My opinion as to what's wrong with ESOs combat.

MaxwellC

This is my opinion & you're all welcomed to break it down however you want to.

My issue with ESOs combat is that as of late it seems they're trying to make it so every class is able to perform the same role as good as the traditional role e.g DK as a Tank, Templar as a Healer,etc.
Now I think sure all classes should be able to perform all roles but some classes should be able to perform that role better because that is the whole reason to have a class.
ESO is changing skills, nerfing others, & buffing others so all classes can do all roles near the same capacity; If this is the case then why don't we simply get rid of classes all together?

I honestly feel that we need to go back to where classes had their identity i.e 1.5/1.6. This is not to say that all the clear OP aspects return but a return of what made classes the best for the role to return.
We cannot keep trying to make everything equal & then call for more class identity.

-Discuss & inb4 "Okay" responses

Ragnarock41

I still think having classes is nothing but a limitation at this point. They threw identity out of the window so might aswell throw the current class system for a new no class system where we only have roles.

Starlock

Huh. The thing that jumps out at me personally is that it’s dumb to cancel an ability and have it still do damage somehow. No other game I’ve played works like that. It makes no sense.

I don’t feel that allowing different classes to play similar roles destroys identity. Then again, I’m also a gamer who explicitly focuses on creating unique identities for my characters. I face challenges doing this, but it definitely isn’t because the class system supports all classes being able to do all roles. That actually enhances my ability to create unique identities. My nightblade healer, for example, works very differently from my warden healer.

usmguy1234

MaxwellC wrote: »

This is my opinion & you're all welcomed to break it down however you want to.

My issue with ESOs combat is that as of late it seems they're trying to make it so every class is able to perform the same role as good as the traditional role e.g DK as a Tank, Templar as a Healer,etc.
Now I think sure all classes should be able to perform all roles but some classes should be able to perform that role better because that is the whole reason to have a class.
ESO is changing skills, nerfing others, & buffing others so all classes can do all roles near the same capacity; If this is the case then why don't we simply get rid of classes all together?

I honestly feel that we need to go back to where classes had their identity i.e 1.5/1.6. This is not to say that all the clear OP aspects return but a return of what made classes the best for the role to return.
We cannot keep trying to make everything equal & then call for more class identity.

-Discuss & inb4 "Okay" responses

Agree 100%. Also, why punish classes for doing what they were designed to do. Another huge thorn is the fact that they didn't bother to balance pvp and pvp separately.

Wifeaggro13

MaxwellC wrote: »

This is my opinion & you're all welcomed to break it down however you want to.

My issue with ESOs combat is that as of late it seems they're trying to make it so every class is able to perform the same role as good as the traditional role e.g DK as a Tank, Templar as a Healer,etc.
Now I think sure all classes should be able to perform all roles but some classes should be able to perform that role better because that is the whole reason to have a class.
ESO is changing skills, nerfing others, & buffing others so all classes can do all roles near the same capacity; If this is the case then why don't we simply get rid of classes all together?

I honestly feel that we need to go back to where classes had their identity i.e 1.5/1.6. This is not to say that all the clear OP aspects return but a return of what made classes the best for the role to return.
We cannot keep trying to make everything equal & then call for more class identity.

-Discuss & inb4 "Okay" responses

many many players long for 1.6 ESO is now a snow flake

Valrien

Starlock wrote: »

Huh. The thing that jumps out at me personally is that it’s dumb to cancel an ability and have it still do damage somehow. No other game I’ve played works like that. It makes no sense.

I don’t feel that allowing different classes to play similar roles destroys identity. Then again, I’m also a gamer who explicitly focuses on creating unique identities for my characters. I face challenges doing this, but it definitely isn’t because the class system supports all classes being able to do all roles. That actually enhances my ability to create unique identities. My nightblade healer, for example, works very differently from my warden healer.

Plenty of other games work that way, especially if the combat is GCD based since the animation may not always finish playing before the next starts.

And class identity after 1.6 has been destroyed effectively

LiquidPony

Starlock wrote: »

Huh. The thing that jumps out at me personally is that it’s dumb to cancel an ability and have it still do damage somehow. No other game I’ve played works like that. It makes no sense.

I don’t feel that allowing different classes to play similar roles destroys identity. Then again, I’m also a gamer who explicitly focuses on creating unique identities for my characters. I face challenges doing this, but it definitely isn’t because the class system supports all classes being able to do all roles. That actually enhances my ability to create unique identities. My nightblade healer, for example, works very differently from my warden healer.

Didn't take long for the "ermahgerd animation canceling" response.

No other game works like that?

