Nothing addressing the “Nightblade Meta” we’re currently saddled with

Qbiken

Sparr0w wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

How would you change it?

@Tasear
I wouldn't change nightblades, they reward skill which is exactly how it should be. They also specialise in DPS roles.

I think classes are fairly balanced in the big picture, just not in terms of DPS.

• Solo play - Sorc
• DPS - Nightblade
• Tank - DK
• Healer - Templar
• Decent at all - Warden

If anything all classes could do with slight tweaks in terms of roles they don't specialise in, as well as some sustain added into the mix. Can't really give any specifics without prior thought as it would have to stay balanced in PvP terms as well.

NB - Synergies... where they at?
Sorc - Pets are clunky, sustaining is a minigame, no class spammable.
Templar - Execute is a DPS loss (will have to test after the patch), 'spammable' is clunky (why 1.1s...).
DK - no spammable for stam, no execute, melee range.
Warden - don't personally play one, but not heard anything good about them dps terms.

Also making content which requires both stam and mag dps would be nice to see, the initial trials (AA/MoL) catered to both and are the most enjoyable imo.

Playing a nightblade isn´t exactly more skillful than playing any other class. Sorry but the "difficult rotation" argument doesn´t work anymore, and even if they still would´ve had a difficult rotation (keep in mind that we players create the rotations, not ZOS) it´s still a pretty bad reason to justify why one class should be so far ahead of other classes as they are.

Sparr0w

Qbiken wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

How would you change it?

@Tasear
I wouldn't change nightblades, they reward skill which is exactly how it should be. They also specialise in DPS roles.

I think classes are fairly balanced in the big picture, just not in terms of DPS.

• Solo play - Sorc
• DPS - Nightblade
• Tank - DK
• Healer - Templar
• Decent at all - Warden

If anything all classes could do with slight tweaks in terms of roles they don't specialise in, as well as some sustain added into the mix. Can't really give any specifics without prior thought as it would have to stay balanced in PvP terms as well.

NB - Synergies... where they at?
Sorc - Pets are clunky, sustaining is a minigame, no class spammable.
Templar - Execute is a DPS loss (will have to test after the patch), 'spammable' is clunky (why 1.1s...).
DK - no spammable for stam, no execute, melee range.
Warden - don't personally play one, but not heard anything good about them dps terms.

Also making content which requires both stam and mag dps would be nice to see, the initial trials (AA/MoL) catered to both and are the most enjoyable imo.

Playing a nightblade isn´t exactly more skillful than playing any other class. Sorry but the "difficult rotation" argument doesn´t work anymore, and even if they still would´ve had a difficult rotation (keep in mind that we players create the rotations, not ZOS) it´s still a pretty bad reason to justify why one class should be so far ahead of other classes as they are.

@Qbiken
They're only 'so far ahead' on a target dummy. Don't forget that in trials all other classes will get access to Minor Beserk via their healers, so you instantly gain the 8% damage buff that Nightblades have built into their kit. Plus on a nightblade messing up your weaving will hurt more than on any other class.

Increasing sustain on other classes would also lessen this gap since as it stands nighblades are the only class that can comfortably sustain a full light attack rotation.

Onefrkncrzypope

Sparr0w wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

How would you change it?

I think classes are fairly balanced in the big picture, just not in terms of DPS.

• Solo play - Sorc
• DPS - Nightblade
• Tank - DK
• Healer - Templar
• Decent at all - Warden

....

That list and the disadvantages that you list isn't quite right and shows imbalance.
Solo Play- First the definition of solo play needs to be addressed. is it over world PvE? PvP solo play? vMA? because Sorcs only beat out nbs in one of those examples(magblades in PVP(maybe)).

DPS- There shouldn't ever be only one class for PvE dps. People don't want to play one class forever. People have favorite classes or most of the time classes they hate. Like I really hate magblade, I'm red green color blind and on console, honestly F*** that class. So I'm just not going to be a DD if I play this game? I want to be able to play and I want magblades to be able to play and DD wardens. I know they can all currently play but I mean to be relevant, to be not be excluded because Magblades hit 20k higher no matter what you do to your warden build. Some classes should hit harder than other classes, honestly that's fine but there is too much of a difference between classes this patch.

Tank- this is really untrue. I have been tanking for way to long on a DK so I have been enjoying my side chick warden recently and found them to be almost equal. Sustain is a little harder on warden but really the only reason that a group can argue for a DK tank is engulfing flames and that's it. Really that's all. have an OT/MT warden/dk combo no one could tell the difference. Other class's tanking does need help though.

