Suggested change to Mages Fury/Wrath (Sorc execute)

Solariken

The way this skill works in PvP is an absolute scandal (deathmatch battleground especially), basically giving a free win to the team with at least one competent magsorc.

Please change the execute mechanic to ONLY deal the explosion damage if the caster damages the target while below 20% health.

This way it will retain all of its power in PvE but will no longer allow Sorcs to steal kills unfairly by pre-loading the execute from 28 meters away while other players do all the work and actually secure the kill.

Under this suggested change, hitting a player while under 20% HP with the Mages' Wrath/Fury strike damage will still trigger the execute; as will light attacks and any other skills/procs. But it will NOT trigger automatically when the target falls below the 20% threshold by taking damage from any other player.

Tagging all the peeps @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert @Gilliamtherogue

Beardimus

I get people get narked at personal scores in BG and the mechanic.I'm open to a change happening, But all organised teams run a sorc for burst / execute. Simple. And the team gain having one, and sure battle of the steals will happen between 3 teams with one each.

A team of sorcs alone wouldn't be effective.

So really when folks upset by it I read their epeen is dented that in their PUG, in a DM, their 'score' was lower than the next guy. It's a team game. .. ... And kills count the most on one game type...

But hey. I'm open to why people are frustrated.

However what id say is until the mess with rune cage / frag is sorted out meddling with multiple class skills at once could be a disaster. Look at frag.

Frag changed, Sorc went wet, they added damage to cage now BOOM world loses its mind. That simple change now has people questioning literally every sorc skill.

Let's sort Frag / Cage first before adjusting everything else that's fundamental

BuddyAces

No no no no no, you're doing it wrong. You're only suppose to make threads on nerfing rune cage. Quick, edit your post!

Solariken

Beardimus wrote: »

I get people get narked at personal scores in BG and the mechanic.I'm open to a change happening, But all organised teams run a sorc for burst / execute. Simple. And the team gain having one, and sure battle of the steals will happen between 3 teams with one each.

A team of sorcs alone wouldn't be effective.

So really when folks upset by it I read their epeen is dented that in their PUG, in a DM, their 'score' was lower than the next guy. It's a team game. .. ... And kills count the most on one game type...

But hey. I'm open to why people are frustrated.

However what id say is until the mess with rune cage / frag is sorted out meddling with multiple class skills at once could be a disaster. Look at frag.

Frag changed, Sorc went wet, they added damage to cage now BOOM world loses its mind. That simple change now has people questioning literally every sorc skill.

Let's sort Frag / Cage first before adjusting everything else that's fundamental

I'm not sure how much you BG but this skill is literally gamebreaking. Two teams clash and duke it out, and any magsorc on the third team can sit in the bushes and get every one of the kills that occurs between the aforementioned two teams. It's busted and doesn't have to stay that way just because you're worried about what pseudo-nerf is coming for your Rune Cage free win button.

raasdal

I agree. That change would make it so that Sorcs cant steal kills in BG, while retaining the full power of the skill in both PvE as well as any kind of solo PvP. Only affects smallscale in a small way. But even that nerf, would be justified.

While we are at it, do the same to POTL (only caster damage)

Beardimus

Solariken wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I get people get narked at personal scores in BG and the mechanic.I'm open to a change happening, But all organised teams run a sorc for burst / execute. Simple. And the team gain having one, and sure battle of the steals will happen between 3 teams with one each.

A team of sorcs alone wouldn't be effective.

So really when folks upset by it I read their epeen is dented that in their PUG, in a DM, their 'score' was lower than the next guy. It's a team game. .. ... And kills count the most on one game type...

But hey. I'm open to why people are frustrated.

However what id say is until the mess with rune cage / frag is sorted out meddling with multiple class skills at once could be a disaster. Look at frag.

Frag changed, Sorc went wet, they added damage to cage now BOOM world loses its mind. That simple change now has people questioning literally every sorc skill.

Let's sort Frag / Cage first before adjusting everything else that's fundamental

I'm not sure how much you BG but this skill is literally gamebreaking. Two teams clash and duke it out, and any magsorc on the third team can sit in the bushes and get every one of the kills that occurs between the aforementioned two teams. It's busted and doesn't have to stay that way just because you're worried about what pseudo-nerf is coming for your Rune Cage free win button.

Sounds like Sorc paranoia there man. So what's the sorc on your team doing?

I said I know the mechanic. I've played BG from launch. My point is get a sorc on your team, then the only gripe left is your rank in your team which matters not, the healers always bottom in DM.How does Execute win chaosball, get relics, capture flags?

I'm talking perspective. I concur the scoring needs looking at but you also need perspective.