League of Legends has animation canceling. DotA has animation canceling. Smite has animation canceling. Overwatch has animation canceling. Fortnite has animation canceling. Breath of the Wild has animation canceling. Mario 64 had animation canceling. Street Fighter IV (and many other entries in the series) has animation canceling (as do many other fighting games ... Guilty Gear, Killer Instinct, Mortal Kombat, etc ... look up "Roman Cancel" in Guilty Gear which is a form of animation canceling that is a core gameplay mechanic). Super Smash Brothers has animation canceling. Plenty of FPS games have animation canceling in the form of reload/swap canceling.

It's funny ... go read Monster Hunter forums or Warframe forums or Final Fantasy XIV forums and you'll find plenty of people saying things like "I really wish I could cancel my animations, I press a button and some long animation winds up and then the boss hits me with some random attack and I can't dodge or block it. Please add animation canceling."

MaxwellC

My problem is that we keep on trying to blend the classes into this all purpose form where each class has the near same capacity to perform all roles evenly instead of having one class have a better time doing X supportive role or one class doing X as an offensive role.

This even stems to PvP where people want for example DKs to have high mobility so we can be similar to that of a sorcerer instead of playing to our strengths and further bolstering what makes our class our class.
As years progressed the classes lose their identities, now they cannot stand on what made them unique & a challenge before.

Strider__Roshin

The more counterplay the better. This game was a lot more enjoyable when you could reflect meteor and interrupt soul assault.

Yakidafi

@MaxwellC you say classes are for certain roles. I never saw it as that.

I have always seen it as skills are suited for certain roles.

And I have seen that every class have skills that will enable them to do every role in a different way from how another class do it.

I think skill uniqueness rather than class is important for the game and that is what have given classes their identity. By performing different, easier in certain situations.

Starlock

LiquidPony wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Huh. The thing that jumps out at me personally is that it’s dumb to cancel an ability and have it still do damage somehow. No other game I’ve played works like that. It makes no sense.

I don’t feel that allowing different classes to play similar roles destroys identity. Then again, I’m also a gamer who explicitly focuses on creating unique identities for my characters. I face challenges doing this, but it definitely isn’t because the class system supports all classes being able to do all roles. That actually enhances my ability to create unique identities. My nightblade healer, for example, works very differently from my warden healer.

Didn't take long for the "ermahgerd animation canceling" response.

No other game works like that?

League of Legends has animation canceling. DotA has animation canceling. Smite has animation canceling. Overwatch has animation canceling. Fortnite has animation canceling. Breath of the Wild has animation canceling. Mario 64 had animation canceling. Street Fighter IV (and many other entries in the series) has animation canceling (as do many other fighting games ... Guilty Gear, Killer Instinct, Mortal Kombat, etc ... look up "Roman Cancel" in Guilty Gear which is a form of animation canceling that is a core gameplay mechanic). Super Smash Brothers has animation canceling. Plenty of FPS games have animation canceling in the form of reload/swap canceling.

It's funny ... go read Monster Hunter forums or Warframe forums or Final Fantasy XIV forums and you'll find plenty of people saying things like "I really wish I could cancel my animations, I press a button and some long animation winds up and then the boss hits me with some random attack and I can't dodge or block it. Please add animation canceling."

You completely missed my point if you think that was an “ermahgerd animation canceling” response. You need to read the whole sentance someone writes before responding.

The thing that jumps out at me personally is that it’s dumb to cancel an ability and have it still do damage somehow.

Last time I checked, if I reload my guns in Overwatch I’m not still shooting bullets out of them somehow. Same in every other FPS I’ve played. I don’t play any of that other stuff you mentioned.

Mr_Walker

In PvE it's crowd control, every mob seems to have CC. Waiting for its introduction on mudcrabs.

phermitgb

MaxwellC wrote: »

This is my opinion & you're all welcomed to break it down however you want to.

My issue with ESOs combat is that as of late it seems they're trying to make it so every class is able to perform the same role as good as the traditional role e.g DK as a Tank, Templar as a Healer,etc.
Now I think sure all classes should be able to perform all roles but some classes should be able to perform that role better because that is the whole reason to have a class.
ESO is changing skills, nerfing others, & buffing others so all classes can do all roles near the same capacity; If this is the case then why don't we simply get rid of classes all together?

I honestly feel that we need to go back to where classes had their identity i.e 1.5/1.6. This is not to say that all the clear OP aspects return but a return of what made classes the best for the role to return.
We cannot keep trying to make everything equal & then call for more class identity.

-Discuss & inb4 "Okay" responses

I disagree fundamentally with *this* statement...

