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Undo and Battle Roar

Ivan04
Ivan04
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ltimate ability "Undo" from the psijic skillline doesn't seem to give resources in accordance with the Battle Roar dragonknight passive. It is confusing - nothing in the tooltip or patch nofes suggests that it should be so. I would appreciate some clarification or a fix to this ability.
Edited by Ivan04 on May 16, 2018 8:12AM
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    From the ultimates design it’s consequent. You get the values from 4 seconds before. Having Battle Roar apply on top would be too strong.
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar
    All chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • RoyJade
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    Working as intended, this ultimate is not mean to be used with battle roar by design.
    Whenever is fine or sad is a matter of point of view, I personally feel sorry for my two DK but I can understand the reasoning.
  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
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    If it makes you feel better, consider that it grants you the resources from Battle Roar first.

    Then it does what exactly what the tooltip indicates it should, second?

    It's one of the few things in game actually "working as intended."
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

    IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
    Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS
  • Aedaryl
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    If battleroar could work with Undo (giving the BR ressource on top of the previous ressourced 4s before) it would be extremely overpowered.

    Stop trying to be OP. It won't work.
  • Qbiken
    Qbiken
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    When I first read about undo I thought about the Battle Roar passive. Will you have the amount of resources you had 4 seconds ago, or will you gain the resources from using the ultimate? I guess I know the answer. While I understand why it works this way, ZOS and their consistency (sarcasm) with things amazes me :/
  • Carbonised
    Carbonised
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    It's bad game design to lock out a complete class from using this ultimate, or severely gimping themselves in order to do use it.

    They should really have thought this through at the inception of the skill ultimate, it can't come as a surprise.

    Either no one at the dev team actually had the insight and they didn't see this coming, or they knew that it would be a hillariously bad skill for any DK in the game, and went with it anyway.

    In either scenario, it doesn't really reflect well on a dev team that's supposed to make combat changes on a game as large as this one.

    Edited by Carbonised on May 16, 2018 12:47PM
  • Royaji
    Royaji
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    Qbiken wrote: »
    When I first read about undo I thought about the Battle Roar passive. Will you have the amount of resources you had 4 seconds ago, or will you gain the resources from using the ultimate? I guess I know the answer. While I understand why it works this way, ZOS and their consistency (sarcasm) with things amazes me :/

    Well, as Merlin said earlier it is pretty consistent. It gives you the resource from battle roar but then it's effect kicks in and your resources are reset to what they were 4 seconds ago. Way before you've used an ultimate to get resources.
  • Feanor
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    @Carbonised

    It really depends on the situation where you’d use Undo. You can think of situations where Undo gives more resources than Battle Roar would. The ultimate is very situational anyway. I don’t see that it will get used much on other classes. Especially in PvP where you would have to replace a better offensive ultimate or a better defensive one.
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar
    All chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • DeadlyRecluse
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    The battle roar/undo interaction is wonky but makes sense mechanically.

    TBH, anyone planning on getting significant resources back from Undo is going to be disappointed. The repositioning is amazing in specific scenarios and has huge troll/emergent strategy potential, but regaining 4 seconds of resources? Unless you spent your last 4 seconds dodgeroll-cancelling purge, it's going to be underwhelming.
    Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub
  • Carbonised
    Carbonised
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    Royaji wrote: »
    Qbiken wrote: »
    When I first read about undo I thought about the Battle Roar passive. Will you have the amount of resources you had 4 seconds ago, or will you gain the resources from using the ultimate? I guess I know the answer. While I understand why it works this way, ZOS and their consistency (sarcasm) with things amazes me :/

    Well, as Merlin said earlier it is pretty consistent. It gives you the resource from battle roar but then it's effect kicks in and your resources are reset to what they were 4 seconds ago. Way before you've used an ultimate to get resources.

    And also @Feanor

    Battle Roar is a large part of DK sustain/regen. For mDKs, it's even the literally /only/ source of class sustain, at least until we now get the very small sustain from combustion.

    I'd say using any form of ultimate that essentially negates your Battleroar is about as much gimping yourself as you could possibly do.

    You can use Undo and: Get resources back, change location

    Or use just about any other ultimate and: Get resources back and get the /actual/ effects of an ultimate, usually high damage

    Can't see any scenario at all where the first of those options is the preferable one for a DK.

    Sure, it's not an overpowered ulti for any other class as well, but that's beside the point, no other class get any actual /drawbacks/ for using this ulti, whereas the DK gets the mass majority of their class sustain/regen negated by using this.
    That's what I mean by bad design.

    Edited by Carbonised on May 16, 2018 1:06PM
  • exeeter702
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    Carbonised wrote: »
    Royaji wrote: »
    Qbiken wrote: »
    When I first read about undo I thought about the Battle Roar passive. Will you have the amount of resources you had 4 seconds ago, or will you gain the resources from using the ultimate? I guess I know the answer. While I understand why it works this way, ZOS and their consistency (sarcasm) with things amazes me :/

    Well, as Merlin said earlier it is pretty consistent. It gives you the resource from battle roar but then it's effect kicks in and your resources are reset to what they were 4 seconds ago. Way before you've used an ultimate to get resources.