Ans the nerds to cage aren't pseudo. They real, right now its going to back to Dragonbones AND dodgeable, so worse than. Sorcs in that patch were not in a good place, and most would agree.

So yeah make a thread saying scoring on DM kills needs a look at with executes and I'll listen. Make one about nerfing yet another Sorc skill in a period of total balance mess with sorcs and ill speak up.

Ps, get a sorc in your team.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

This is only an issue in pug low MMR deathmatch BGs. Rather than change a fundamental skill that has been around since launch, I think the better answer is to look at how kills are calculated and scored in Deathmatch. I think the better solution is to give the KB to the person that procs the explosion.

Solariken

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

This is only an issue in pug low MMR deathmatch BGs. Rather than change a fundamental skill that has been around since launch, I think the better answer is to look at how kills are calculated and scored in Deathmatch. I think the better solution is to give the KB to the person that procs the explosion.

No this is a global deathmatch issue, not just low rank. Whatever the MMR scale is, I'm at its maximum, which lots of PC/NA players can attest to. I was in a deathmatch today where one team was clearly the actual victor, a total of 70 assists between them. The "winning" team was a bad premade with one magsorc with 30 kills and only 130k total damage - no other player on that team had over 4 kills. Liek, srsly.

The issue also goes deeper than scoring - medals are still awarded for killing blows and it's just silly that you can get credit for a killing blow without truly landing a killing blow.

I certainly expect magsorc player nay-saying on this suggestion as it directly impacts their scoring. But anyone who cares about this aspect of balance knows it deserves a proper solution.

Solariken

raasdal wrote: »

While we are at it, do the same to POTL (only caster damage)

I totally agree, Purifying Light especially is a bad zerg skill which is too strong Xv1 and a severe handicap when used in solo play. I would like to see this adjusted as well but it's nowhere near as important as Mage's Fury/Wrath at least in BG context.

GawdSB

How about the scoring for BG just changes. Theres's no reason I should get a player down to execute range and some sorc starts spamming their execute gets that last tick of health and gets any credit for that kill.

ItsNebula

Ive suggested some good changes for both PvE and PvP to the class rep (Im a MagSorc main)

Morph 1 - Take away the explosion chance, but make it undodgeable (Like steel tornado is...) and deal up to 300% more dmg (Like any other execute) and give magicka back upon kill.. great for PvP

Morph 2 - Keep the explosion after 4 seconds, if the target doesnt explode in 4 seconds, it leaves a 10k dot over 4 seconds. (5k DoT in PvP) Its dodgeable, and doesnt give magicka back upon kill... great for PvE

del9

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

This is only an issue in pug low MMR deathmatch BGs. Rather than change a fundamental skill that has been around since launch, I think the better answer is to look at how kills are calculated and scored in Deathmatch. I think the better solution is to give the KB to the person that procs the explosion.

No, this is an issue in the highest MMR matches as well. But I’ve always liked the idea of whoever triggers the proc gets the KB. But after some thought, that might be made more realistic by giving the explosion damage to the trigger-er. Or maybe not, I don’t see it changing anytime soon.

Mureel

Okay I like your post and its premise.

I understand your idea and the thought behind it.

Except: BGs are really a team effort and yeah, your 1k kills will take longer etc but: Nothing WORSE than bashing away at a super tanky, wing flappy DK, getting him to a sliver of health and well, out of mana (and I use one shield only and no resto, so just the sorc shield), and no one takes the kill shot!

That's a loss for the team.

I want my TEAM to win, and idc if I have 27 assists and 7 kills - I literally yelled into the discord 'nab the F kill! Do eeet!' because the 'u stol muh keel' thing is so prevalent, that my own teammate didn't want to steal my kill.

After a long fight and resouces getting iffy, I am like just KILL IT GOD!

I want a NB or. Sorc to just finish him.

That said, I really do understand your point - and I think it's especially low how other teams can steal the killing blow - but thems the breaks I guess.

Jimmy_The_Fixer

I think this is mostly a weakness of the 4v4v4 format. Turning every 3-way fight into a battle of the killsteals creates a scenario where death match is less about trying to win fights and more about trying to "last hit" players like this is DOTA or something.

Sorcs have a ridiculous killstealing tool, but that wouldn't matter if there wasn't such a huge emphasis on who got the killing blow.

Joy_Division

Paul Sage was right about a few things.

When asked why ZOS originally had no Battlegrounds, he said because the format and specifically the scoring mechanism would prompt many people to complain about skills that were intended to complement/synergize with teammates and were working just fine before.

It's a "kill steal" when a class with no execute, but good sustain pressure (like a DK) works together with a class with not very good sustain pressure but an execute (sorcerer).

Solariken

Joy_Division wrote: »

Paul Sage was right about a few things.

When asked why ZOS originally had no Battlegrounds, he said because the format and specifically the scoring mechanism would prompt many people to complain about skills that were intended to complement/synergize with teammates and were working just fine before.

It's a "kill steal" when a class with no execute, but good sustain pressure (like a DK) works together with a class with not very good sustain pressure but an execute (sorcerer).

Paul is a super intelligent guy and he was right about a lot of things, but also wrong about a lot of things.

We have a stellar BG framework in ESO - it's the best I've played and never gets old for me.

Sorc is not balanced in this environment though; it's a design abomination in multiple ways and needs a few tweaks to get it under control. Its issues are somewhat minimized in a sandbox like Cyrodiil but become glaringly apparent in a BG environment.

The execute issue is one that negatively exploits a scoring system - I would personally rather see the execute changed than the scoring since health bars flail wildly during a fight which can last several minutes which means that killing blow is the best metric. IMO it only makes sense that a Sorc get an execute if he actually triggers it.

I would also be open to changing the explosion/kill to be credited to anyone that triggers it - this retains the original synergistic nature of the skill but also implements a risk factor in spamming it where the 3rd team can steal the Sorc's kill.

ZarkingFrued

Oh boy, you guys got the rune cage nerf, now to just nerf EVERYTHING a sorc has in its toolkit and you will effectively delete an ESO class. You guys have it in ya! I believe in you! Just keep crying and Sorc will soon be gone and you can go to crying about nightblades! So proud!

Joy_Division

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Paul Sage was right about a few things.

When asked why ZOS originally had no Battlegrounds, he said because the format and specifically the scoring mechanism would prompt many people to complain about skills that were intended to complement/synergize with teammates and were working just fine before.

It's a "kill steal" when a class with no execute, but good sustain pressure (like a DK) works together with a class with not very good sustain pressure but an execute (sorcerer).

Paul is a super intelligent guy and he was right about a lot of things, but also wrong about a lot of things.

We have a stellar BG framework in ESO - it's the best I've played and never gets old for me.

Sorc is not balanced in this environment though; it's a design abomination in multiple ways and needs a few tweaks to get it under control. Its issues are somewhat minimized in a sandbox like Cyrodiil but become glaringly apparent in a BG environment.

The execute issue is one that negatively exploits a scoring system - I would personally rather see the execute changed than the scoring since health bars flail wildly during a fight which can last several minutes which means that killing blow is the best metric. IMO it only makes sense that a Sorc get an execute if he actually triggers it.

I would also be open to changing the explosion/kill to be credited to anyone that triggers it - this retains the original synergistic nature of the skill but also implements a risk factor in spamming it where the 3rd team can steal the Sorc's kill.

If the execute negatively exploits the scoring system, then there is no need to nerf a skill when it's the problem is with the scoring system.

Especially since Jesus Beam, Executioner, and poison Injection spam can also allow 3rd teams to "kill steal".

Aedaryl

Solariken wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I get people get narked at personal scores in BG and the mechanic.I'm open to a change happening, But all organised teams run a sorc for burst / execute. Simple. And the team gain having one, and sure battle of the steals will happen between 3 teams with one each.

A team of sorcs alone wouldn't be effective.

So really when folks upset by it I read their epeen is dented that in their PUG, in a DM, their 'score' was lower than the next guy. It's a team game. .. ... And kills count the most on one game type...

But hey. I'm open to why people are frustrated.

However what id say is until the mess with rune cage / frag is sorted out meddling with multiple class skills at once could be a disaster. Look at frag.

Frag changed, Sorc went wet, they added damage to cage now BOOM world loses its mind. That simple change now has people questioning literally every sorc skill.

Let's sort Frag / Cage first before adjusting everything else that's fundamental

I'm not sure how much you BG but this skill is literally gamebreaking. Two teams clash and duke it out, and any magsorc on the third team can sit in the bushes and get every one of the kills that occurs between the aforementioned two teams. It's busted and doesn't have to stay that way just because you're worried about what pseudo-nerf is coming for your Rune Cage free win button.

You don't get it.

Nerf battlegroung "killing" scoring, don't nerf a class defining skill in all game mode.

Next patch, Fury application will be 100% undodgeable wich is not (bugged) on live. Once it's fixed, the skill is fine.

jediodyn_ESO

Op’s idea is a very good one. Even if the Sorc needs to stack a dot to trigger the auto execute, it will at least reduce the amount of imbalance in PvP.

SilverWF

This skill is fine, no need to nerf.

