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Nothing addressing the “Nightblade Meta” we’re currently saddled with

  • yurimodin
    yurimodin
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    well I took a stamblade all the way up to cp160.......its SUCKED for DPS(maybe it was just me and my playstyle). Anyway I recently respec-ed as a magica healer. I do more DPS animation cancelling light attack to funnel health than I ever got when I was stam DPS doing uppercut even from stealth with all my passives.

    Personally I find the skill-lines to be fairly challenging since most of it revolves around debuffs & DOT's.....I have yet to experience this meta OP burst damage everyone talks about.

    Granted I never really do any PVP so its purely from a PvE perspective.

    I originally chose a nightblade because I liked the idea of rouge assassin and archer etc.....then everyone started playing NB.
  • SmellyUnlimited
    SmellyUnlimited
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    I didn’t mean for my post to be construed as me wanting a NB nerf, but rather a performance buff for the underutilized and underpowered classes. To those that mentioned content, you’re absolutely right. VHoF and VAS have all but paved the way in gold for Magblades to succeed. Even DLC dungeons now favor the class, as speed runs/no deaths are very much in a Magblades wheelhouse, much moreso than other classes.

    The new trials are so AoE heavy, that without the ability to actively shield and self-heal, you’re doomed. Yes, I’ve gone througH the end game trials as a Stamblade, but that is becoming more and more rare. Part of it is the classes themselves, but another big part is end-game guilds. Nobody likes butting their head against a trial for hours on end, but with a compliment of Magblades you have the highest damage class with the most survivability. It’s a wonder why everyone doesn’t play one.

    Whenever I think of MMO’s, I think of the one I had the most fun with and found the most engaging: Everquest. Not every class could Tank well, but there was a wide variety that could. There wasn’t the large strata of dps ranges; any class could achieve roughly the same dps, but the classes themselves offered different utility strengths to better the whole. Only wizards and druids could teleport; otherwise, if you wanted to get somewhere, be ready to run through a lot of difficult areas to do so. Which was a big part of the fun. Tired of ppl dying constantly in trials? Well, death came at a price. You lost experience, which in that game made eso’s early vet leveling seem like Skyreach. Not to mention, after dying you’d respawn at whatever point you bound at, but you’d have to retrieve your body to get your gear. So Mages could summon bodies, and Clerics and a few other classes were the only ones that could rez ppl (which lessened the hit from losing exp).

    My point is that all the classes had a purpose, a role, that was unique and it differentied them from the others. Groups sought out that diversity, because you could accomplish much more having all those tools at your disposal. I’m not saying make ESO into Everquest, but remove the homogeneousness, and you’ll remove the hegemony.
    DO. NOT. WIPE. (in game OR out!)
  • IZZEFlameLash
    IZZEFlameLash
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    yurimodin wrote: »
    well I took a stamblade all the way up to cp160.......its SUCKED for DPS(maybe it was just me and my playstyle). Anyway I recently respec-ed as a magica healer. I do more DPS animation cancelling light attack to funnel health than I ever got when I was stam DPS doing uppercut even from stealth with all my passives.

    Personally I find the skill-lines to be fairly challenging since most of it revolves around debuffs & DOT's.....I have yet to experience this meta OP burst damage everyone talks about.

    Granted I never really do any PVP so its purely from a PvE perspective.

    I originally chose a nightblade because I liked the idea of rouge assassin and archer etc.....then everyone started playing NB.