    And also @Feanor

    Battle Roar is a large part of DK sustain/regen. For mDKs, it's even the literally /only/ source of class sustain, at least until we now get the very small sustain from combustion.

    I'd say using any form of ultimate that essentially negates your Battleroar is about as much gimping yourself as you could possibly do.

    You can use Undo and: Get resources back, change location

    Or use just about any other ultimate and: Get resources back and get the /actual/ effects of an ultimate, usually high damage

    Can't see any scenario at all where the first of those options is the preferable one for a DK.

    Sure, it's not an overpowered ulti for any other class as well, but that's beside the point, no other class get any actual /drawbacks/ for using this ulti, whereas the DK gets the mass majority of their class sustain/regen negated by using this.
    That's what I mean by bad design.

    Amd there is nothing wrong with that. The ultimate, belonging to a universally availble skill line not being particularly ideal for 1 of the 5 classes is not poor design. Not everything needs to be designed with unquestionable viability for every class.

    I suppose there is an argument that can be made for ultimates being the exception to that rule, but realistically what would you do? Even halving the effect of battle roar when activated by undo would be grossly overtuned. The big point here is helps more builds than it hurts DKs in specific scenarios. Its ok to not have an immediate realistic need for a single ultimate in the game.
    Edited by exeeter702 on May 16, 2018 8:38PM
  • Koolio
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  • Ragnarock41
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    Do you people even realize that this literally leaves a Dk absolutely no reason to use this ultimate? Why would I ever use this over spell wall?
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on May 17, 2018 1:33AM
  • Lord_Eomer
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    Feanor wrote: »
    From the ultimates design it’s consequent. You get the values from 4 seconds before. Having Battle Roar apply on top would be too strong.

    Undo is not very good ultimate, it has some uses but definitely not use as DB or Destro Ult.
  • Savos_Saren
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    Battle Roar should still apply to Undo AFTER using it. What if your resources were lower 4 seconds ago? Then it would be useful.
    Want to enjoy the game more? Try both PvP (crybabies) and PvE (carebears). You'll get a better perspective on everyone's opinion.

    PC NA AD
    Savos Saren
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    Battle Roar should still apply to Undo AFTER using it. What if your resources were lower 4 seconds ago? Then it would be useful.

    At 165 cost? That would be too good of a sustain tool then. I agree that it’s useless for DKs in the current version. But I can’t think of a way to make this work with Battle Roar.

    Luckily we won’t see the ultimate used much on other classes either. It’s niche.
    Edited by Feanor on May 17, 2018 6:39AM
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar
    All chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • Savos_Saren
    Savos_Saren
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    exeeter702 wrote: »
    Carbonised wrote: »
    Royaji wrote: »
    Qbiken wrote: »
    When I first read about undo I thought about the Battle Roar passive. Will you have the amount of resources you had 4 seconds ago, or will you gain the resources from using the ultimate? I guess I know the answer. While I understand why it works this way, ZOS and their consistency (sarcasm) with things amazes me :/

    Well, as Merlin said earlier it is pretty consistent. It gives you the resource from battle roar but then it's effect kicks in and your resources are reset to what they were 4 seconds ago. Way before you've used an ultimate to get resources.

    And also @Feanor

    Battle Roar is a large part of DK sustain/regen. For mDKs, it's even the literally /only/ source of class sustain, at least until we now get the very small sustain from combustion.

    I'd say using any form of ultimate that essentially negates your Battleroar is about as much gimping yourself as you could possibly do.

    You can use Undo and: Get resources back, change location

    Or use just about any other ultimate and: Get resources back and get the /actual/ effects of an ultimate, usually high damage

    Can't see any scenario at all where the first of those options is the preferable one for a DK.

    Sure, it's not an overpowered ulti for any other class as well, but that's beside the point, no other class get any actual /drawbacks/ for using this ulti, whereas the DK gets the mass majority of their class sustain/regen negated by using this.
    That's what I mean by bad design.

    Amd there is nothing wrong with that. The ultimate, belonging to a universally availble skill line not being particularly ideal for 1 of the 5 classes is not poor design. Not everything needs to be designed with unquestionable viability for every class.

    I suppose there is an argument that can be made for ultimates being the exception to that rule, but realistically what would you do? Even halving the effect of battle roar when activated by undo would be grossly overtuned. The big point here is helps more builds than it hurts DKs in specific scenarios. Its ok to not have an immediate realistic need for a single ultimate in the game.

    So, if a DK’s passive doesn’t apply to this Ultimate- it’s fine?

    I guarantee you that Sorcs would be flipping out if their passive, