The main issue with frost staff taunt

Vostorn

Hello,

For those thinking about it, this is not a "remove frost staff taunt topic".

I've been tanking quite a few dungeons in pick up group and I've discovered something : if a player with a frost staff does a heavy attack, he forces the mob to attack him.

This does happen even if I have taunted the mob first and once he has taunted, I can't taunt back with puncture.

This is the main issue for me. The taunt with the frost staff seems to be harder than mine, as a true tank.

I totally understand that there are players which like the frost staff tanking. My suggestions will take it in account.

1) Taunt always override the last one. This means that frost staff heavy attacks will always force the mob to attack but the tank will be able to taunt back immediately.

2) Make standard taunt (1H&S or undaunted) stronger than the ice staff taunt.

3) Prioritize the taunt so that the player with more health (current or max) will taunt over the others, even if the others try to taunt.

All these suggestions have their pros and their cons
1) will allow a frost mage to save the tank *** but the tank will have to taunt every time a frost mage heavy attacks.
2) makes sense since someone with a standard taunt will mostly be a dedicated tank. Frost mage can't save a near-dead tank however.
3) is a bit between 1 and 2.
- If base on current health, it allows a frost mage to save a near-dead tank but can be a problem if the frost mage heavy attacks just when the tank got hardly struck.
- If base on max health, it's more like case 1 and it allows some flexibility before starting a trial to choose who will be the main tank. This, can be problem however if a main tank build doesn't have much life.

I personnaly like the case 2. It's quite easy and if there is someone using a standard taunt, frost mage shouldn't be tanking. If there is no tank, frost mages can tank as they please.


TLDR : True tanks should be able to taunt over ice staff taunt.

Royaji

Or we can not fiddle with mechanics and hammer the idea that "ice staff = tank weapon" in people heads. Ice staff hero taunts the boss from you? Take a deap breath, wait for the boss's next heavy attack to one shot the hero and taunt the boss back. One day they will learn.

Lysette

What is a true tank in a game, where everyone can play as he/she wants?- Just take it as it is - and if you want a stronger taunt, use an ice staff.

Stroggnonimus

What you're describing is called "overtaunt". It happens when mob is taunted by any source multiple times over very short period of time. It's not a problem of ice staves, if you have 2 tanks with pierce armor, this will still happen. And tanks in trials have to be especially aware of this.

This is just a game mechanic that you think to think about. Scaling with max health etc. makes no sense, because most trials require two tanks, and they MUST taunt mobs from each other, so with what you're suggesting, HoF or MoL has to be completely reworked.

Now ice taunt being lower "priority" than other two, could be solid idea.

Sergykid

and in trials there'll be 12 frost staff users and the boss will die from brain damage

Aluneth

Royaji wrote: »

Or we can not fiddle with mechanics and hammer the idea that "ice staff = tank weapon" in people heads. Ice staff hero taunts the boss from you? Take a deap breath, wait for the boss's next heavy attack to one shot the hero and taunt the boss back. One day they will learn.

This.

Run some DPS skills on your backbar and a staff/dual wield/two handed. If someone taunts with an ice staff, let them do the tanking and start DPSing.

Malacthulhu

One of the very few reasons I might kick someone from group in conjunction with not communicating with everyone else to sort it out.

Artim_X

1) As Stroggnonimus mentioned it's a game mechanic. This can occur from any other taunts being done like inner rage or someone using the tormentor set. Although for me personally I think it would be cool if the player that is assigned the tank role is always given taunt priority over others regardless of the taunt they choose to use.

2) I don't agree with this point, since there are many different ways to play a tank in this game specifically in regards to normal dungeons where you are more able to use a hybrid tank/dps that holds bosses/big enemies in place and provide more damage to the groups overall damage. For instance, it would not be ideal for a low level who is assigned the dps role who uses One-Handed and Shield to do damage (yup this happens) to override the actual tank's taunt with puncture and start running around wondering why the boss is following them.

