Trader/AH Sorting Poll

Avalon

I know, we have a ton of these threads about the Guild Trader system, whether to change to AH, or some other change, and add-ons this or that, etc. But, in all of these discussions, it seems to be fairly unclear, and confuses the issue, about what platforms people are on while having the opinions they have. Perhaps it could shed light on the entire conversation, and help us to better understand each other's points of view?

So, the poll is: Do you think the Guild Trader system needs changing, and what platform do you play on?

Iluvrien

Unclear. I think the Trader system needs changing in that I think the UI needs to be redesigned to include the search features in something like Awesome Guild Store... however I do not think that the Trader system needs to be changed into an AH.

Are you asking about any changes to the system (UI etc.), or a change to the system itself (Trader to AH)?

Smasherx74

I don't play ESO.

Guild traders are fine I guess. Smaller trade guilds like mine got stomped on during T1. The 10k gold increase for a trader was fine, but even the most obscure trader locations prices inflated over 100%

It's absurd, now theres no way to hold a trader up every week without paying out of pocket unless you demand gold from your guild. To generate enough sales that you get 150k-1m takes a lot of people selling a lot of stuff consistently. Not only that but on out of place traders, you're much less likely to actually make those big sales that you'd make like they were nothing in a major city. The costs of outbidding people do not match the location's sales in my experience, even when you have a guild store full of mats and sets to be sold. It seems the abundance of gold people have laying around has contributed to this. When you have 22million gold sitting in your bank, you can afford to go out of pocket for months without any problem, then once you hit major city trader with sufficient item listings then you may be able to turn over a profit without forcing your members to contribute gold.

I don't have any solution for this, aside from reverting to pre-T1 or maybe increasing the number of trader locations.

AlnilamE

No. I play on PC/Mac.

Iluvrien wrote: »

Unclear. I think the Trader system needs changing in that I think the UI needs to be redesigned to include the search features in something like Awesome Guild Store... however I do not think that the Trader system needs to be changed into an AH.

Are you asking about any changes to the system (UI etc.), or a change to the system itself (Trader to AH)?

Pretty much this. The UI needs work to make things easier to find in each store for people who don't/can't use addons.

That does not translate into turning it into an Auction House

efduncanub17_ESO

No. I play on PC/Mac.

for PC with addons etc is no problem on Console its a nightmare

Avalon

Yes. I play on Xbox.

Iluvrien wrote: »

Unclear. I think the Trader system needs changing in that I think the UI needs to be redesigned to include the search features in something like Awesome Guild Store... however I do not think that the Trader system needs to be changed into an AH.

Are you asking about any changes to the system (UI etc.), or a change to the system itself (Trader to AH)?

Any changes. The difficulties in the discussions are that there is a very adamant group opposing ANY changes to the system, while those who want changes are a very diverse crowd. That diversity can be found in a separate poll here

Which is why for this poll, all I am asking is yes/no and platform. If you want any form of change, then the answer is yes. If you think the system is just fine, and nothing needs changed at all, then, the answer is no.

Avalon

Yes. I play on Xbox.

So far, the numbers are pretty informative... wondering if the trend will continue.

idk

Avalon wrote: »

So far, the numbers are pretty informative... wondering if the trend will continue.

The polls is informative only in telling you about who both visited this thread and who chose to vote in the poll.
Statistically speaking it does not provide useful information.

Edit: Forum polls like this are considered entertainment value only.

Avalon

Yes. I play on Xbox.

idk wrote: »

Avalon wrote: »

So far, the numbers are pretty informative... wondering if the trend will continue.

The polls is informative only in telling you about who both visited this thread and who chose to vote in the poll.
Statistically speaking it does not provide useful information.

Edit: Forum polls like this are considered entertainment value only.

Then, by all means, show us how to make an informative one. You keep saying you need proof, we keep trying to provide it, you keep tossing every attempt, no matter how well accepted by anyone else, out the window. So, show us how to make a poll that actually WILL provide proof by your definition, because the more you post comments like that, the more it shows that you have no interest in actually discussing anything or even accepting proof of any sort, and only want to hold to your biased opinion.