Healing - Shards make a Templar, BOL isn't unique, healing in general is pretty high on all classes, most classes run the heal staff skill, resource return skills, and a heavy heal. Templars are favored because their heavy heal is just too easy. Sorcs need to double bar twilight heal, night blades can be killed by their skill, and wardens is a double button press that the tank might synergize. Shards is the only real difference other than ease for heals.

decent at all - Uhh sorry I wish but no. The phrase you can use to be right is designed to be decent at all. The warden is the issues with ZoS balance in a nut shell. Stamwardens are garbage PvE and the opposite in PvP. Magwardens are just garbage.
Why? Well they both suck in PvE because both(because of jack of trades design) only have a few relevant skills for DD and have listed other roles above. I can go further into the warden convo but this is about the bigger picture(I started into a rant about the freaking bear....then deleted it).

MY opinion of what balance could be:

PVE:
Melee classes should always hit harder that ranged classes but only if there is a choke point on how many melee classes you can bring.(vmol first boss curses, back yard, meteor mechanics on Rakkaht, etc) There is also really on one magic class still stuck at melee, mDK. So get them hitting close to Stam but survive better or adds some more utility.

Classes with executes should have a lower sustained dps but average out to the same(ish) total DPS. This makes them very applicable in the long dangerous execute fight but with mechanics that are hard in the non execute will keep the number of execute toons lower.

The final piece of the balance puzzle for PvE? Don't try to make all classes jack of trades. Each class should be designed around a simple idea. Every class should be in the same ball park for DD maybe 1-4% difference in possible dps. Then each class should be designed to do one utility role well. This keeps the issue of trying to shove all three roles into 15 skills(ultis for utility roles are usually Warhorn and barrier).

How I would do the role selection(again all classes can do DD): Tanks: DKs Wardens NBs. Healers: Sorcs Templars. I know people are not following the above setup but I'm saying that the classes should excel in two roles but can do all three.

PvP:
Proc sets are just garbage for balance. oblivion damage doesn't kill perma blockers exclusively. Burst Damage >>(much much greater than) DOTS. Poisons destroy classes that don't sustain well(DKs). Larger groups >>> than organized small groups. SOLO play has no place in this part of this game.

There is really no exact answer to solve the class balance in PvP but there are a lot of other easy fixes for PvP issues listed above that will make class balance a lot less muddied.

Sorry for the wall

ezio45

hakan wrote: »

How about making incap/ soul harvests 20 percent more damage buff active at 120 ult? so warmachine and master architect get procced less.

at that point they might as well run destro

not for or against this just saying

ezio45

CultOfMMO wrote: »

RedVyperOfDorne wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

At first I thought this thread was a joke, and then I realized you were talking about PvE. Yeah, you're right lol.

I'm actually all for Nightblades being top in DPS because they need to be in order to justify the difficulty of their rotation. The self healing of magblades is pretty over the top though. Yeah their damage needs to be higher, but they kind of have it too good.

Their rotation is not more difficult, it's simply their rotation guides players towards more dynamic game-play. ANY class can and should be played dynamically to maximize DPS. However a mage-blade can be driven under a static rotation and still pull higher DPS than other classes. This all comes down to experience.

i highly doubt a STRICTLY static magblade rotation will break 46k solo 6mil and my magsorc is parsing 47k solo on live accounting for minor berserk so your statement is questionable. I've reached 49k solo 6mil on my magblade but i can say that took A LOT of work. i was stuck at 45 46k ish for the longest time and almost decided to just stick with magsorc.

this magblade meta is different from the magsorc meta back in homestead because magsorcs (specifically the OP pets back then) are brain dead bandwagon-friendly setups that anyone can pick up and have good results. In contrast outside of elite guild folks my magsorc is outparsing every single magblade i've enocuntered, sometimes by a large margin.

i'll be honest it amuses me to no end whenever i see ppl worship magblades when they cant even come close to my magsorc. That's why imo magblade's "dominance" is justified because the rotation is significantly harder and its just not for everyone. Theres really only a tiny percentage of ESO population that can fully utilize the complex kit of a magblade.

on ps4 mnbs are hitting 55k and thats without combat metrics and timers, non pet sorcs are hitting 35-40k and pets are hitting 44k

John_Falstaff

@Sparr0w , sorry, but I'm strongly against that division. After ZOS' "play as you like" suddenly and officially locking classes into certain roles simply won't do. Imagine players maining stamina DK and enjoying role of DPS trying hard - for many many months - to excel at this role, and then they're told: sorry, folks, we can't make your class a good DPS, so either be tanks, or roll something else (something you potentially can't stand).

