Brief feedback of PvP in its current state

Adernath

I play PvP since open beta, sometimes more, sometimes less. Still I would like to drop my feedback on its current state:

There needs to be a balance between high damage output, defense, mobility and healing. It is very bad design in my opinion if it is possible to create certain meta builds which can perform everything at once and everyone else who is not running on these specific meta builds (for example because CP and abilities are used for competitive PvE) have a large disadvantage. I do not know any other popular game where this is canon.

For example in most other games I've played, equipping heavy armor makes you much more tankier, but you loose a big chunk of mobility, damage and usually also healing. Light armor is on the opposite spectrum, while medium is a balance of both. Very easy concept. But here, kiting in open sight is literally impossible, which gives light armor users or ranged damage dealers no way to defend themselves effectively by kiting. This was clear to me right from the start in open beta, as I saw that e.g. critical charge can be spammed at will, but still I want to say it is sad that a kiting style class is not really possible to play - and no, I am not talking about running around obstacles spamming pots and forward momentum in one of these cheesy builds. By contrary, there has to be dimish returns for CC immunity or other drawbacks. That it is possible to run around with around 95% CC immunity uptime is really not good design.

In my opinion there need to be a lot of work to make PvP more diversified and interesting, so people can play on a mixture of different *working* builds.

Waffennacht

People just QQ until CC's got nerfed, now you want more?!

Lol, everyone wants something different

Some want it impossible to kill them if they never make a mistake (removing CCs, proc sets, burst damage)

Others want to have the ability to stop all counter play

Some want healers to be prominent (who the heck is this?!) and therefore class defenses will probably be gutted.

You want the kite abilities? Well people want sorc to be deleted, or at least kept around only as a scapegoat.

Warden also want a CC, but screw them, they already spent their money right?

Speaking of money, some people want ESO+ only privileges.

People are generally ignorant, and when given what they want usually destroy themselves and everything around them.

Adernath

Waffennacht wrote: »

People just QQ until CC's got nerfed, now you want more?!

Lol, everyone wants something different

Some want it impossible to kill them if they never make a mistake (removing CCs, proc sets, burst damage)

Others want to have the ability to stop all counter play

Some want healers to be prominent (who the heck is this?!) and therefore class defenses will probably be gutted.

You want the kite abilities? Well people want sorc to be deleted, or at least kept around only as a scapegoat.

Warden also want a CC, but screw them, they already spent their money right?

Speaking of money, some people want ESO+ only privileges.

People are generally ignorant, and when given what they want usually destroy themselves and everything around them.

That's life. People give their feedback and opinion, and so I gave mine. I don't know if you played PvP on different MMOs like me, in which PvP is definitively much more diversified, but then you would understand what I am talking about.

Waffennacht

Adernath wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

People just QQ until CC's got nerfed, now you want more?!

Lol, everyone wants something different

Some want it impossible to kill them if they never make a mistake (removing CCs, proc sets, burst damage)

Others want to have the ability to stop all counter play

Some want healers to be prominent (who the heck is this?!) and therefore class defenses will probably be gutted.

You want the kite abilities? Well people want sorc to be deleted, or at least kept around only as a scapegoat.

Warden also want a CC, but screw them, they already spent their money right?

Speaking of money, some people want ESO+ only privileges.

People are generally ignorant, and when given what they want usually destroy themselves and everything around them.

That's life. People give their feedback and opinion, and so I gave mine. I don't know if you played PvP on different MMOs like me, in which PvP is definitively much more diversified, but then you would understand what I am talking about.

It's a knock on the QQers. I may not agree with your assessment, but I do agree with your outcome... Mostly, some of it I'd disagree with.

But it's not like there's any danger of any of this actually happening lmfao

TheMystid

Waffennacht wrote: »

Adernath wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

People just QQ until CC's got nerfed, now you want more?!

Lol, everyone wants something different

Some want it impossible to kill them if they never make a mistake (removing CCs, proc sets, burst damage)

Others want to have the ability to stop all counter play

Some want healers to be prominent (who the heck is this?!) and therefore class defenses will probably be gutted.

You want the kite abilities? Well people want sorc to be deleted, or at least kept around only as a scapegoat.

Warden also want a CC, but screw them, they already spent their money right?

Speaking of money, some people want ESO+ only privileges.

People are generally ignorant, and when given what they want usually destroy themselves and everything around them.

