once by each Templar, BUT each time a body is repented it reduces the effect for subsequent Templars by 50%.

So first Templar gets 100% stamina, next caster 50%, next guy 25%, next guy 12.5%, etc etc. I doubt there would be more Templars than that grabbing at the corpse anyway lol.

FoolishOptimist

Solariken wrote: »

What about meeting in the middle?

Each corpse can be Repented once by each Templar, BUT each time a body is repented it reduces the effect for subsequent Templars by 50%.

So first Templar gets 100% stamina, next caster 50%, next guy 25%, next guy 12.5%, etc etc. I doubt there would be more Templars than that grabbing at the corpse anyway lol.

You know, I’m not mad about this. I could get on board

Gnozo

It needs to be usefull for the group. Make the two morphs either stam or magicka sustain.


While slottet increase Stam/Magicka Recovery by 10 % for you and your group member.

Activate at no cost to consume the bodies of fallen enemies to restore 2000 stam/magicka per body over 4 seconds. The more bodies consumed the more ressource you get but the ressource getting shared in your group.

So consuming 5 bodies will give 10k stam/magicka to you and your group but this amount get also shared between the group member. A group of 2 ppl will give everyone 5k Ressources with 10 bodies. A group of 10 players will only give 1k ressource to each player.

Ofc values needs to be adjustet, these are only examples.

Qbiken

Speaking from a PvP point of view.Honestly I hope that ZOS doesn´t over-buff the sustain potential for stamina Templars. They already have really good damage output and potential to be incredibly tanky. Adding decent sustain on top of that might be too strong.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Gnozo wrote: »

It needs to be usefull for the group.

Why? Is leaching strikes useful for the group? Is dark conversion useful for the group? Is battle roar/helping hands useful for the group? Is bull netch useful for the group? Having group functionality is what is gimping repentance. Just make it so only the temp that casted repentance get healed/Stam return by the skill and then have every dead body repentantable once by each temp. Bam. More reliable Stam return that doesn't make temps overpowered.

Gnozo

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

It needs to be usefull for the group.

Why? Is leaching strikes useful for the group? Is dark conversion useful for the group? Is battle roar/helping hands useful for the group? Is bull netch useful for the group? Having group functionality is what is gimping repentance. Just make it so only the temp that casted repentance get healed/Stam return by the skill and then have every dead body repentantable once by each temp. Bam. More reliable Stam return that doesn't make temps overpowered.

Cause templars are a support class and i like abilities that supports the group. Players nowadays only build selfish and i want more group synergies.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Gnozo wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

It needs to be usefull for the group.

Why? Is leaching strikes useful for the group? Is dark conversion useful for the group? Is battle roar/helping hands useful for the group? Is bull netch useful for the group? Having group functionality is what is gimping repentance. Just make it so only the temp that casted repentance get healed/Stam return by the skill and then have every dead body repentantable once by each temp. Bam. More reliable Stam return that doesn't make temps overpowered.

Cause templars are a support class and i like abilities that supports the group. Players nowadays only build selfish and i want more group synergies.

look, i get it. i read the description of all 4 classes when i started, i read that a templar goes about "restoring health, magicka, and stamina to their allies.", that was a big part of what made me want to be a Templar with my first toon but that time is gone, there is no way that Zos post morrowwind will let temps be the only class that can directly restore stam and magic the way you are talking about, they would simply be far and away the best healers, again, like when repentance was good.

also wardens are a "support" class, whatever that means in a game where every class can do all roles relativity the same, and there stamina resource management is very selfish. stamina toons are almost by design more selfish then magic. so just do what i said to repentance and if you want to "support" your team, use the other morph.

Narvuntien

Stamina Steal anyone?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Narvuntien wrote: »

Stamina Steal anyone?

you would have to put stamina steal somewhere else, where every class could get it, like on the resto or something becuase if temps were the way to get it, as i said in my last post, it would make Templar healers the only way to go, again, and this is clearly not something that Zos wants. just make repentance a wholey personal skill. no reason to overthink it.

RavenSworn

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Just make it so multiple Templars can Repent.

Bunch of Sinners, the lot of you.

I sense a lot of Templars are ***, given how many wants to talk about corpses lol

How about Repentance using no of allies within a radius of 8m so it's proportionately better if in a raid? Perhaps a cool down of 8-12s until the ability can have an effect.

Or Radiant Aura gives a synergy upon activation, giving minor heroism for 4s to nearby allies?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

RavenSworn wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Just make it so multiple Templars can Repent.

Bunch of Sinners, the lot of you.

I sense a lot of Templars are ***, given how many wants to talk about corpses lol

How about Repentance using no of allies within a radius of 8m so it's proportionately better if in a raid? Perhaps a cool down of 8-12s until the ability can have an effect.

Or Radiant Aura gives a synergy upon activation, giving minor heroism for 4s to nearby allies?