So, no, it's too late to invent some specializations for different classes to justify their poor design. What I rather would have is better scaling with player skill. In other thread, NB players bring argument about more difficult playstyle. I don't share it (every class has different durations on skills and has to weave), but let's assume it's right to a point, there's a learning curve. I'd be absolutely okay with extending other classes with leaning curve, extend current abilities (Merciless Resolve is an example of harder-to-use ability that pays off) in a way that would let good players scale their classes for great results.

Sparr0w

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

How would you change it?

I think classes are fairly balanced in the big picture, just not in terms of DPS.

• Solo play - Sorc
• DPS - Nightblade
• Tank - DK
• Healer - Templar
• Decent at all - Warden

....

That list and the disadvantages that you list isn't quite right and shows imbalance.
Solo Play- First the definition of solo play needs to be addressed. is it over world PvE? PvP solo play? vMA? because Sorcs only beat out nbs in one of those examples(magblades in PVP(maybe)).

DPS- There shouldn't ever be only one class for PvE dps. People don't want to play one class forever. People have favorite classes or most of the time classes they hate. Like I really hate magblade, I'm red green color blind and on console, honestly F*** that class. So I'm just not going to be a DD if I play this game? I want to be able to play and I want magblades to be able to play and DD wardens. I know they can all currently play but I mean to be relevant, to be not be excluded because Magblades hit 20k higher no matter what you do to your warden build. Some classes should hit harder than other classes, honestly that's fine but there is too much of a difference between classes this patch.

Tank- this is really untrue. I have been tanking for way to long on a DK so I have been enjoying my side chick warden recently and found them to be almost equal. Sustain is a little harder on warden but really the only reason that a group can argue for a DK tank is engulfing flames and that's it. Really that's all. have an OT/MT warden/dk combo no one could tell the difference. Other class's tanking does need help though.

Healing - Shards make a Templar, BOL isn't unique, healing in general is pretty high on all classes, most classes run the heal staff skill, resource return skills, and a heavy heal. Templars are favored because their heavy heal is just too easy. Sorcs need to double bar twilight heal, night blades can be killed by their skill, and wardens is a double button press that the tank might synergize. Shards is the only real difference other than ease for heals.

decent at all - Uhh sorry I wish but no. The phrase you can use to be right is designed to be decent at all. The warden is the issues with ZoS balance in a nut shell. Stamwardens are garbage PvE and the opposite in PvP. Magwardens are just garbage.
Why? Well they both suck in PvE because both(because of jack of trades design) only have a few relevant skills for DD and have listed other roles above. I can go further into the warden convo but this is about the bigger picture(I started into a rant about the freaking bear....then deleted it).

MY opinion of what balance could be:

PVE:
Melee classes should always hit harder that ranged classes but only if there is a choke point on how many melee classes you can bring.(vmol first boss curses, back yard, meteor mechanics on Rakkaht, etc) There is also really on one magic class still stuck at melee, mDK. So get them hitting close to Stam but survive better or adds some more utility.

Classes with executes should have a lower sustained dps but average out to the same(ish) total DPS. This makes them very applicable in the long dangerous execute fight but with mechanics that are hard in the non execute will keep the number of execute toons lower.

The final piece of the balance puzzle for PvE? Don't try to make all classes jack of trades. Each class should be designed around a simple idea. Every class should be in the same ball park for DD maybe 1-4% difference in possible dps. Then each class should be designed to do one utility role well. This keeps the issue of trying to shove all three roles into 15 skills(ultis for utility roles are usually Warhorn and barrier).

How I would do the role selection(again all classes can do DD): Tanks: DKs Wardens NBs. Healers: Sorcs Templars. I know people are not following the above setup but I'm saying that the classes should excel in two roles but can do all three.

PvP:
Proc sets are just garbage for balance. oblivion damage doesn't kill perma blockers exclusively. Burst Damage >>(much much greater than) DOTS. Poisons destroy classes that don't sustain well(DKs). Larger groups >>> than organized small groups. SOLO play has no place in this part of this game.

There is really no exact answer to solve the class balance in PvP but there are a lot of other easy fixes for PvP issues listed above that will make class balance a lot less muddied.

Sorry for the wall

Don't disagree one bit, just stating the roles certain classes excel at (bar wardens, they need love on a spiritual level).