"Now I think sure all classes should be able to perform all roles but some classes should be able to perform that role better because that is the whole reason to have a class."

That is ONE reason to have a class. However, like some above have mentioned, one of the things I very much looked forward to with ESO is the knowledge that as a Nightblade, I didn't HAVE to be a dps. I could be a tank, or even a healer, or I could tell holy-trinity roles to take a flying leap and play a mirage-dodging health stealing AOE knifer. I LOVED the idea that any player could take any class and with some effort arranging their skills and gear, could perform any role they wanted, and swap relatively easily between roles mid-dungeon to adjust tactics for a different kind of boss or to make up for a certain lack.

Truth be told, I STILL believe that much of the game COULD be played this way if any group actually decided they were all going to commit to it.

Roles are great. It's nice, when you have a lack of familiarity with a game system or when you lack a certain degree of imagination or when you really, REALLY wanna eke every last ounce of maximum numbers out of your build - roles help trim down the relatively confusing array of options, they help you narrow down your choices and make something familiar and comfortable.

And the ESO classes allow that. But they ALSO allow, or at least we got the impression they were supposed to, a great range of experimentation that was still comparable to the people that played traditional roles.

In my mind, at least, the reason for classes in ESO wasn't to establish one class as SUPREME over another in a particular role, they were supposed to add FLAVOR to whatever type of character you played. The NB's, if they dps'd, would dps with a particular style - and if they healed, they would heal with a particular shadowy vaguely vampiric style, and if they tanked they would tank with a curiously but still exciting stealthy/dodgy style. And Templars would be able to do all the same things to the same degree, but they would dps with flashy bright light and holy flame, and tank with glowy forcefields, and heal with...I dunno...streams of holy light and whatnot. And so on for sorcs, and dk's, and etc...

so, since you sorta invited opposing opinions - here is mine. Do with it what you will.

Xarico

LiquidPony wrote: »

Didn't take long for the "ermahgerd animation canceling" response.

No other game works like that?

League of Legends has animation canceling. DotA has animation canceling. Smite has animation canceling. Overwatch has animation canceling. Fortnite has animation canceling. Breath of the Wild has animation canceling. Mario 64 had animation canceling. Street Fighter IV (and many other entries in the series) has animation canceling (as do many other fighting games ... Guilty Gear, Killer Instinct, Mortal Kombat, etc ... look up "Roman Cancel" in Guilty Gear which is a form of animation canceling that is a core gameplay mechanic). Super Smash Brothers has animation canceling. Plenty of FPS games have animation canceling in the form of reload/swap canceling.

They have animation canceling, yes. The difference is, in those other games AC is infinitely more challenging to pull off and still have the ability damage/effect go through; especially since in ESO it's not challenging at all.

LiquidPony wrote: »

It's funny ... go read Monster Hunter forums or Warframe forums or Final Fantasy XIV forums and you'll find plenty of people saying things like "I really wish I could cancel my animations, I press a button and some long animation winds up and then the boss hits me with some random attack and I can't dodge or block it. Please add animation canceling."

It's indeed funny how people wish to face no negative consequences of their own poor tactical decisions instead of learning to make better decisions. If you have a skill with a long wind-up animation, you shouldn't be using this skill unless you have a safe opening and/or a support ally ready to heal or shield you - or unless you think it's worth it to take the risk, knowing and accepting that you can get hit or killed in the attempt.

exeeter702

Please read, i know its a bit lengthy....

Classes exist in modern MMOs, ESO included, to offer a variety of different thematic and mechanical play styles to approach the various different challenges among the 3 core roles that encompass group play.

You are misusing the term identity in this regard. Every class has their own distinct identity, only its thematic and in how it plays, not in what exclusive tools it has access to that others do not.

Classes are being made to function uniquely from one another (with varying levels of success mind you) so that your gameplay approach to tanking a trial with a NB with be vastly different from doing so with a DK or Templar. etc. It is entirely HOW you approach the role that creates the variety. Again.. a NB, Warden and DK tank will all play different from one another.

The second you provide a unique tool to a single class, of which said tool is MANDATORY for the viability of that role, historically in ESO we can point to the most obvious example of this and how it has changed.... Templars for most of the games lifespan have been the definitive healer, not because of a "dedicated healing skill line" (which has always only ever been a half truth if im being honest here) but because they had exclusive access to the ability to provide resources to allies, this is as integral to the role of healer as a taunt is to a tank. This simple fact almost completely invalidated ANY of the other classes from attempting the role in an end game environment.