That's life. People give their feedback and opinion, and so I gave mine. I don't know if you played PvP on different MMOs like me, in which PvP is definitively much more diversified, but then you would understand what I am talking about.

It's a knock on the QQers. I may not agree with your assessment, but I do agree with your outcome... Mostly, some of it I'd disagree with.

But it's not like there's any danger of any of this actually happening lmfao

There's actually a scientific amount of QQ after which ZOS is compelled to intervene. And this is when the game get worse usually.

Datthaw

The two things in just a broad brush that ruin pvp and diversity

"raise the floor and lower the ceiling"
"any class any role"

These two concepts particularly the latter have ruined the class diversity and how allowed these self healing, high mobility, high dps builds

Vivecc

that started with the introduction of Vigor and proxy… and got continued with the abundance constant influx of new sets that watering the original trinity into a cheesy cream state of indistinguishment

lucky_dutch

Burst from abilities is fine. Set bonuses (across the board) are OP. This is the issue.

UppGRAYxDD

TheMystid wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Adernath wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

People just QQ until CC's got nerfed, now you want more?!

Lol, everyone wants something different

Some want it impossible to kill them if they never make a mistake (removing CCs, proc sets, burst damage)

Others want to have the ability to stop all counter play

Some want healers to be prominent (who the heck is this?!) and therefore class defenses will probably be gutted.

You want the kite abilities? Well people want sorc to be deleted, or at least kept around only as a scapegoat.

Warden also want a CC, but screw them, they already spent their money right?

Speaking of money, some people want ESO+ only privileges.

People are generally ignorant, and when given what they want usually destroy themselves and everything around them.

That's life. People give their feedback and opinion, and so I gave mine. I don't know if you played PvP on different MMOs like me, in which PvP is definitively much more diversified, but then you would understand what I am talking about.

It's a knock on the QQers. I may not agree with your assessment, but I do agree with your outcome... Mostly, some of it I'd disagree with.

But it's not like there's any danger of any of this actually happening lmfao

There's actually a scientific amount of QQ after which ZOS is compelled to intervene. And this is when the game get worse usually.

This right here is the problem...instead of ZoS actually playing the game or listening to the community, they just roll out an algorithm that computes how many "Nerf this" posts are on the forums to determine balance changes. Now I know this is probably not confirmed, but I dare to say that the evidence has piled up enough to formulate a pretty solid hypothesis...

antihero727

I am more worried about what the devs break when they try to “fix” something that is #nerfsorc spammed. Almost every time they submit to the forum mob of people that just need more practice or better builds. 86.34% of the time they nerf to hard and make things unusable so we have to farm from scratch again. The game is so broken at the core between server performance and bugs why do we sweat the little details. Nerf forum crybabies if anything else.

Lexxypwns

You definitely have to make sacrifices for mobility in this game, don’t be ridiculous.

If it were actually possible to build a tank that doesn’t need mobility or to build mobility with no sacrifices then yeah, that’s be an issue. It’s just simply not the case though.

Ask @TheDoomsdayMonster all the sacrifices and the janky ass build just to be able to use Mistform

Joy_Division

So you'd like ESO to be the same, boring, and formulaic cookie-cutter archetypal made up nonsense that other games have already done? Why bother playing ESO then? I mean I can't wait to play my 40th fantasy heavy armor-slow-no damage build, except this time it will be really fun and dynamic because we have pretty graphics!

ESO does not have the balance right, but I do give them credit for at least trying to break the mold. There have been times in previous iterations of the game where things have worked reasonably well and presented interesting choices. Unfortunately, two things are working against ZOS that the devs can't quite control: Their own CP system which gives players too much free power (and thus allow players to skirt some of the sacrifices they used to have to make) and salty players whose inflated ego prevents them for taking accountability for why it is they die, their group wiped, or their faction loses, and lobbies ZOS to nerf what the builds they don't play can do, while arguing that what they builds they do play need a buff.

TheDoomsdayMonster

Lexxypwns wrote: »

You definitely have to make sacrifices for mobility in this game, don’t be ridiculous.

If it were actually possible to build a tank that doesn’t need mobility or to build mobility with no sacrifices then yeah, that’s be an issue. It’s just simply not the case though.

Ask @TheDoomsdayMonster all the sacrifices and the janky ass build just to be able to use Mistform

Janky but effective ass build!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@!!!

TheDoomsdayMonster

In all seriousness though @Adernath, I have succeeded in acquiring TRUE escape/disengage/mobility on my Magicka Templar, and @Lexxypwns is correct...

