I deleted the contents of this post as I do not wish to share the information I posted here anymore.

Jayman1000

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

They fact that you have to hit the "Play" button can be loosely interpreted as an indicator in that direction.

Finally, a decent argument. Heureka! Thank you. I have to agree that this is indeed an argument that points to a perception that from that point on forward you are "playing" the game, even when not interacting with the game. So when the "play" button have been pressed and I choose to go to the toilet for 10 minutes (no further details, sorry) I will still be playing the game while at the same time being at the toilet doing something else (like putting towels in the closet or brushing my teeth).

Ilsabet

Seems like logging in on two different computers to trade stuff between accounts would be much more efficient than sending 50 mails back and forth. Would anybody here consider that a reasonable reason to have two accounts logged in at the same time?

Jayman1000

Dacalana wrote: »

Password can be copy pasted, so logging in is fast enough.
And you need it all just to buy something cheap (and resell?), not the best reason for doing something that is not allowed.

I dont know how fast your pc is but my pc takes several minutes from logging in to it is ready. Also I have to open my password archive (that requires it's own password entered first), then copying it, then pasting it. Also then copying something else so that my password isn't kept in the clipboard, which is obviously a bad idea. Then clicking on the login button. Then waiting for the character screen to load. Then clicking "play". Then waiting for the game to load. IMO: "Not fast enough"™

Wanting to have all possible motifs, so wanting to buy at the cheapest. But in the case of motifs, it IS a problem that another account cant see which motifs my first account know, so perhaps not the best example I agree. But additionally I like to sell motifs cheap to guildies that needs it, not for profit obviously, but just to help out so they basically just pay near the cost I had, or a little less; or sometimes not at all in case it's some of the less expensive motifs. Oh and donations to a raffle/Auction guild im a member of, I love that guild there's almost always a raffle or auction going on in the chat. Donating stuff to it is super fun, the way the GM do it is so positive, I want to support stuff like that. But motifs is of course not the only things. It could be golden materials that you can never get to much of, I know I almost always at some point will have need for them. So might as well as buy them when they are very cheap.

Jayman1000

Epona222 wrote: »

How about we have a test case on that wording then - you log in on 2 accounts at the same time, we all report you, then you can sort it out in court and cost all of us a fortune.

Or you could just not try to find ways to bot the game.

That sounds like a very bad idea. I don't like the accussatioin of botting. Please stop it. If finding ways to bot was my goal the official ESO forums seems like a really bad place.....? your comment baffles me. You seem confused about the concepts here: being logged in on two accouns at the same time has nothing to do with botting. Bots are illicit 3rd party automation. That is not allowed, it says so quite clearly in the TOS; I dont know why you are even bringing that up. you are misunderstanding the subject at hand.

Jayman1000

Ilsabet wrote: »

Seems like logging in on two different computers to trade stuff between accounts would be much more efficient than sending 50 mails back and forth. Would anybody here consider that a reasonable reason to have two accounts logged in at the same time?

Im not sure, I think sending mail is far easier to be honest. You just pop open the mail, put the items in the mail and send. Though 50 mails sound like an awful lot of items, I wasn't considering so high volume.

DMuehlhausen

You are paying for both accounts, and you aren't controlling both (at the same time) with one controller or mouse. It's allowed.

Now if you somehow had both logged in and were controlling both from the same mouse/keyboard through shortcuts and macros that would be bannable.

Jayman1000

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

You are paying for both accounts, and you aren't controlling both (at the same time) with one controller or mouse. It's allowed.

Now if you somehow had both logged in and were controlling both from the same mouse/keyboard through shortcuts and macros that would be bannable.

yes, I should think so too. But as can be seen from some of the other posters they very much disagree. So some believe one thing and others believe another thing.

Merlin13KAGL

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

They fact that you have to hit the "Play" button can be loosely interpreted as an indicator in that direction.

Finally, a decent argument. Heureka! Thank you. I have to agree that this is indeed an argument that points to a perception that from that point on forward you are "playing" the game, even when not interacting with the game. So when the "play" button have been pressed and I choose to go to the toilet for 10 minutes (no further details, sorry) I will still be playing the game while at the same time being at the toilet doing something else (like putting towels in the closet or brushing my teeth).

Except you missed the second half or chose to ignore it.

If you're idle on one account, it's still one account.

If you're active on one account, while idle on another, or idle on both, it's two accounts. Two accounts, one person, logged in at the same time - falls under the multiboxing rule, which is a violation.

It's been spelled out. Proceed at your own risk.

Epona222

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

How about we have a test case on that wording then - you log in on 2 accounts at the same time, we all report you, then you can sort it out in court and cost all of us a fortune.