Now, you might be asking yourself "what is the problem with templars being the best healer by design?". well, the simple answer is everything when you consider ESOs class structure as a whole. There are only 5 core classes in ESO and of those 5, the systems in place allow for their to essentially be 2 versions a stamina and magicka version which basically results in there being 10 unique outlets for a player to choose in regards to class. Lets break that down for a second and look at how limited the options are....

Stamina Templar - DPS
Magicka Templar - Healer
Stamina NB - DPS
Magicka NB - DPS
Stamina Sorc -DPS
Magicka Sorc - DPS
Stamina DK - Tank
Magicka DK - DPS
Stamina Warden - DPS
Magicka Warden - DPS

This is the mmo that you are advocating for. One with essentially 10 class options of which only 1 is a viable tank and 1 is a viable healer. That is terrible. As opposed to an mmo with 5 healers, 5 tanks and 10 dps. I would much rather take the later.

The various skills in ESO are specifically designed around being analogous to one another. Simply put, this means skills, whether they belong to a class skill line, weapon skill line, guild skill line etc etc are made to mirror each other in functionality but differ in application Its ts also VERY important to understand that those aforementioned categories are ALL weighted the same (a class skill is not inherently superior to its analogous weapon, guild, world skill counterpart). An example i often use is the Shards vs Orbs debate. Both are made to restore allies resources yet have very different secondary perks and criteria for which they excel over one another. Shards is very fast and accurate, meaning the templar can precisely provide the synergy to a specific ally without delay or much repositioning. The trade off is that only one application of shards can be on the floor at a given time, therefore for each ally that needs the resource you have to time it and commit a new cast for each target in need. Orbs on the contrary is very slow, and risks not reaching its target in time yet the orbs themselves have a much wider application range in that the caster can field them for multiple allies without having to drop the same amount of time outside of a potential healing window. In this example, THAT is one of the defining characteristics of a templar. Do you value the accuracy of the shards, is the tank really the only recipient in need of resource for a particular trial or group makeup? This is what your decision is based around.

This is how all skills in the game are balanced against one another, regardless of whether or not they belong to a class or if its simply a fighters guild skill vs a weapon skill. They encompass a similar goal with a different form of application / use.

If this were an mmo that did not adhere to the holy trinity, where group content was wildly varied in what makes a full group effective, im talking FF11 levels of broad strokes here, where you have countless different makeups and pseudo roles like puller and buffer and where scenarios in which some classes (jobs) simply had no place being, was accepted because of just how many options were available and the freedom to not bind a player to said class on a single character. ESO is not that game, and trying to shoehorn classes into specific performance niches only serves to make the game less interesting when your available class pool is limited and your group content is operating on the holy trinity of Tank Healer Damage dealer.

You often hear the complaints about class homogenization, due to unique tools being spread out / made available to all. And while in some small cases, that might be true, the use of homogenization is used VERY generously on these forums. In truth its not nearly as egregious as most make it out to be.

Do you pick the magicka templar because you want to be the most optimal numerically superior healer? Or do you pick the templar because you are attracted to the idea of being more resilient / protective and less mobile while using holy magic and harnessing the power of the sun? this being their identity mind you. ZOS would likely prefer your choice come from the later i assure you.

Emma_Overload

Starlock wrote: »

Huh. The thing that jumps out at me personally is that it’s dumb to cancel an ability and have it still do damage somehow. No other game I’ve played works like that. It makes no sense.

I don’t feel that allowing different classes to play similar roles destroys identity. Then again, I’m also a gamer who explicitly focuses on creating unique identities for my characters. I face challenges doing this, but it definitely isn’t because the class system supports all classes being able to do all roles. That actually enhances my ability to create unique identities. My nightblade healer, for example, works very differently from my warden healer.

If you cancel an ability it does NOT do damage. I'm guessing what you were trying to say was that abilities do damage even if their ANIMATION is cancelled. Animation canceling makes perfect sense in a game with such short cooldowns.

Haven't you read any of the HUNDREDS of threads on this topic since 2014? This has all been explained over and over and over.

ak_pvp

Chains, CCs and the likes are all communized for everyone.

When will they do that to cloak I wonder.

Sylosi

LiquidPony wrote: »

League of Legends has animation canceling. DotA has animation canceling. Smite has animation canceling. Overwatch has animation canceling. Fortnite has animation canceling. Breath of the Wild has animation canceling. Mario 64 had animation canceling. Street Fighter IV (and many other entries in the series) has animation canceling (as do many other fighting games ... Guilty Gear, Killer Instinct, Mortal Kombat, etc ... look up "Roman Cancel" in Guilty Gear which is a form of animation canceling that is a core gameplay mechanic). Super Smash Brothers has animation canceling. Plenty of FPS games have animation canceling in the form of reload/swap canceling.