DK's are slightly better at tanking than other classes (sustain, group buffs)

Sorcs are slightly better at solo play than other classes (shields, pets)

Templars are slightly better at healing than other classes (synergies, BoL, cleanse)

Nightblades are slightly better at dps than other classes (a LOT better on a dummy due to minor beserk and being able to sustain a full light attack rotation)

Wardens are DECENT at all, e.g. they can tank efficiently (2nd best), they can heal efficiently (2nd best), they can pull end game dps (35k?) but as said their design is flawed as 35k doesn't meet the requirements for most end game raids and being 2nd best will likely see them left out.

All classes need to be buffed a little in areas they're lacking in and sustain needs love on all classes.

All classes shouldn't be equal in terms of dps as they aren't equal in other aspects, however all classes should be close enough to the point they won't get left out.

Sparr0w

ezio45 wrote: »

CultOfMMO wrote: »

RedVyperOfDorne wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

At first I thought this thread was a joke, and then I realized you were talking about PvE. Yeah, you're right lol.

I'm actually all for Nightblades being top in DPS because they need to be in order to justify the difficulty of their rotation. The self healing of magblades is pretty over the top though. Yeah their damage needs to be higher, but they kind of have it too good.

Their rotation is not more difficult, it's simply their rotation guides players towards more dynamic game-play. ANY class can and should be played dynamically to maximize DPS. However a mage-blade can be driven under a static rotation and still pull higher DPS than other classes. This all comes down to experience.

i highly doubt a STRICTLY static magblade rotation will break 46k solo 6mil and my magsorc is parsing 47k solo on live accounting for minor berserk so your statement is questionable. I've reached 49k solo 6mil on my magblade but i can say that took A LOT of work. i was stuck at 45 46k ish for the longest time and almost decided to just stick with magsorc.

this magblade meta is different from the magsorc meta back in homestead because magsorcs (specifically the OP pets back then) are brain dead bandwagon-friendly setups that anyone can pick up and have good results. In contrast outside of elite guild folks my magsorc is outparsing every single magblade i've enocuntered, sometimes by a large margin.

i'll be honest it amuses me to no end whenever i see ppl worship magblades when they cant even come close to my magsorc. That's why imo magblade's "dominance" is justified because the rotation is significantly harder and its just not for everyone. Theres really only a tiny percentage of ESO population that can fully utilize the complex kit of a magblade.

on ps4 mnbs are hitting 55k and thats without combat metrics and timers, non pet sorcs are hitting 35-40k and pets are hitting 44k

Non pet & pet sorcs are hitting 45-50k magblades are hitting 45-55k, heck I hit 42k and I've had my sorc less than a month.

As it stands mnb's pull 10% more dps

Plus those hitting 55k have memorised a full minute long rotation so they're applying everything on cool down and shooting the bow every 5 attacks.

Qbiken

Sparr0w wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

How would you change it?

@Tasear
I wouldn't change nightblades, they reward skill which is exactly how it should be. They also specialise in DPS roles.

I think classes are fairly balanced in the big picture, just not in terms of DPS.

• Solo play - Sorc
• DPS - Nightblade
• Tank - DK
• Healer - Templar
• Decent at all - Warden

If anything all classes could do with slight tweaks in terms of roles they don't specialise in, as well as some sustain added into the mix. Can't really give any specifics without prior thought as it would have to stay balanced in PvP terms as well.

NB - Synergies... where they at?
Sorc - Pets are clunky, sustaining is a minigame, no class spammable.
Templar - Execute is a DPS loss (will have to test after the patch), 'spammable' is clunky (why 1.1s...).
DK - no spammable for stam, no execute, melee range.
Warden - don't personally play one, but not heard anything good about them dps terms.

Also making content which requires both stam and mag dps would be nice to see, the initial trials (AA/MoL) catered to both and are the most enjoyable imo.

Playing a nightblade isn´t exactly more skillful than playing any other class. Sorry but the "difficult rotation" argument doesn´t work anymore, and even if they still would´ve had a difficult rotation (keep in mind that we players create the rotations, not ZOS) it´s still a pretty bad reason to justify why one class should be so far ahead of other classes as they are.

@Qbiken
They're only 'so far ahead' on a target dummy. Don't forget that in trials all other classes will get access to Minor Beserk via their healers, so you instantly gain the 8% damage buff that Nightblades have built into their kit. Plus on a nightblade messing up your weaving will hurt more than on any other class.