Or you could just not try to find ways to bot the game.

That sounds like a very bad idea. I don't like the accussatioin of botting. Please stop it. If finding ways to bot was my goal the official ESO forums seems like a really bad place.....? your comment baffles me. You seem confused about the concepts here: being logged in on two accouns at the same time has nothing to do with botting. Bots are illicit 3rd party automation. That is not allowed, it says so quite clearly in the TOS; I dont know why you are even bringing that up. you are misunderstanding the subject at hand.

Because it is clear to me that when you hit PLAY you are playing the game. If you do that on 2 accounts that are active in PLAY mode, then you are PLAYING the game on more than 1 account.

It really isn't any more complicated than that - sometimes I just think people have watched too many courtroom dramas where twisting someone else's words wins the day - it doesn't work like that. Zeni owns the game. If they say you cannot play on 2 accounts at a time, that means if you log in on 1 account and hit play, then log in on another account and hit play, you are in breach of their ToS.

It is that simple. It's not a complicated case for a willing sleuth and a daytime TV movie. You hit play, you sign up to the ToS, you hit play on 2 diffeerent instances of the game and log in on 2 different accounts, you are in breach of that.

What is it about that that you don't understand?

Jayman1000

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Except you missed the second half or chose to ignore it.

If you're idle on one account, it's still one account.

If you're active on one account, while idle on another, or idle on both, it's two accounts. Two accounts, one person, logged in at the same time - falls under the multiboxing rule, which is a violation.

It's been spelled out. Proceed at your own risk.

True I ignored that part where you said "Zero reason to be logged into multiple accounts at a time, simply to have one on standby.". Since I have already in detail described a reason to do so and you having failed to provide any counterargument I didnt really think I needed to elaborate further on my opinion and my argument. I do would like a counterargument from you that can support your postulate.

Also Im not gonna do it as long as there is not clarification, I dont want to risk ZOS banning me for obscure reasons, so I'll try to stay on the safe side.

It hasn't been spelled out. In fact that is exactly what it hasn't been.

"Two accounts, one person, logged in at the same time - falls under the multiboxing rule, which is a violation."

No. being logged in at the same time is not multiboxing. By definition (at least the consensus definition that everyone is using, are you using another definition?) from for example Wikipedia, "multiboxing refers to playing as multiple separate characters concurrently in an MMORPG". Do you agree or disagree with this definition. If you agree then we are back to figuring out the definition of "Playing". I do not, at this time, agree that "playing" is the same as logged in and having pressed the "play" button if Im not actual interacting with the game. Although I do agree that having to click a "Play" button does strengthen your position on the matter.

jaws343

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Except you missed the second half or chose to ignore it.

If you're idle on one account, it's still one account.

If you're active on one account, while idle on another, or idle on both, it's two accounts. Two accounts, one person, logged in at the same time - falls under the multiboxing rule, which is a violation.

It's been spelled out. Proceed at your own risk.

True I ignored that part where you said "Zero reason to be logged into multiple accounts at a time, simply to have one on standby.". Since I have already in detail described a reason to do so and you having failed to provide any counterargument I didnt really think I needed to elaborate further on my opinion and my argument. I do would like a counterargument from you that can support your postulate.

Also Im not gonna do it as long as there is not clarification, I dont want to risk ZOS banning me for obscure reasons, so I'll try to stay on the safe side.

It hasn't been spelled out. In fact that is exactly what it hasn't been.

"Two accounts, one person, logged in at the same time - falls under the multiboxing rule, which is a violation."

No. being logged in at the same time is not multiboxing. By definition (at least the consensus definition that everyone is using, are you using another definition?) from for example Wikipedia, "multiboxing refers to playing as multiple separate characters concurrently in an MMORPG". Do you agree or disagree with this definition. If you agree then we are back to figuring out the definition of "Playing". I do not, at this time, agree that "playing" is the same as logged in and having pressed the "play" button if Im not actual interacting with the game. Although I do agree that having to click a "Play" button does strengthen your position on the matter.

Well, you are wrong.

vamp_emily

Regardless of what the TOS says, I don't think what the OP wants to do is a bad thing.

But, I've seen a few players log into an account and then go to some grinding spot and play dead. Then log into the other account, group with the dead player, and start grinding.

Even though they are not actually "playing" or "Controlling" both accounts at the same time. One account is getting XP for doing nothing.

Every time I tell them I am going to report them, they respond with a "lol, go ahead".

Ackwalan

Clearly just looking for a way to get around the TOS. If you are just leaving a character at the bank (or some place else) to make things easy for you, you would have to move it around every few minutes in order to avoid the inactivity logout timer.

