"Racial passives are fine already! Don't need to touch them" - Says every altmer/dunmer

Doctordarkspawn

maciopa wrote: »

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

IMO race assigned racial passives should be done away with altogether. Instead you should be allowed to pick 5 or so former racial passives from a group based on your class. As an example, a Khajiit sorcerer would focus on passives that boost their magic and spell casting, while an Altmer nightblade would choose passives that would enhance their stealth and ambush skills.

... and that would kill the game.

@Chilly-McFreeze expressed it perfectly at the end of his last post : "(...) Some things should be better for one stuff while other things should be better for different stuff. Even if we'd make all races equal we know the quest for equality wouldn't stop there. "Why can only NBs cloak? Why are magSorcs better at range than magDKs?" Next stop: dump classes. And then we are at the exact same discussion again. (...)".

Not really.

The only real problem people have with racial passives is being forced to play a race they dont want to just to be the most efficient. Being able to choose our passives would go a fair way toward that.

Also, dumping classes isn't exactly a bad idea, people have thrown around the idea of all characters having access to all skill lines before, and quite frankly I support that, because it'd be much easier to balance and give alot more build freedom.

Chilly-McFreeze

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

maciopa wrote: »

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

IMO race assigned racial passives should be done away with altogether. Instead you should be allowed to pick 5 or so former racial passives from a group based on your class. As an example, a Khajiit sorcerer would focus on passives that boost their magic and spell casting, while an Altmer nightblade would choose passives that would enhance their stealth and ambush skills.

... and that would kill the game.

@Chilly-McFreeze expressed it perfectly at the end of his last post : "(...) Some things should be better for one stuff while other things should be better for different stuff. Even if we'd make all races equal we know the quest for equality wouldn't stop there. "Why can only NBs cloak? Why are magSorcs better at range than magDKs?" Next stop: dump classes. And then we are at the exact same discussion again. (...)".

Not really.

The only real problem people have with racial passives is being forced to play a race they dont want to just to be the most efficient. Being able to choose our passives would go a fair way toward that.

Also, dumping classes isn't exactly a bad idea, people have thrown around the idea of all characters having access to all skill lines before, and quite frankly I support that, because it'd be much easier to balance and give alot more build freedom.

Do you really think we wouldn't end up in a complete meta scenario if we remove classes? Sure, for roleplayers it's a dream but for those who strive to be competitive (read: those who want to delete racial passives because X is 3% more effective thanY) it's then "this or bust" and you end up with even less freedom.
There probably wouldbe build 1 for ranged DPS, build 2 for melee (why should we even do this then?), 3 for tanks, 4 for healers etc.
Now you've got at least a few different builds, classes etc. in end game. End game is where performance really only matters, right? In overland you can run anything you want right now. It's still a faceroll.

So, someone asked before: "What's more important, build diversity or visual diversity?"
I could ask you now something similar. What's more important, diversity for competitive players or diversity for those who don't care as much about performace?

whsprwind

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

maciopa wrote: »

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

IMO race assigned racial passives should be done away with altogether. Instead you should be allowed to pick 5 or so former racial passives from a group based on your class. As an example, a Khajiit sorcerer would focus on passives that boost their magic and spell casting, while an Altmer nightblade would choose passives that would enhance their stealth and ambush skills.

... and that would kill the game.

@Chilly-McFreeze expressed it perfectly at the end of his last post : "(...) Some things should be better for one stuff while other things should be better for different stuff. Even if we'd make all races equal we know the quest for equality wouldn't stop there. "Why can only NBs cloak? Why are magSorcs better at range than magDKs?" Next stop: dump classes. And then we are at the exact same discussion again. (...)".

Not really.

The only real problem people have with racial passives is being forced to play a race they dont want to just to be the most efficient. Being able to choose our passives would go a fair way toward that.

Also, dumping classes isn't exactly a bad idea, people have thrown around the idea of all characters having access to all skill lines before, and quite frankly I support that, because it'd be much easier to balance and give alot more build freedom.

Do you really think we wouldn't end up in a complete meta scenario if we remove classes? Sure, for roleplayers it's a dream but for those who strive to be competitive (read: those who want to delete racial passives because X is 3% more effective thanY) it's then "this or bust" and you end up with even less freedom.
There probably wouldbe build 1 for ranged DPS, build 2 for melee (why should we even do this then?), 3 for tanks, 4 for healers etc.
Now you've got at least a few different builds, classes etc. in end game. End game is where performance really only matters, right? In overland you can run anything you want right now. It's still a faceroll.