The reason I said this poll is informative, is that looking only at console players, the result is 100%, it needs to change, somehow, even if only adding a search bar or something. PC/Mac players seem divided by their opinions. This is exactly what I suspected, and have told you several times: PC/Mac has add-ons that make the system work. Console players do not. That's why console players say it needs changed, because we don't have a way to cover up the flaws and make the system work. That means it needs changed, even if only on console, I don't care, and neither would anyone else on console. But, just because you don't think it does, does not mean you are right, and, you also have a narrow scope, probably play on PC or Mac, too, so you have add-ons.

But, if you will not accept what everyone else would think is proof, even if only a tiny shred of it, then, you need to stop commenting about this subject. You have an opinion, based on nothing other than it is your opinion, you refuse to prove your opinion to make it fact, and you refuse to accept anyone else's opinions (even when lumped together), and refuse to accept all forms of proof that are available to players to provide. That makes ALL comments from you 'not constructive' and mods delete those types of comments all the time because they add nothing to the conversation. If you continue, I will log all of your comments, report all of them, and submit you for review as a nonconstructive forums member that only causes problems. I am certain they would love to look at that history, and see that you only make conversations about this subject worse, and add zero to making them better.

I keep trying to provide you with some form of proof, but you will never accept anything that changes your opinion.

AlnilamE

No. I play on PC/Mac.

Avalon wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Unclear. I think the Trader system needs changing in that I think the UI needs to be redesigned to include the search features in something like Awesome Guild Store... however I do not think that the Trader system needs to be changed into an AH.

Are you asking about any changes to the system (UI etc.), or a change to the system itself (Trader to AH)?

Any changes. The difficulties in the discussions are that there is a very adamant group opposing ANY changes to the system, while those who want changes are a very diverse crowd. That diversity can be found in a separate poll here

Which is why for this poll, all I am asking is yes/no and platform. If you want any form of change, then the answer is yes. If you think the system is just fine, and nothing needs changed at all, then, the answer is no.

No, most people only oppose turning the system into an Auction House, which includes suggestions to integrate TTC into the game for example. Most people agree that the UI needs improvement. But that doesn't fundamentally change the system

Avalon

Yes. I play on Xbox.

ZOS_KatP wrote: »

Hi all,

We've removed a few comments for being off-topic. Please keep your comments constructive and on-topic to the discussion at hand. And as always:

If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead.

Happy weekend!

@idk

In case you want to test things. We try to have a constructive, meaningful conversation, which you consistently bomb with nonconstructive intractable comments that have no support or proof to back them. That makes your comments violations. Please desist. If you have something useful to add, please do. If you are willing to actually discuss, not just hammer out the exact same nonconstructive comments, no matter how anyone attempts to 'appease' your request for proof? Then, cool. If all you are going to do is add comments that do nothing but drag conversations down and bait people into p*ssing contests? Then, time to report you. Judging by your comments the last few threads on this subject? I figure everyone (at least me) is going to have a lot of reports to fill out soon...

But, I figured I should let you see a direct quote from a mod about their opinions on nonconstructive comments. They may be on-topic, but they add nothing after the first time you stated your opinion, and I think everyone knows it by now. The rest of us are willing to actually discuss and debate, work out ways to do things, what would work, what wouldn't, etc. Would be awesome if you could do that too.

Avalon

Yes. I play on Xbox.

AlnilamE wrote: »

Avalon wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Unclear. I think the Trader system needs changing in that I think the UI needs to be redesigned to include the search features in something like Awesome Guild Store... however I do not think that the Trader system needs to be changed into an AH.

Are you asking about any changes to the system (UI etc.), or a change to the system itself (Trader to AH)?

Any changes. The difficulties in the discussions are that there is a very adamant group opposing ANY changes to the system, while those who want changes are a very diverse crowd. That diversity can be found in a separate poll here

Which is why for this poll, all I am asking is yes/no and platform. If you want any form of change, then the answer is yes. If you think the system is just fine, and nothing needs changed at all, then, the answer is no.

No, most people only oppose turning the system into an Auction House, which includes suggestions to integrate TTC into the game for example. Most people agree that the UI needs improvement. But that doesn't fundamentally change the system

I never mentioned size of groups, only the existence. There IS a group that refuses all changes. No idea how many people, but they do exist. And, yes, I agree, MOST people DO think something needs changed, even if it is only a tiny thing, like adding a search bar. But, there is a group of at least 2 people that rejects all changes.