Sharee

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Paul Sage was right about a few things.

When asked why ZOS originally had no Battlegrounds, he said because the format and specifically the scoring mechanism would prompt many people to complain about skills that were intended to complement/synergize with teammates and were working just fine before.

It's a "kill steal" when a class with no execute, but good sustain pressure (like a DK) works together with a class with not very good sustain pressure but an execute (sorcerer).

Paul is a super intelligent guy and he was right about a lot of things, but also wrong about a lot of things.

We have a stellar BG framework in ESO - it's the best I've played and never gets old for me.

Sorc is not balanced in this environment though; it's a design abomination in multiple ways and needs a few tweaks to get it under control. Its issues are somewhat minimized in a sandbox like Cyrodiil but become glaringly apparent in a BG environment.

The execute issue is one that negatively exploits a scoring system - I would personally rather see the execute changed than the scoring since health bars flail wildly during a fight which can last several minutes which means that killing blow is the best metric. IMO it only makes sense that a Sorc get an execute if he actually triggers it.

I would also be open to changing the explosion/kill to be credited to anyone that triggers it - this retains the original synergistic nature of the skill but also implements a risk factor in spamming it where the 3rd team can steal the Sorc's kill.

If the execute negatively exploits the scoring system, then there is no need to nerf a skill when it's the problem is with the scoring system.

Especially since Jesus Beam, Executioner, and poison Injection spam can also allow 3rd teams to "kill steal".

Those however do not deal their damage at the exact same moment target's life falls below 20% (and thus basically ensuring it will be always them who gets the killing blow, like fury does).

How about this: The killing blow goes to the player who last used a damaging ability or basic attack on the target before it died.
Meaning, sorc casts fury, i light attack bringing target below 20%, fury blows up and kills target, but i get credit because i was the last to activate an attack on the target.
If i light attack bringing target below 20%, then a sorc casts fury which blows up and kills target, the sorc gets the kill.

MalagenR

Aedaryl wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I get people get narked at personal scores in BG and the mechanic.I'm open to a change happening, But all organised teams run a sorc for burst / execute. Simple. And the team gain having one, and sure battle of the steals will happen between 3 teams with one each.

A team of sorcs alone wouldn't be effective.

So really when folks upset by it I read their epeen is dented that in their PUG, in a DM, their 'score' was lower than the next guy. It's a team game. .. ... And kills count the most on one game type...

But hey. I'm open to why people are frustrated.

However what id say is until the mess with rune cage / frag is sorted out meddling with multiple class skills at once could be a disaster. Look at frag.

Frag changed, Sorc went wet, they added damage to cage now BOOM world loses its mind. That simple change now has people questioning literally every sorc skill.

Let's sort Frag / Cage first before adjusting everything else that's fundamental

I'm not sure how much you BG but this skill is literally gamebreaking. Two teams clash and duke it out, and any magsorc on the third team can sit in the bushes and get every one of the kills that occurs between the aforementioned two teams. It's busted and doesn't have to stay that way just because you're worried about what pseudo-nerf is coming for your Rune Cage free win button.

You don't get it.

Nerf battlegroung "killing" scoring, don't nerf a class defining skill in all game mode.

Next patch, Fury application will be 100% undodgeable wich is not (bugged) on live. Once it's fixed, the skill is fine.

wait, you mean people can't dodge fury or can't dodge the proc?

raasdal

Damage should be accredited to the person triggering the fury, not the casting sorc. Just like a reflect makes the damage accredit to the reflector, and not the original caster. Easy fix, and would not impact the actual performance of the skill.

leepalmer95

Can we not nerf a class defining skill just so its not strong in 1 of 4 battle ground game modes?

Battle grounds being the lower popular pvp option by far.

Other executes scale at 50%, fury just only works at 20%.

Try using other execute such as beam at 20% hp and people die immediately.

Other executes actual deal boosted dmg between 21%-50% such as beam and exectioner. Fury doesn't.

At 20% fury hits hard, at 20% others hit hard. Fury trades or being a useless skill until 20% for being able to auto proc if its on people.

Solariken

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Can we not nerf a class defining skill just so its not strong in 1 of 4 battle ground game modes?

Battle grounds being the lower popular pvp option by far.

Other executes scale at 50%, fury just only works at 20%.

Try using other execute such as beam at 20% hp and people die immediately.

Other executes actual deal boosted dmg between 21%-50% such as beam and exectioner. Fury doesn't.

At 20% fury hits hard, at 20% others hit hard. Fury trades or being a useless skill until 20% for being able to auto proc if its on people.