Increasing sustain on other classes would also lessen this gap since as it stands nighblades are the only class that can comfortably sustain a full light attack rotation.

You´ve my agree there

MehrunesFlagon

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

NB rotation is not any harder than any other proper rotation. Unsure why NBs like to view themselves as special people when EVERYONE has to do weaving and anim cancel perfectly for perfect rotation with weaves. And no. Will proc doesn't add more difficulty because you weave anyways.

Magblade rotation is not harder,however is very unforgiving.

IZZEFlameLash

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

NB rotation is not any harder than any other proper rotation. Unsure why NBs like to view themselves as special people when EVERYONE has to do weaving and anim cancel perfectly for perfect rotation with weaves. And no. Will proc doesn't add more difficulty because you weave anyways.

Magblade rotation is not harder,however is very unforgiving.

So is any other rotation for any other classes. If you mess up on other classes, your DPS will go down and your OCD sense starts telling you that you are gonna hit rock bottom the same. DKs for example has all DoT skills basically and is very unforgiving as well. Same can be said for Templar rotations. There are BiS rotations and they are all unforgiving for all classes. NB's rotations are not any more unforgiving than the others. If anything, other classes have it worse as their own unforgiving rotation still nets them lower DPS and if they mess up, their DPS will slide down even further than a NB's DPS as they started lower than NB to begin with. To achieve similar level, other classes have to be completely flawless .

LadyNalcarya

Qbiken wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

How would you change it?

@Tasear
I wouldn't change nightblades, they reward skill which is exactly how it should be. They also specialise in DPS roles.

I think classes are fairly balanced in the big picture, just not in terms of DPS.

• Solo play - Sorc
• DPS - Nightblade
• Tank - DK
• Healer - Templar
• Decent at all - Warden

If anything all classes could do with slight tweaks in terms of roles they don't specialise in, as well as some sustain added into the mix. Can't really give any specifics without prior thought as it would have to stay balanced in PvP terms as well.

NB - Synergies... where they at?
Sorc - Pets are clunky, sustaining is a minigame, no class spammable.
Templar - Execute is a DPS loss (will have to test after the patch), 'spammable' is clunky (why 1.1s...).
DK - no spammable for stam, no execute, melee range.
Warden - don't personally play one, but not heard anything good about them dps terms.

Also making content which requires both stam and mag dps would be nice to see, the initial trials (AA/MoL) catered to both and are the most enjoyable imo.

Playing a nightblade isn´t exactly more skillful than playing any other class. Sorry but the "difficult rotation" argument doesn´t work anymore, and even if they still would´ve had a difficult rotation (keep in mind that we players create the rotations, not ZOS) it´s still a pretty bad reason to justify why one class should be so far ahead of other classes as they are.

This!
And for example if you try to play mag warden, the rotation is also not the easiest, but the damage is much lower. So I dont think ZOS intentionally rewards "skillful" players, its just a lack of balance.

MehrunesFlagon

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

NB rotation is not any harder than any other proper rotation. Unsure why NBs like to view themselves as special people when EVERYONE has to do weaving and anim cancel perfectly for perfect rotation with weaves. And no. Will proc doesn't add more difficulty because you weave anyways.

Magblade rotation is not harder,however is very unforgiving.

So is any other rotation for any other classes. If you mess up on other classes, your DPS will go down and your OCD sense starts telling you that you are gonna hit rock bottom the same. DKs for example has all DoT skills basically and is very unforgiving as well. Same can be said for Templar rotations. There are BiS rotations and they are all unforgiving for all classes. NB's rotations are not any more unforgiving than the others. If anything, other classes have it worse as their own unforgiving rotation still nets them lower DPS and if they mess up, their DPS will slide down even further than a NB's DPS as they started lower than NB to begin with. To achieve similar level, other classes have to be completely flawless .

Since I do play more than nb I do disagree in a way.Yes messing up a rotation on any class results in dps loss,but in my experience I find magblade to be the most unforgiving.

NyassaV

RedVyperOfDorne wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

At first I thought this thread was a joke, and then I realized you were talking about PvE. Yeah, you're right lol.

I'm actually all for Nightblades being top in DPS because they need to be in order to justify the difficulty of their rotation. The self healing of magblades is pretty over the top though. Yeah their damage needs to be higher, but they kind of have it too good.

Their rotation is not more difficult, it's simply their rotation guides players towards more dynamic game-play. ANY class can and should be played dynamically to maximize DPS. However a mage-blade can be driven under a static rotation and still pull higher DPS than other classes. This all comes down to experience.

