Wings is OP. /s | A way to improve wings, whilst giving adequate counterplay. [Updated]

lucky_Sage

honestly wings arnt worth it ill do more testing when changes come to live but really doubt ill use wings long.
and for people saying w also have ult that makes us basicly immortal who using magma shell its crap, resto ult and bat swarm are both better choices and cost less. fossilize is really strong but could you image a magdk with out it would be awefull would make it so much harder to kill any fast class or templars with purge. roots suck now with the nerf if fighting any stam build and nightblade since you can cloak roots

Juhasow

In my opinion Cripple on mag nb should be that exception. With current nerf to speed buff and debuff that cripple will get plus buff to wings range magblades will be in very tough spot when dk especially magicka one will be around.

For build that is basicly based around projectiles and cant really bypass it without big sacrifices (or going into some cancer gank meta) having an enemy that can basicly not only counter but also reflect all the dmg dealt to him is slight overkill. This change wouldnt affect almost anyone and lets be honest wouldnt even hurt dragonknights that much but would help magblades a lot and magblades needs little help currently since snares and detections are punishing magblades already enough (funny fact is that stamblades are better with using cloak then magblades) but when reflecting is also added to the table it's just too much.

As for the dks that will propably start to defending wings and saying that idea of Cripple not beeing projectile is stupid and it's another hard hit into wings I just want to tell that they think that way only because their look at wings is really outdated and distorted. Wings are really strong skill when properly used but the problem is most dks would just want to spam the heck out of it thinking they'll be invincible agaisnt group of enemies and by the procces also bring lot of them to low health. When this is not happening we see QQs about how weak wings are. This is not what wings are designed for atleast not after 1.6 .

Juhasow

ak_pvp wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3zEQg5K60Q

4 light attacks and none of the projectiles needed. If that was cloak I would have survived.

Meanwhile: The NB and sorc discords had called for even less projectiles to be reflected.

[Edited disruptive title]

That is really simplified comment on what happened in this video.

Basicly it's like recording video on nightblade where there was 2 steel tornado spammers and nightblade was out of stamina and posting comment "Two steel tornado and non of the detect pots needed. If that would be Ball of Lightning I would have survived. "

What killed You was lack of resources , both magicka and stamina. You linked only last 20 seconds of recording but something drained You out of Your resources before that last twenty seconds and that something was multiple (atleast 3) enemies attacking You. Wings did the job pretty ok. If not the wings Your dead recap would be full of light attacks since You would die anyway in this particular sutiation no matter what. Fact that wings did not reflected things You wanted them to reflect doesnt mean wings did not protected You from any dmg. Also I think server did something wrong with queuing abilities since dead recap doesnt match things that happened on screen. Still wings did their job. Dont expect wings to always reflect what you want them to reflect especially when outnumbered. This skill is created to give slight relieve from range enemies dmg not to totally counter those dmg.

IZZEFlameLash

Juhasow wrote: »

In my opinion Cripple on mag nb should be that exception. With current nerf to speed buff and debuff that cripple will get plus buff to wings range magblades will be in very tough spot when dk especially magicka one will be around.

For build that is basicly based around projectiles and cant really bypass it without big sacrifices (or going into some cancer gank meta) having an enemy that can basicly not only counter but also reflect all the dmg dealt to him is slight overkill. This change wouldnt affect almost anyone and lets be honest wouldnt even hurt dragonknights that much but would help magblades a lot and magblades needs little help currently since snares and detections are punishing magblades already enough (funny fact is that stamblades are better with using cloak then magblades) but when reflecting is also added to the table it's just too much.

As for the dks that will propably start to defending wings and saying that idea of Cripple not beeing projectile is stupid and it's another hard hit into wings I just want to tell that they think that way only because their look at wings is really outdated and distorted. Wings are really strong skill when properly used but the problem is most dks would just want to spam the heck out of it thinking they'll be invincible agaisnt group of enemies and by the procces also bring lot of them to low health. When this is not happening we see QQs about how weak wings are. This is not what wings are designed for atleast not after 1.6 .

Most DKs don't slot wings or spam it though. Having another non-reflectable projectile basically renders the utility of this skill moot as we will be left with reflectable projectiles, mostly that are not really used by anyone. Most DKs I see would rather use Mist Form as the primary defense measure. Wings are only really useful against few most used projectiles of Strife and Snipe or Overload spammers. Maybe people should stop spamming projectiles even after DKs flap the wings.

Berenhir

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

In my opinion Cripple on mag nb should be that exception. With current nerf to speed buff and debuff that cripple will get plus buff to wings range magblades will be in very tough spot when dk especially magicka one will be around.

For build that is basicly based around projectiles and cant really bypass it without big sacrifices (or going into some cancer gank meta) having an enemy that can basicly not only counter but also reflect all the dmg dealt to him is slight overkill. This change wouldnt affect almost anyone and lets be honest wouldnt even hurt dragonknights that much but would help magblades a lot and magblades needs little help currently since snares and detections are punishing magblades already enough (funny fact is that stamblades are better with using cloak then magblades) but when reflecting is also added to the table it's just too much.

As for the dks that will propably start to defending wings and saying that idea of Cripple not beeing projectile is stupid and it's another hard hit into wings I just want to tell that they think that way only because their look at wings is really outdated and distorted. Wings are really strong skill when properly used but the problem is most dks would just want to spam the heck out of it thinking they'll be invincible agaisnt group of enemies and by the procces also bring lot of them to low health. When this is not happening we see QQs about how weak wings are. This is not what wings are designed for atleast not after 1.6 .