Well I can't speak for every game, but in most games I've played animation cancelling does not "work" like in ESO and that is the problem, in most games ani cancelling involves cutting the end of the animation to go into the next skill quicker, not cutting off pretty much the entire animation.

If I go play Streetfighter 4 for example and do a kick along the floor what animation cancelling allows in that is once I've made the kick the animation continues a bit (you pull your leg back along the floor for a little), that is the bit you can cancel, that then allows you to go into the next move faster.

So the difference is the opponent gets to see most of the animation this allows for skilled play because it allows a good player to react to that animation, in ESO on the other hand I can cancel say reverse slice pretty much as soon as I cast it, so there is basically no meaningful animation because you can cancel so soon, this is laughably broken in a supposed "action" combat game where you are meant to react to your opponents animations.

So essentially ESO has a trash tier ani cancelling system that is very low skilled, not just in that much of the time there is no meaningful animation for your opponent to react to, but also because a lot of the time you can cancel so early there is a massive window to cancel which is a joke compared to lots of fighting games where you have to be very precise due to the small window, learn precise timings for different moves and even learn different timings for different characters.

LiquidPony wrote: »

I really wish I could cancel my animations, I press a button and some long animation winds up and then the boss hits me with some random attack and I can't dodge or block it. Please add animation canceling."

You don't require animation cancelling for that in a game, you just require skill cancelling. Furthermore in some games that don't allow either that is part of the skill-cap, that you have to make a judgement can I get this get this skill off at this time, do I need to position myself better to guarantee I can get this skill off, etc.

LiquidPony

Starlock wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Huh. The thing that jumps out at me personally is that it’s dumb to cancel an ability and have it still do damage somehow. No other game I’ve played works like that. It makes no sense.

I don’t feel that allowing different classes to play similar roles destroys identity. Then again, I’m also a gamer who explicitly focuses on creating unique identities for my characters. I face challenges doing this, but it definitely isn’t because the class system supports all classes being able to do all roles. That actually enhances my ability to create unique identities. My nightblade healer, for example, works very differently from my warden healer.

Didn't take long for the "ermahgerd animation canceling" response.

No other game works like that?

League of Legends has animation canceling. DotA has animation canceling. Smite has animation canceling. Overwatch has animation canceling. Fortnite has animation canceling. Breath of the Wild has animation canceling. Mario 64 had animation canceling. Street Fighter IV (and many other entries in the series) has animation canceling (as do many other fighting games ... Guilty Gear, Killer Instinct, Mortal Kombat, etc ... look up "Roman Cancel" in Guilty Gear which is a form of animation canceling that is a core gameplay mechanic). Super Smash Brothers has animation canceling. Plenty of FPS games have animation canceling in the form of reload/swap canceling.

It's funny ... go read Monster Hunter forums or Warframe forums or Final Fantasy XIV forums and you'll find plenty of people saying things like "I really wish I could cancel my animations, I press a button and some long animation winds up and then the boss hits me with some random attack and I can't dodge or block it. Please add animation canceling."

You completely missed my point if you think that was an “ermahgerd animation canceling” response. You need to read the whole sentance someone writes before responding.

The thing that jumps out at me personally is that it’s dumb to cancel an ability and have it still do damage somehow.

Last time I checked, if I reload my guns in Overwatch I’m not still shooting bullets out of them somehow. Same in every other FPS I’ve played. I don’t play any of that other stuff you mentioned.

Animation canceling in Overwatch isn't limited to reload animations. Look up Genji right click/melee or slash/dash/melee combos or Hanzo ulti animation cancel.

The idea that canceling an animation would cancel the damage doesn't make sense. The damage already happened. That's why you can cancel it. Animation canceling in ESO is effectively combo chaining. You don't need to do the follow-through of a light attack because you've chained it into another attack.

Xarico wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Didn't take long for the "ermahgerd animation canceling" response.

No other game works like that?

League of Legends has animation canceling. DotA has animation canceling. Smite has animation canceling. Overwatch has animation canceling. Fortnite has animation canceling. Breath of the Wild has animation canceling. Mario 64 had animation canceling. Street Fighter IV (and many other entries in the series) has animation canceling (as do many other fighting games ... Guilty Gear, Killer Instinct, Mortal Kombat, etc ... look up "Roman Cancel" in Guilty Gear which is a form of animation canceling that is a core gameplay mechanic). Super Smash Brothers has animation canceling. Plenty of FPS games have animation canceling in the form of reload/swap canceling.

They have animation canceling, yes. The difference is, in those other games AC is infinitely more challenging to pull off and still have the ability damage/effect go through; especially since in ESO it's not challenging at all.