Define difficult. On other classes I don't have to think most the time but on magblade I have to think just a little. This is of course after about a year of practice.

How about we just say complex rather than more difficult because I used to agree but after enough practice nothing is difficult

Malamar1229

Consider the reps

usmcjdking

seriously this "muh rotation" nonsense is laughable.

Backlash requires about the same amount of attention for a reasonably strong uptime. The classes don't even need to be numerically equal when it comes to DPS - they need to be equally desired. This is what ZOS fails to understand.

Too busy making numerical changes about the ceiling and what not and not focused on making other stuff desireable to have in a group.

Galarthor

Joy_Division wrote: »

We talked about this. ZOS is aware.

And indirectly buffs NBs in the next update by making Rune Cage and Sloads dodgeable.

Not sure they are hearing you guys

Feanor

That they are ahead on a target dummy is probably the reason it’s 7 NBs minimum and raid leads reportedly ask for class re-rolls. Mhhhhm.

DuskMarine

Feanor wrote: »

That they are ahead on a target dummy is probably the reason it’s 7 NBs minimum and raid leads reportedly ask for class re-rolls. Mhhhhm.

ive never seen anyone go 7 nb ive seen alot more mag sorcs even now still. wards just to dang good.

IZZEFlameLash

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

NB rotation is not any harder than any other proper rotation. Unsure why NBs like to view themselves as special people when EVERYONE has to do weaving and anim cancel perfectly for perfect rotation with weaves. And no. Will proc doesn't add more difficulty because you weave anyways.

Magblade rotation is not harder,however is very unforgiving.

So is any other rotation for any other classes. If you mess up on other classes, your DPS will go down and your OCD sense starts telling you that you are gonna hit rock bottom the same. DKs for example has all DoT skills basically and is very unforgiving as well. Same can be said for Templar rotations. There are BiS rotations and they are all unforgiving for all classes. NB's rotations are not any more unforgiving than the others. If anything, other classes have it worse as their own unforgiving rotation still nets them lower DPS and if they mess up, their DPS will slide down even further than a NB's DPS as they started lower than NB to begin with. To achieve similar level, other classes have to be completely flawless .

Since I do play more than nb I do disagree in a way.Yes messing up a rotation on any class results in dps loss,but in my experience I find magblade to be the most unforgiving.

It is not the most unforgiving and I have ran trials with mNB. Rotations in all classes are unforgiving as messing one up will cause DPS drops. Don't other classes also have DoTs to refresh, buffs to refresh on time? Pretty sure all classes have to do refresh of DoTs and buffs all timed properly even with sustain issues or super fun and interactive (/sarcasm) full on heavy attacks taking down DPS (2 seconds of that weird staff windup anim ugh).

thankyourat

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

NB rotation is not any harder than any other proper rotation. Unsure why NBs like to view themselves as special people when EVERYONE has to do weaving and anim cancel perfectly for perfect rotation with weaves. And no. Will proc doesn't add more difficulty because you weave anyways.

Magblade rotation is not harder,however is very unforgiving.

So is any other rotation for any other classes. If you mess up on other classes, your DPS will go down and your OCD sense starts telling you that you are gonna hit rock bottom the same. DKs for example has all DoT skills basically and is very unforgiving as well. Same can be said for Templar rotations. There are BiS rotations and they are all unforgiving for all classes. NB's rotations are not any more unforgiving than the others. If anything, other classes have it worse as their own unforgiving rotation still nets them lower DPS and if they mess up, their DPS will slide down even further than a NB's DPS as they started lower than NB to begin with. To achieve similar level, other classes have to be completely flawless .

Since I do play more than nb I do disagree in a way.Yes messing up a rotation on any class results in dps loss,but in my experience I find magblade to be the most unforgiving.

It is not the most unforgiving and I have ran trials with mNB. Rotations in all classes are unforgiving as messing one up will cause DPS drops. Don't other classes also have DoTs to refresh, buffs to refresh on time? Pretty sure all classes have to do refresh of DoTs and buffs all timed properly even with sustain issues or super fun and interactive (/sarcasm) full on heavy attacks taking down DPS (2 seconds of that weird staff windup anim ugh).

In a way I agree. what I notice about magblade over say a mag sorc is that if you mess up your rotation on a magblade your DPS drops drastically where as a mag sorc your DPS drops marginally. If you are playing well on magblade you are going to do more DPS.