Most DKs don't slot wings or spam it though. Having another non-reflectable projectile basically renders the utility of this skill moot as we will be left with reflectable projectiles, mostly that are not really used by anyone. Most DKs I see would rather use Mist Form as the primary defense measure. Wings are only really useful against few most used projectiles of Strife and Snipe or Overload spammers. Maybe people should stop spamming projectiles even after DKs flap the wings.

As a player with several magNBs I can tell you that wings is the most common DK skill and used by 80% of DKs on PC EU.
There are some DKs still playing SnB that tend to not have wings but that playstyle is lackluster on DK anyway as destro resto is far superior. People just didn't pick up on it yet.

John_Falstaff

I must say I'm not happy about how PvP trends affect classes' performance in PvE. People in Cyrodiil call for wings to be nerfed, and there goes my already meager survivability in Maelstrom as stamina DK (a lot of mobs there use variations of class skills). I'd like to see more separation between management in PvP and PvE combat mechanics.

Aedaryl

ak_pvp wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3zEQg5K60Q

4 light attacks and none of the projectiles needed. If that was cloak I would have survived.

Meanwhile: The NB and sorc discords had called for even less projectiles to be reflected.

You didn't die because of wings, you died because you was OOM and because you didn't made a dodgeroll.

Its not the OOM that is the problem. It is the performance of wings.

Even if I survived, its a showcase of how poor wings holds up for its price in an openworld scenario. Even an 8k harness *** magicka would have absorbed the light attacks, and gave me mag back for another harness, would it have guaranteed a live, no. But it would have performed better in that scenario.

So you are taking the most OP sustain skill to say wings should be as much powerfull ?

You really thing a spammable defensive shield that give you more ressource than it cost, allowing you infinite sustain in openworld is the exemple to follow ?

lol

Bashev

It is sad how bad is the skill. What else can I say about this skill?

This skill has never been OP!!!!!!!!

Back in the time when it was supposed to reflect every projectile it was bugged and it drained resources.
When ZOS fixed it, they changed it to reflect only 4 projectiles in 6 seconds with a fixed CD.
Then they removed the cooldown on cast but the skill coudlnt reflect meteor and forse pulse anymore.

Every time when ZOS fix something with the skill, they nerf it.

The only good memories that i have using this skill is when meteor was reflectable.

IZZEFlameLash

Berenhir wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

In my opinion Cripple on mag nb should be that exception. With current nerf to speed buff and debuff that cripple will get plus buff to wings range magblades will be in very tough spot when dk especially magicka one will be around.

For build that is basicly based around projectiles and cant really bypass it without big sacrifices (or going into some cancer gank meta) having an enemy that can basicly not only counter but also reflect all the dmg dealt to him is slight overkill. This change wouldnt affect almost anyone and lets be honest wouldnt even hurt dragonknights that much but would help magblades a lot and magblades needs little help currently since snares and detections are punishing magblades already enough (funny fact is that stamblades are better with using cloak then magblades) but when reflecting is also added to the table it's just too much.

As for the dks that will propably start to defending wings and saying that idea of Cripple not beeing projectile is stupid and it's another hard hit into wings I just want to tell that they think that way only because their look at wings is really outdated and distorted. Wings are really strong skill when properly used but the problem is most dks would just want to spam the heck out of it thinking they'll be invincible agaisnt group of enemies and by the procces also bring lot of them to low health. When this is not happening we see QQs about how weak wings are. This is not what wings are designed for atleast not after 1.6 .

Most DKs don't slot wings or spam it though. Having another non-reflectable projectile basically renders the utility of this skill moot as we will be left with reflectable projectiles, mostly that are not really used by anyone. Most DKs I see would rather use Mist Form as the primary defense measure. Wings are only really useful against few most used projectiles of Strife and Snipe or Overload spammers. Maybe people should stop spamming projectiles even after DKs flap the wings.

As a player with several magNBs I can tell you that wings is the most common DK skill and used by 80% of DKs on PC EU.
There are some DKs still playing SnB that tend to not have wings but that playstyle is lackluster on DK anyway as destro resto is far superior. People just didn't pick up on it yet.

I also play my mNB (probably the second most played out of all the classes of all specs by me) and very projectile oriented one at that. I deal with wings just fine. It's almost too easy and rarely do I see DKs flap the wings. They rather go into Mist Form especially when they become the outnumbered side. StamDKs are the only DKs I see flapping wings from time to time only because they don't use Mist Form and need some way of relieving pressure while repositioning.

But then, you did state it is PC EU and as I understand, the meta there is quite different. Perhaps you have more deadly Snipe spammers or mNBs that DKs are actually better off with wings? I tried staff DK, but it just doesn't have that great of a synergy with it. Too much staff lockup in heavy attack animation during weaving and unable to use primary DK defense of blocking without paying the heavy price. After a month or two of staff DK, realized that S/B works better, for me at least.

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3zEQg5K60Q

4 light attacks and none of the projectiles needed. If that was cloak I would have survived.

Meanwhile: The NB and sorc discords had called for even less projectiles to be reflected.

You didn't die because of wings, you died because you was OOM and because you didn't made a dodgeroll.

Its not the OOM that is the problem. It is the performance of wings.