Malamar1229

I dont understand why this is even an issue. It's two separate accounts, two separate licenses. As long as automation isn't being used who cares? How can zenimax prove there isnt two separate people sitting at the chairs? My 4 yr old has an account where she runs around on her horse collecting butterflies. She loves it, and the beautiful scenery.

I can give her toon a mara ring and leave her afk in proximity of mine so my alt gets an exp buff. How is this against the TOS or even measurable behavior?

Likewise, can stand near a boss or dolmen (with some bouncing back n forth between PCs) to get two chances at loot.

As long as there is no illegal programs being used and it's on two different PCs...I dont see an issue.

Tandor

redspecter23 wrote: »

That depends on how ZOS defines "playing". If simply being logged in is playing, even if you're just standing still, then the answer is no. Personally, I wouldn't risk it.

However, if that second account isn't yours, but perhaps that of one of your wife/husband/girlfriend/etc. that is at your house and he/she is playing the game on the other side of the room, but happens to be afk while you're playing your dungeon and then checks the guild store moments after you finish your dungeon, that would be fine.

The question then becomes, how does ZOS tell the difference between the two scenarios?

One aspect to that may be whether both accounts are being played on the same computer. If they're on separate machines then it's difficult to see how anyone can tell whether it's the same person running them or not, assuming they're not linked in any unauthorised way.

One of the problems here is that quite often one player will open several accounts for family members, and will make the regular payments on those accounts be that by subscription or the purchase of crowns. It's difficult to see how ZOS could differentiate between those accounts being played by one or several players, unless something is being done that is picked up by their anti-cheat software such as macros or third party software that permit one player to control multiple accounts simultaneously.

Linaleah

ok, here is the EXACT post from that other thread.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5353757/#Comment_5353757

and to quote relevant passages

To be clear, players are welcome to have multiple accounts. However, using hardware or software to play them all at the same time is not allowed on any ESO service.

Multiboxing is the practice of playing multiple accounts simultaneously, including, but not limited to using either hardware or software to facilitate the coordination between the accounts. This violates the intended nature of the gameplay mechanics we've created for ESO.

bolded especially relevant part. having 2 accounts running on 2 separate machines and manually using 2 separate keyboards - I cannot see how in any way shape or form can it be defined as using software or hardware to facilitate coordination. you are controlling one character at a time. they are most certainly NOT coordinated. there isn't any kind of automated or coordinated follow, etc

however, if you want to be super extra safe? just don't stay logged in on second account until you are ready to check the traders, log out of your first one, log into second one, etc etc.



P.S. sometimes i go afk at random becasue I want to grab a drink and a snack, or go to the bathroom or check on that weird silence that often means that dog is doing something wrong, or heck pick up the phone. and most of us have done one or more of the above things. some people afk to take care of their children, some people afk for all kinds of reasons, often times while in a group with other people and logging out means they are no longer in a group.

please try not to make it sound like going afk for any period of time is an unreasonable drain on game resources and is bannable ToS offense. that is beyond unreasonable and highly unlikely to be ZoS's intention.

Jayman1000

jaws343 wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Except you missed the second half or chose to ignore it.

If you're idle on one account, it's still one account.

If you're active on one account, while idle on another, or idle on both, it's two accounts. Two accounts, one person, logged in at the same time - falls under the multiboxing rule, which is a violation.

It's been spelled out. Proceed at your own risk.

True I ignored that part where you said "Zero reason to be logged into multiple accounts at a time, simply to have one on standby.". Since I have already in detail described a reason to do so and you having failed to provide any counterargument I didnt really think I needed to elaborate further on my opinion and my argument. I do would like a counterargument from you that can support your postulate.

Also Im not gonna do it as long as there is not clarification, I dont want to risk ZOS banning me for obscure reasons, so I'll try to stay on the safe side.

It hasn't been spelled out. In fact that is exactly what it hasn't been.

"Two accounts, one person, logged in at the same time - falls under the multiboxing rule, which is a violation."

No. being logged in at the same time is not multiboxing. By definition (at least the consensus definition that everyone is using, are you using another definition?) from for example Wikipedia, "multiboxing refers to playing as multiple separate characters concurrently in an MMORPG". Do you agree or disagree with this definition. If you agree then we are back to figuring out the definition of "Playing". I do not, at this time, agree that "playing" is the same as logged in and having pressed the "play" button if Im not actual interacting with the game. Although I do agree that having to click a "Play" button does strengthen your position on the matter.

Well, you are wrong.

