"Racial passives are fine already! Don't need to touch them" - Says every altmer/dunmer

DanteYoda

Beardimus wrote: »

No, disagree totally. Race should mean more. Alliance should mean more.

Id prefer they didn't have the any race any alliance pack too, make race choice mean something. The pack is what devalues it, and makes the meta chase.

Well with that logic only two races currently mean anything at this time.. The rest are meaningless gameplay wise..

My main reason for ditching racials is to shut up that annoying dungeon community so busy abusing everyone and kicking customers because they don't fit that cookie cutter meta...

wozborne

Yes, let’s kill diversity and homogenize the game even further because some people picked a bad race for their class and don’t want to pay for a race change. Sounds like a great idea /s

Sovjet

Very very very bad idea, thanks for the thought tho

LadyLavina

ChildOfLight wrote: »

HEAVILY nerf Argonian, Altamer, Dunmer
SLIGHTLY buff Imperial, Nord, Breton

Voilà, balance achieved.

@ChildOfLight Wow, I thought OP's idea was terrible. Yours is worse.

tplink3r1

Racial passives are fine.

Tandor

danno8 wrote: »

MerlinPendragon wrote: »

Sorry but the OPs idea is awful and terribly selfish. It is the equivalent of saying "if I can't have it, I don't want anyone to have it."

Allow for the races without good passives to get buffed to catch up to those who do. We need more differentiation in this game... not more vanilla templates or adhering to this "make everyone equal" hippie non sense.

There is no doubt a few races (i.e. Nords) who got the short end of the stick and need a revamp, but eliminating them all together is not the way to solve this.

Are you sure you read the OP? His suggestion would lead to more varied characters and differentiation not less.

For example, when you see an Altmer character in the game, what are they playing? Did you immediately think "they could be playing a Stamina NB!", or did you think "another magicka toon". Because 99% of the time they are magicka classes.

Same with Redguard, Bosmer, and Khajiit. 99% time Stamina class.

With the dissociation of stat perks with Race, you would finally see Nord magsorcs, and Khajiit magplars, Altmer Stamblades and Bosmer magdens without thinking "man that guy has no idea what they were doing at character creation".

No it wouldn't, because the only players who worry about such things would all pick what some streamer told them was the best template, and then two things would happen. First, they'd complain as soon as the next update changed things, and second they'd complain about the lack of purpose to all the other specialisations.

Facefister

danno8 wrote: »

MerlinPendragon wrote: »

Sorry but the OPs idea is awful and terribly selfish. It is the equivalent of saying "if I can't have it, I don't want anyone to have it."

Allow for the races without good passives to get buffed to catch up to those who do. We need more differentiation in this game... not more vanilla templates or adhering to this "make everyone equal" hippie non sense.

There is no doubt a few races (i.e. Nords) who got the short end of the stick and need a revamp, but eliminating them all together is not the way to solve this.

Are you sure you read the OP? His suggestion would lead to more varied characters and differentiation not less.

For example, when you see an Altmer character in the game, what are they playing? Did you immediately think "they could be playing a Stamina NB!", or did you think "another magicka toon". Because 99% of the time they are magicka classes.

Same with Redguard, Bosmer, and Khajiit. 99% time Stamina class.

With the dissociation of stat perks with Race, you would finally see Nord magsorcs, and Khajiit magplars, Altmer Stamblades and Bosmer magdens without thinking "man that guy has no idea what they were doing at character creation".

Every race being able to do everything equally good will kill diversity in the game. Also it will collide with the lore.

AntonShan

I have a better idea. Remove all races except altmer and dunmer.

SilverWF

ZOS just need to add more diversity
If you are mage, then Altmer in 80% cases and Dunmer in 20% - WTF?
They need to buff Bretons!

idk

ChildOfLight wrote: »

HEAVILY nerf Argonian, Altamer, Dunmer
SLIGHTLY buff Imperial, Nord, Breton

Voilà, balance achieved.