So, someone asked before: "What's more important, build diversity or visual diversity?"
I could ask you now something similar. What's more important, diversity for competitive players or diversity for those who don't care as much about performace?

You don't know that the complete meta scenario is going to happen.

All OP is asking for is to have equal traits be offered as they currently are, without being bound to a specific race which should be completely cosmetic.

No nerfs, no buffs, no meta changes only more choices to players.

ArchMikem

Faulgor wrote: »

Khajiit - Carnage
Your weapon and spell critical are increased by f%.

It'd be perfect if ZOS gave them their Max Stam back too.

Chilly-McFreeze

whsprwind wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

maciopa wrote: »

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

IMO race assigned racial passives should be done away with altogether. Instead you should be allowed to pick 5 or so former racial passives from a group based on your class. As an example, a Khajiit sorcerer would focus on passives that boost their magic and spell casting, while an Altmer nightblade would choose passives that would enhance their stealth and ambush skills.

... and that would kill the game.

@Chilly-McFreeze expressed it perfectly at the end of his last post : "(...) Some things should be better for one stuff while other things should be better for different stuff. Even if we'd make all races equal we know the quest for equality wouldn't stop there. "Why can only NBs cloak? Why are magSorcs better at range than magDKs?" Next stop: dump classes. And then we are at the exact same discussion again. (...)".

Not really.

The only real problem people have with racial passives is being forced to play a race they dont want to just to be the most efficient. Being able to choose our passives would go a fair way toward that.

Also, dumping classes isn't exactly a bad idea, people have thrown around the idea of all characters having access to all skill lines before, and quite frankly I support that, because it'd be much easier to balance and give alot more build freedom.

Do you really think we wouldn't end up in a complete meta scenario if we remove classes? Sure, for roleplayers it's a dream but for those who strive to be competitive (read: those who want to delete racial passives because X is 3% more effective thanY) it's then "this or bust" and you end up with even less freedom.
There probably wouldbe build 1 for ranged DPS, build 2 for melee (why should we even do this then?), 3 for tanks, 4 for healers etc.
Now you've got at least a few different builds, classes etc. in end game. End game is where performance really only matters, right? In overland you can run anything you want right now. It's still a faceroll.

So, someone asked before: "What's more important, build diversity or visual diversity?"
I could ask you now something similar. What's more important, diversity for competitive players or diversity for those who don't care as much about performace?

You don't know that the complete meta scenario is going to happen.

All OP is asking for is to have equal traits be offered as they currently are, without being bound to a specific race which should be completely cosmetic.

No nerfs, no buffs, no meta changes only more choices to players.

And you don't know that it wouldn't happen.

All I stated is a possible outcome of dumbing down the current system.

If you don't like it, so be it. I don't like OP's idea either. But you can't tell me that people who are now "forced" to run a different from the meta build because they are dead set "on the colour of the hands that hold their daggers" are going to run anything but a meta combination should that change ever happen.

E: In b4 the next "oh no, I don't want to be forced to make decisions with consequences in a RPG" post.

Benemime

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

maciopa wrote: »

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

IMO race assigned racial passives should be done away with altogether. Instead you should be allowed to pick 5 or so former racial passives from a group based on your class. As an example, a Khajiit sorcerer would focus on passives that boost their magic and spell casting, while an Altmer nightblade would choose passives that would enhance their stealth and ambush skills.

... and that would kill the game.

@Chilly-McFreeze expressed it perfectly at the end of his last post : "(...) Some things should be better for one stuff while other things should be better for different stuff. Even if we'd make all races equal we know the quest for equality wouldn't stop there. "Why can only NBs cloak? Why are magSorcs better at range than magDKs?" Next stop: dump classes. And then we are at the exact same discussion again. (...)".

Not really.

The only real problem people have with racial passives is being forced to play a race they dont want to just to be the most efficient. Being able to choose our passives would go a fair way toward that.

Also, dumping classes isn't exactly a bad idea, people have thrown around the idea of all characters having access to all skill lines before, and quite frankly I support that, because it'd be much easier to balance and give alot more build freedom.