    That is because you have no idea how to play NB. NB DPS both stam and magicka are the best DPS in the game atm. If you think NB toolkit is lacking, l2p. Most older NBs who still have no idea about their class say that their class toolkit lacks. L2p or be one of those who played NB for 3 years and still have no idea about the class's strengths. And if you want to feel unique, why not play a Magden? NB always have been numerous ever since the age of dynamic ultgen faded.
    Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel
  • SmellyUnlimited
    SmellyUnlimited
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    And for god sakes, give Stam dps an ounce of survivability in medium armor. Swap sneak speed for dodge chance (doesn’t have to be very high, just some survivability). Trying to fit Shuffle in as near impossible, not to mention its prohibitive stam cost. Blade cloak already got nerfed, so the impetus to use it went away. Personally I still use it, since 25% AoE mitigation is too good to pass up, but it was never overperforming; simply gave Stamina one viable way to mitigate damage.
    DO. NOT. WIPE. (in game OR out!)
  • Strider__Roshin
    Strider__Roshin
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    NBs need a tiny bit of rebalancing. Nothing dramatic.


    Something which immediately come to mind are moving the ult generation passive away from Siphoning. No other class gets ult gen from it spammable. Moving it to Assassination would be the best method IMO. You could still get max return on ult gen due to Grim Resolve.

    That's actually a great idea.
  • Dredlord
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    Its the sad, sad *** truth.

    After 4+ years playing templar, I switched to NB lately.

    I would much rather play my templar and hardly login to pvp because of the *** show the devs have created.

    The latest templar buffs?

    Solar barrage, still not worth a slot next to all the other underperforming clunky skills.

    Radiant, ......ah *** it, just a waste of *** time responding to balance changes.

  • DuskMarine
    DuskMarine
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    Competitive end game guilds are more and more looking to Magblades to fill out the majority of DPS in a trial. Outside of VAS, stam can come in, but usually at most 3,and Stamblades at that.

    So you look through a group comp, and you’ll likely see 8 NB’s, 2DK (tanks). 2 Templar (healers). No class changes or rebalancing has affected this yet, nor appears to be. Sometimes they’ll allow one MagSorc in the group for providing the Asylum weapon procs, but that’s the one anomaly.

    I’d like to see this next meta be representative of the community, not simply of a class, where people felt compelled then to all make Magblades just to participate in end game content.

    nightblade meta?? you mean we left the sorc meta thats owned the game forever? its always been meta sorcs cause sorcs are the most overpowered easy class to run.
  • SmellyUnlimited
    SmellyUnlimited
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    DuskMarine wrote: »
    Competitive end game guilds are more and more looking to Magblades to fill out the majority of DPS in a trial. Outside of VAS, stam can come in, but usually at most 3,and Stamblades at that.

    So you look through a group comp, and you’ll likely see 8 NB’s, 2DK (tanks). 2 Templar (healers). No class changes or rebalancing has affected this yet, nor appears to be. Sometimes they’ll allow one MagSorc in the group for providing the Asylum weapon procs, but that’s the one anomaly.

    I’d like to see this next meta be representative of the community, not simply of a class, where people felt compelled then to all make Magblades just to participate in end game content.

    nightblade meta?? you mean we left the sorc meta thats owned the game forever? its always been meta sorcs cause sorcs are the most overpowered easy class to run.

    Probably a mixture of those two classes. I seem to see a lot more Magblades this DLC though. Probably because the Psijic line gave them a more powerful spammable, and having such a strong range execute for the newer trials is extremely potent.
    DO. NOT. WIPE. (in game OR out!)
  • kaithuzar
    kaithuzar
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    @kaithuzar , so, just to be clear, when "a lot" of people crying for support class, then their wishes must be satisfied, and that's okay by you. So, right now a lot of people are crying to nerf nightblades - should we satisfy them now, too? (In short: no, we shouldn't.) So point in case - a bunch of people crying on forums for support class isn't a reason of taking an existing one and make it only fit for support, ninja style. For all I know, people cry for nightblades to be made viable tanks; how'd you feel if nightblades could -only- tank well, and be mediocre at everything else? So there.
    Pijng wrote: »
    It doesn't mean that dks are tanks only. You still can setup one as a dd or...heal. If they are not as viable as other classes in these roles – well, it still counts. Renaming "Dragonknight" to "PvE Tank" will lead to confusion.
    More than that, not all the players are doing vTrials or vMA.