Even if I survived, its a showcase of how poor wings holds up for its price in an openworld scenario. Even an 8k harness *** magicka would have absorbed the light attacks, and gave me mag back for another harness, would it have guaranteed a live, no. But it would have performed better in that scenario.

So you are taking the most OP sustain skill to say wings should be as much powerfull ?

You really thing a spammable defensive shield that give you more ressource than it cost, allowing you infinite sustain in openworld is the exemple to follow ?

lol

Wings help sustain how again? Does it return 2k magicka and stamina every reflect? Does it have Major Heroism buff every reflect? Does it force miss everything? Does it help DKs actually get around anywhere without snare right back on?

Aedaryl

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

In my opinion Cripple on mag nb should be that exception. With current nerf to speed buff and debuff that cripple will get plus buff to wings range magblades will be in very tough spot when dk especially magicka one will be around.

For build that is basicly based around projectiles and cant really bypass it without big sacrifices (or going into some cancer gank meta) having an enemy that can basicly not only counter but also reflect all the dmg dealt to him is slight overkill. This change wouldnt affect almost anyone and lets be honest wouldnt even hurt dragonknights that much but would help magblades a lot and magblades needs little help currently since snares and detections are punishing magblades already enough (funny fact is that stamblades are better with using cloak then magblades) but when reflecting is also added to the table it's just too much.

As for the dks that will propably start to defending wings and saying that idea of Cripple not beeing projectile is stupid and it's another hard hit into wings I just want to tell that they think that way only because their look at wings is really outdated and distorted. Wings are really strong skill when properly used but the problem is most dks would just want to spam the heck out of it thinking they'll be invincible agaisnt group of enemies and by the procces also bring lot of them to low health. When this is not happening we see QQs about how weak wings are. This is not what wings are designed for atleast not after 1.6 .

Most DKs don't slot wings or spam it though. Having another non-reflectable projectile basically renders the utility of this skill moot as we will be left with reflectable projectiles, mostly that are not really used by anyone. Most DKs I see would rather use Mist Form as the primary defense measure. Wings are only really useful against few most used projectiles of Strife and Snipe or Overload spammers. Maybe people should stop spamming projectiles even after DKs flap the wings.

As a player with several magNBs I can tell you that wings is the most common DK skill and used by 80% of DKs on PC EU.
There are some DKs still playing SnB that tend to not have wings but that playstyle is lackluster on DK anyway as destro resto is far superior. People just didn't pick up on it yet.

I also play my mNB (probably the second most played out of all the classes of all specs by me) and very projectile oriented one at that. I deal with wings just fine. It's almost too easy and rarely do I see DKs flap the wings. They rather go into Mist Form especially when they become the outnumbered side. StamDKs are the only DKs I see flapping wings from time to time only because they don't use Mist Form and need some way of relieving pressure while repositioning.

But then, you did state it is PC EU and as I understand, the meta there is quite different. Perhaps you have more deadly Snipe spammers or mNBs that DKs are actually better off with wings? I tried staff DK, but it just doesn't have that great of a synergy with it. Too much staff lockup in heavy attack animation during weaving and unable to use primary DK defense of blocking without paying the heavy price. After a month or two of staff DK, realized that S/B works better, for me at least.

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3zEQg5K60Q

4 light attacks and none of the projectiles needed. If that was cloak I would have survived.

Meanwhile: The NB and sorc discords had called for even less projectiles to be reflected.

You didn't die because of wings, you died because you was OOM and because you didn't made a dodgeroll.

Its not the OOM that is the problem. It is the performance of wings.

Even if I survived, its a showcase of how poor wings holds up for its price in an openworld scenario. Even an 8k harness *** magicka would have absorbed the light attacks, and gave me mag back for another harness, would it have guaranteed a live, no. But it would have performed better in that scenario.

So you are taking the most OP sustain skill to say wings should be as much powerfull ?

You really thing a spammable defensive shield that give you more ressource than it cost, allowing you infinite sustain in openworld is the exemple to follow ?

lol

Wings help sustain how again? Does it return 2k magicka and stamina every reflect? Does it have Major Heroism buff every reflect? Does it force miss everything? Does it help DKs actually get around anywhere without snare right back on?

Wings reflect projectile and soon remove snare + give immunity, this is powerfull.

Ragnarock41

Aedaryl wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

In my opinion Cripple on mag nb should be that exception. With current nerf to speed buff and debuff that cripple will get plus buff to wings range magblades will be in very tough spot when dk especially magicka one will be around.

For build that is basicly based around projectiles and cant really bypass it without big sacrifices (or going into some cancer gank meta) having an enemy that can basicly not only counter but also reflect all the dmg dealt to him is slight overkill. This change wouldnt affect almost anyone and lets be honest wouldnt even hurt dragonknights that much but would help magblades a lot and magblades needs little help currently since snares and detections are punishing magblades already enough (funny fact is that stamblades are better with using cloak then magblades) but when reflecting is also added to the table it's just too much.

As for the dks that will propably start to defending wings and saying that idea of Cripple not beeing projectile is stupid and it's another hard hit into wings I just want to tell that they think that way only because their look at wings is really outdated and distorted. Wings are really strong skill when properly used but the problem is most dks would just want to spam the heck out of it thinking they'll be invincible agaisnt group of enemies and by the procces also bring lot of them to low health. When this is not happening we see QQs about how weak wings are. This is not what wings are designed for atleast not after 1.6 .