LiquidPony wrote: »

It's funny ... go read Monster Hunter forums or Warframe forums or Final Fantasy XIV forums and you'll find plenty of people saying things like "I really wish I could cancel my animations, I press a button and some long animation winds up and then the boss hits me with some random attack and I can't dodge or block it. Please add animation canceling."

It's indeed funny how people wish to face no negative consequences of their own poor tactical decisions instead of learning to make better decisions. If you have a skill with a long wind-up animation, you shouldn't be using this skill unless you have a safe opening and/or a support ally ready to heal or shield you - or unless you think it's worth it to take the risk, knowing and accepting that you can get hit or killed in the attempt.

This isn't relevant in ESO. Skills with truly long animations are almost all channeled, and canceling those animations does in fact partially or completely cancel the effect. Skills that are instant cast (notice the key word "instant") can be canceled to block or dodge or bash or bar swap if necessary. And regardless, this is a silly and altogether moot point. Players don't "wish to face no negative blah blah blah," that's just the way it is. That's the way ESO combat is designed. If you just fired Endless Hail as The Warrior turns to Chuck his shield at you, you're just dead if you can't cancel it with a block. If you just hit Blockade and S'kinrai and his adds Jesus Beam your tank and DPS during conversions, they're dead if you can't bash cancel. If you just hit Rearming Trap as The Mage drops a meteor on you, you're dead if you can't block cancel.

Four years later and people are still beating this dead horse. It's preposterous.

Sparr0w

LiquidPony wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Huh. The thing that jumps out at me personally is that it’s dumb to cancel an ability and have it still do damage somehow. No other game I’ve played works like that. It makes no sense.

I don’t feel that allowing different classes to play similar roles destroys identity. Then again, I’m also a gamer who explicitly focuses on creating unique identities for my characters. I face challenges doing this, but it definitely isn’t because the class system supports all classes being able to do all roles. That actually enhances my ability to create unique identities. My nightblade healer, for example, works very differently from my warden healer.

Didn't take long for the "ermahgerd animation canceling" response.

No other game works like that?

League of Legends has animation canceling. DotA has animation canceling. Smite has animation canceling. Overwatch has animation canceling. Fortnite has animation canceling. Breath of the Wild has animation canceling. Mario 64 had animation canceling. Street Fighter IV (and many other entries in the series) has animation canceling (as do many other fighting games ... Guilty Gear, Killer Instinct, Mortal Kombat, etc ... look up "Roman Cancel" in Guilty Gear which is a form of animation canceling that is a core gameplay mechanic). Super Smash Brothers has animation canceling. Plenty of FPS games have animation canceling in the form of reload/swap canceling.

It's funny ... go read Monster Hunter forums or Warframe forums or Final Fantasy XIV forums and you'll find plenty of people saying things like "I really wish I could cancel my animations, I press a button and some long animation winds up and then the boss hits me with some random attack and I can't dodge or block it. Please add animation canceling."

You completely missed my point if you think that was an “ermahgerd animation canceling” response. You need to read the whole sentance someone writes before responding.

The thing that jumps out at me personally is that it’s dumb to cancel an ability and have it still do damage somehow.

Last time I checked, if I reload my guns in Overwatch I’m not still shooting bullets out of them somehow. Same in every other FPS I’ve played. I don’t play any of that other stuff you mentioned.

Animation canceling in Overwatch isn't limited to reload animations. Look up Genji right click/melee or slash/dash/melee combos or Hanzo ulti animation cancel.

The idea that canceling an animation would cancel the damage doesn't make sense. The damage already happened. That's why you can cancel it. Animation canceling in ESO is effectively combo chaining. You don't need to do the follow-through of a light attack because you've chained it into another attack.

Xarico wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Didn't take long for the "ermahgerd animation canceling" response.

No other game works like that?

League of Legends has animation canceling. DotA has animation canceling. Smite has animation canceling. Overwatch has animation canceling. Fortnite has animation canceling. Breath of the Wild has animation canceling. Mario 64 had animation canceling. Street Fighter IV (and many other entries in the series) has animation canceling (as do many other fighting games ... Guilty Gear, Killer Instinct, Mortal Kombat, etc ... look up "Roman Cancel" in Guilty Gear which is a form of animation canceling that is a core gameplay mechanic). Super Smash Brothers has animation canceling. Plenty of FPS games have animation canceling in the form of reload/swap canceling.

They have animation canceling, yes. The difference is, in those other games AC is infinitely more challenging to pull off and still have the ability damage/effect go through; especially since in ESO it's not challenging at all.