    But let's be honest, how many patches we see majority of dds in vTrials as a mag ones? And DKs – they always were the best tanks for like any content in this game. Is this a problem? I guess. I don't really care, if I want to go to vTrial with my stamblade – you know, I'll do it.

    Point in case - no, it doesn't count. If class isn't viable in some role, if it's locked out of a chunk of content (content people paid for, and keep paying for), without any sort of notice - why, then people have been fooled. You're the one voting for classes not to be equal - so we'd better reflect inequality in text, during character creation. Otherwise, there -is- a confusion. And no, it's not an excuse that not everyone wants to do vtrials or vMA. It's the capability that matters - when people create a character, they don't know in advance what content they want to try, and since ZOS' states "play as you like", well, they'd better be given equal opportunities. You may not care, others do; you may not see a problem, others see it.

    And yes, just to see a problem, make a stam DK, and try to get on a score run in vCR or vHoF.

    Dude talking to you is flat out annoying. Obviously, as a single player, I have the smallest amount of possible say, if any at all.
    It’s Zenimax who decides these things, I’m not saying “wishes should or shouldn’t be satisfied”, so accusing me of taking a stance on that is just wrong. I was giving my perspective of the way things are & trying to say to “accept things for what they are”.
    I thought shortly after launch ZOS apologized or something about the “play as you want” statement, because that was blatantly not “how things were” even if it was meant to be that way.
    It’s close in my opinion today. But we’re still not there yet but people like you are holding them to this statement from over 4 years ago knowing full well it will likely never happen.

    But it depends on your stance, if I was ZOS & a large % of my customer base was wanting something, yes, I would consider giving it to them.
    It’s not about balance, it’s not about you, or me.
    It’s about money.
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  • hakan
    hakan
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    yurimodin wrote: »
    well I took a stamblade all the way up to cp160.......its SUCKED for DPS(maybe it was just me and my playstyle). Anyway I recently respec-ed as a magica healer. I do more DPS animation cancelling light attack to funnel health than I ever got when I was stam DPS doing uppercut even from stealth with all my passives.

    Personally I find the skill-lines to be fairly challenging since most of it revolves around debuffs & DOT's.....I have yet to experience this meta OP burst damage everyone talks about.

    Granted I never really do any PVP so its purely from a PvE perspective.

    I originally chose a nightblade because I liked the idea of rouge assassin and archer etc.....then everyone started playing NB.

    No offense but dps via stealth uppercutting sounds terrible xD
    Daus wrote: »
    usmcjdking wrote: »
    NBs need a tiny bit of rebalancing. Nothing dramatic.


    Something which immediately come to mind are moving the ult generation passive away from Siphoning. No other class gets ult gen from it spammable. Moving it to Assassination would be the best method IMO. You could still get max return on ult gen due to Grim Resolve.

    That's actually a great idea.

    You guys talk about soul transfer? 2 ultimate for 4 seconds?

    Edited by hakan on July 26, 2018 1:00PM
  • Dymence
    Dymence
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    DuskMarine wrote: »
    Competitive end game guilds are more and more looking to Magblades to fill out the majority of DPS in a trial. Outside of VAS, stam can come in, but usually at most 3,and Stamblades at that.

    So you look through a group comp, and you’ll likely see 8 NB’s, 2DK (tanks). 2 Templar (healers). No class changes or rebalancing has affected this yet, nor appears to be. Sometimes they’ll allow one MagSorc in the group for providing the Asylum weapon procs, but that’s the one anomaly.

    I’d like to see this next meta be representative of the community, not simply of a class, where people felt compelled then to all make Magblades just to participate in end game content.

    nightblade meta?? you mean we left the sorc meta thats owned the game forever? its always been meta sorcs cause sorcs are the most overpowered easy class to run.

