Re-add the spell and weapon damage to the vMA weapons?

Iamth3wa1rus09

Beardimus

Yes.

Yeah. That addition at least made the weopons have use in PvP / nonAOE.

And likewise now the gain of then is far far less now all are 5:5:2

AndyMac

Yes.

Sounds good me

Aliyavana

Yes.

now that 2h count as two piece bonuses, there is no reason vma weapons shouldn't except for maybe the ones that are already powerful like the bow

Lord-Otto

Yes.

Don't forget the Master weapons!

Qbiken

No, plz I can't do vMA

Biased poll is biased lol

It´s not like the removal of the weapon/spell damage made a huge difference anyway.

Enslaved

Yes.

Yes. vMA weapons should have more damage than pleb weapons.

CyberOnEso

Yes.

Biased poll aside I have two thoughts, mainly based on the staff. Firstly the staff and bow are already used on nearly all DPS builds in PvE so a buff is not really needed. However, I would like to see the effects being added back as two handed weapons now take 2 set slots.

Beardimus

Yes.

Qbiken wrote: »

Biased poll is biased lol

It´s not like the removal of the weapon/spell damage made a huge difference anyway.

It doesnt need to make a huge difference, just a difference. Making Gold gear isnt a huge difference but we do it. 150 spell damage is another enchants worth.

And it did make a difference when we were 5:5:1 and not using an AOE skill (PVP setups etc)

MaleAmazon

They did compensate for the removal though, by being able to enchant? IMO what you are asking for is a straight up buff, and maelstrom weapons are used even now, so...

Qbiken

No, plz I can't do vMA

Beardimus wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Biased poll is biased lol

It´s not like the removal of the weapon/spell damage made a huge difference anyway.

It doesnt need to make a huge difference, just a difference. Making Gold gear isnt a huge difference but we do it. 150 spell damage is another enchants worth.

And it did make a difference when we were 5:5:1 and not using an AOE skill (PVP setups etc)

Sure I agree with you there, but back when it was changed people acted like it was the end of the world, and here we´re still living

The tricky part here is to buff weapons that are already considered BiS in PvE (Bow and destrostaff). The only weapons that really area lacklustre is the 2handed axe/mace/sword and the dualwield set, the other weapons has their usages. I would rather see some rework on the weapons "special ability" rather than just adding the weapon/spell-damage back.

Iamth3wa1rus09

Qbiken wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Biased poll is biased lol

It´s not like the removal of the weapon/spell damage made a huge difference anyway.

It doesnt need to make a huge difference, just a difference. Making Gold gear isnt a huge difference but we do it. 150 spell damage is another enchants worth.

And it did make a difference when we were 5:5:1 and not using an AOE skill (PVP setups etc)

Sure I agree with you there, but back when it was changed people acted like it was the end of the world, and here we´re still living

The tricky part here is to buff weapons that are already considered BiS in PvE (Bow and destrostaff). The only weapons that really area lacklustre is the 2handed axe/mace/sword and the dualwield set, the other weapons has their usages. I would rather see some rework on the weapons "special ability" rather than just adding the weapon/spell-damage back.

while this is true, adding the bonuses back would give players more incentive to use those weapons against others for certain builds.

kylewwefan

Yes.

Sure, they’re already BiS, but feels like they should be a lot better. Diddnt make sense to make everything else better, and then nerf Maelstrom stuff.

TheYKcid

Yes.

MaleAmazon wrote: »

They did compensate for the removal though, by being able to enchant? IMO what you are asking for is a straight up buff, and maelstrom weapons are used even now, so...

You are correct that the addition of an enchant slot was compensation for losing the wep/spell damage, however that was way back in the Clockwork City update.

Since then, vMA and vDSA weapons (I will call these Arena weapons for short) have fallen even further behind, due to the 2h=2 slots change, with no corresponding compensation. This change enabled all builds to run 5/5/2 on their frontbar using conventional sets, relegating Arena weapons to backbar usage, if at all.

Running these weapons on the frontbar is completely sub-optimal (even when combined with 3pc Agility/Willpower jewels), a topic on which I went into great detail in this thread from the Summerset PTS cycle.

Adding the old 189 WD/SD could be a tad too much in the current state of things (as we would have an enchant/poison, the special effect, AND the WD/SD), but a standardised 1pc bonus of 129 WD/SD would be completely reasonable, and still allow alternative itemisation options to be competitive and relevant (see my linked thread for more analysis on this point).

Carbonised

No. Also the poll is sh*t.

Hulda

I don't feel like they need a buff at all tbh, I would like to see more weapons like that si we will have variety what to use in PVE, now its just MA staff/bow. About other weapons, adding WD/SD won't make them useful, they need complete revamp in order to be.

TheYKcid

Yes.

Addressing the concern that such a buff would overtune vMA bow and destro (which are already BiS):

It won't.

Both those pieces are backbarred. A small, transient WD/SD boost during the short windows you spend on your backbar would be inconsequential. You do the bulk of your damage on your frontbar.

karekiz

No, plz I can't do vMA

I selected no because I can do VMA, but felt its the funnier of the two.

MaleAmazon

Since then, vMA and vDSA weapons (I will call these Arena weapons for short) have fallen even further behind, due to the 2h=2 slots change, with no corresponding compensation. This change enabled all builds to run 5/5/2 on their frontbar using conventional sets, relegating Arena weapons to backbar usage, if at all.

