DK wings revamp:

ak_pvp

Wings is a dodgy ability. Its far far too weak in an multi enemy scenario, not lasting long enough or doing enough for its cost. Its got too many exemptions and too short a limit to make it worth in openworld/BGs. But at the same time it can checkmate a sorc, who, whilst having a lot of exemptions, relies on frags in a 1v1, and hits ranged magblade. As is, its either add more exeptions and make wings worse, or buff wings, and make it too strong in a 1v1, its an exceptionally hard to balance ability on either side.

So, I vote change it completely. Its no longer unique, since shield ult, and a morph of slab does similar, change it into a utility for OW, where DKs struggle the most, as a pseudo mobility skill, again, where DK struggles the most.

4s snare and root and fall damage immunity, and something small like minor protection on 1 morph and minor expedition on the other for 8s, not a long buff, but useful for slightly offloading pressure when you need to shift a little. If this is an issue, then remove the expd from chains as balance.

Inspired by the mary poppins bug, fall damage immunity would bring something new to the table. NBs have shade to port around, sorcs have streak to cross gaps. DK should be able to deal with heights as their niche. It'd be a more resistive nature of DKs, shrugging off snares, and with a flap of their wings, and ignoring fall damage either like a dragon, or like a massive bastion.

This doesn't mean 70mph tanks flapping wings storming the battlefield. but it does help to distance themselves from mist, or in some cases, FM since snare removal in some form is necessary to function, whilst giving them a completely different kind of mobility.

Vietfox

Lol, your post really made me laugh
Fall damage immunity? Haha
Nbs have shade to port around? Hahax2. it sounds like we can cast a ranged shade to port ourselves to that place.
PS: so it's ok for you to be immune to fall damage as a DK but you lose your mind if NBs ask just for ONE ranged class skill (strife) to not be reflectable?
Dude, you clearly are a fair and objective person.

ak_pvp

Vietfox wrote: »

Lol, your post really made me laugh
Fall damage immunity? Haha
Nbs have shade to port around? Hahax2. it sounds like we can cast a ranged shade to port ourselves to that place.
PS: so it's ok for you to be immune to fall damage as a DK but you lose your mind if NBs ask just for ONE ranged class skill (strife) to not be reflectable?
Dude, you clearly are a fair and objective person.

1 class skill, forgets the rest of the NB toolkit. Speaking of toolkit. Shade. Allows you to not only jump down, but also up
back to a conventionally unreachable spot like keep walls, a high rock etc. And lets you jump off things, and evade falldmg by porting at the last second, it also gives maim and some small damage (not much, but pressures block as a direct damage I think)

FD immunity would be a simple down we go thing without pain. As I tested with the bug, its not OP, but darn is it useful for evasion, which DK lacks. But it'd be a cute unique buff that fits DKs resistance strengths.

Also, what are you complaining about, this removes the reflect that both of us have problems with for different reasons, also, I said i'd be fine with cripple being unreflectable, since its pressure and a buff/debuff, but wings in general needs a buff to compete.

Vietfox

ak_pvp wrote: »

Vietfox wrote: »

Lol, your post really made me laugh
Fall damage immunity? Haha
Nbs have shade to port around? Hahax2. it sounds like we can cast a ranged shade to port ourselves to that place.
PS: so it's ok for you to be immune to fall damage as a DK but you lose your mind if NBs ask just for ONE ranged class skill (strife) to not be reflectable?
Dude, you clearly are a fair and objective person.

1 class skill, forgets the rest of the NB toolkit. Speaking of toolkit. Shade. Allows you to not only jump down, but also up
back to a conventionally unreachable spot like keep walls, a high rock etc. And lets you jump off things, and evade falldmg by porting at the last second, it also gives maim and some small damage (not much, but pressures block as a direct damage I think)

FD immunity would be a simple down we go thing without pain. As I tested with the bug, its not OP, but darn is it useful for evasion, which DK lacks. But it'd be a cute unique buff that fits DKs resistance strengths.

Also, what are you complaining about, this removes the reflect that both of us have problems with for different reasons, also, I said i'd be fine with cripple being unreflectable, since its pressure and a buff/debuff, but wings in general needs a buff to compete.

Shade's teleport fails most of the times if casted right before hitting the ground.
I never complained about dk wings, in another post which talks about the same topic i supported wings by saying "that's the price to pay if you wanna play ranged", but since the tooltip says "projectiles" and i personally think that strife is not a projectile that's why i created that discussion before.
I think wings are pretty strong already, it reflects 4 projectiles no matter what damage does each projectile (unlike shields from warden).

Nerftheforums

I think this is a really cool idea, and would make projectile builds less pissed and punished. The idea of fall damage immunity is super cool, personally I love it. 8s might be a bit to much for a expedition buff on a class designed to be slow and keep its ground, but 4s could do the job (since nothing prevents you to cast the wings again).