Most DKs don't slot wings or spam it though. Having another non-reflectable projectile basically renders the utility of this skill moot as we will be left with reflectable projectiles, mostly that are not really used by anyone. Most DKs I see would rather use Mist Form as the primary defense measure. Wings are only really useful against few most used projectiles of Strife and Snipe or Overload spammers. Maybe people should stop spamming projectiles even after DKs flap the wings.

As a player with several magNBs I can tell you that wings is the most common DK skill and used by 80% of DKs on PC EU.
There are some DKs still playing SnB that tend to not have wings but that playstyle is lackluster on DK anyway as destro resto is far superior. People just didn't pick up on it yet.

I also play my mNB (probably the second most played out of all the classes of all specs by me) and very projectile oriented one at that. I deal with wings just fine. It's almost too easy and rarely do I see DKs flap the wings. They rather go into Mist Form especially when they become the outnumbered side. StamDKs are the only DKs I see flapping wings from time to time only because they don't use Mist Form and need some way of relieving pressure while repositioning.

But then, you did state it is PC EU and as I understand, the meta there is quite different. Perhaps you have more deadly Snipe spammers or mNBs that DKs are actually better off with wings? I tried staff DK, but it just doesn't have that great of a synergy with it. Too much staff lockup in heavy attack animation during weaving and unable to use primary DK defense of blocking without paying the heavy price. After a month or two of staff DK, realized that S/B works better, for me at least.

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3zEQg5K60Q

4 light attacks and none of the projectiles needed. If that was cloak I would have survived.

Meanwhile: The NB and sorc discords had called for even less projectiles to be reflected.

You didn't die because of wings, you died because you was OOM and because you didn't made a dodgeroll.

Its not the OOM that is the problem. It is the performance of wings.

Even if I survived, its a showcase of how poor wings holds up for its price in an openworld scenario. Even an 8k harness *** magicka would have absorbed the light attacks, and gave me mag back for another harness, would it have guaranteed a live, no. But it would have performed better in that scenario.

So you are taking the most OP sustain skill to say wings should be as much powerfull ?

You really thing a spammable defensive shield that give you more ressource than it cost, allowing you infinite sustain in openworld is the exemple to follow ?

lol

Wings help sustain how again? Does it return 2k magicka and stamina every reflect? Does it have Major Heroism buff every reflect? Does it force miss everything? Does it help DKs actually get around anywhere without snare right back on?

Wings reflect projectile and soon remove snare + give immunity, this is powerfull.

I swear you spent the last 12 months trying to prove how op stamina DK is, why aren't you playing a Dk already man? Do you need help? I can help you farm it in skyreach if its too complex or something.

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO

This video seems like a weird example to me. If it's 4 on 1, you're going to die anyway (usually, unless the 4 opponents are all literal trash). I don't have a problem with wings reflecting light attacks, especially in the infused meta. If you're in a situation where you are being pursued by range casters, don't just pop wings once and expect them all to die. You might have to spam wings while you put some more distance between them and you, then single them out. DK is extremely powerful 1 on 1, especially with CC skills like Fossilize. Even against other very skilled DKs, if you play your cards right, you'll be incredibly formidable in a 1 on 1, but again, I just don't think you should go into a 1vX with skilled opponents and expect to kill them all.

I'm not saying DKs don't need any improvement in the PvP field (hell, even PvE DKs could use some love), but the current state of wings doesn't bother me that much. It's among the best defensive skills in the game. I think the devs just worry about buffs to DKs and how that could send us back to the days when DK was crazy OP.

ak_pvp

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

This video seems like a weird example to me. If it's 4 on 1, you're going to die anyway (usually, unless the 4 opponents are all literal trash). I don't have a problem with wings reflecting light attacks, especially in the infused meta. If you're in a situation where you are being pursued by range casters, don't just pop wings once and expect them all to die. You might have to spam wings while you put some more distance between them and you, then single them out. DK is extremely powerful 1 on 1, especially with CC skills like Fossilize. Even against other very skilled DKs, if you play your cards right, you'll be incredibly formidable in a 1 on 1, but again, I just don't think you should go into a 1vX with skilled opponents and expect to kill them all.

I'm not saying DKs don't need any improvement in the PvP field (hell, even PvE DKs could use some love), but the current state of wings doesn't bother me that much. It's among the best defensive skills in the game. I think the devs just worry about buffs to DKs and how that could send us back to the days when DK was crazy OP.

As long as cloak exists no class can get even close to that level of crazy op defense. And its not a 4 v 1 going to die / kill them all problem. Its a 4v1 but the ability is so *** that if I popped cloak or harness, I would have lived longer. Wings is only a 1v1 ability.

Aedaryl wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

In my opinion Cripple on mag nb should be that exception. With current nerf to speed buff and debuff that cripple will get plus buff to wings range magblades will be in very tough spot when dk especially magicka one will be around.

For build that is basicly based around projectiles and cant really bypass it without big sacrifices (or going into some cancer gank meta) having an enemy that can basicly not only counter but also reflect all the dmg dealt to him is slight overkill. This change wouldnt affect almost anyone and lets be honest wouldnt even hurt dragonknights that much but would help magblades a lot and magblades needs little help currently since snares and detections are punishing magblades already enough (funny fact is that stamblades are better with using cloak then magblades) but when reflecting is also added to the table it's just too much.