They are still good on the backbar. I don´t see a huge problem with relegating them to that. And if you make them good enough that they beat out a 5-set - you probably wind up with them still being on the backbar, just now as OP PvP openers.

EDIT: It´s just maths. 5-5-2 is the optimal, for a reason. And then you have 2 slots open for the backbar. Make maelstrom weapons very strong and you switch to 5-3-2 meta, maybe. And then less 5-sets will be used. Or you do 5 on the backbar and then it´s basically the same situation as now, just reversed.

TheYKcid

Yes.

MaleAmazon wrote: »

Since then, vMA and vDSA weapons (I will call these Arena weapons for short) have fallen even further behind, due to the 2h=2 slots change, with no corresponding compensation. This change enabled all builds to run 5/5/2 on their frontbar using conventional sets, relegating Arena weapons to backbar usage, if at all.

They are still good on the backbar. I don´t see a huge problem with relegating them to that. And if you make them good enough that they beat out a 5-set - you probably wind up with them still being on the backbar, just now as OP PvP openers.

As mentioned, see the thread I linked, in which numerical comparisons have been made.

Adding +129 WD/SD to Arena weapons (on the frontbar, in conjunction with 3pc Agi/Will) does NOT conclusively outperform 5pc sets. It would provide neither as much raw stats, nor as strong a proc, compared to 5pc sets that specialise into either area.

The only thing it would do is promote more build diversity through providing a unique balance of functionality.

Oh... and not slap people who grinded endgame content for hundreds of hours in the face?

Danksta

No, plz I can't do vMA

I just love picking the option that poll makers don't want me to pick.

MaleAmazon

Adding +129 WD/SD to Arena weapons (on the frontbar, in conjunction with 3pc Agi/Will) does NOT conclusively outperform 5pc sets. It would provide neither as much raw stats, nor as strong a proc, compared to 5pc sets that specialise into either area.

Thing is people already use them. I use them and I plan more builds with them. Am I super good and a minmaxer? No. But rather than saying they should get WD/SD back, why not say which one(s) you think underperform and why? They have quite particular effects.

Qbiken

No, plz I can't do vMA

Only reason I see people wanting it back is because of PvP reason like "It would be nice with some extra stats", which I don´t really see as a strong argument :P

TheYKcid

Yes.

MaleAmazon wrote: »

Adding +129 WD/SD to Arena weapons (on the frontbar, in conjunction with 3pc Agi/Will) does NOT conclusively outperform 5pc sets. It would provide neither as much raw stats, nor as strong a proc, compared to 5pc sets that specialise into either area.

Thing is people already use them. I use them and I plan more builds with them. Am I super good and a minmaxer? No. But rather than saying they should get WD/SD back, why not say which one(s) you think underperform and why? They have quite particular effects.

I'll refer you again to the linked thread, where I specified the particularly underperforming options, why they are underperforming, and provided numerical data to support my case.

Whether or not people still use them at present is irrelevant to a balance debate, especially if you can't demonstrate the extent to which they are or aren't used (tell me how many vMA 2h builds you see as a proportion of total 2h builds, for instance). I've seen people using the Ashen Grip set. Does that mean it's a great set? Passable, even?

If someone wants to run something suboptimal because they don't enjoy min-maxing, that's entirely fine by me. Just don't use a willful lack of analysis as an argument in an analytical discussion.

code65536

Yes.

Add 1p stat bonuses. Call them Perfected weapons, dropped only in sigil-free no-save vet runs. Let the Imperfect weapons drop in normal.

Aliyavana

Yes.

Qbiken wrote: »

Biased poll is biased lol

It´s not like the removal of the weapon/spell damage made a huge difference anyway.

then people wouldn't be asking for it

kathandira

Iamth3wa1rus09 wrote: »

I'm a noob, so please excuse my ignorance.

Are you talking about from the "set bonus", or from the enchantment it can come with?

MaleAmazon

I'll refer you again to the linked thread, where I specified the particularly underperforming options, why they are underperforming, and provided numerical data to support my case.

You need to loosen up.

Also you cannot do a simple numerical analysis on weapons with special effects.

LadyNalcarya

Yes.

And add them to DSA/Asylum weapons, please, so even the imperfect Asylum weapons will have some uses.

idk

The OP is not clear at all.

Does OP want the weapons reverted to how they were or buffed from their current state? (S)he says nothing of the current enchants so it’s hard to tell.

Iirc a weapon/spell damage enchant on the back bar worked out to average more than the old design of the weapon.

TheYKcid

Yes.

MaleAmazon wrote: »

I'll refer you again to the linked thread, where I specified the particularly underperforming options, why they are underperforming, and provided numerical data to support my case.

You need to loosen up.

Also you cannot do a simple numerical analysis on weapons with special effects.

You absolutely can.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/421134/math-sloads-vs-masters-dual-wield-a-perspective-on-balance/p1

Here's a thread comparing—numerically—the DPS between Master's dual-wield (widely considered the strongest Arena set in PvP) and Sload's, a staple 5pc proc set, over a wide range of scenarios

It does approximately half the damage of Sload's. And note that the comparison omits the unintended t=0 tick of Sload's, so these values are valid for the Wolfhunter update.

When the strongest Arena set is getting left in the dust by a crafted one, can you honestly tell me the numbers don't need tweaking?