Solariken

Slowfall is a cool idea.

The reflect needs a minor rework - 1 reflect per target for the duration BUT unlimited targets and slightly lower cost. Anything more than 1 and it's too strong 1v1 against ranged builds IMO considering all the other tools in the kit.

2s snare immunity max for Dk IMO but I think Templar should get 4 sec immunity on Ritual of Retribution which is such a garbage morph at present.

NBrookus

Giving up reflect -- however niche and expensive it is right now -- for less fall damage? That's a bad trade.

ak_pvp

NBrookus wrote: »

Giving up reflect -- however niche and expensive it is right now -- for less fall damage? That's a bad trade.

It'd be fall immunity, and a worth while snare removal. Anything under 4s would keep me using FM or mist.

DK needs it the most, and with a decent time, since DKs unlike other classes can't stop damage and snares pouring in. @Solariken, templar and rit of ret has its issues, but using extret can offload the snares, and things that cause them too, i'd buff the purge aspect of the skill outnumbered, since its not a disputed skill like reflect. I'd say for rit of ret, make it 3 abilities and a 3s immunity to whatever was purged with better prioritization. So its potentially a better defense or a de facto snare removal.

DK is just meant to tank them abilities, so will have its snares refreshed instantly. It'd also have the third small resist/speed buff. Minor protection and expedition are both strong useful buffs, but would be moderated by a low uptime.

Savos_Saren

I'd rather not give up a reflect for a reduction in fall damage. Besides the snare immunity (which you can already get from other sources)- it would be useless 99% that you're not falling.

sly007

Solariken wrote: »

Slowfall is a cool idea.

The reflect needs a minor rework - 1 reflect per target for the duration BUT unlimited targets and slightly lower cost. Anything more than 1 and it's too strong 1v1 against ranged builds IMO considering all the other tools in the kit.

2s snare immunity max for Dk IMO but I think Templar should get 4 sec immunity on Ritual of Retribution which is such a garbage morph at present.

1 light attack and it's gone. No thank you. Wings is good with the expectation is snare removal without immunity. Give it 2 seconds of immunity and you have a skill worthy of its predecessor (4 seconds of reflecting every projectile).

InBedWithMySelf

The suggestion to add a cap per target is the way to go, without any dispute. Adding non-reflectable mechanics to some abilities is how you'll make wings not completely screw some classes, like magicka sorc. For example, making Cripple go through reflect is not just a viable change, but it's also how it used to be a long time ago. Also the change to force shock was good, making it go through reflect. On the other hand, Rune Cage is one of the most wrong ways to deal with reflect. Besides, that ability is messed up in too many other ways as it is.

No disrespect, but I have no idea where that fall damage immunity idea came from. These ideas are so simple, unrelated to balance, which is the tricky part to deal with. Zenimax, just like all human beings tend to look at these attractive looking methods, and pick them over the actual fixes and adjustments. So please, don't give zenimax these ideas.

Regarding the mobility... I dont think it's dragonknights being too slow, its the entire game being way too fast. Still, some minor expedition on all reflect morphs is still a nice idea. Zenimax can just switch the speed you get from chains and put it on wings, as a minor buff, which makes so much more sense than having it on a gapcloser.

Ragnarock41

The fall damage thing is actually pretty interesting and makes perfect sense. I like these kind of small but immersive details.
But the reflect cap per target thing, I don't see it possibly working.

ak_pvp

Well this has had a mixed bag of opinions:

A per person reflect:
I personally thought that it'd be good, if at 3 projectiles and 4s, and a needed buff to OW defense. But with all the complaining around it, and the fact the ability at its base has been over nerfed, it could be problematic. Definitely better for OW, but you'll get the group players complaining, and lots of abilities would go through anyway, making it an incredibly testy thing to balance, but it would definitely better in a 1v1

If this is to happen, there needs to be a serious consideration on what can and can't be reflected. For instance, skoria, can't since its a targetted AoE (actually a ST and an AoE function), but it can be cloaked. Bird, a definite projectile, but it can't be reflected since it is a pet, maybe deflect? 2nd party attacks like the gloom wraith or bow ult, maybe count as separate instances and reflect/deflect.