As for the dks that will propably start to defending wings and saying that idea of Cripple not beeing projectile is stupid and it's another hard hit into wings I just want to tell that they think that way only because their look at wings is really outdated and distorted. Wings are really strong skill when properly used but the problem is most dks would just want to spam the heck out of it thinking they'll be invincible agaisnt group of enemies and by the procces also bring lot of them to low health. When this is not happening we see QQs about how weak wings are. This is not what wings are designed for atleast not after 1.6 .

Most DKs don't slot wings or spam it though. Having another non-reflectable projectile basically renders the utility of this skill moot as we will be left with reflectable projectiles, mostly that are not really used by anyone. Most DKs I see would rather use Mist Form as the primary defense measure. Wings are only really useful against few most used projectiles of Strife and Snipe or Overload spammers. Maybe people should stop spamming projectiles even after DKs flap the wings.

As a player with several magNBs I can tell you that wings is the most common DK skill and used by 80% of DKs on PC EU.
There are some DKs still playing SnB that tend to not have wings but that playstyle is lackluster on DK anyway as destro resto is far superior. People just didn't pick up on it yet.

I also play my mNB (probably the second most played out of all the classes of all specs by me) and very projectile oriented one at that. I deal with wings just fine. It's almost too easy and rarely do I see DKs flap the wings. They rather go into Mist Form especially when they become the outnumbered side. StamDKs are the only DKs I see flapping wings from time to time only because they don't use Mist Form and need some way of relieving pressure while repositioning.

But then, you did state it is PC EU and as I understand, the meta there is quite different. Perhaps you have more deadly Snipe spammers or mNBs that DKs are actually better off with wings? I tried staff DK, but it just doesn't have that great of a synergy with it. Too much staff lockup in heavy attack animation during weaving and unable to use primary DK defense of blocking without paying the heavy price. After a month or two of staff DK, realized that S/B works better, for me at least.

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3zEQg5K60Q

4 light attacks and none of the projectiles needed. If that was cloak I would have survived.

Meanwhile: The NB and sorc discords had called for even less projectiles to be reflected.

You didn't die because of wings, you died because you was OOM and because you didn't made a dodgeroll.

Its not the OOM that is the problem. It is the performance of wings.

Even if I survived, its a showcase of how poor wings holds up for its price in an openworld scenario. Even an 8k harness *** magicka would have absorbed the light attacks, and gave me mag back for another harness, would it have guaranteed a live, no. But it would have performed better in that scenario.

So you are taking the most OP sustain skill to say wings should be as much powerfull ?

You really thing a spammable defensive shield that give you more ressource than it cost, allowing you infinite sustain in openworld is the exemple to follow ?

lol

Wings help sustain how again? Does it return 2k magicka and stamina every reflect? Does it have Major Heroism buff every reflect? Does it force miss everything? Does it help DKs actually get around anywhere without snare right back on?

Wings reflect projectile and soon remove snare + give immunity, this is powerfull.

2s. And 4 "projectiles. "

It is a shield that costs more and does less. Flip the roles. Its like nerfing hardened so it only absorbs 4 st melee attacks. And literally everything else goes through and hits health. Would suck wouldn't it?

f047ys3v3n

I'm confused, your a stam toon complaining because you were hit with some ranged skills that were not reflected with the magic skill you were relying on for defense?

You know you can dodge right? Dodge, that skill that dosen't take up a bar slot, can be used against everything used in pvp because ZOS relents on every undogable skill and makes them dogeable, has a cheap cost for a stam user, a cooldown on that cost almost as long as it causes shots to miss, and, for pool reasons, is really mostly a stam user skill.

What I see is a stam toon fighting 3 mag users, running out of resources then trying to running away, and being totally baffled that for once he didn't actually get away because stam toons have so much mobility this is a unheard of occasion. Next time you could also put a slow on them and they will just sit there since the only skill they have to drop it takes them out of the fight. You ran out of resources (the one thing a stam user can never do because you mag pull cannot save you) and failed to use all the cc, and dodge advantages that stam has while relying on a mag skill, which like all mag skills is lame in pvp, to survive.

Also, wings is an offensive not defensive skill. It is for casting before combat to basically trick your opponent into damaging themselves so you can count one of their attacks against them in a fight. In this scenario it is actually pretty OP against any mag user (what few are actually left in PVP).

ak_pvp

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I'm confused, your a stam toon complaining because you were hit with some ranged skills that were not reflected with the magic skill you were relying on for defense?

You know you can dodge right? Dodge, that skill that dosen't take up a bar slot, can be used against everything used in pvp because ZOS relents on every undogable skill and makes them dogeable, has a cheap cost for a stam user, a cooldown on that cost almost as long as it causes shots to miss, and, for pool reasons, is really mostly a stam user skill.

What I see is a stam toon fighting 3 mag users, running out of resources then trying to running away, and being totally baffled that for once he didn't actually get away because stam toons have so much mobility this is a unheard of occasion. Next time you could also put a slow on them and they will just sit there since the only skill they have to drop it takes them out of the fight. You ran out of resources (the one thing a stam user can never do because you mag pull cannot save you) and failed to use all the cc, and dodge advantages that stam has while relying on a mag skill, which like all mag skills is lame in pvp, to survive.

Also, wings is an offensive not defensive skill. It is for casting before combat to basically trick your opponent into damaging themselves so you can count one of their attacks against them in a fight. In this scenario it is actually pretty OP against any mag user (what few are actually left in PVP).