LiquidPony wrote: »

It's funny ... go read Monster Hunter forums or Warframe forums or Final Fantasy XIV forums and you'll find plenty of people saying things like "I really wish I could cancel my animations, I press a button and some long animation winds up and then the boss hits me with some random attack and I can't dodge or block it. Please add animation canceling."

It's indeed funny how people wish to face no negative consequences of their own poor tactical decisions instead of learning to make better decisions. If you have a skill with a long wind-up animation, you shouldn't be using this skill unless you have a safe opening and/or a support ally ready to heal or shield you - or unless you think it's worth it to take the risk, knowing and accepting that you can get hit or killed in the attempt.

This isn't relevant in ESO. Skills with truly long animations are almost all channeled, and canceling those animations does in fact partially or completely cancel the effect. Skills that are instant cast (notice the key word "instant") can be canceled to block or dodge or bash or bar swap if necessary. And regardless, this is a silly and altogether moot point. Players don't "wish to face no negative blah blah blah," that's just the way it is. That's the way ESO combat is designed. If you just fired Endless Hail as The Warrior turns to Chuck his shield at you, you're just dead if you can't cancel it with a block. If you just hit Blockade and S'kinrai and his adds Jesus Beam your tank and DPS during conversions, they're dead if you can't bash cancel. If you just hit Rearming Trap as The Mage drops a meteor on you, you're dead if you can't block cancel.

Four years later and people are still beating this dead horse. It's preposterous.

Someone gets it

JumpmanLane

Starlock wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Huh. The thing that jumps out at me personally is that it’s dumb to cancel an ability and have it still do damage somehow. No other game I’ve played works like that. It makes no sense.

I don’t feel that allowing different classes to play similar roles destroys identity. Then again, I’m also a gamer who explicitly focuses on creating unique identities for my characters. I face challenges doing this, but it definitely isn’t because the class system supports all classes being able to do all roles. That actually enhances my ability to create unique identities. My nightblade healer, for example, works very differently from my warden healer.

Didn't take long for the "ermahgerd animation canceling" response.

No other game works like that?

League of Legends has animation canceling. DotA has animation canceling. Smite has animation canceling. Overwatch has animation canceling. Fortnite has animation canceling. Breath of the Wild has animation canceling. Mario 64 had animation canceling. Street Fighter IV (and many other entries in the series) has animation canceling (as do many other fighting games ... Guilty Gear, Killer Instinct, Mortal Kombat, etc ... look up "Roman Cancel" in Guilty Gear which is a form of animation canceling that is a core gameplay mechanic). Super Smash Brothers has animation canceling. Plenty of FPS games have animation canceling in the form of reload/swap canceling.

It's funny ... go read Monster Hunter forums or Warframe forums or Final Fantasy XIV forums and you'll find plenty of people saying things like "I really wish I could cancel my animations, I press a button and some long animation winds up and then the boss hits me with some random attack and I can't dodge or block it. Please add animation canceling."

You completely missed my point if you think that was an “ermahgerd animation canceling” response. You need to read the whole sentance someone writes before responding.

The thing that jumps out at me personally is that it’s dumb to cancel an ability and have it still do damage somehow.

Last time I checked, if I reload my guns in Overwatch I’m not still shooting bullets out of them somehow. Same in every other FPS I’ve played. I don’t play any of that other stuff you mentioned.

Animation canceling works. It’s in the game for a reason (should you suddenly need to block). ZOS isn’t going to change it. Learn it or get reckt.

Axoinus

What? Classes are not just a cosmetic option?

Starlock

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Animation canceling works. It’s in the game for a reason (should you suddenly need to block). ZOS isn’t going to change it. Learn it or get reckt.

Another person who didn't actually read what I wrote, because this isn't at all what I was talking about.

Mr_Walker wrote: »

It's indeed funny how people wish to face no negative consequences of their own poor tactical decisions instead of learning to make better decisions. If you have a skill with a long wind-up animation, you shouldn't be using this skill unless you have a safe opening and/or a support ally ready to heal or shield you - or unless you think it's worth it to take the risk, knowing and accepting that you can get hit or killed in the attempt.

I don't know if I'd quite put it that way, but it is definitely the thing that strikes me as the most bizarre about the ESO combat system. For a long time, I didn't realize how liberal this game was with animation cancelling, so I used abilities strategically like you talk about here. If an enemy was winding up a heavy attack, I focused on blocking because I thought I couldn't get off a damaging ability before the attack hit. Turns out I don't have to do any of that, because I can block in mid-swing with a sword for example yet the sword still hits and does damage somehow. In any other online game, if something like that happened I would assume I'm lagging. In this game? I don't know what to call it other than bad design. From what I understand, the developers basically couldn't fix the problem, but I don't put much stock into hearsay.