Says someone with an Imp, Nord, Breton

nemvar

laughs in argonian

Aarlur

The birthsign is a good idea. The racial passives takes our freedom of choice away.

DanteYoda

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Racial passives are fine.

Says every Altmer and redguard...

whsprwind

Facefister wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

MerlinPendragon wrote: »

Sorry but the OPs idea is awful and terribly selfish. It is the equivalent of saying "if I can't have it, I don't want anyone to have it."

Allow for the races without good passives to get buffed to catch up to those who do. We need more differentiation in this game... not more vanilla templates or adhering to this "make everyone equal" hippie non sense.

There is no doubt a few races (i.e. Nords) who got the short end of the stick and need a revamp, but eliminating them all together is not the way to solve this.

Are you sure you read the OP? His suggestion would lead to more varied characters and differentiation not less.

For example, when you see an Altmer character in the game, what are they playing? Did you immediately think "they could be playing a Stamina NB!", or did you think "another magicka toon". Because 99% of the time they are magicka classes.

Same with Redguard, Bosmer, and Khajiit. 99% time Stamina class.

With the dissociation of stat perks with Race, you would finally see Nord magsorcs, and Khajiit magplars, Altmer Stamblades and Bosmer magdens without thinking "man that guy has no idea what they were doing at character creation".

Every race being able to do everything equally good will kill diversity in the game. Also it will collide with the lore.

There is diversity only if you can achieve equally viable builds on all races with their differences. Right now, there just isn't a viable build for a Redguard/Nord mage. I have a Dunmer and Nord magDK and i do about 20% less DPS with the same rotation & gear everything on my Nord.

Lore - already explained.

Making Racial passives purely cosmetic is not going to affect the existing Altmer/Dunmers, it's only going to give the "lesser" races a fighting chance to play the way we want.

Faulgor

If people expect diversity from their race choice, you'd have to go about them entirely differently.
Instead of having clear magicka and stamina races, each race should bring a unique flavour that helps every build. That means you'll have to focus the bonuses on aspects that every character uses, like potions, food, enchantments, armor; Or that affect all attributes across the board, like the Argonian potion ability.

For example:

Altmer - Kinhouse Excellence
Your jewelry enchantments are a% stronger.

Argonian - Resourceful
Just keep this one, minus the max magicka.

Breton - Soulwrench
Your weapon enchantments are b% stronger.

Bosmer - Resilient
Your attribute recoveries are increased by c%.

Dunmer - House Discount
Your abilities cost d% less.

Imperial - All Corners of the Empire
Your max attributes are increased by e%.

Khajiit - Carnage
Your weapon and spell critical are increased by f%.

Nord - Witch Warrior
Your armor enchantments are g% stronger.

Orc - Master Artisan
Your armor traits are h% stronger.

Redguard - Might of Yokuda
Your weapon traits are i% stronger.

And then adjust the values from there. Entirely lore-appropriate, and lets you create a viable character of any role with most races. I imagine changes like this would upset a lot of people, but it's the only way I can actually see race diversity increasing long-term.

Facefister

Faulgor wrote: »

If people expect diversity from their race choice, you'd have to go about them entirely differently.
Instead of having clear magicka and stamina races, each race should bring a unique flavour that helps every build. That means you'll have to focus the bonuses on aspects that every character uses, like potions, food, enchantments, armor; Or that affect all attributes across the board, like the Argonian potion ability.

For example:

Altmer - Kinhouse Excellence
Your jewelry enchantments are a% stronger.

Argonian - Resourceful
Just keep this one, minus the max magicka.

Breton - Soulwrench
Your weapon enchantments are b% stronger.

Bosmer - Resilient
Your attribute recoveries are increased by c%.

Dunmer - House Discount
Your abilities cost d% less.

Imperial - All Corners of the Empire
Your max attributes are increased by e%.