I am a mag toon, don't let the sword fool you. I can't really dodge much. I am complaining because the skill is underpowered compared to other mag defenses like cloak/shields. I hope you know that its basically only "OP" against a ranged magblade, pretty mediocre otherwise. Can 1v1 stalemate a sorc, but the sorc can do it back with harness (Super hard to die 1v1 unless you make a mistake if you have harness and enough size)

Also, what few are left? Magsorc is meta, Magblade is high played though not stam level and MagDK/Temp though not ranged or as high played are both more prevalent than their stam counterparts.

My update explains it.

Priyasekarssk

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

In my opinion Cripple on mag nb should be that exception. With current nerf to speed buff and debuff that cripple will get plus buff to wings range magblades will be in very tough spot when dk especially magicka one will be around.

For build that is basicly based around projectiles and cant really bypass it without big sacrifices (or going into some cancer gank meta) having an enemy that can basicly not only counter but also reflect all the dmg dealt to him is slight overkill. This change wouldnt affect almost anyone and lets be honest wouldnt even hurt dragonknights that much but would help magblades a lot and magblades needs little help currently since snares and detections are punishing magblades already enough (funny fact is that stamblades are better with using cloak then magblades) but when reflecting is also added to the table it's just too much.

As for the dks that will propably start to defending wings and saying that idea of Cripple not beeing projectile is stupid and it's another hard hit into wings I just want to tell that they think that way only because their look at wings is really outdated and distorted. Wings are really strong skill when properly used but the problem is most dks would just want to spam the heck out of it thinking they'll be invincible agaisnt group of enemies and by the procces also bring lot of them to low health. When this is not happening we see QQs about how weak wings are. This is not what wings are designed for atleast not after 1.6 .

Most DKs don't slot wings or spam it though. Having another non-reflectable projectile basically renders the utility of this skill moot as we will be left with reflectable projectiles, mostly that are not really used by anyone. Most DKs I see would rather use Mist Form as the primary defense measure. Wings are only really useful against few most used projectiles of Strife and Snipe or Overload spammers. Maybe people should stop spamming projectiles even after DKs flap the wings.

As a player with several magNBs I can tell you that wings is the most common DK skill and used by 80% of DKs on PC EU.
There are some DKs still playing SnB that tend to not have wings but that playstyle is lackluster on DK anyway as destro resto is far superior. People just didn't pick up on it yet.

I also play my mNB (probably the second most played out of all the classes of all specs by me) and very projectile oriented one at that. I deal with wings just fine. It's almost too easy and rarely do I see DKs flap the wings. They rather go into Mist Form especially when they become the outnumbered side. StamDKs are the only DKs I see flapping wings from time to time only because they don't use Mist Form and need some way of relieving pressure while repositioning.

But then, you did state it is PC EU and as I understand, the meta there is quite different. Perhaps you have more deadly Snipe spammers or mNBs that DKs are actually better off with wings? I tried staff DK, but it just doesn't have that great of a synergy with it. Too much staff lockup in heavy attack animation during weaving and unable to use primary DK defense of blocking without paying the heavy price. After a month or two of staff DK, realized that S/B works better, for me at least.

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3zEQg5K60Q

4 light attacks and none of the projectiles needed. If that was cloak I would have survived.

Meanwhile: The NB and sorc discords had called for even less projectiles to be reflected.

You didn't die because of wings, you died because you was OOM and because you didn't made a dodgeroll.

Its not the OOM that is the problem. It is the performance of wings.

Even if I survived, its a showcase of how poor wings holds up for its price in an openworld scenario. Even an 8k harness *** magicka would have absorbed the light attacks, and gave me mag back for another harness, would it have guaranteed a live, no. But it would have performed better in that scenario.

So you are taking the most OP sustain skill to say wings should be as much powerfull ?

You really thing a spammable defensive shield that give you more ressource than it cost, allowing you infinite sustain in openworld is the exemple to follow ?

lol

Wings help sustain how again? Does it return 2k magicka and stamina every reflect? Does it have Major Heroism buff every reflect? Does it force miss everything? Does it help DKs actually get around anywhere without snare right back on?

Wings reflect projectile and soon remove snare + give immunity, this is powerfull.

I swear you spent the last 12 months trying to prove how op stamina DK is, why aren't you playing a Dk already man? Do you need help? I can help you farm it in skyreach if its too complex or something.

I have magic dk.Need to level up.

ak_pvp

Updated, hopefully the nerf wings more squad likes this.

Aedaryl

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

In my opinion Cripple on mag nb should be that exception. With current nerf to speed buff and debuff that cripple will get plus buff to wings range magblades will be in very tough spot when dk especially magicka one will be around.

For build that is basicly based around projectiles and cant really bypass it without big sacrifices (or going into some cancer gank meta) having an enemy that can basicly not only counter but also reflect all the dmg dealt to him is slight overkill. This change wouldnt affect almost anyone and lets be honest wouldnt even hurt dragonknights that much but would help magblades a lot and magblades needs little help currently since snares and detections are punishing magblades already enough (funny fact is that stamblades are better with using cloak then magblades) but when reflecting is also added to the table it's just too much.

As for the dks that will propably start to defending wings and saying that idea of Cripple not beeing projectile is stupid and it's another hard hit into wings I just want to tell that they think that way only because their look at wings is really outdated and distorted. Wings are really strong skill when properly used but the problem is most dks would just want to spam the heck out of it thinking they'll be invincible agaisnt group of enemies and by the procces also bring lot of them to low health. When this is not happening we see QQs about how weak wings are. This is not what wings are designed for atleast not after 1.6 .