Do you really think we wouldn't end up in a complete meta scenario if we remove classes? Sure, for roleplayers it's a dream but for those who strive to be competitive (read: those who want to delete racial passives because X is 3% more effective thanY) it's then "this or bust" and you end up with even less freedom.
There probably wouldbe build 1 for ranged DPS, build 2 for melee (why should we even do this then?), 3 for tanks, 4 for healers etc.
Now you've got at least a few different builds, classes etc. in end game. End game is where performance really only matters, right? In overland you can run anything you want right now. It's still a faceroll.

So, someone asked before: "What's more important, build diversity or visual diversity?"
I could ask you now something similar. What's more important, diversity for competitive players or diversity for those who don't care as much about performace?

It's so funny reading you making low blows between your posts, like if this thread resumes in 3% efficiency loss...we wish it was, the current passives affects heavily on gameplay and it doesn't let players to be free, so if you want to see yourself in the game, creating a redguard (or orc), you see yourself tied to be a warrior. When the new players realizes that they are playing with a race that is not efficient, they are probably going to give up on being magicka (or stamina). This is the opposite of diversity in my opinion.

The potion passive from argonians is something unique, that might create different builds, but the rest is just a % boost on stats. The majority of passives is just a % or a number boost, with few exceptions.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

All I stated is a possible outcome of dumbing down the current system.

what you call "dumbing down" you mean we being able to have more options and freedom of choice to match our style, personalizing our builds with passives, imo this is the opposite of dumbing down. You keep saying "ad hominem" while you do ad hominem yourself, poorly adjectifying like you just did.

And I'm not being egocentric like you said during your rant, i'm defending my point of view as much as you are defending yours over everyone else that is disagreeing with you.

maciopa

Benemime wrote: »

cut. in a half. and then another half

I see that plenty of people here are quite inexperienced in MMOrpg environment/history - so let me bring an example for you fellow speakers - there was a game with a system resembling the one you propose - The Secret World - where one started as a "tabula rasa" and was investing own skill points into various "skill trees" and .... it did not work out for them. Not at all.
So they have created an another version of the game - TSW Legends - where you are choosing a "starting class" and you know what - people like that system more than the previous one.
(the same happened to SWG game in the past - a person was totally free to shape own character - the game did not survive, now we have SWTOR game with archetypes etc etc etc ).

btw - you may try an EveOnline game where you are free to develop your character in whatever you want... it gets dull after some time BECAUSE. as @Chilly-McFreeze said - you end up with a certain fixed in a stone set up for a melee DPS, another one for ranged DPS etc etc etc and the game lacks diversity and challenge.

(ps. Honestly - I wonder for what competing company some of those people who wants to see this game collapse work... Just thinking aloud without pointing fingers...).

Chilly-McFreeze

Benemime wrote: »

what you call "dumbing down" you mean we being able to have more options and freedom of choice to match our style, personalizing our builds with passives, imo this is the opposite of dumbing down. You keep saying "ad hominem" while you do ad hominem yourself, poorly adjectifying like you just did.

And I'm not being egocentric like you said during your rant, i'm defending my point of view as much as you are defending yours over everyone else that is disagreeing with you.

To be fair that ad hominem refered to parts of your outburst, where you called every meta-player worse players and told us we only defend racials bc we chose fitting ones.

However, seems our discussion won't lead us anywhere. I still doubt that erasing restrictions and opportunity costs would lead to increased diversity, quite the opposite, and haven't read any good counterargument. You still insist on the freedom-of-choice aspect over given diversity. So whatever we will agree or disagree over probably won't have an impact on zenis work anyway.

coop500

I personally like the idea, though I don't really pay much mind to the meta races it would be nice

DoobZ69

maciopa wrote: »

Benemime wrote: »

cut. in a half. and then another half

I see that plenty of people here are quite inexperienced in MMOrpg environment/history - so let me bring an example for you fellow speakers - there was a game with a system resembling the one you propose - The Secret World - where one started as a "tabula rasa" and was investing own skill points into various "skill trees" and .... it did not work out for them. Not at all.
So they have created an another version of the game - TSW Legends - where you are choosing a "starting class" and you know what - people like that system more than the previous one.
(the same happened to SWG game in the past - a person was totally free to shape own character - the game did not survive, now we have SWTOR game with archetypes etc etc etc ).

btw - you may try an EveOnline game where you are free to develop your character in whatever you want... it gets dull after some time BECAUSE. as @Chilly-McFreeze said - you end up with a certain fixed in a stone set up for a melee DPS, another one for ranged DPS etc etc etc and the game lacks diversity and challenge.