Khajiit - Carnage
Your weapon and spell critical are increased by f%.

Nord - Witch Warrior
Your armor enchantments are g% stronger.

Orc - Master Artisan
Your armor traits are h% stronger.

Redguard - Might of Yokuda
Your weapon traits are i% stronger.

And then adjust the values from there. Entirely lore-appropriate, and lets you create a viable character of any role with most races. I imagine changes like this would upset a lot of people, but it's the only way I can actually see race diversity increasing long-term.

Interesting idea. I support it.

Chilly-McFreeze

Faulgor wrote: »

If people expect diversity from their race choice, you'd have to go about them entirely differently.
Instead of having clear magicka and stamina races, each race should bring a unique flavour that helps every build. That means you'll have to focus the bonuses on aspects that every character uses, like potions, food, enchantments, armor; Or that affect all attributes across the board, like the Argonian potion ability.

For example:

Altmer - Kinhouse Excellence
Your jewelry enchantments are a% stronger.

Argonian - Resourceful
Just keep this one, minus the max magicka.

Breton - Soulwrench
Your weapon enchantments are b% stronger.

Bosmer - Resilient
Your attribute recoveries are increased by c%.

Dunmer - House Discount
Your abilities cost d% less.

Imperial - All Corners of the Empire
Your max attributes are increased by e%.

Khajiit - Carnage
Your weapon and spell critical are increased by f%.

Nord - Witch Warrior
Your armor enchantments are g% stronger.

Orc - Master Artisan
Your armor traits are h% stronger.

Redguard - Might of Yokuda
Your weapon traits are i% stronger.

And then adjust the values from there. Entirely lore-appropriate, and lets you create a viable character of any role with most races. I imagine changes like this would upset a lot of people, but it's the only way I can actually see race diversity increasing long-term.

Sure. And then someone does the maths and sees e.g." for mag builds on class sorcs it's most important to have high resources, spell damage from jewels is only secondary, therefor we go with Nord or Imps instead of Altmer". It would cause nothing but a shift in the meta, but it wouldn't eliminate BiS combinations.

Also, if people complain about bretons dont being used often for mag builds bc they offer sustain but not so much damage, what do you think would happen to classes that then only offer sustain instead of damage, like Dunmer, Bosmer or Argonians?

No, thank you.

E: to add to that: there will always be a meta combination that is a tiny bit superior to everything else. Those who kick you now for having chosen the wrong race will also kick you then for having the wrong race/ birthsign/ affiliation or whatever. Those who care now about having an optimal build will then again switch to what is optimal then, no matter where it comes from.

Faulgor

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sure. And then someone does the maths and sees e.g." for mag builds on class sorcs it's most important to have high resources, spell damage from jewels is only secondary, therefor we go with Nord or Imps instead of Altmer". It would cause nothing but a shift in the meta, but it wouldn't eliminate BiS combinations.

Hence "and then adjust the values from there". The point is that such a system would mean that your race is not a complete waste for certain classes and roles, and that it would be more resilient to changes in the meta. It is not to completely eliminate BIS builds for certain roles and situations. That's futile.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Also, if people complain about bretons dont being used often for mag builds bc they offer sustain but not so much damage, what do you think would happen to classes that then only offer sustain instead of damage, like Dunmer, Bosmer or Argonians?

What would happen is that those races don't have to rely on other sources of sustain, whereas races that don't have sustain bonuses do. What is your point? That because balance between races is crap now it has to be crap then?
Regardless, don't give them sustain passives, then. Those are just examples.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

No, thank you.

So what is your idea to promote diversity?

Chilly-McFreeze

Faulgor wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sure. And then someone does the maths and sees e.g." for mag builds on class sorcs it's most important to have high resources, spell damage from jewels is only secondary, therefor we go with Nord or Imps instead of Altmer". It would cause nothing but a shift in the meta, but it wouldn't eliminate BiS combinations.