MaxwellC

@Yakidafi
Never said classes are for certain roles so I'd like it if you didn't assume that. I clearly stated that some classes should be able to perform certain roles better instead of going down this hill where we try to equalize each class so they can perform the role at the same capacity.

Yakidafi

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Yakidafi
Never said classes are for certain roles so I'd like it if you didn't assume that. I clearly stated that some classes should be able to perform certain roles better instead of going down this hill where we try to equalize each class so they can perform the role at the same capacity.

I don't understand.



Edit: I mean you "break it down how you want" to "DON'T assume that about me".

Was the first sentence in op just a courtesy thing and I was not supposed to write how I see the class layout. Was this the only notable thing my post said

"I did not say certain classes are for certain roles" to "they should just be better at them".

Is this not a straight up contradiction in the same post?

I think it is easier to perform good at the tank role as a dk because of the dk skills/passives, but I can do it on other classes in a different way.

Same with Templar as healer.

I think equalize in performance is good but if they give the classes different ways to do it. Not as in giving nb a dk dragon blood copy.

idk

It’s still the case that no clsss can come close to tanking as a DO can. Even a Warden does not have the utility to the same degree.

As for healing the Templar still shines strong with the Warden a close second.

Classes still have ther identity.

Edit: it wasn’t all the long ago that MattF stated that they still planned for some classes to perform better in certain roles such as the DK tanking and the Templar healing. This was during the leadup to Morrowind.

Second edit: yes. It might have been Wrobel that said this.

Silver_Strider

I disagree.

The problem isn't that each class is being made to fit every role as each other. The problem is that each class is being made to fit each role, in the exact same way without any difference between them. If ZOS would adjust content and each class's toolkit to be unique to it when performing whatever role it desired, we'd be better off but ZOs just gives each class the same exact tools and calls it a day.

Moloch1514

Wrobel

MaxwellC

@Yakidafi Yeah break down my opinion in how it doesn't make sense or how it does make sense but nonetheless have a debate not insert words into my mouth.

You stated I had said that one class should do a particular role whereas I stated one class should perform that role better than other classes but nonetheless all classes should obviously be able to perform that role. I am not sure how you fail to see what I am stating but alright.

So to reiterate what I clearly stated; One class should excel in a particular role where other classes could still perform that role but not up to the same capacity.
*Just because you put a picture in your statement does not make it more valid.

Yakidafi

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Yakidafi Yeah break down my opinion in how it doesn't make sense or how it does make sense but nonetheless have a debate not insert words into my mouth.

You stated I had said that one class should do a particular role whereas I stated one class should perform that role better than other classes but nonetheless all classes should obviously be able to perform that role. I am not sure how you fail to see what I am stating but alright.

So to reiterate what I clearly stated; One class should excel in a particular role where other classes could still perform that role but not up to the same capacity.
*Just because you put a picture in your statement does not make it more valid.

No, I get what you are saying.

I fail do understand the difference between one class is for a certain role and one class is better at a role. To me it leads to the same outcome.

I use memes to enforce what I am feeling.

Linaleah

Yakidafi wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Yakidafi Yeah break down my opinion in how it doesn't make sense or how it does make sense but nonetheless have a debate not insert words into my mouth.

You stated I had said that one class should do a particular role whereas I stated one class should perform that role better than other classes but nonetheless all classes should obviously be able to perform that role. I am not sure how you fail to see what I am stating but alright.

So to reiterate what I clearly stated; One class should excel in a particular role where other classes could still perform that role but not up to the same capacity.
*Just because you put a picture in your statement does not make it more valid.

No, I get what you are saying.

I fail do understand the difference between one class is for a certain role and one class is better at a role. To me it leads to the same outcome.

I use memes to enforce what I am feeling.

this. class identity IMO should not be tied to which roles you are better at. it should be tied to HOW those roles are performed. what kind of healer you are. do you focus more on over time healing, or burst, which buss do you bring to the table, how your class abilities synergize which each other, etc.

the problem with ESO classes lately, IMO is that so much is dependent on skill lines that every class gets, which is what makes classes feel so homogenous. not becasue each class can perform all the 3 roles, but rather that they do so with the exact same skills that every other class uses. there are a few exceptions here and there, but for the most part too many minmax specs involve using very few class specific abilities.

I will say one thing, ZoS seems to be working on it, but giving more class specific options to different roles. but seriously... when you have one class do a specific role significantly better then all the other classes? guess what? all but the most casual players will ONLY accept that class in that role into their groups. that... is not only outdated design, its outdated for a reason.