I'd change the limits to direct damage projectiles and beams, meaning bird and pulse would be reflected, but cripple and swarm wouldn't so pressure based attacks still work. Skoria would be equalized for cloak and wings, and 2nd party attacks via summons would be reflected to the summon, even if the summon is immune to the damage, it'd just damage them

Fall damage:
I played about with this a lot when the bug was out. (don't ban me pls) Its not just a niche that is only useful when falling... It allows you to fall, jump off keep walls, rocks, BG maps, etc.
That is, whilst not OP, definitely underrated for kiting and escapes, which DK needed help with. A normal reflect is around 3 LAs and 1 projectile ability, so around 8-9k of if unresisted, or about 3k after resistances, now compare that to 4s of fall damage immunity on demand, that can be a lot of damage.
(The reason it isn't OP is you can mitigate it by hoping down the hill bit by bit, just DKs can do it faster)

Snare removal:
If it is to be introduced, 2s is never enough. Its hardly enough for shuffle, and shuffle is used on builds with already high mobility, and it is used with the unchained passive. 2s would be practically nothing, and many DKs would still use FM or mist so they can actually move more than 3 paces.
Remember, DK doesn't have a way to stop inc damage that snares like cloaking or purging or streaking away. DK has always been about taking the brunt of the force, so with 2s immunity, you'd be snared again really fast.
The only way I can see that working is with a large cost reduction.

@ZOS_Wrobel

Toc de Malsvi

Per person reflect would be absurdly OP. Reflecting projectiles doesn't simply mitigate the damage it redirects that damage back at the caster. Consider in Cyrodill a DK with per person reflect could send 50, 60, 100, 200 or more Snipes, Overloads, Merciless, light attacks etc out at as many players with the cast of one skill.

To many players want to treat reflect as a purely defensive mechanic and ignore its offensive capabilities. It can be used without a CD, which means unlike shield ult it can be kept up for extended periods of time or used as needed at any time. It effectively not only removes projectile damage but sends that damage back ad infinitum.

Adding back a per person cap is equivalent to adding back infinite reflect. Unless you imagine a player getting more than 4 reflectable skills off in 4 seconds in Cyrodill. Even at 6 seconds that is a stretch outside of pure light attacks. Merciless needs 5 light attacks for proc, Snipe, Crystal Blast, and Dark Flare all have 1 second cast times. A per person reflect cap is just a sneaky way of trying to return to infinite reflects.

Solariken

A per person reflect is great as long as it's only one projectile.

1 reflect per target, infinite targets
2 sec root/snare immunity
Slowfall
Bonus phys/spell resist (OR boosted reflect dmg)
12% increase to healing
5% increase to HP recovery

That's a skill that is cool af and definitely worth using, don't listen to the naysayers.

The current 4 reflects in a 1v1 can be ridiculously OP, anyone defending this doesn't care about balance.

ak_pvp

Solariken wrote: »

A per person reflect is great as long as it's only one projectile.

1 reflect per target, infinite targets
2 sec root/snare immunity
Slowfall
Bonus phys/spell resist (OR boosted reflect dmg)
12% increase to healing
5% increase to HP recovery

That's a skill that is cool af and definitely worth using, don't listen to the naysayers.

The current 4 reflects in a 1v1 can be ridiculously OP, anyone defending this doesn't care about balance.

If it has the first 4, (others being passives) yeah that is definitely good. I was more thinking of reflect separate, in which case 1 per target is... iffy. It kind of becomes 3 different abilities though.
I was more thinking of just the immunities, and then the small buffs, and completely doing away with the reflect, but making the immunities long.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Per person reflect would be absurdly OP. Reflecting projectiles doesn't simply mitigate the damage it redirects that damage back at the caster. Consider in Cyrodill a DK with per person reflect could send 50, 60, 100, 200 or more Snipes, Overloads, Merciless, light attacks etc out at as many players with the cast of one skill.

To many players want to treat reflect as a purely defensive mechanic and ignore its offensive capabilities. It can be used without a CD, which means unlike shield ult it can be kept up for extended periods of time or used as needed at any time. It effectively not only removes projectile damage but sends that damage back ad infinitum.

Adding back a per person cap is equivalent to adding back infinite reflect. Unless you imagine a player getting more than 4 reflectable skills off in 4 seconds in Cyrodill. Even at 6 seconds that is a stretch outside of pure light attacks. Merciless needs 5 light attacks for proc, Snipe, Crystal Blast, and Dark Flare all have 1 second cast times. A per person reflect cap is just a sneaky way of trying to return to infinite reflects.

That is not how it works... at all. Old wings included a lot more abilities that could be reflected, and, reflected effects. It was a max of 8 per reflect of LA+Ability, new would 3 per person, and you might have to cast it more often if someone breaks it and continues attacking, so you have to survey who is getting to your health.

As for the reflects, its not ad infinitum. Its per person. Dealing 6k/s to a person would be broken, so would reflecting a tone of abilities back to 1 person. However dealing 6k, (or for instance 18 abilities) split across 6 targets in an AoE fashion, that isn't broken at all. The 6 targets already have the numbers advantage n attack and healing.