Hence "and then adjust the values from there". The point is that such a system would mean that your race is not a complete waste for certain classes and roles, and that it would be more resilient to changes in the meta. It is not to completely eliminate BIS builds for certain roles and situations. That's futile.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Also, if people complain about bretons dont being used often for mag builds bc they offer sustain but not so much damage, what do you think would happen to classes that then only offer sustain instead of damage, like Dunmer, Bosmer or Argonians?

What would happen is that those races don't have to rely on other sources of sustain, whereas races that don't have sustain bonuses do. What is your point? That because balance between races is crap now it has to be crap then?
Regardless, don't give them sustain passives, then. Those are just examples.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

No, thank you.

So what is your idea to promote diversity?

I think you missed the point in the second paragraph. ATM e.g. Dunmer has all passives that increase damage but nothing for sustain. How popular is that race? Now look at Breton and Khajiit. They have "some" passives that increase damage but mainly resource (mag cost reduction, stam regen) and they aren't BiS. They have their places but a meta DD wouldn't choose them over those who do more damage.

So either you just switch races around from meta to okaish and vice versa or you have to increase those resource passives to the point it gets rediculous. How much percent cost reduction must Dunmer get to be able to slot "more" damage sets/glyphs than e.g.races with damage/max resources buffs can to even out?

"That because balance between races is crap now it has to be crap then?"

Did I said that or is it what you want to get out of my comment? I just think your suggestions as you posted them above are bad.

And what I would do? Buff underwhelming races to the point they are worthwhile while leaving current good races where they are. But not in "everyone must be able to do everything at the exact same level" but more like "Race X + Class Y + Role Z" work like a charm". Choices would still be there. Races would still matter.
If you make everything the same you set a ball rolling that likely wouldn't stop there. What's next would be questions like "why don't we get rid of class restrictions bc my nord stamsorc healer is outperformed by an altmer magplar healer". You know where this is going.

I don't think racials are what completely breakes performance. Player skill is more important. I'm doing fine on a dunmer stam sorc and never had to say "damn, if I'd be running an orc instead I would have defeated that player". Note I'm not saying that some race/class/role combinations aren't performing better than others - because that is how it should be - only thing is that every race should have an excellent combination in this game.

munster1404

Anyone who agrees with concepts like evolution and genetics frankly shouldn't have any problems with racial passives.

Faulgor

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

And what I would do? Buff underwhelming races to the point they are worthwhile while leaving current good races where they are. But not in "everyone must be able to do everything at the exact same level" but more like "Race X + Class Y + Role Z" work like a charm". Choices would still be there. Races would still matter.

So you want to keep the current system and buff underused races. That's fine, and I agree that should happen, but it's an entirely different goal than increasing racial diversity for specific roles across the board, which was suggested above and my original comment replied to.

Elwendryll

I thought a bit about it. It could indeed be nice to simply separate the stats from the appearance. Like, redguard passives with a khajiit appearance. It would strictly change nothing gameplay-wise while allowing people like me to look how they want and still be on par for potentially any role. And being in opposition with that would be just mean, I guess, as it would only be a cosmetic option, and, it could even be tied to a crown store service.

But then I realized that even if I could have the redguard passives on my Khajiit, I would probably keep mine, because I'm used to build around them.

Kuramas9tails

Pink_Violinz wrote: »

Seeing as every single Elder Scrolls game thus far has had racial passives, I doubt they'd just scrap them.

I mean, racial passives didn't matter as much in previous games. ESO is a competitive field combining people from previous games who could chose whatever race they wanted and it not affect their game play. MMO's are treated differently than single player games for a reason.

Benemime

Tandor wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

MerlinPendragon wrote: »

Sorry but the OPs idea is awful and terribly selfish. It is the equivalent of saying "if I can't have it, I don't want anyone to have it."

