On a dummy, which class gains the most from bloodthirsty + bloodthirsty theory crafting

Samwell Slayer · July 2018

First the answer to get you hooked: the answer if the mag dk. Many people find this very counter intuitive (surely is must be the templar or stamblade .. anybody but the magdk, they don't even have an execute!?) and I've been called every name in the book because of this (apparently I am a ***, lol). In this post, I plan on giving the very very simple reason why this is true, and some general bloodthirsty theory crafting formulas.

Samwell Slayer · July 2018

Ok, I plan I write this in increasing levels of difficultly. Hopefully everybody understands the first bit, but as I go on towards the end, probably only the theory crafters will understand the end.

First, why Mag DK?

Roughly, the mag dk "needs it" more. Imagine you are in a race, the rules are you need to run for 5 miles than drive for 5 miles. Which would you rather do 10% faster? Obviously, since most of your time will be running (unless your car sucks or your a leopard) you'd want to reduce the time you spend running by 10% (plus running sucks). I'll explain this in a bit more detail.

The reason is really simple when you think of it: on a dummy (will talk about in a raid towards the end), the damage you do is constant. If you're killing a 3 million dummy, you need to do 3 million damage, period (duh). Your dps on that dummy is simply 3 million/t where t is the amount of time you took to kill the damn thing. This is obvious, and it marks a big difference between this situation and a raid (where the amount of damage is the only factor as to whether you can embarrass your friends with your awesome parse compared to their ... less than awesome parse).

Point being, whoever kills the dummy faster has the most dps. For argument sake, let's take a magdk and something else, for argument sake let's say stamblade. Let's say they have exactly the same dps on the dummy with all of jewls have no traits. <b> THIS MEANS THEY KILLED THE DUMMY IN EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME. </b>. Now the stamblade has higher execute (calling execute 25% and below, sorry sorcs) dps than the magdk, who does roughly the same dps (ignoring rampup) in execute as they do throughout the rest of the parse. OTOH, the stamblade will do more dps in execute than do in the rest of the parse (rough estimate w/o bt is about 20-30%, would love some testers to get better numbers). This means, the mag dk will spend 1/4 of their parse with dummy 25% and below of its health, but the stamdk, having higher dps in execute will spend less time in execute than 1/4 . But the two spend the same total time, so the stamblade spends less time in execute (and more time in non-execture) than the mag dk.

To put in concrete numbers (exaggerating them so they come out nice) say they both spend 60 seconds on their parse and

Mag dk. Stamblade

60 60. total time
45. 50. time non-execute.
15. 10. time execute

Now, blood thirsty takes off the same percent of time from both classes (it's 1/1.1*time in execute = new time in execute) in both cases, but since the stamblade spends less time in execute that is shaving off less seconds then what is shaved off from the mag dk. (let's fudge it and say 10% off, different from dividing by 1.1, but close enough), so the roughly the magdk takes 1.5 seconds off their parse while the stam blade takes off only 1 second. So, the new parse the mag dk kills it in 58.5 seconds while the stamblade kills it in 59 seconds. Since the stamblade takes longer to kill the same exact target, he now has less dps than the mag dk.

Next post I will give you the exact formulas if yo uwant to put them into your calculator and play around with them yourself.

Samwell Slayer · July 2018

(Sorry, used to know how to make math look nice here, but I that's wayyy to hard for me right now, so you just get these crap equations)

Most people get the basic formulas wrong. If your dps in execute (again, 25% and below) is d_e and your dps in the other parts of the fight is d_o (and the total dps is just d), many people use the wrong formula

d= 3/4 *d_o+1/4*d_e. <<<<~~~~ crap formula

Afterall, 3/4 of your time is in non-execute, right? NOPE. 3/4 of the DAMAGE YOU DO is in non execute, not time. To see that this formula is crap, just take the easy casy that you manage to blade of woe the skelly from 25% to 0% instantly (so d_e would be infinite). The crap formula above would mean that your total dps would be infinite, which is obviously nonsense cuz maybe your hacker ass took 3 hours to actually get the skelly down to 25%. before you treated like an Mf'er. As indicated, to get the correct formula use t, not damage. the currect formula flips everything around:

1/d= 3/4 *1/d_o+1/4*1/d_e. <<<<~~~~ correct, non crappy, formula.

To see this note that (using the implied notation with L = life, e.g. 3Million or 6 million, i.e. the dummies health)

t = t_o + t_e. =>. t/L = t_o/L+t_e/L (using d = L/d and 3/4*L=L_o and 1/4*L=L_e).
1/d = t_o/(4/3*L_o)+t_e/(4/1*Le) = 3/4 * t_o/L_o + 1/4 * t_e /L_e = 3/4 *1/d_o + 1/4*1/d_e,

which is what I freaking told you it would be!

This means (ignoring what blood thirsty damage boost is additive with, haven't bothered to check this, again asking the people who like game testing) that with one piece of blood thirty jewl you get

1/d' = 3/4*1/d_o+1/4*1/(1.1*d_e). <~~~ new dps with one piece of gold bt jewl replacing a non traited jewl

(prime is with bloodthirsty) since d_o=d_o' (blood thirsty doesn't affect dps for the first 75 percent) while d_e' = 1.1 *d_e (again, just being lazy and saying blood thirst multiplies with everything ... ). Screw, while we're at it let's not use 1.1 but use a new constant, b, for the gain in dps in execute (so with one gold bt jewl b= 1.1, two would be 1.2, one purple would be 1.09, etc), so

1/d' = 3/4*1/d_o+1/4*1/(b*d_e).