Most DKs don't slot wings or spam it though. Having another non-reflectable projectile basically renders the utility of this skill moot as we will be left with reflectable projectiles, mostly that are not really used by anyone. Most DKs I see would rather use Mist Form as the primary defense measure. Wings are only really useful against few most used projectiles of Strife and Snipe or Overload spammers. Maybe people should stop spamming projectiles even after DKs flap the wings.

As a player with several magNBs I can tell you that wings is the most common DK skill and used by 80% of DKs on PC EU.
There are some DKs still playing SnB that tend to not have wings but that playstyle is lackluster on DK anyway as destro resto is far superior. People just didn't pick up on it yet.

I also play my mNB (probably the second most played out of all the classes of all specs by me) and very projectile oriented one at that. I deal with wings just fine. It's almost too easy and rarely do I see DKs flap the wings. They rather go into Mist Form especially when they become the outnumbered side. StamDKs are the only DKs I see flapping wings from time to time only because they don't use Mist Form and need some way of relieving pressure while repositioning.

But then, you did state it is PC EU and as I understand, the meta there is quite different. Perhaps you have more deadly Snipe spammers or mNBs that DKs are actually better off with wings? I tried staff DK, but it just doesn't have that great of a synergy with it. Too much staff lockup in heavy attack animation during weaving and unable to use primary DK defense of blocking without paying the heavy price. After a month or two of staff DK, realized that S/B works better, for me at least.

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3zEQg5K60Q

4 light attacks and none of the projectiles needed. If that was cloak I would have survived.

Meanwhile: The NB and sorc discords had called for even less projectiles to be reflected.

You didn't die because of wings, you died because you was OOM and because you didn't made a dodgeroll.

Its not the OOM that is the problem. It is the performance of wings.

Even if I survived, its a showcase of how poor wings holds up for its price in an openworld scenario. Even an 8k harness *** magicka would have absorbed the light attacks, and gave me mag back for another harness, would it have guaranteed a live, no. But it would have performed better in that scenario.

So you are taking the most OP sustain skill to say wings should be as much powerfull ?

You really thing a spammable defensive shield that give you more ressource than it cost, allowing you infinite sustain in openworld is the exemple to follow ?

lol

Wings help sustain how again? Does it return 2k magicka and stamina every reflect? Does it have Major Heroism buff every reflect? Does it force miss everything? Does it help DKs actually get around anywhere without snare right back on?

Wings reflect projectile and soon remove snare + give immunity, this is powerfull.

I swear you spent the last 12 months trying to prove how op stamina DK is, why aren't you playing a Dk already man? Do you need help? I can help you farm it in skyreach if its too complex or something.

Do you need help to understand that snare immunity is the key to be in heavy and keeping Rally as a burst heal instead of FM ?

Juhasow

ak_pvp wrote: »

Updated, hopefully the nerf wings more squad likes this.

How about starting using empowering chain ?

ak_pvp

Juhasow wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Updated, hopefully the nerf wings more squad likes this.

How about starting using empowering chain ?

Ah yes. I forgot empowering chains allows me to engage all those 40m keep snipers who live in stealth.

Aedaryl

ak_pvp wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Updated, hopefully the nerf wings more squad likes this.

How about starting using empowering chain ?

Ah yes. I forgot empowering chains allows me to engage all those 40m keep snipers who live in stealth.

Use wings when you see/hear the snipe comming at you

ak_pvp

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Updated, hopefully the nerf wings more squad likes this.

How about starting using empowering chain ?

Ah yes. I forgot empowering chains allows me to engage all those 40m keep snipers who live in stealth.

Use wings when you see/hear the snipe comming at you

And then you get the issue of it breaking to 4 LAs in a second, refunding nothing, and ruining your hopes and dreams.

I did however get into a wait a long time and get thrown into a low MMR BG, where there was a few braindead kill themselves on wings snipe spammers and a few NBs and that was nice.

Dr_Ganknstein

Ive been seeing wings all over Cyrodiil lately. Normally when you see an overabundance of something in an mmorpg its because its op

Elusiin

ak_pvp wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3zEQg5K60Q

4 light attacks and none of the projectiles needed. If that was cloak I would have survived. Meanwhile: The NB and sorc discords had called for even less projectiles to be reflected.

[UPDATE:] Basically a copy of my other thread since it got deleted:

I was thinking about the original purpose of wings to force melee encounters. DKs unique stand your ground style with low mobility but good control, getting ranged into your turf was needed. IMO it has kind of been eroded a bit too much and the new DK is a discount magblade. The new change I propose would be to instead return the indirect form of range control without making wings as overpowered with an infinite counterless reflect as before.

Wings base: Deflects any direct damage from 15m+ for 4s. This doesn't reflect anymore on base, and like cloak, it has no projectile limit.

Fire scale: Would now reflect. No damage increase.

Plate would grant snare immunity/removal for 4s. No reflect. Why 4s, because 2s is not great for a slow class who can't avoid direct damage (and thus snares/roots) and an expensive ability as seen, its not enough for shuffle either. It would still be below FM.