3) As you mentioned the main tank might not have much health to begin with so I can't really agree with this especially in regards to dungeons where one can queue multiple roles and not realize that they should be doing damage instead of tanking (dps player using One-Handed and Shield with 30k health). Now there are scenarios where I think a more traditional tank is ideal (trials/vet dlc dungeons), but frost staff tanking is play style one can perform effectively if built right. I have a frost staff tank build that has successfully tanked all the normal dungeons despite not having as much health as a traditional tank. It uses damage shields to keep me alive, provides group utility, and it provides more dps than you would expect from a dps player in normal mode. However, when someone messes up my taunt rotation with their own taunt it messes up the flow of battle, which is why if something were to change in the game I would like for the person that is queued as tank to always have taunt priority over players in other roles. In trials tanks should be able to override a dps player who for some strange reason is using a taunt, but the concept of over taunting should occur if the other player queued as a tank tries to taunt when the boss is already taunted.

NordSwordnBoard

The main issue with frost staff tanking for me is the charge up time required compared to inner fire. Puncture, chains, and talons is too efficient in comparison for me to enjoy frost staff tanking.

Gallagher563

Frost Staffs would actually be usable dps weapons if taunt from skills was given priority. So if this was true no matter how many times you heavy attack on a Frost staff you would never pull agro as long as their is a puncture or inner fire on the target. I like this compromise.

Merlin13KAGL

• Have them respec the passive that causes this.
• Have them switch to another weapon.
• Have them not heavy attack.
• Have them communicate with the main tank (assuming they are an offtank) so you're not grabbing each others' aggro.
• Or, last option, let them keep aggro long enough to die and move along.

The very same thing can happen with inner fire and pierce armor, if used incorrectly.

Sergykid wrote: »

and in trials there'll be 12 frost staff users and the boss will die from brain damage

Nah, the boss becomes taunt immune and proceeds to wreck the group, presumably remedying the "DPS is taunting the boss" issue, post haste.

Sergykid

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

and in trials there'll be 12 frost staff users and the boss will die from brain damage

Nah, the boss becomes taunt immune and proceeds to wreck the group, presumably remedying the "DPS is taunting the boss" issue, post haste.

i know, i just imagined the scenario where "the stronger taunt keeps" so the boss would be assaulted by "lower priority taunts" not knowing which way to go

Gallagher563

The game should be laid out so that it checks first for skills and the then for Frost staffs. The first skill taunt runs the full duration and can't be overriden and even if a Frost staff pulls agro the second a skill taunt is used the agro should go to the taunt skill user.

Marginis

I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask that the most recent taunt, or the tank's taunt, takes priority over any other existing taunt. Isn't that kind of the tank's job, to take the aggro off of the other players? That's like, the defining aspect of their role. Having frost staff taunt be stronger than other taunts just because it's an ice staff doesn't seem to make much sense.

Gallagher563

I am saying the exact opposite. Skills that taunt should always have priority and you should never be able to over taunt a skill using a frost staff.

kichwas

Royaji wrote: »

Or we can not fiddle with mechanics and hammer the idea that "ice staff = tank weapon" in people heads.

I'm with this. And I'm one of those people who has run through a dungeon with a frost staff while on a DPS and having people scream at me and not knowing why...

I think if anything needs to change... it's that if you have the weapon equipped, your dungeon que option should be limited to tank. That would have made me, as a newbie when I did that, realize what I was doing BEFORE causing my group such a headache...

As a newbie at the time, when my sorcerer died for like the 5th time, I just assumed the tank and healer we had sucked... So don't expect people to 'realize it' just because they get one-shot... In the chaos of fights new players especially can miss what happened and why...

The info that frost staff does this is hidden in the passives of destructive staff... and at the time my then newbie self was just putting points into ALL the passives to make 'the best sorcerer I could' and then equipping whatever staff I had with the highest level to 'be the best DPS I could'... and then totally unaware that I had turned myself into a 'tank-griefer' until I had a chance to pause during that run and read through things a bit more...


I don't think any mechanics should change... I just think there should be a clear indicator to people so they have to do this 'on purpose'...

Psyonico

Frost staff doesn't have a stronger taunt, it's over taunting like another person said. Too prevent people from just taunting the boss back and forth the mechanic prevents someone from taking aggro via taunt after they lost it from another person's taunt.