    Sorcs haven't been meta since homestead. How long is that? Year and a half?
  • CultOfMMO
    CultOfMMO
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    Daus wrote: »
    At first I thought this thread was a joke, and then I realized you were talking about PvE. Yeah, you're right lol.

    I'm actually all for Nightblades being top in DPS because they need to be in order to justify the difficulty of their rotation. The self healing of magblades is pretty over the top though. Yeah their damage needs to be higher, but they kind of have it too good.

    Their rotation is not more difficult, it's simply their rotation guides players towards more dynamic game-play. ANY class can and should be played dynamically to maximize DPS. However a mage-blade can be driven under a static rotation and still pull higher DPS than other classes. This all comes down to experience.

    i highly doubt a STRICTLY static magblade rotation will break 46k solo 6mil and my magsorc is parsing 47k solo on live accounting for minor berserk so your statement is questionable. I've reached 49k solo 6mil on my magblade but i can say that took A LOT of work. i was stuck at 45 46k ish for the longest time and almost decided to just stick with magsorc.

    this magblade meta is different from the magsorc meta back in homestead because magsorcs (specifically the OP pets back then) are brain dead bandwagon-friendly setups that anyone can pick up and have good results. In contrast outside of elite guild folks my magsorc is outparsing every single magblade i've enocuntered, sometimes by a large margin.

    i'll be honest it amuses me to no end whenever i see ppl worship magblades when they cant even come close to my magsorc. That's why imo magblade's "dominance" is justified because the rotation is significantly harder and its just not for everyone. Theres really only a tiny percentage of ESO population that can fully utilize the complex kit of a magblade.
    vHoF HM 202k Tick-Tock Tormentor (Stamblade)
    vAS HM 111k Immortal Redeemer (Magplar)
    vCR HM 129k Gryphon Heart (Magblade/plar)
    vSS HM 245k NA 2nd Godslayer (Stamcro)
    Magblade vMA 601k
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    Dymence wrote: »
    DuskMarine wrote: »
    Competitive end game guilds are more and more looking to Magblades to fill out the majority of DPS in a trial. Outside of VAS, stam can come in, but usually at most 3,and Stamblades at that.

    So you look through a group comp, and you’ll likely see 8 NB’s, 2DK (tanks). 2 Templar (healers). No class changes or rebalancing has affected this yet, nor appears to be. Sometimes they’ll allow one MagSorc in the group for providing the Asylum weapon procs, but that’s the one anomaly.

    I’d like to see this next meta be representative of the community, not simply of a class, where people felt compelled then to all make Magblades just to participate in end game content.

    nightblade meta?? you mean we left the sorc meta thats owned the game forever? its always been meta sorcs cause sorcs are the most overpowered easy class to run.

    Sorcs haven't been meta since homestead. How long is that? Year and a half?

    Homestead was February 2017, yes.
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
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    All chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • Apherius
    Apherius
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    CultOfMMO wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    At first I thought this thread was a joke, and then I realized you were talking about PvE. Yeah, you're right lol.

    I'm actually all for Nightblades being top in DPS because they need to be in order to justify the difficulty of their rotation. The self healing of magblades is pretty over the top though. Yeah their damage needs to be higher, but they kind of have it too good.

    Their rotation is not more difficult, it's simply their rotation guides players towards more dynamic game-play. ANY class can and should be played dynamically to maximize DPS. However a mage-blade can be driven under a static rotation and still pull higher DPS than other classes. This all comes down to experience.

    i highly doubt a STRICTLY static magblade rotation will break 46k solo 6mil and my magsorc is parsing 47k solo on live accounting for minor berserk so your statement is questionable. I've reached 49k solo 6mil on my magblade but i can say that took A LOT of work. i was stuck at 45 46k ish for the longest time and almost decided to just stick with magsorc.

    this magblade meta is different from the magsorc meta back in homestead because magsorcs (specifically the OP pets back then) are brain dead bandwagon-friendly setups that anyone can pick up and have good results. In contrast outside of elite guild folks my magsorc is outparsing every single magblade i've enocuntered, sometimes by a large margin.