Or just just make it so only the temp that casted repentance get healed/Stam return by the skill and then have every dead body repentantable once by each temp. If you try to do anything with group functionality, it will make Templar healers 100% better then all the rest. Instead of only 1920 of the off resource being the only real difference between healing classes.

hopewithoutwingsub17_ESO

Just make repentance not rely on dead bodies and cost magicka to convert to health and stam, increase proportionally based on number of enemies in the area. That way it's useful for tanks and damage dealers alike.

idk

Make repent a tree heal only. With the rune we have one morph as a magicka return. Make the other morph a stamina return.

This eliminates the competition and issues with corpses and gives stamplats a stam regen choice that works well for tanking and dps.

Minno

Solariken wrote: »

What about meeting in the middle?

Each corpse can be Repented once by each Templar, BUT each time a body is repented it reduces the effect for subsequent Templars by 50%.

So first Templar gets 100% stamina, next caster 50%, next guy 25%, next guy 12.5%, etc etc. I doubt there would be more Templars than that grabbing at the corpse anyway lol.

I think they liked the sustain body lock for PvP more.

Which in that case they can just have it so your alliance/team can only repent the bodies if a friendly Templar already repenteted.

Or delete and just give everyone nightblades siphoning strikes lol

Checkmath

It looks like the devs are working on that skill. I hope we see something different than just being able to repent every dead body once for every templar. But it looks like this will be their solution, so that every templar can use the skill without damaging his allied templar.

FoolishOptimist

@Checkmath what would your ideal change to the skill look like?

Checkmath

FoolishOptimist wrote: »

@Checkmath what would your ideal change to the skill look like?

Really difficult questions tough....
I think moving the 10% regeneration for slotting restoring aura should be included somewhere in the skill tree passives. The idea of the skill is actually cool (if all templars could use it), so I like the thing to repent dead bodies and gain resources back. But this skill is very limited and does not provide consistent stamina sustain, especially what stamplars lack. During boss fights without smaller enemies, the skill does not provide any resources. Also stamina steal is not an option, since the devs do not have any plans till now to implement this debuff in the game.
I got a lot of feedback regarding burning light, which should provide stamina back to the templar when procced. I kind of like this idea and maybe it could work together with repentance. So basically if you have repentance slotted (only on one bar naturally), your burning light procs could restore some stamina.
But then there are a lot of others ideas around for that skill. One for example adds major brutality or sorcery (depending on the specific morph) to the skill, meanwhile the base morph would include another buff.

Jaimeh

FoolishOptimist wrote: »

Personally, I feel a that if a templar's repentance offered group stam return (as previously) it could be somewhat overpowered. On that same token, if a corpse can be repented numerous times, it takes away from its tactful use in PvP. Perhaps if it offered stam return to the two/three closest allies? That way this skill could be utilised in dungeons by the tank, the DPS or the healer without anyone missing out. Should the allies receive half as much resource return? This may further the in-fighting over who uses the ability, but it offers some relief at least.

I like the idea of Repentance restoring stamina to 2-3 of the closest allies; this way if a templar in PvP misses a body due to another templar casting it faster, they can still get a return since they already close to the body. It will also be good for PvE if more than one templar is in the group so they don't have to worry about who slots it, since whoever uses it, they will benefit the others as well. Basically, a less buffed previous form of Repentance.

FoolishOptimist

These are some interesting perspectives. There’s no denying that in the right circumstances, Repentance is the most powerful sustain tool of all classes, but failing access to large piles of dead corpses, it also becomes the most useless. Part of me likes the balance of this, but the other part of me recognises that we don’t typically have access to the stam return when we need it most.

@Joy_Division do you have any thoughts on your ideal changes to repentance?

Joy_Division

FoolishOptimist wrote: »

These are some interesting perspectives. There’s no denying that in the right circumstances, Repentance is the most powerful sustain tool of all classes, but failing access to large piles of dead corpses, it also becomes the most useless. Part of me likes the balance of this, but the other part of me recognises that we don’t typically have access to the stam return when we need it most.

@Joy_Division do you have any thoughts on your ideal changes to repentance?

Yes, change it back to how it originally worked.

How much could ESO could have progressed and evolved if ZOS hadn;t spent so much time, effort, and resources nerfing things like Repentance and Crystal Frags and then spending patch after patch after patch trying to fix the problems they created in the first place with the unnecessary nerfs.

RavenSworn

I have a sneaking suspicion that perhaps ZoS wanted to do a blanket nerf on the power creep but instead killed off a number of builds and skills instead. /shrug, its like bringing a sledge hammer to a surgery.

aeowulf

There was nothing wrong with Repentance pre-morrowind Templar tanks could of used a little extra though for the times when there weren't corpses around but hey ***. None of the class based sustain changes were good (Except on my health stacker DK tank, who got more back with those changes - the class that didn't need more...) but again, even that was situational.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

aeowulf wrote: »

There was nothing wrong with Repentance pre-morrowind Templar tanks could of used a little extra though for the times when there weren't corpses around but hey ***. None of the class based sustain changes were good (Except on my health stacker DK tank, who got more back with those changes - the class that didn't need more...) but again, even that was situational.

Pre Morrowind repentance made Templars head and shoulders above all other healers.