AlnilamE

No. I play on PC/Mac.

Avalon wrote: »

ZOS_KatP wrote: »

Hi all,

We've removed a few comments for being off-topic. Please keep your comments constructive and on-topic to the discussion at hand. And as always:

If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead.

Happy weekend!

In case you want to test things. We try to have a constructive, meaningful conversation, which you consistently bomb with nonconstructive intractable comments that have no support or proof to back them. That makes your comments violations. Please desist. If you have something useful to add, please do. If you are willing to actually discuss, not just hammer out the exact same nonconstructive comments, no matter how anyone attempts to 'appease' your request for proof? Then, cool. If all you are going to do is add comments that do nothing but drag conversations down and bait people into p*ssing contests? Then, time to report you. Judging by your comments the last few threads on this subject? I figure everyone (at least me) is going to have a lot of reports to fill out soon...

But, I figured I should let you see a direct quote from a mod about their opinions on nonconstructive comments. They may be on-topic, but they add nothing after the first time you stated your opinion, and I think everyone knows it by now. The rest of us are willing to actually discuss and debate, work out ways to do things, what would work, what wouldn't, etc. Would be awesome if you could do that too.

How is my comment nonconstructive?

Avalon

Yes. I play on Xbox.

AlnilamE wrote: »

Avalon wrote: »

ZOS_KatP wrote: »

Hi all,

We've removed a few comments for being off-topic. Please keep your comments constructive and on-topic to the discussion at hand. And as always:

If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead.

Happy weekend!

In case you want to test things. We try to have a constructive, meaningful conversation, which you consistently bomb with nonconstructive intractable comments that have no support or proof to back them. That makes your comments violations. Please desist. If you have something useful to add, please do. If you are willing to actually discuss, not just hammer out the exact same nonconstructive comments, no matter how anyone attempts to 'appease' your request for proof? Then, cool. If all you are going to do is add comments that do nothing but drag conversations down and bait people into p*ssing contests? Then, time to report you. Judging by your comments the last few threads on this subject? I figure everyone (at least me) is going to have a lot of reports to fill out soon...

But, I figured I should let you see a direct quote from a mod about their opinions on nonconstructive comments. They may be on-topic, but they add nothing after the first time you stated your opinion, and I think everyone knows it by now. The rest of us are willing to actually discuss and debate, work out ways to do things, what would work, what wouldn't, etc. Would be awesome if you could do that too.

How is my comment nonconstructive?

It isn't... I was commenting about IDK, and we happened to post at roughly same time, so my comment ended up right behind yours, instead of right behind my last post quoting IDK. My apologies for the confusion, I will edit, and add an @ to fix lol Your comments are great, continue!

idk

@Avalon

My comment is not a knock against you. The means to do valid polling does not exist in the forums. It come down to sampling and you do not have control over the sampling.

My comment applies to each and every poll in this or any forum. I would explain further but it is not an exciting subject unless one likes numbers.

Avalon

Yes. I play on Xbox.

idk wrote: »

@Avalon

My comment is not a knock against you. The means to do valid polling does not exist in the forums. It come down to sampling and you do not have control over the sampling.

My comment applies to each and every poll in this or any forum. I would explain further but it is not an exciting subject unless one likes numbers.

The difficulty remains that you require proof that cannot be provided, not by anyone else, and not by you. You claim the truth is self-evident, that I can log into ESO and just SEE that what you say is true. While I claim the exact opposite. You require proof that you yourself cannot provide. Which renders every opinion of yours no better than anyone else's. You can claim that the game has a healthy economy, and many of us do not see even a shred of truth to that. So, we work with what we DO have, and that is the sampling we have available HERE. Yes, I realize it is not 100% representative, but, it is a fairly random sampling of the whole, so it has to be somewhat representative.