Allow for the races without good passives to get buffed to catch up to those who do. We need more differentiation in this game... not more vanilla templates or adhering to this "make everyone equal" hippie non sense.

There is no doubt a few races (i.e. Nords) who got the short end of the stick and need a revamp, but eliminating them all together is not the way to solve this.

Are you sure you read the OP? His suggestion would lead to more varied characters and differentiation not less.

For example, when you see an Altmer character in the game, what are they playing? Did you immediately think "they could be playing a Stamina NB!", or did you think "another magicka toon". Because 99% of the time they are magicka classes.

Same with Redguard, Bosmer, and Khajiit. 99% time Stamina class.

With the dissociation of stat perks with Race, you would finally see Nord magsorcs, and Khajiit magplars, Altmer Stamblades and Bosmer magdens without thinking "man that guy has no idea what they were doing at character creation".

No it wouldn't, because the only players who worry about such things would all pick what some streamer told them was the best template, and then two things would happen. First, they'd complain as soon as the next update changed things, and second they'd complain about the lack of purpose to all the other specialisations.

not at all. A lot of players like myself don't follow streamers and Alcast builds, I like to create unique builds. Some builds/sets for example I would chose spell damage over spell penetration passive, taking advantage of % increase on spell dmg and getting penetration from something else (like a set, set + CP, or whatever). Or maybe max health passive over spell or physical resistance (if you run with skills that buffs max hp, such as structured entropy, and such things). Maybe a healing done/healing received passive instead of another offensive/defensive passive for some healers and tanks builds. So, I don't agree at all with this "lack of diversity", it's such a lie.

Priyasekarssk

ezio45 wrote: »

no dont remove racial passives just buff woodelf and nord

sincerely - 6/8 altmers

Only thing to buff is imperial. Nord & woodelf is near overpowered especially in PVP.

blnchk

I don't see how opening up all classes to all races would "kill" diversity, as some maintain. Care to elaborate?

ATomiX96

EDS604 wrote: »

ATomiX96 wrote: »

EDS604 wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

I think you mean "says everyone but nords" nords are the only ones that have sucky passives for any build.

What drug are you on? 6% extra mitigation is a petty damn good passive for tanking, 9% max health and 6% max stam also pretty darn good. Just the cold resist passive is redundant imo.. They should add +% cold dmg to it and it would be good imo

Well i guess you dont know how the nord mitigation works if you think that you get 6% extra mitigation you are WRONG.
With the way how mitigations and racials are calculated you get effectivly 1-2% mitigation from nord due to diminishing returns. Therefore Argonian ALWAYS outweights Nord passives by a mile for tanking. Hell even Imperials are better than Nords for Tanking.

So i took a look at the mitigation calculator, and the 6% is less indeed. Turns out effectively it's 1%. Still i don't see why argonian is better for tanking, is it because of the potion passive? If so, i rather have more raw stats that benefit tanking tbh, since we have meditate now, I think the potion passive shouldn't be made such a big deal of.

EDIT:

Actually considering a race change now

yea the potion passive is busted, you go from 0 mana and stamina to full with a Tri-Stat Potion

Mannix1958

AndrejLeo wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

I think you mean "says everyone but nords" nords are the only ones that have sucky passives for any build.

I really want to make a Nordic character like my first character in skyrim, when i found out they sucked to tank in ESO i was quite upset. Its just , redguard for stam, dunmer/altmer for magicka, argonian for tank

Wow my Nord Tank that has been around since launch & still holds his own would say wtf you mean suck as a tank.

Cloudless

ovinnik wrote: »

I don't see how opening up all classes to all races would "kill" diversity, as some maintain. Care to elaborate?

My guess is that all those meta-builds following magicka Dunmer & stamina Redguards running around use that argument because saying "I don't want to lose my +10% max <main attribute>" sounds a bit too petty to be stated out loud.

Ratzkifal

Buff Dunmer racial passives. We should also be able to swim faster in lava.