Dividing to get what we really really want, the gain in dps, we have

d'/d=(1/d)/(1/d') = (3/4 *1/d_o+1/4*1/d_e)/(3/4*1/d_o+1/4*1/(b*d_e))

(canceling some crap out)
= (3+a) /(3+a/b).
where a is t_o/t_e (a number less than), i.e. how much less damage you do before execute before chucking on a blood thirsty ring (or whatever to increase your execute dps by b).

Let's just check the obvious cases to make us "believe" this a bit more: if b=1 (i.e. you don't change a damn thing) then we have 3+a divided by 3+a, i.e. 1, i.e. chaning nothing ... doesn't change your dps. Taking first derivative wrt to a (i.e. how much less damage you do before execute) we get

(3-3/b)/(3+a/b)^2

which is positive for b>1 (i.e. doing more dps in execute), so as the ratio of dps before execute to execute increases, the dps goes up (which is just a fancy way of saying the mag dk wins, which we argued in the last part.

In the next part, we look at blood thirty in a raid, where the answers are bit more intuitive (mag dks, don't you dare wear bloodthirsty there!), but still a bit strange. Maybe strange enough for you to actually forget about the mag dks off balence stealing issues in your raid.

(Note, I really don't feel like writing this all out, so I will base whether or not I write the last part out (which I assume is written out elsewhere already) on how much attention these first few parts get.

geonsocal · July 2018

are the results similar for a stam dk...

what about a mag warden?

AbysmalGhul · July 2018

geonsocal wrote: »

are the results similar for a stam dk...

what about a mag warden?

Yes, instigate another wall of text you!

Samwell Slayer · July 2018

geonsocal wrote: »

are the results similar for a stam dk...

what about a mag warden?

In general the higher execute dps the less dos gain in a dummy. So, I'd guess on a dummy it would be

Mag T > Stam blade > Stam Warden > Stam Sorc > mag nb > Stam dk = Stamplar > Mag sorc > mag warden > mag dk

From most to least useful on a dummy. You would need to test for yourself how much extra dps your toon gets in execute. You can this using combat metrics by writing down how lomg it takes you to get to execute or by hotkey the addons reset fight data.

nickl413 · July 2018

Something is wrong. Some of your text comes out weird, like:

t = t_o + t_e. =>. t/L = t_o/L+t_e/L (using d = L/d and 3/4*L=L_o and 1/4*L=L_e).
1/d = t_o/(4/3*L_o)+t_e/(4/1*Le) = 3/4 * t_o/L_o + 1/4 * t_e /L_e = 3/4 *1/d_o + 1/4*1/d_e,

were you trying to insert the clapping hand emoji?

SilverWF · July 2018

Samwell Slayer wrote: »

d= 3/4 *d_o+1/4*d_e. <<<<~~~~ crap formula

1/d= 3/4 *1/d_o+1/4*1/d_e. <<<<~~~~ correct, non crappy, formula.

t = t_o + t_e. =>. t/L = t_o/L+t_e/L (using d = L/d and 3/4*L=L_o and 1/4*L=L_e).
1/d = t_o/(4/3*L_o)+t_e/(4/1*Le) = 3/4 * t_o/L_o + 1/4 * t_e /L_e = 3/4 *1/d_o + 1/4*1/d_e,

1/d' = 3/4*1/d_o+1/4*1/(1.1*d_e). <~~~ new dps with one piece of gold bt jewl replacing a non traited jewl

1/d' = 3/4*1/d_o+1/4*1/(b*d_e).

d'/d=(1/d)/(1/d') = (3/4 *1/d_o+1/4*1/d_e)/(3/4*1/d_o+1/4*1/(b*d_e))
...

Man, are you sane?

Seriously, what are you calculated there? It looks like Sun rays multiplied by EU countries and divided by my bad mood.

Every piece of jewelry, naturally has main stat for DD: stam or mag. Reducing this stat would reduce DPS too.
Have you remembered about this in your 'math'? Seems not.

BT jewelry works just like it is stated in the tooltip and nothing else. And yes, this trait is useless, unless you are fighting against boss with insane amounts of HP. And even here I'm not sure

geonsocal · July 2018

Samwell Slayer wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

are the results similar for a stam dk...

what about a mag warden?

geonsocal wrote: »

are the results similar for a stam dk...

what about a mag warden?

geonsocal wrote: »

are the results similar for a stam dk...

what about a mag warden?

geonsocal wrote: »

are the results similar for a stam dk...

what about a mag warden?

geonsocal wrote: »

are the results similar for a stam dk...

what about a mag warden?

In general the higher execute dps the less dos gain in a dummy. So, I'd guess on a dummy it would be

Mag T > Stam blade > Stam Warden > Stam Sorc > mag nb > Stam dk = Stamplar > Mag sorc > mag warden > mag dk

From most to least useful on a dummy. You would need to test for yourself how much extra dps your toon gets in execute. You can this using combat metrics by writing down how lomg it takes you to get to execute or by hotkey the addons reset fight data.

thanks @Samwell Slayer interesting to see magplar at the top...

never thought about buffing the execute damage on radiant oppression even more...

Vesper_BR · July 2018

Can u guys explain in a simple way what u mean? O.o (sorry I'm sleepy now and my mind is a little confused...)

What's better for my mag dk? 3 arcane or 2 arcane 1 bloodthirsty? Or other option?

Samwell Slayer · July 2018

Vesper_BR wrote: »

Can u guys explain in a simple way what u mean? O.o (sorry I'm sleepy now and my mind is a little confused...)

What's better for my mag dk? 3 arcane or 2 arcane 1 bloodthirsty? Or other option?

Depends on your stats, sets, race, etc. On a dummy I'd guess at least a couple of bloodthirsty but would need to know your exact stats

ZOS_JesC · July 2018

Greetings, we've removed a few baiting comments. This is a friendly reminder to keep comments constructive and civil. Thank you.