Great argument

Linaleah

Epona222 wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

This is the salient point from the official Zeni post:

To be clear, players are welcome to have multiple accounts. However, using hardware or software to play them all at the same time is not allowed on any ESO service.

To me, using hardware (a computer or computer components) or software (anything from windows to the ESO client to your own written software) to play then all at the same time means being logged in to more than one account at the same time - it really is that simple to me - I am sorry that some of you are having a hard time with that and trying to make that wording fit what you would prefer it to mean.

But it seems very clear to me that if you are logged on you are playing the game, since being logged on is really the only way Zeni can measure it - they can't tell whether you are having *fun*, which would be more clearly definable as "playing".

Just don't do it?

What is it that you think you need to be logged in on 2 accounts at the same time in order to do?

I understand that you equal "logged in" with "playing". But if that is the case why not prohibit being logged in at the same time? Why does the TOS choose the word "playing" and not the words "logged in"? What is written in the TOS is no coincidence I can almost assure you as much.

How about we have a test case on that wording then - you log in on 2 accounts at the same time, we all report you, then you can sort it out in court and cost all of us a fortune.

Or you could just not try to find ways to bot the game.

being logged in while afk in a safe spot is NOT botting. controlling characters one at a time is NOT botting.

botting is where you use software or hardware or BOTH to AUTOMATE actions of the characters. that's why its called a bot, aka robot.

Jayman1000

vamp_emily wrote: »

Regardless of what the TOS says, I don't think what the OP wants to do is a bad thing.

But, I've seen a few players log into an account and then go to some grinding spot and play dead. Then log into the other account, group with the dead player, and start grinding.

Even though they are not actually "playing" or "Controlling" both accounts at the same time. One account is getting XP for doing nothing.

Every time I tell them I am going to report them, they respond with a "lol, go ahead".

"Getting xp" or getting loot could perhaps be interpreted as "playing"; Im not sure though I fully agree with it but it has some merit. I will give you that, not a bad argument.

Jayman1000

Ackwalan wrote: »

Clearly just looking for a way to get around the TOS. If you are just leaving a character at the bank (or some place else) to make things easy for you, you would have to move it around every few minutes in order to avoid the inactivity logout timer.

The inactivity timer is at least 20 minutes (at least the times I timed it has been). That is a far cry from your "every few minutes". But maybe my account works differently than yours? They should have the same idle kick timers imo.

And no, Im trying to understand the TOS. And can't we just stop accusing eachother of wrongdoings? Isn't it about time that that ended?

Elsonso

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

If you're active on one account, while idle on another, or idle on both, it's two accounts. Two accounts, one person, logged in at the same time - falls under the multiboxing rule, which is a violation.

Unfortunately, it is not that clear. It might seem that way, but it isn't.

I don't know if ZOS actually has a policy on multiple logins, except where people are using it to cheat. I suspect that they don't have a general policy for, or against, multiple simultaneous logins. Contrary to claims in this thread, it is not mentioned in the TOS or COC, and the only reference to it is in an article about cheating in the game.

If you really want to complicate things, Jessica once said that multiple logins is OK...

"The part of multiboxing that violates our EULA and TOU is automated gameplay. Anything that automates gameplay for you is a bannable offense. If you're manually controlling characters on two accounts that are logged in at the same time, such as in the original poster's example, that's fine."


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1597523/#Comment_1597523

This changes how I interpret that support article. I want to point out that, while the support article about multi-boxing shows as last being edited this year, it has not changed substantially. Here is the December 2015 version: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2494293/#Comment_2494293

Jayman1000

Malamar1229 wrote: »

My 4 yr old has an account where she runs around on her horse collecting butterflies. She loves it, and the beautiful scenery..

That's so cute! thank you for that picture!

PlagueSD

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Is it allowed to be logged in to two accounts at the same time, if I only play on one of the accounts at a time?

Say I have one account #1 standing ready at a guild trader/the bank. I then play a dungeon with account #2. When Im done with the dungeon I go over to my account #1 and check the guild listings, and lo and behold, motifs for 25% lower price according to mm, of course I buy. I then go over to my account #2 again and play another dungeon.

Is the above allowed? I am not playing them simultaneously, so I am not multiboxing. But I AM logged in on both accounts at the same time. Is it allowed?

As long as you're running the game on 2 different devices. What they don't allow is running 2 instances of the game on the SAME computer. (using hardware)

Tandor

If I remember rightly, one of the official comments that caused a lot of the concern over multiple accounts was when ZOS said on this forum that if two accounts were logged in simultaneously then they would assume that there was unauthorised software involved in controlling them and it would be dealt with accordingly. Unfortunately I can't recall the exact wording or give a link to it - can anyone else? If true, it would seem a draconian approach to a largely innocent situation usually with no such software involved. Perhaps it's time for a more detailed clarification of the company's policy on this.