    i'll be honest it amuses me to no end whenever i see ppl worship magblades when they cant even come close to my magsorc. That's why imo magblade's "dominance" is justified because the rotation is significantly harder and its just not for everyone. Theres really only a tiny percentage of ESO population that can fully utilize the complex kit of a magblade.

    stuck at 39K dps on my mag sorc, it's my main and i play this char since beta.

    recently i made a MagNB, I miss some passives abilities, Accelerate isn't morphed, and i have no idea how to play this class, my dot uptimes were garbage, 45K first try on dummy then 45.5K, + the sustain is awesome ( no need to spam HA constantly unlike sorc, cause ...siphoning attacks).
    Edited by Apherius on July 26, 2018 3:12PM
  • Pijng
    Pijng
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    And for god sakes, give Stam dps an ounce of survivability in medium armor. Swap sneak speed for dodge chance (doesn’t have to be very high, just some survivability). Trying to fit Shuffle in as near impossible, not to mention its prohibitive stam cost. Blade cloak already got nerfed, so the impetus to use it went away. Personally I still use it, since 25% AoE mitigation is too good to pass up, but it was never overperforming; simply gave Stamina one viable way to mitigate damage.

    Why would you need shuffle in PvE? Are you tanking bosses with your stam dd?
    Edited by Pijng on July 26, 2018 3:15PM
  • Shinshadow
    Shinshadow
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    How about this, we just "kill the meta", by us no longer talking about what is "best in slot, best race, best skills" If people just played how they wanted to, and stopped bandwagon jumping, things might be a lot more fun / less toxic for everyone :-)
  • Dymence
    Dymence
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    Shinshadow wrote: »
    How about this, we just "kill the meta", by us no longer talking about what is "best in slot, best race, best skills" If people just played how they wanted to, and stopped bandwagon jumping, things might be a lot more fun / less toxic for everyone :-)

    Everyone has different concepts of fun
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    @Shinshadow - the problem is, in this particular case, it's not just about toxic meta-minded people. The problem is very real, it's not just in people's heads. A lot of classes and builds (as a terminal case, all melee stamina) is having trouble pulling their weight in new trials (dungeons too; and wait for March of Sacrifices where you're punished for not having shields and good self-healing). SmellyUnlimited is right, nobody would enjoy struggling for hours in new content while they could just grab a team of magblades and/or magsorcs and breeze through it.
  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
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    Dymence wrote: »
    DuskMarine wrote: »
    Competitive end game guilds are more and more looking to Magblades to fill out the majority of DPS in a trial. Outside of VAS, stam can come in, but usually at most 3,and Stamblades at that.

    So you look through a group comp, and you’ll likely see 8 NB’s, 2DK (tanks). 2 Templar (healers). No class changes or rebalancing has affected this yet, nor appears to be. Sometimes they’ll allow one MagSorc in the group for providing the Asylum weapon procs, but that’s the one anomaly.

    I’d like to see this next meta be representative of the community, not simply of a class, where people felt compelled then to all make Magblades just to participate in end game content.

    nightblade meta?? you mean we left the sorc meta thats owned the game forever? its always been meta sorcs cause sorcs are the most overpowered easy class to run.

    Sorcs haven't been meta since homestead. How long is that? Year and a half?

    https://esoleaderboards.com/archive/8/HOF

    More sorcs on the last HoF leaderboard pull before Horns of the Reach than any other class (241 sorcs to 136 nightblades, btw). Same story in MoL: https://esoleaderboards.com/archive/8/MOL, where you've got 356 sorcs and 138 nightblades. This was before we fully transitioned into the "as many stamDKs as possible" meta, which then transitioned into the nightblade meta.

    So, certainly hasn't been a year and a half. Even on the last leaderboards saved before Clockwork City, the only class more prevalent than sorcerers was the DK (which of course is always a bit skewed because most groups have 2 DK tanks).
  • kaithuzar
    kaithuzar
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    Apherius wrote: »
    CultOfMMO wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    At first I thought this thread was a joke, and then I realized you were talking about PvE. Yeah, you're right lol.

    I'm actually all for Nightblades being top in DPS because they need to be in order to justify the difficulty of their rotation. The self healing of magblades is pretty over the top though. Yeah their damage needs to be higher, but they kind of have it too good.

    Their rotation is not more difficult, it's simply their rotation guides players towards more dynamic game-play. ANY class can and should be played dynamically to maximize DPS. However a mage-blade can be driven under a static rotation and still pull higher DPS than other classes. This all comes down to experience.

    i highly doubt a STRICTLY static magblade rotation will break 46k solo 6mil and my magsorc is parsing 47k solo on live accounting for minor berserk so your statement is questionable. I've reached 49k solo 6mil on my magblade but i can say that took A LOT of work. i was stuck at 45 46k ish for the longest time and almost decided to just stick with magsorc.

    this magblade meta is different from the magsorc meta back in homestead because magsorcs (specifically the OP pets back then) are brain dead bandwagon-friendly setups that anyone can pick up and have good results. In contrast outside of elite guild folks my magsorc is outparsing every single magblade i've enocuntered, sometimes by a large margin.

    i'll be honest it amuses me to no end whenever i see ppl worship magblades when they cant even come close to my magsorc. That's why imo magblade's "dominance" is justified because the rotation is significantly harder and its just not for everyone. Theres really only a tiny percentage of ESO population that can fully utilize the complex kit of a magblade.

    stuck at 39K dps on my mag sorc, it's my main and i play this char since beta.

    recently i made a MagNB, I miss some passives abilities, Accelerate isn't morphed, and i have no idea how to play this class, my dot uptimes were garbage, 45K first try on dummy then 45.5K, + the sustain is awesome ( no need to spam HA constantly unlike sorc, cause ...siphoning attacks).

    I wonder if that could be playstyle?
    It’s probably difficult to get poll accuracies with trolls but you can try it.

    People always told me my playstyle is like a magdk even though I only play magblade since beta.
    Maybe you’re just a nightblade at heart & for you, it just comes natural. But I wonder if 100 or so other players who’ve tried that would say the same?
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  • MLGProPlayer
    MLGProPlayer
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    ccfeeling wrote: »
    I have NB , DK and Sorc DPS , but I rare to play NB now , it's more difficult to me .
    I like to play StamDK , easy rotation and high sustain , I like to play Pet Sorc for dungeon achievement , easy rotation , powerful and high survivability .

    What I wanna say is no pain and no gain .

    This is wrong that you request to nerf a class which requires to play hard .

    Warden rotation is just as hard as NB rotation to pull off, yet they have the lowest DPS in the game. Rotation difficulty should have nothing to do with DPS.
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on July 26, 2018 8:48PM
  • SmellyUnlimited
    SmellyUnlimited
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    ccfeeling wrote: »
    I have NB , DK and Sorc DPS , but I rare to play NB now , it's more difficult to me .
    I like to play StamDK , easy rotation and high sustain , I like to play Pet Sorc for dungeon achievement , easy rotation , powerful and high survivability .

    What I wanna say is no pain and no gain .

    This is wrong that you request to nerf a class which requires to play hard .

    Warden rotation is just as hard as NB rotation to pull off, yet they have the lowest DPS in the game. Rotation difficulty should have nothing to do with DPS.

    I’m still not sure where this “difficult”magblade rotation came from. Is it because Twisting Path is so clunky to use? Bow procs? That last one largely got fixed a few patches ago.
    DO. NOT. WIPE. (in game OR out!)
  • SmellyUnlimited
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    @Shinshadow - the problem is, in this particular case, it's not just about toxic meta-minded people. The problem is very real, it's not just in people's heads. A lot of classes and builds (as a terminal case, all melee stamina) is having trouble pulling their weight in new trials (dungeons too; and wait for March of Sacrifices where you're punished for not having shields and good self-healing). SmellyUnlimited is right, nobody would enjoy struggling for hours in new content while they could just grab a team of magblades and/or magsorcs and breeze through it.