Your argument that polls here are not a good representation, is mirrored in real life, and we do the same all the time, and use that information often. There are better ones, granted, but we have to work with what we have available. And, by the numbers above, every person on console thinks it needs fixed in some fashion. So, please, desist in saying everything is perfectly fine, because it obviously is not (at least not in the players' minds on console, which is where I am, so it is where I argue FROM) If all you know is PC or Mac, then your opinions on whether it works on console do not even exist or matter. The bad part is that based on everything I have seen, looks like even on PC/Mac add-ons/outside websites are just about mandatory to make the Guild Trader system work better than in the most basic of ways.

Do you have something constructive to add to that discussion? Because I see that you make well-stated and thought out arguments in OTHER debates, but for some reason in this topic, your comments are just a tad better than trolling and baiting or at least that is how they read, because you don't actually give any form of evidence or anything to back up your opinion, only stating it is what it is, and I like it, you should just get used to it. That is ok stated once, but in one of the conversations, you stated it 3-4 times, and each post was nearly identical in what it said. If you have some sort of evidence showing that economy is great on PC/Mac, great, give it, because maybe PC/Mac are great! I don't know, I am not on there.

But, on console? It is a disaster. Do you have an explanation for why? Maybe that would lead to a constructive discussion?

idk

You want proof, I will offer you information that I expect can be understood without having a background in statistics.

https://austinresearch.co.uk/the-importance-of-representative-samples-and-how-to-get-them/

The gist is that in these forums one cannot define the sample to begin which is the start of the issue. It is really that simple.

You can try to be cute with your wordy replies but it does not add credibility to your position on this poll.

If you would like more information on sampling I can provide it.

The rest of what you have stated is irrelevant to the sampling and for the most part the focus of the discussion of this thread.

EDIT: btw, that article covers much more than what is needed and is only intended to give an idea of what I am speaking of. Hard to find information that is more street talk vs getting technical.

AuldWolf

Yes. I play on PC/Mac.

idk wrote: »

Avalon wrote: »

So far, the numbers are pretty informative... wondering if the trend will continue.

The polls is informative only in telling you about who both visited this thread and who chose to vote in the poll.
Statistically speaking it does not provide useful information.

Edit: Forum polls like this are considered entertainment value only.

Pretty much. I've seen a study done of how many people who play online games actually visit the forums and it was a surprisingly tiny number, much less than even I actually anticipated. I think most just don't see it as part of their enjoyment of the game. The only poll you could really trust is one that ZeniMax themself highlights and links to from the launcher.

Forums tend to be heavily weighted toward posters who're hardcore/PvP and sometimes more manipulative in nature, attempting to affect change for their minorities at the expense of everyone else. The squeaky wheel and all that. Sadly, I've seen some MMOs fall for this, then die. Too many. I just wonder what they were doing instead of looking at the numbers of how many of their players actually visit the forums, and how representative those numbers are.

The forum sample size isn't indicative of anything. It's tiny, it's also weighted towards certain demographics.

So polls like this really are pointless, unfortunately.

idk

AuldWolf wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Avalon wrote: »

So far, the numbers are pretty informative... wondering if the trend will continue.

The polls is informative only in telling you about who both visited this thread and who chose to vote in the poll.
Statistically speaking it does not provide useful information.

Edit: Forum polls like this are considered entertainment value only.

Pretty much. I've seen a study done of how many people who play online games actually visit the forums and it was a surprisingly tiny number, much less than even I actually anticipated. I think most just don't see it as part of their enjoyment of the game. The only poll you could really trust is one that ZeniMax themself highlights and links to from the launcher.

Forums tend to be heavily weighted toward posters who're hardcore/PvP and sometimes more manipulative in nature, attempting to affect change for their minorities at the expense of everyone else. The squeaky wheel and all that. Sadly, I've seen some MMOs fall for this, then die. Too many. I just wonder what they were doing instead of looking at the numbers of how many of their players actually visit the forums, and how representative those numbers are.

The forum sample size isn't indicative of anything. It's tiny, it's also weighted towards certain demographics.

So polls like this really are pointless, unfortunately.

This is the biggest issue that forum polls can only reach those that come to the forums, let alone those notice the thread to begin with.

Being that it is difficult to say those that frequent the forums are representative of the player base it is even more difficult to say an forum poll is accurate even those there is no control over the sample or sample size.

Basically, there is no way demonstrate the poll is representative of anything.

After all, if OP wants to state the poll representative of anything he must first defend and demonstrate what it is representative of.

Avalon

Yes. I play on Xbox.

But, by that, then the forums are pointless anyways. Because any discussion that is to be had is only with a skewed sampling by default, and then serves no real purpose other than to chat. The only parts of the forums that serve a purpose other than wasting time, is the patch notes/updates, and tech support sections, as those are in direct contact with ZOS, otherwise, it is just smoke being blown up one orifice or another.

So, any thread that attempts to discuss anything real is fooling themselves, and should not exist. I like to think that some of these threads actually effect change in some way, or at least get a ball rolling that might make things better. Again, the Trader situation, some players want a drastic change, some don't want anything to change... most want some form of change, but tiny ones, like adding a search bar. That isn't a huge concession, and would do wonders for making people more receptive to this system. Is that really bad to ask for?

Chadak

Yes. I play on PC/Mac.

I really don't enjoy the current market structure at all. I am perpetually left wishing we had just a stock-standard game-wide auction house.

Unpopular view for some, I know, but there it remains.

Beardimus

No. I play on Xbox.

efduncanub17_ESO wrote: »

for PC with addons etc is no problem on Console its a nightmare

That's not true. Plenty of folks ate happy with the trader system on console once they put the effort in. Sure when you first land it takes a bit to learn it. But used right the GT system is pretty efficient.

Half the time on console people don't use it right. The schlep about daily for things. The amount of people ive helped who are now happy with the system.

Uviryth

No. I play on PC/Mac.

Its fine with Addons. As for consoles I honestly dont care. I always thought mmorpg`s on a console are an abomination, even more so if they are also available on PC.

GarnetFire17

Why would you even want to take this poll because none of this even matters? If people care so much about having a 1 central auction house there are plenty of other games that have that.

idk

Avalon wrote: »

But, by that, then the forums are pointless anyways. Because any discussion that is to be had is only with a skewed sampling by default, and then serves no real purpose other than to chat. The only parts of the forums that serve a purpose other than wasting time, is the patch notes/updates, and tech support sections, as those are in direct contact with ZOS, otherwise, it is just smoke being blown up one orifice or another.

So, any thread that attempts to discuss anything real is fooling themselves, and should not exist. I like to think that some of these threads actually effect change in some way, or at least get a ball rolling that might make things better. Again, the Trader situation, some players want a drastic change, some don't want anything to change... most want some form of change, but tiny ones, like adding a search bar. That isn't a huge concession, and would do wonders for making people more receptive to this system. Is that really bad to ask for?

The two ideas are not comparable.

A forum thread does not really purport itself as the view of the player base or even the forum base, but only those who participate.

Polls on the other hand are considered to provide a snap shot of the opinion of a group which in the case of the forum polls would probably be the forum goers or player base, but there is no control over the sampling to properly be able to define it as such.

And as far as Zos goes, the do read the forums. Clearly a well organized thought is likely to keep their attention longer than disorganized. They do consider our ideas and thoughts but of course they have ideas and thoughts of their own. I could go into more on this, but I expect this is enough to convey the message.

However, Zos understands the forum polls sampling cannot be said to represent an group since there is no control. This does not even get into bias in preparing the questions, answers and any commentary.

I am not suggesting you put any biased into the poll. I am not suggesting you did insufficient work in preparing the poll. It has nothing to do with you.

I am merely stating the tool for creating a forum poll is a flawed method for obtaining the information you seek. It is why I stated forum polls are only for entertainment value.

agegarton

No. I play on PC/Mac.

I said "no", as I believe the Guild Trader system is pretty well executed and I dare say it achieves its objective, which is probably linked more to having players utilise as much of the map as possible rather than making selling/buying "one-click" easy. That said, there are one or two minor tweaks that I would like to see implemented sooner rather than later:-

1. Let us buy an extra Guild slot - many guilds now specialise and I hate to have to drop a guild.
2. Implement some improved search / sorting into the native Guild Store interface.
3. For Traders, provide more feedback during/following the bid process. For example, if we get an email saying we were unsuccessful, tell us by what percentage, or something similar. As it stands, the process is a bit too blind.

I think it would also be interesting to see a few more trade kiosks, especially out on the roads etc. The increased supply might go some way to combating the incredible price wars we see especially on PC.