This means that it becomes either a; Ranged offensive tool, where if you don't want to be hit with your own stuff. You should get closer. OR a solid flee tool that gives basic mobility (no speed, and less than momentum) that limits ranged hits, where you can't stop them. Unlike current use, it won't break almost instantly under pressure either or have illogical exceptions. So bird, ballista, shade bow, valkyn, and force pulse would all be reflect/deflectable after 15m.

It has counters in that you can get within 15m, and deal any ranged damage fine, which means if the DK has you in range (still slightly out of reach,) they lose the ability to nullify damage. Its a trade off for both sides. It is also a lot shorter duration and only one morph reflects so its less pressure to eat. It no longer becomes a hard counter to certain builds in a 1v1, but instead a strong but balanced openworld or battle ground tool.

Outside of that 15m, only full delayed damage and full AoEs would get through, i.e. curse, POTL, cripple, swarm, etc. But not things that are direct with dot AoE components (reach, poison injection and crystal blast examples of those that are direct first and would still be reflectable beyond) Basically the normal non projectiles but adding swarm and cripple since they don't have a direct portion and it doesn't make sense. Pressure would still be applicable, but mindless direct spamming to break wings would not. As for the implementation, range interaction differentiating is possible, bird does it to a lesser degree.

@ZOS_Wrobel @zos_Ginabruno

I could get behind this... Really hope SOMETHING is done about reflective scales because as it stands now there is no counter play, only changing your build to have no projectile abilities, again destroying build variety, preventing light attack weaving on staffs/bows, and forcing classes to slot additional abilities like hard cc that would otherwise be on projectile abilities like destructive clench/reach.

Draxys

Icky wrote: »

Ive been seeing wings all over Cyrodiil lately. Normally when you see an overabundance of something in an mmorpg its because its op

Stop necroing old threads for an ability that’s barely a shade of what it used to be. Let me guess, you’re a nightblade? If we’re balancing on over abundance, your class needs extreme nerfs, because half of cyrodiil is sitting in stealth trying to snipe people.

Elusiin

Draxys wrote: »

Icky wrote: »

Ive been seeing wings all over Cyrodiil lately. Normally when you see an overabundance of something in an mmorpg its because its op

Stop necroing old threads for an ability that’s barely a shade of what it used to be. Let me guess, you’re a nightblade? If we’re balancing on over abundance, your class needs extreme nerfs, because half of cyrodiil is sitting in stealth trying to snipe people.

Wouldn't have to necro if the broken mechanic of reflective all projectiles with no counter play was addressed.

Savos_Saren

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

Icky wrote: »

Ive been seeing wings all over Cyrodiil lately. Normally when you see an overabundance of something in an mmorpg its because its op

Stop necroing old threads for an ability that’s barely a shade of what it used to be. Let me guess, you’re a nightblade? If we’re balancing on over abundance, your class needs extreme nerfs, because half of cyrodiil is sitting in stealth trying to snipe people.

Wouldn't have to necro if the broken mechanic of reflective all projectiles with no counter play was addressed.

Well, if you're going off of this mentality- then cloak is 100% OP. I see a ton of it in Cyrodiil.

Joy_Division

Savos_Saren wrote: »

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

Icky wrote: »

Ive been seeing wings all over Cyrodiil lately. Normally when you see an overabundance of something in an mmorpg its because its op

Stop necroing old threads for an ability that’s barely a shade of what it used to be. Let me guess, you’re a nightblade? If we’re balancing on over abundance, your class needs extreme nerfs, because half of cyrodiil is sitting in stealth trying to snipe people.

Wouldn't have to necro if the broken mechanic of reflective all projectiles with no counter play was addressed.

Well, if you're going off of this mentality- then cloak is 100% OP. I see a ton of it in Cyrodiil.

You're forgetting the #1 rule of judging if something is OP: is it part of my class kit?

Savos_Saren

Joy_Division wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

Icky wrote: »

Ive been seeing wings all over Cyrodiil lately. Normally when you see an overabundance of something in an mmorpg its because its op

Stop necroing old threads for an ability that’s barely a shade of what it used to be. Let me guess, you’re a nightblade? If we’re balancing on over abundance, your class needs extreme nerfs, because half of cyrodiil is sitting in stealth trying to snipe people.

Wouldn't have to necro if the broken mechanic of reflective all projectiles with no counter play was addressed.

Well, if you're going off of this mentality- then cloak is 100% OP. I see a ton of it in Cyrodiil.

You're forgetting the #1 rule of judging if something is OP: is it part of my class kit?

@Joy_Division

Unless you run on all classes... then you might have an impartial point of view.

Of course- I'm not going to say anything about Argonian MagDens while I play one.

Joy_Division

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

Icky wrote: »

Ive been seeing wings all over Cyrodiil lately. Normally when you see an overabundance of something in an mmorpg its because its op

Stop necroing old threads for an ability that’s barely a shade of what it used to be. Let me guess, you’re a nightblade? If we’re balancing on over abundance, your class needs extreme nerfs, because half of cyrodiil is sitting in stealth trying to snipe people.

Wouldn't have to necro if the broken mechanic of reflective all projectiles with no counter play was addressed.

Well, if you're going off of this mentality- then cloak is 100% OP. I see a ton of it in Cyrodiil.

You're forgetting the #1 rule of judging if something is OP: is it part of my class kit?

@Joy_Division

Unless you run on all classes... then you might have an impartial point of view.

Of course- I'm not going to say anything about Argonian MagDens while I play one.

Perhaps, but like in Animal Farm, some classes are more equal than others