The magblade rotation is a little more complex but I wouldn't say it's difficult. And with enough practice I would actually say magblade rotation can become easy but it's going to take a lot more practice than other classes. The only choices really are dumb down the magblade rotation to match the mag sorc rotation and also make the DPS match, allow magblade to continue to do more DPS than mag sorc, Or make the magsorc DPS rotation more complex and make the damage match magblade DPS. I actually think I like magblade doing more damage than mag sorc and rewarding the practice you have to put in to be better at magblade. While making mag sorc better for average and newer players. (Just my opinion)

You can't really allow templar and dk to out DPS magblade because they are best in slot in the tank and support role. So allowing them to be even in DPS would be completely unbalanced. And would mean you could just run all Templars and complete the content. You also can't let classes be even in all roles because that would be way to unbalanced in PvP because no class would have a inherent weakness. The fact that all classes have a role they are best in means you have to learn to play and create multiple classes which I also think is good for the game.

John_Falstaff

thankyourat wrote: »

You can't really allow templar and dk to out DPS magblade because they are best in slot in the tank and support role. So allowing them to be even in DPS would be completely unbalanced. And would mean you could just run all Templars and complete the content. You also can't let classes be even in all roles because that would be way to unbalanced in PvP because no class would have a inherent weakness. The fact that all classes have a role they are best in means you have to learn to play and create multiple classes which I also think is good for the game.

It's getting really ridiculous. ^^ Who gets to decide which class we'll pigeonhole into being tanks and nothing but tanks? You? I have a counter-proposition - let's nerf NB damage into oblivion but make them great tanks, and give damage to someone else. Why not? I mean, we, like, can't let be classes be even in all roles, so let NBs be only tanks with no damage, that proposal is no worse than any other.

So, no. I understand that some enjoy the status quo, but that doesn't work like that; the doctrine is for classes to be equal, and it's too late to backpedal on that. Instead, give identity to every class; let classes excel at everything, just in their own unique way, and let players' skill be the limit, not the choice of class/race/whatever. Don't punish people for liking nords or not liking the idea of shooting fireballs from a wooden stick to be successful at the role they enjoy. Classes don't have a designated role, aside from roles the meta and failure to balance the game have assigned them.

Juhasow

Joy_Division wrote: »

We talked about this. ZOS is aware.

Beware , ZOS is aware.

Nightblades buffs are coming

thankyourat

John_Falstaff wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

You can't really allow templar and dk to out DPS magblade because they are best in slot in the tank and support role. So allowing them to be even in DPS would be completely unbalanced. And would mean you could just run all Templars and complete the content. You also can't let classes be even in all roles because that would be way to unbalanced in PvP because no class would have a inherent weakness. The fact that all classes have a role they are best in means you have to learn to play and create multiple classes which I also think is good for the game.

It's getting really ridiculous. ^^ Who gets to decide which class we'll pigeonhole into being tanks and nothing but tanks? You? I have a counter-proposition - let's nerf NB damage into oblivion but make them great tanks, and give damage to someone else. Why not? I mean, we, like, can't let be classes be even in all roles, so let NBs be only tanks with no damage, that proposal is no worse than any other.

So, no. I understand that some enjoy the status quo, but that doesn't work like that; the doctrine is for classes to be equal, and it's too late to backpedal on that. Instead, give identity to every class; let classes excel at everything, just in their own unique way, and let players' skill be the limit, not the choice of class/race/whatever. Don't punish people for liking nords or not liking the idea of shooting fireballs from a wooden stick to be successful at the role they enjoy. Classes don't have a designated role, aside from roles the meta and failure to balance the game have assigned them.

Players can't excel at everything because this game has PvP as well it's not just PvE. In it would be incredibly toxic if a class has a burst heal like a templar, tanky as a DK with the burst damage and mobility of a sorc. You wouldn't be able to kill anyone. Also the classes aren't pigeon-holed you can very well be a templar DPS or a DK DPS and still complete all the content in the game and pretty easily at that. They just won't have the DPS of a nightblade. That only comes into play when you are trying for scoreboard.

There is nothing wrong with making nightblade the tank role it's a viable role and just as important as anything else. I don't really care which classes are which roles but classes have to perform better in certain roles to keep the game balanced. I for one think a bigger problem is the game content is set up for Magicka DPS classes to perform better than stamina, but I'm very against making classes that can do everything because of PvP

JobooAGS

Galarthor wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

We talked about this. ZOS is aware.

And indirectly buffs NBs in the next update by making Rune Cage and Sloads dodgeable.