I don't support wholesale (is that a pun.....) change, though.

GarnetFire17

The poll is unnecessary. It's past the point on this issue of people's opinions mattering. The game is 4 years old. They aren't going to just scrap an entire economy system that people have invested hundreds of hours in over so long a time. There may be a lot of people that want ESO's economy to be just like every other MMO's economy because that is what they like, but those malcontents would be nothing compared to the poopstorm that would be created if they scrapped the current system. So there is no longer reason for anyone to even suggest, hint, try to get to people to consider a central auction house and therefore no reason to know anyone's background. So why do these silly pointless threads keep showing up? It's just trying to beat everyone over the head with "We want 1 auction house." That strategy isn't going to work either. All it is doing is trying to pick a fight with those enjoying ESO and it's guild trader system that will be in places as long there is ESO.

Varana

I would have voted "no" just for one reason: I do not, not at all, have my vote being interpreted as "being in favour of abolishing the guild trader system", and I strongly suspect that that is where this whole thing is going.
"Changes" can be everything from fixing a few bugs to overhauling the complete system. "See, most people want change so the current system is bad!" seems to be an obvious interpretation while the poll says nothing of that sort.
It's frankly one of the worse polls on the issue, and that's saying something.

Avalon

Yes. I play on Xbox.

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

The poll is unnecessary. It's past the point on this issue of people's opinions mattering. The game is 4 years old. They aren't going to just scrap an entire economy system that people have invested hundreds of hours in over so long a time. There may be a lot of people that want ESO's economy to be just like every other MMO's economy because that is what they like, but those malcontents would be nothing compared to the poopstorm that would be created if they scrapped the current system. So there is no longer reason for anyone to even suggest, hint, try to get to people to consider a central auction house and therefore no reason to know anyone's background. So why do these silly pointless threads keep showing up? It's just trying to beat everyone over the head with "We want 1 auction house." That strategy isn't going to work either. All it is doing is trying to pick a fight with those enjoying ESO and it's guild trader system that will be in places as long there is ESO.

Varana wrote: »

I would have voted "no" just for one reason: I do not, not at all, have my vote being interpreted as "being in favour of abolishing the guild trader system", and I strongly suspect that that is where this whole thing is going.
"Changes" can be everything from fixing a few bugs to overhauling the complete system. "See, most people want change so the current system is bad!" seems to be an obvious interpretation while the poll says nothing of that sort.
It's frankly one of the worse polls on the issue, and that's saying something.

Actually, no, if you look at the other poll, the vast majority only want minor changes, like adding a search bar, or adding the things the add-ons do into the game so there would be no need of add-ons. MOST people do not want the AH, or recognize it would be impossible to implement (due to programming issues), so they try to work with what the game WOULD allow. So, by voting yes or no, does not in any way mean you want the AH system. It just means that you believe the system is perfectly fine, or you believe it needs something changed.

Marginis

No. I play on Xbox.

This poll is difficult to answer - and to get informative results from - because the answers are all black and white. For example, I do want to see the trading system changed, but I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that we need a centralized trading system, aka an auction house. Personally, I decided to vote to what I perceived was the spirit of the OP's post, whether or not ESO should get an auction house-type system, rather than going on by just the exact words - because, let's face it, I don't think anyone truthfully wouldn't change ANYTHING about the trading system as it is.

Avalon

Yes. I play on Xbox.

Marginis wrote: »

Personally, I decided to vote to what I perceived was the spirit of the OP's post

Avalon wrote: »

I know, we have a ton of these threads about the Guild Trader system, whether to change to AH, or some other change, and add-ons this or that, etc.

Avalon wrote: »

Any changes. The difficulties in the discussions are that there is a very adamant group opposing ANY changes to the system, while those who want changes are a very diverse crowd. That diversity can be found in a separate poll here

Which is why for this poll, all I am asking is yes/no and platform. If you want any form of change, then the answer is yes. If you think the system is just fine, and nothing needs changed at all, then, the answer is no.

I attempted to make it as clear as possible that Yes only means that you think 'some' change needs made, not wide sweeping massive changes, or a complete overhaul, which is completely ridiculous. So, I don't know how you believe the 'spirit' is that I want the Auction House...