SugaComa

Frost staff don't have a taunt at all if you don't take the passive do they ... So simply avoid that passive you don't want to taunt but want the damage shield

Sordidfairytale

Instead of a heavy attack with the Frost Staff taunting an enemy, it should be the Destructive Clench (morph of destructive touch) skill with a frost staff equipped. Using that skill while holding a frost staff would do three things: taunt the enemy, apply Major Breach and Major Fracture, and reduce the cost of the ability by 25% It would no longer immobilize the target.


Frost DPS can now use the heavy attack as a means of regaining magika and frost tanks have a niche skill in line with the SnB taunt, though you could argue it needs to be available earlier in the skill line. But at least it's not an excruciatingly long wind up for a taunt.

SugaComa

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

Instead of a heavy attack with the Frost Staff taunting an enemy, it should be the Destructive Clench (morph of destructive touch) skill with a frost staff equipped. Using that skill while holding a frost staff would do three things: taunt the enemy, apply Major Breach and Major Fracture, and reduce the cost of the ability by 25% It would no longer immobilize the target.


Frost DPS can now use the heavy attack as a means of regaining magika and frost tanks have a niche skill in line with the SnB taunt, though you could argue it needs to be available earlier in the skill line. But at least it's not an excruciatingly long wind up for a taunt.

No no no ....

I like frost reach for PvP ... Seriously if you're going to use a frost staff as a none tank just stop taking the passive that makes a heavy attack taunt

Merlin13KAGL

Gallagher563 wrote: »

The game should be laid out so that it checks first for skills and the then for Frost staffs. The first skill taunt runs the full duration and can't be overriden and even if a Frost staff pulls agro the second a skill taunt is used the agro should go to the taunt skill user.

Marginis wrote: »

I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask that the most recent taunt, or the tank's taunt, takes priority over any other existing taunt. Isn't that kind of the tank's job, to take the aggro off of the other players? That's like, the defining aspect of their role. Having frost staff taunt be stronger than other taunts just because it's an ice staff doesn't seem to make much sense.

And in situations where there is more than one tank, and the tank needs the other tank to take over aggro, for one of a dozen reasons?

As a general rule, you don't accidentally taunt It require an intentional fire of an intentional skill. If you're paying attention as a tank, this will rarely happen (when it does, it's usually because of a targeting issue). If you're not a tank, you should probably be considering WTH you have a taunt on your bar in the first place.

(vDSA, vAA, healer/dps with a taunt are tanking, to an extent, in those very specific situations)

TL;DR; The game is clunky enough as it is. It doesn't need to be doing double checks on whether it thinks someone intended to fire a skill. If I press the damn button, I intended to do that action.

Koensol

As a wise man in my guild once said.. "You aggro it, you tank it". It works every time.

Sordidfairytale

SugaComa wrote: »

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

Instead of a heavy attack with the Frost Staff taunting an enemy, it should be the Destructive Clench (morph of destructive touch) skill with a frost staff equipped. Using that skill while holding a frost staff would do three things: taunt the enemy, apply Major Breach and Major Fracture, and reduce the cost of the ability by 25% It would no longer immobilize the target.


Frost DPS can now use the heavy attack as a means of regaining magika and frost tanks have a niche skill in line with the SnB taunt, though you could argue it needs to be available earlier in the skill line. But at least it's not an excruciatingly long wind up for a taunt.

No no no ....

I like frost reach for PvP ... Seriously if you're going to use a frost staff as a none tank just stop taking the passive that makes a heavy attack taunt

You use Destructive Clench? In pvp?

Night_Child

It's ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that most people (not ALL), but definitely MOST people on this thread either cannot read, do not read, have closed minds, or do not know how to play the game.

Frost staves were NEVER tanking weapons. They were DPS weapons that COULD BE CONVERTED TO A TANKING WEAPON VIA A PASSIVE. That small piece of information was so overlooked as was everything else, it made the death of frost staves as they are underused weapons. Smh.

zvavi

Holy mother of necros this thread is not even relevant anymore.

Taleof2Cities

Next time find a recent thread on the topic, @Night_Child ... before adding your exulted "bolded CAPS" to a discussion that happened more than two (2) years ago.

Psiion

Greetings all,

Seeing as this thread is quite old and may contain outdated information, we have decided to go ahead and close it down. If anyone would like to continue discussion on this topic, please feel free to start an updated thread on this subject.