No one is saying that the skill is OP with regard to damage or base mechanics. The problem is that the sorc is credited with the kill whether he achieved it or not.

Micah_Bayer

Solariken wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Can we not nerf a class defining skill just so its not strong in 1 of 4 battle ground game modes?

Battle grounds being the lower popular pvp option by far.

Other executes scale at 50%, fury just only works at 20%.

Try using other execute such as beam at 20% hp and people die immediately.

Other executes actual deal boosted dmg between 21%-50% such as beam and exectioner. Fury doesn't.

At 20% fury hits hard, at 20% others hit hard. Fury trades or being a useless skill until 20% for being able to auto proc if its on people.

No one is saying that the skill is OP with regard to damage or base mechanics. The problem is that the sorc is credited with the kill whether he achieved it or not.

Then change the scoring mechanics not the skill because the skill is not the problem yet you want to nerf it..

leepalmer95

Solariken wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Can we not nerf a class defining skill just so its not strong in 1 of 4 battle ground game modes?

Battle grounds being the lower popular pvp option by far.

Other executes scale at 50%, fury just only works at 20%.

Try using other execute such as beam at 20% hp and people die immediately.

Other executes actual deal boosted dmg between 21%-50% such as beam and exectioner. Fury doesn't.

At 20% fury hits hard, at 20% others hit hard. Fury trades or being a useless skill until 20% for being able to auto proc if its on people.

No one is saying that the skill is OP with regard to damage or base mechanics. The problem is that the sorc is credited with the kill whether he achieved it or not.

Yet thats only a problem in 1 game mode in bg's.

Change the scoring mechanic to whoever did the most dmg gets the kill or something. Why nerf the skill and nerf it for everything pvp + pve?

Masel

This skill is way too effective in deathmatches, anyone saying it isn't hasn't really played a lot of them or is sorc-biased, simple as that. The idea posted by the OP is a very good one, and would solve the issue we have rn. Magsorc in BGs is literally just putting this skill on everyone and waiting for others to do the work, but you get the points.

Everytime I play my sorc I am on top of the pointboard in BGs and this skill is the reason why. I hate it when I have it against me and I also hate how easy it is to get kills with it when I use it.

Masel

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Can we not nerf a class defining skill just so its not strong in 1 of 4 battle ground game modes?

Battle grounds being the lower popular pvp option by far.

Other executes scale at 50%, fury just only works at 20%.

Try using other execute such as beam at 20% hp and people die immediately.

Other executes actual deal boosted dmg between 21%-50% such as beam and exectioner. Fury doesn't.

At 20% fury hits hard, at 20% others hit hard. Fury trades or being a useless skill until 20% for being able to auto proc if its on people.

No one is saying that the skill is OP with regard to damage or base mechanics. The problem is that the sorc is credited with the kill whether he achieved it or not.

Yet thats only a problem in 1 game mode in bg's.

Change the scoring mechanic to whoever did the most dmg gets the kill or something. Why nerf the skill and nerf it for everything pvp + pve?

The OP suggested a solution that is no nerf anywhere else, only in the scenario that is described above. In pve any dot you use triggers it within 0.2 seconds max, and in other pvp scenarios you deal damage against a certain target anyway.

leepalmer95

Masel92 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Can we not nerf a class defining skill just so its not strong in 1 of 4 battle ground game modes?

Battle grounds being the lower popular pvp option by far.

Other executes scale at 50%, fury just only works at 20%.

Try using other execute such as beam at 20% hp and people die immediately.

Other executes actual deal boosted dmg between 21%-50% such as beam and exectioner. Fury doesn't.

At 20% fury hits hard, at 20% others hit hard. Fury trades or being a useless skill until 20% for being able to auto proc if its on people.

No one is saying that the skill is OP with regard to damage or base mechanics. The problem is that the sorc is credited with the kill whether he achieved it or not.

Yet thats only a problem in 1 game mode in bg's.

Change the scoring mechanic to whoever did the most dmg gets the kill or something. Why nerf the skill and nerf it for everything pvp + pve?

The OP suggested a solution that is no nerf anywhere else, only in the scenario that is described above. In pve any dot you use triggers it within 0.2 seconds max, and in other pvp scenarios you deal damage against a certain target anyway.

But what if im in a group and get told to fury the enemy while someone else bursts? Does my fury not go off them?

Does that mean that unless a templar is jabbing an enemy their beam shouldn't be doing dmg?

Fury has been the same since the game came out? Why are people suddenly assured that its OP now?

You sure its just not because mag sorc become fotm class, likely because of the uncalled for crying about rune cage and there is a horde of noobs on mag sorcs in zergs now? Hence you die from fury a lot?