The price was high and I had to give up alot to do it...

Xvorg

Vivecc wrote: »

that started with the introduction of Vigor and proxy… and got continued with the abundance constant influx of new sets that watering the original trinity into a cheesy cream state of indistinguishment

Proxy... what a skill.

Created as a zerg buster, wento to become the zergs n°1 weapon. Then it was nerfed, but zergs learnt to use it in a coordinate way. Then it was nerfed again and zergs learnt to combine it with other skills/sets. Then ZoS gave up.

As the signature of a forum user says: "everything that could be exploited, will be exploited"...

Drakkdjinn

Waffennacht wrote: »

People just QQ until CC's got nerfed, now you want more?!

Lol, everyone wants something different

Some want it impossible to kill them if they never make a mistake (removing CCs, proc sets, burst damage)

Others want to have the ability to stop all counter play

Some want healers to be prominent (who the heck is this?!) and therefore class defenses will probably be gutted.

You want the kite abilities? Well people want sorc to be deleted, or at least kept around only as a scapegoat.

Warden also want a CC, but screw them, they already spent their money right?

Speaking of money, some people want ESO+ only privileges.

People are generally ignorant, and when given what they want usually destroy themselves and everything around them.

Dad's mad guys.

Adernath

Joy_Division wrote: »

So you'd like ESO to be the same, boring, and formulaic cookie-cutter archetypal made up nonsense that other games have already done? Why bother playing ESO then? I mean I can't wait to play my 40th fantasy heavy armor-slow-no damage build, except this time it will be really fun and dynamic because we have pretty graphics!

ESO does not have the balance right, but I do give them credit for at least trying to break the mold. There have been times in previous iterations of the game where things have worked reasonably well and presented interesting choices. Unfortunately, two things are working against ZOS that the devs can't quite control: Their own CP system which gives players too much free power (and thus allow players to skirt some of the sacrifices they used to have to make) and salty players whose inflated ego prevents them for taking accountability for why it is they die, their group wiped, or their faction loses, and lobbies ZOS to nerf what the builds they don't play can do, while arguing that what they builds they do play need a buff.

The games I played before either turned into pay2win or had other flaws I didn't like, but they were not boring lol. In any case, the balance between the 4 things I mentioned is not invented by them. Its more or less standard in many MMOs to prevent that people create power-gamer builds who can do all at once, as we have it right now; you can even see such rules when looking at classic Pen n Paper games. Breaking the mold is fine, but in this case 'the mold' is the right way if it comes to play-style diversity. In my opinion ZOS can still to learn much from other/old games if it comes to balancing. It does not mean that everything has to be similar, but a little more common sense would be good imo.

For example, no dimish returns for CC immunity and being able to spam gap closers and CC's at will reduce much of tactical play and brings too much dependency on the gear and sets you are using to mitigate or deal damage.

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

In all seriousness though @Adernath, I have succeeded in acquiring TRUE escape/disengage/mobility on my Magicka Templar, and @Lexxypwns is correct...

The price was high and I had to give up alot to do it...

A true kiting class I was talking about is a ranged damage dealer who can manage to avoid going into meele range against most of his opponents, while being able to take them down with ranged abilities. Based on the current amount of CC immunities and the ability to spam gap closers I have much doubt that you succeeded. You might be able to run around with enough CC immunity (did I say that I dislike having no dimish returns for this?) but being able to avoid going into meele while at the same time having enough damage output to be a threat for the current cookie-cutter tank builds out there is something I'd like to see. I never saw true kiting builds in cyrodiil, only people who run around with enough CC immunities to avoid getting stopped, but they can never prevent effectively that other people reach meele range and then stay in meele range. They are often meele by themselves, spamming forward momentum.

Waffennacht

@UppGRAYxDD iirc a dev once said the QQ needs to be 50/50 for it to stay unchanged.

So I'm assuming if there's 70% more QQ about one side than another, that's what it takes to get nerfed

Sacredx

Adernath wrote: »

I play PvP since open beta, sometimes more, sometimes less. Still I would like to drop my feedback on its current state:

There needs to be a balance between high damage output, defense, mobility and healing. It is very bad design in my opinion if it is possible to create certain meta builds which can perform everything at once and everyone else who is not running on these specific meta builds (for example because CP and abilities are used for competitive PvE) have a large disadvantage. I do not know any other popular game where this is canon.