    ^^

    Stam had relevancy back when they could achieve higher single target numbers than Mag. The trade off of course being the lack of shields, lack of synergies, and the close proximity to bosses. It was high-risk high-reward. Now that single target gap has closed considerably, so more often than not, high end score runs have a full compliment of Mag to cover their DPS numbers. Can you imagine running a trial with nothing but stam DD’s for damage? It sounds silly. Each has their unique strengths, or at least did, but those unique characteristics are just watered down or gone completely. Mag now has most survivability, most AoE, as high if not higher single target, and offer a variety of synergies to keep group resources topped off.
    DO. NOT. WIPE. (in game OR out!)
  • ResTandRespeC
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    yurimodin wrote: »
    well I took a stamblade all the way up to cp160.......its SUCKED for DPS(maybe it was just me and my playstyle). Anyway I recently respec-ed as a magica healer. I do more DPS animation cancelling light attack to funnel health than I ever got when I was stam DPS doing uppercut even from stealth with all my passives.

    Personally I find the skill-lines to be fairly challenging since most of it revolves around debuffs & DOT's.....I have yet to experience this meta OP burst damage everyone talks about.

    Granted I never really do any PVP so its purely from a PvE perspective.

    I originally chose a nightblade because I liked the idea of rouge assassin and archer etc.....then everyone started playing NB.

    Stamina NBs actually have higher damage then magic! Recent vet trial mechanics just make ot difficult to do that damage properly.
  • ResTandRespeC
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    Throw all pve stamina classes a bone and attach a means to survivability to a skill thats only used in PvE. Whether thats by giving a shield, passive healing through a dot (needs to better then bloodcraze), or some other mechanism like dodge chance, passive immunities to aoe's (ala blade cloak but without the skill slot), and better mobility (thats not attached to their main resource pool).
  • Sparr0w
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    Nightblades have the lowest floor and the highest ceiling.

    Inexperienced players will struggle to pull any dps on a magblade, inexperienced magsorcs will easily pull a lot higher.

    Nightblade sustain AND damage comes from weaving properly and execute.

    If you can't weave then you cant sustain, you don't get enough bow procs, your damage is pitiful, you wont make it to execute. On a sorc weaving is just damage, sustain isn't from weaving (they do need love on sustain, seriously) & frags procs from using skills not weaving.

    Sorcs you can optionally run 2 pets and just heavy attack, no monitoring buffs/debuffs/procs/spammables/weaving and still pull endgame dps.

    Plus sorcs have 1 buff (Trap) & 3 DoTs. Nightblades have 3 buffs (focus, siphoning, trap) and 3 DoTs.

    The answer isn't to nerf nightblades, it's to buff other classes (Sorc sustain, DK range and sustain, Warden everything etc...)
    @Sparr0w so I get the notification
    Xbox (EU) - l Sparrow x | CP 810+
    DD: All Mag + Stam
    Heal: Templar | Sorc | NB | Warden | Necro
    Tank: NB | DK | Warden
    Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GH
    PC (EU) - Sparrxw | CP 810+
    DD: All Mag + Stam
    Heal: Templar | Sorc
    Tank: DK | NB
    Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GH + GS
  • Runefang
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    Sparr0w wrote: »
    Nightblades have the lowest floor and the highest ceiling.

    Inexperienced players will struggle to pull any dps on a magblade, inexperienced magsorcs will easily pull a lot higher.

    Nightblade sustain AND damage comes from weaving properly and execute.

    If you can't weave then you cant sustain, you don't get enough bow procs, your damage is pitiful, you wont make it to execute. On a sorc weaving is just damage, sustain isn't from weaving (they do need love on sustain, seriously) & frags procs from using skills not weaving.