Jayman1000

PlagueSD wrote: »

As long as you're running the game on 2 different devices. What they don't allow is running 2 instances of the game on the SAME computer. (using hardware)

yes that is what I would say too, I dont even want to bother running two times eso on same computer. I like to run the game so it looks really good, I am running a Reshade over it also that requires a lot of juice from my gfx card. With another eso game running, evne on the lowest graphical settings it has got to take a huge impact on my fps.

Jayman1000

lordrichter wrote: »

If you really want to complicate things, Jessica once said that multiple logins is OK...

"The part of multiboxing that violates our EULA and TOU is automated gameplay. Anything that automates gameplay for you is a bannable offense. If you're manually controlling characters on two accounts that are logged in at the same time, such as in the original poster's example, that's fine."


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1597523/#Comment_1597523

This changes how I interpret that support article. I want to point out that, while the support article about multi-boxing shows as last being edited this year, it has not changed substantially. Here is the December 2015 version: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2494293/#Comment_2494293

Thank you so much for bringing some clarity to the table. I did not know of this quote from ZOS, and if we have to go by that then the answer to my OP question would be yes, it is OK. Though it is some years old now so who knows if they have changed their minds since.

Sheezabeast

What may be having an idle banker to you, is to someone else, standing afk near dolmens, gaining xp and cp, to sell the account. Where does the line get drawn?

Linaleah

Sheezabeast wrote: »

What may be having an idle banker to you, is to someone else, standing afk near dolmens, gaining xp and cp, to sell the account. Where does the line get drawn?

where you use a single keyboard and its keystrokes to control both characters. also, have you tried standing idle near dolmens recently? it doesn't work. you have to keep moving or you get zapped to death (and if you want your alt to get xp, they have to be close enough to get zapped)

multiboxing generaly refers to controling multiple characters with a single keyboard so that keystrokes on it direct all the characters to perform identical actions. having 2 computers running 2 game accounts and having to use 2 keyboards to manually control those characters (as in each keystroke only controls a single character not both of them) - is not even multiboxing. some people call it multiboxing but its not. you know those bot trains you see moving in identical pattern, using identical abilities? THAT'S multiboxing. (what makes it botting is that original commands are also preprogrammed, there is NO actual person controlling the primary character)

Feric51

I played a text-based MUD years ago that was coincidentally produced by Matt Firor, and we didn't call it multi-boxing we called it multi-clienting, but it was essentially what the OP is asking. We would slightly alter the client code to allow multiple accounts to be logged into at once. (Without the code alteration, logging into a second account would kick you out of the game on the other account, and vice versa)

Anyway, some people were skilled enough to alt+tab between the two clients and control them actively in PvE/PvP combat, but most (like myself) used it to log into a second account to apply buffs to our main character for combat (buffs lasted hours in that game), or to swap items back and forth as a personal banker. This was still against ToS, although it became so commonplace at the end that I never saw anyone disciplined for it.

A legitimate way around it, however, was to simply have two pc's running at the same time adjacent to each other. This was single-clienting on multiple devices... fully legal.


I think what this argument boils down to is the semantics behind ZOS's post in "that other thread" on the definition of "playing." To me, playing means having a character logged in (active) in the game. Idle, but not yet kicked out to the character selection screen to me is still the definition of active/playing. My opinion is not going to help someone defend/prosecute an account suspension, however, so take it for what it's worth.

If you throw in @ZOS_JessicaFolsom 's quote from some years ago where this is seemingly okay, then that further muddies the waters. I think we need an updated statement from an upper-echelon ZOS employee on the definition of multi-boxing, and more specifically, their definition of "playing" since that is the terminology used in the ToS. Until that point, we are all just tossing out our own, personal interpretations of a legal document, and I haven't yet seen someone post that they have a Juris Doctorate, or other ample qualifications for doing so.

Here's your chance to end the argument ZOS, are you up for the forum challenge? lol


Edit for poor grammar.

vamp_emily

PlagueSD wrote: »

As long as you're running the game on 2 different devices. What they don't allow is running 2 instances of the game on the SAME computer. (using hardware)

I don't think they meant "Using hardware" as in running 2 instances of the game on one computer. If that was the case then they could easily just allow one instance of the game to run at any given time.

I'm thinking they meant something like - attaching a rubber-band to a controller that allows your character to spam a skill, or using super glue on your keyboard to hold down a button.

lol, you know i was joking about the "super glue" part, but then again, who knows what players do to get ahead. It is all about winning.. winning.. winning.