For example in most other games I've played, equipping heavy armor makes you much more tankier, but you loose a big chunk of mobility, damage and usually also healing. Light armor is on the opposite spectrum, while medium is a balance of both. Very easy concept. But here, kiting in open sight is literally impossible, which gives light armor users or ranged damage dealers no way to defend themselves effectively by kiting. This was clear to me right from the start in open beta, as I saw that e.g. critical charge can be spammed at will, but still I want to say it is sad that a kiting style class is not really possible to play - and no, I am not talking about running around obstacles spamming pots and forward momentum in one of these cheesy builds. By contrary, there has to be dimish returns for CC immunity or other drawbacks. That it is possible to run around with around 95% CC immunity uptime is really not good design.

In my opinion there need to be a lot of work to make PvP more diversified and interesting, so people can play on a mixture of different *working* builds.

Agree. And this has been acknowledged by the developers so we will see what they do about it:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Light and Medium Armor do not compare favorably to Heavy Armor (mostly in PvP: it’s easier to get good damage, sustain, and mitigation from heavy)

Minno

Waffennacht wrote: »

@UppGRAYxDD iirc a dev once said the QQ needs to be 50/50 for it to stay unchanged.

So I'm assuming if there's 70% more QQ about one side than another, that's what it takes to get nerfed

They will also ask for evidence. If nothing comes up they kinda ignore it

del9

I can’t really get behind the feedback of ‘meta builds are ruining balance’. There are many, MANY combinations of builds that are effective. If you chose not to play one of them that is on you. Everyone has potential access to the same gear.

You say a kiting style class is impossible to play... what do you call medium armor nightblades then?

I also see you have complaints against many stamina abilities and seem to be critizing the lack of mobility in LA (robes). Well theres your balance- you can’t have a ranged mag character with shields and all their healing, AND be as fast as a stamina player. Thats a choice you have to make. I just feel like these are more personal issues you have playing your character and not really feedback on the state of pvP.

Proc sets and siege are the state of pvp. Diminished role of class abilities are the state of Pvp. Raised floors and lowered ceilings. Server lag. These are the things that need feedback.

Adernath

del9 wrote: »

I can’t really get behind the feedback of ‘meta builds are ruining balance’. There are many, MANY combinations of builds that are effective. If you chose not to play one of them that is on you. Everyone has potential access to the same gear.

Sorry but those which I was referring to are not many. Its the same playstile over and over with builds which are tanky, high mobile, put alot damage output and healing. Usually DKs. Totally boring really.

del9 wrote: »

You say a kiting style class is impossible to play... what do you call medium armor nightblades then?

Your question indicates that this might be your first MMO. I can only say that I have nearly 12 years of experience in PvP in various MMOs. I am talking about classes which nearly 100% ranged like a hunter or mage in WoW. Going invisible is a different sort of defense and no this is not what I meant. What I am talking about is the ability to kite a player to death using counters for gap closers, CC and good positioning as their defense. This requires an extremely well balanced game.

This is all not possible if gap closers can be spammed without internal cooldown, CCs can be spammed without dimish returns, CC immunity can be spammed without dimish returns... then entire branches of tactics are just not possible. One can not outplay someone and all is so dull... a reduction to who has the best working set to mitigate damage, heal and build up pressure on the opponent.

del9 wrote: »

I also see you have complaints against many stamina abilities and seem to be critizing the lack of mobility in LA (robes). Well theres your balance- you can’t have a ranged mag character with shields and all their healing, AND be as fast as a stamina player. Thats a choice you have to make. I just feel like these are more personal issues you have playing your character and not really feedback on the state of pvP.

Proc sets and siege are the state of pvp. Diminished role of class abilities are the state of Pvp. Raised floors and lowered ceilings. Server lag. These are the things that need feedback.

I mentioned forward momentum and critical rush as examples but there are also magicka abilities which fall into the same category. Just want to say that I know at least 2 games in which there are classes with shields, high mobility and/or healing. And this works pretty well and is balanced ... and this is also not focused on magicka classes, but they are usually the ranged classes.

Adernath

For example, in WoW warriors can*) spam rush as well, but only if the target is sufficiently far away. If the target is closer, it was not possible. By having a proper feeling about the range when the warrior can rush, one was able to keep just enough distance to stay out of his melee range and remain close enough that the warrior can not rush. This was not easy to accomplish and required a lot of proper positioning.

*) I don't play the recent version anymore.