(ps. Honestly - I wonder for what competing company some of those people who wants to see this game collapse work... Just thinking aloud without pointing fingers...).

Hey genius, what racial passives are in SWTOR? The game you just quoted. This is a Racial passives discussion, not classes discussion. What competing company do you, who wants to see this game collapse, work?

Doctordarkspawn

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

maciopa wrote: »

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

IMO race assigned racial passives should be done away with altogether. Instead you should be allowed to pick 5 or so former racial passives from a group based on your class. As an example, a Khajiit sorcerer would focus on passives that boost their magic and spell casting, while an Altmer nightblade would choose passives that would enhance their stealth and ambush skills.

... and that would kill the game.

@Chilly-McFreeze expressed it perfectly at the end of his last post : "(...) Some things should be better for one stuff while other things should be better for different stuff. Even if we'd make all races equal we know the quest for equality wouldn't stop there. "Why can only NBs cloak? Why are magSorcs better at range than magDKs?" Next stop: dump classes. And then we are at the exact same discussion again. (...)".

Not really.

The only real problem people have with racial passives is being forced to play a race they dont want to just to be the most efficient. Being able to choose our passives would go a fair way toward that.

Also, dumping classes isn't exactly a bad idea, people have thrown around the idea of all characters having access to all skill lines before, and quite frankly I support that, because it'd be much easier to balance and give alot more build freedom.

Do you really think we wouldn't end up in a complete meta scenario if we remove classes? Sure, for roleplayers it's a dream but for those who strive to be competitive (read: those who want to delete racial passives because X is 3% more effective thanY) it's then "this or bust" and you end up with even less freedom.
There probably wouldbe build 1 for ranged DPS, build 2 for melee (why should we even do this then?), 3 for tanks, 4 for healers etc.
Now you've got at least a few different builds, classes etc. in end game. End game is where performance really only matters, right? In overland you can run anything you want right now. It's still a faceroll.

So, someone asked before: "What's more important, build diversity or visual diversity?"
I could ask you now something similar. What's more important, diversity for competitive players or diversity for those who don't care as much about performace?

I think we would, the meta *allways exists*.

The problems come when you try to regulate the meta or take it as some sort of exemplar of game balance.

As for that question, well that's easy. Competative players can go screw. Their easily the most toxic and damaging part of any community due to how much they demand, how little their willing to give, and we should stop lisening to them. Competative/hardcore players demand we make changes that kill games. They are the games enemy. It's just that simple. You may think this is extreme, that it's uncalled for, but it's supported by every single time a game has died trying to please said audience or tried to cater to the hardcore audience to it's own detriment. SWTOR's raids. Wildstar. Wizardry. The list can and will go on.

I stand by my statement on the matter. Yes, there will allways be people who demand people run the meta but quite frankly those people should be punished when they do if the changes do go through. The problem remains, that if we box ourselves into a few builds with no options, and lets be brutally honest, we allways have. That's how the game has allways been designed. One optimal build per class and roll, and that wouldn't change if we opened all class lines to all characters. This game has never been free for players to choose. No, what we need to do is just stop balancing for the meta and just make things fun to play and use. Games that endure, that put fun first, survive.

efster

DenMoria wrote: »

Wasn't Shalidor a Nord? I wonder if he had any use for his racial passives.

Yes! Nords are not known throughout Tamriel for their magicka prowess but there CAN be Nords who are born with a better affinity for it or who just train themselves really well. Ditto Redguards -- if someone wants to play a magic-using Redguard, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to; the Sword-Singers of old used the power of their minds -- in other words, MAGIC -- to make their weapons, and they're still widely regarded as the strongest fighters.

This kind of thing is precisely why I think that rather than changing the racial passives as they are, there should be a tier of passives introduced so that if a character with a "suboptimal" race for their attribute spread can get access to passives that buff the "correct" attribute or stat if they spend their attributes, wear a type of armour, and/or assign their skills in a particular way.