Not sure they are hearing you guys

Didnt know that the only players with/do dodge are nightblades...

John_Falstaff

@thankyourat , is that's supposed to be a justification for lack of balance? "Game has PvP, therefore everything is difficult and we must live with things how they are now," is that how the ultimate verdict must sound? That's a good justification for resting on the laurels.

You feel you can be DK DPS and complete all the content in the game, pretty easily? I dare you. Make DK DPS and easily complete vet Cloudrest or Asylum. Please. With the caveat that you should contribute equally instead of being carried. Then share the experience. (In fact, you're contradicting yourself; next paragraph, you explicitly state that game content is set up for magicka DPS - but according to you DK DPS can easily complete all the content. So which would it be?)

I'm not sure how can I continue, because the argument "I'm against classes being equal in DPS because it will break PvP" shatters the very sense of reality. Well that's the point of balancing is, finding the ways of making things better instead of breaking them. Adjust thing separately using battle spirit if needed. If your only idea of balance is the balance in PvP and you don't care how classes perform in PvE, then you're effectively saying "I'd rather leave things as is, with PvP okay-ish and PvE broken, because changes may break PvP and I care only about PvP". Well, good for you.

Splattercat_83

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Splattercat_83 , no, that doesn't work like that.

bardx86 wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

At first I thought this thread was a joke, and then I realized you were talking about PvE. Yeah, you're right lol.

I'm actually all for Nightblades being top in DPS because they need to be in order to justify the difficulty of their rotation. The self healing of magblades is pretty over the top though. Yeah their damage needs to be higher, but they kind of have it too good.

That has to be one of the worst arguments I've ever heard. So because other classes don't have access to a difficult hard rotation NB's should just be gifted the highest DPS? GTFO

No that's not what we are saying. To get that top end DPS on a magblade you have to do the dynamic rotation. On PC its eaiser to do that due to trackers and such. On console we have to piece part of a dynamic rotation together and hope for the best. For the majority of players on console if you nerf the class then the people that cant pull off the dynamic rotation are going to suffer even harder for it. I have finally gotten to play my nightblade in some serious content since the game launched. If you have to track three dots which all have different timers (Cripple has a travel time depending on range of the target) how many light attacks you pull off for a proc, two buffs that you have to track independently and are still able to do mechanics, then yes you should be rewarded with top level dps.

Splattercat_83

RedVyperOfDorne wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

They should not touch MAGNB At all. That class is really fun to play and good DPS balance to game contents

THEY NEED TO bring other classes to MAGNB's LEVEL...

Lol, they can't buff every class to 55k+ solo 6m dummy humps with major expedition, spammable self heals and consistent minor berserk / infinite sustain. The game would literally be dumb. Everything needs to be scaled back on a nightblade to bring them back in line with others, as the other classes are a lot closer to each other, whilst nightblade sits out in front.

Make you a magblade and see how well you do hitting 55k solo on a 6m dummy. It not as easy as you think it is.

Tremors

Lol if I can hit 49k on a magplar solo, I can hit 55k on a shiteblade. Heck give me berserk and that magplar is 55k.

John_Falstaff

@Splattercat_83 , I have to track eight dots and one buff, most with different duration, so I don't think that argument "yes, but we have hard life" applies. Unlike magblades, I can't even afford to waste one slot on each bar slotting skill just for a passive, of all mine only Vigor isn't present in rotation. So, no, not an argument for being special in any regard. Magicka wardens, too, have rotation that can tie their fingers into a knot; why they're not rewarded with high DPS is a mystery to me.

In fact, the logical conclusion from what you wrote is: if the class is so hard to play without crutches (in form of addons) that on console results are lackluster, the proper decision would be to remove Grim Focus proc altogether, not to create a gap between PC playstyle and console. But I'm not a fan of nerfs, it would make class poorer; I say that, if nightblades feel entitled for having a skill with with complex mechanics (which they may decide not to use, or may decide to use for better results), then - all right, let's give other classes the means to actually scale with user skill. Give them skills with more complex (and more rewarding) mechanics, why limit them with dumber play and put potentially great players at disadvantage simply because they're playing class that doesn't let them play harder and better.

But again, if you'll read my post you're replying to, you'll find that it says absolutely nothing about damage imbalance. It talks about content favoring certain classes and playstyles. I don't know why you've decided to turn conversation towards what one can pull on a dummy, because it's irrelevant to what I'm saying. I may be able to pull more on my class than average player will pull on magblade, but he'll still be more relevant than I am in new content. That's where problem is.