    Sorcs you can optionally run 2 pets and just heavy attack, no monitoring buffs/debuffs/procs/spammables/weaving and still pull endgame dps.

    Plus sorcs have 1 buff (Trap) & 3 DoTs. Nightblades have 3 buffs (focus, siphoning, trap) and 3 DoTs.

    The answer isn't to nerf nightblades, it's to buff other classes (Sorc sustain, DK range and sustain, Warden everything etc...)

    Let's not get too carried away with how hard Nightblades are. To hit the dps ceiling of any class you're tracking multiple, buffs/DoTs, you've got a dynamic rotation and you can't miss a single light attack. Add resource sustain as something you have to do on all other classes but NB, they get to just LA weave non-stop.

    At the moment even middling level dps (~35k) on a Magblade is easy compared to MagDKs, Magdens and Magplars.
  • John_Falstaff
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    I would disagree that complexity of rotation should matter any (we're talking about endgame, people going there are learning to keep track of more things than refreshing buffs and weaving LAs - which everyone should be doing, really - more so there are numerous addons for it). But I of course agree that nerfing nightblades is definitely not the answer. They don't overperform, they just happened to be one of the very few who keeps performing adequately as game content changes.
  • Dymence
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    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Dymence wrote: »
    DuskMarine wrote: »
    Competitive end game guilds are more and more looking to Magblades to fill out the majority of DPS in a trial. Outside of VAS, stam can come in, but usually at most 3,and Stamblades at that.

    So you look through a group comp, and you’ll likely see 8 NB’s, 2DK (tanks). 2 Templar (healers). No class changes or rebalancing has affected this yet, nor appears to be. Sometimes they’ll allow one MagSorc in the group for providing the Asylum weapon procs, but that’s the one anomaly.

    I’d like to see this next meta be representative of the community, not simply of a class, where people felt compelled then to all make Magblades just to participate in end game content.

    nightblade meta?? you mean we left the sorc meta thats owned the game forever? its always been meta sorcs cause sorcs are the most overpowered easy class to run.

    Sorcs haven't been meta since homestead. How long is that? Year and a half?

    https://esoleaderboards.com/archive/8/HOF

    More sorcs on the last HoF leaderboard pull before Horns of the Reach than any other class (241 sorcs to 136 nightblades, btw). Same story in MoL: https://esoleaderboards.com/archive/8/MOL, where you've got 356 sorcs and 138 nightblades. This was before we fully transitioned into the "as many stamDKs as possible" meta, which then transitioned into the nightblade meta.

    So, certainly hasn't been a year and a half. Even on the last leaderboards saved before Clockwork City, the only class more prevalent than sorcerers was the DK (which of course is always a bit skewed because most groups have 2 DK tanks).

    I never said sorcs were bad. I'm a magsorc main by heart and they're certainly able to pull their weight. That doesn't make them meta, though. They're good enough where it doesn't really matter that much if you take one or a nightblade, but a nightblade is still better. And most scores on those leaderboards aren't really that impressive, either. So it mostly comes down to people playing what they want to play. There was also a period of time after homestead where people were sceptical about other classes than sorc being the best pick, rather than testing things out.

    Lastly, every other trial than vAS and vCR still heavily favors stamina as far as I'm aware, so that plays into the equation.
    Edited by Dymence on July 27, 2018 3:49PM
  • John_Falstaff
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    Not arguing by and large, I would say that not only those two favor magicka. In HoF, third boss begs for ranged damage; in vHRC HM, it adds a lot of difficulty for the group to stack up between statues while still doing damage (running towards an add increases the risk of Warrior missing the line of statues with his randomly-aimed shield throw), and maneuvering the adds towards the stacked group isn't always possible. It ends with stamina tickling the adds with bow (and they easily run from under Endless Hail, too), while magicka has much less trouble dishing out everything they can.
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