For example, oh, your character is a Nord, but you have 64 points in Magicka and wearing light armour? Well, then you lose your Frost resistance due to being a squishy magic user, but you gain a spell damage buff to your class abilities. It dovetails nicely with the "I trained my character to be X". If you're a Khajiit with all points in Magicka and light armour, you lose your Stamina buffs and gain the equivalent in Magicka. If you're a Breton sorc using stam morphs, you lose magicka recovery and gain stamina recovery instead. ETC ad nauseam.

I mean, this is just spitballing, and it would have to be balanced from the ground up, but I think it would be cool. of course, with Race Change tokens in the crown store, it's very unlikely to happen.

Benemime

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Benemime wrote: »

what you call "dumbing down" you mean we being able to have more options and freedom of choice to match our style, personalizing our builds with passives, imo this is the opposite of dumbing down. You keep saying "ad hominem" while you do ad hominem yourself, poorly adjectifying like you just did.

And I'm not being egocentric like you said during your rant, i'm defending my point of view as much as you are defending yours over everyone else that is disagreeing with you.

To be fair that ad hominem refered to parts of your outburst, where you called every meta-player worse players and told us we only defend racials bc we chose fitting ones.

you are twisting my words and that's not what I said tho, I said that we are probably better because we have to make it work without passives:

Players that are insatisfied with the current system are probably better than you since we have to make it work without them.

That's exactly what I said and that was for defending myself from players that were saying things like "oh if you 'blow' without those passives i have bad news for you" - i never said that we, non-meta, blows without passives and that we are performing poorly, it's just that we are behind in efficient and performance, if I had the same build with the same set that i have now, and altmer passives (that i don't have), i would be better than I am now, plain and simple, it doesn't matter how good we are we can't compare our current inexistent passives to HEAVY buffs.

Joy_Division

This would have been the perfect opportunity for the Champion system to actually augment and improve the game. Instead of giving us boring and flat power boosts, it would have been nice for it to offer the option of customizing characters such that for example a Bosmer could pick a trait to gain beneficial magicka-oriented passives or for Altmer to be skilled with melee combat.

maciopa

DoobZ69 wrote: »

maciopa wrote: »

Benemime wrote: »

cut. in a half. and then another half

I see that plenty of people here are quite inexperienced in MMOrpg environment/history - so let me bring an example for you fellow speakers - there was a game with a system resembling the one you propose - The Secret World - where one started as a "tabula rasa" and was investing own skill points into various "skill trees" and .... it did not work out for them. Not at all.
So they have created an another version of the game - TSW Legends - where you are choosing a "starting class" and you know what - people like that system more than the previous one.
(the same happened to SWG game in the past - a person was totally free to shape own character - the game did not survive, now we have SWTOR game with archetypes etc etc etc ).

btw - you may try an EveOnline game where you are free to develop your character in whatever you want... it gets dull after some time BECAUSE. as @Chilly-McFreeze said - you end up with a certain fixed in a stone set up for a melee DPS, another one for ranged DPS etc etc etc and the game lacks diversity and challenge.

(ps. Honestly - I wonder for what competing company some of those people who wants to see this game collapse work... Just thinking aloud without pointing fingers...).

Hey genius, what racial passives are in SWTOR? The game you just quoted. This is a Racial passives discussion, not classes discussion. What competing company do you, who wants to see this game collapse, work?

That's great that out of the whole post you just brought the last game I mentioned without the context (I assume You have no idea how did SWG work) and want to make the discussion personal rather than about the topic brought up by OP.
Good for you, kid!

wishlist14

Yes I totally agree. Get rid of racial passives so we can be free to play what race we want without worrying about how the passives work with what build we choose to play. I want to see more Nords running around Tamriel and I want to play a woodelf myself but my choices of builds feel very limited to be honest. Everytime I try to research on suitable races for a class there are too many opinions and then you have to also take into consider wether they are for pve or pvp. Some racial passives benefit pvp players more and vise verse and it drives me nuts trying to make a build that is viable and with a race I like the look of cosmetically and so it goes on and on.....my dilemma. Nords have place in Tamriel too yet they are useless atm.

CyberSkooma

The "lore" arguments are obselete. I run around on a bear made out of flames.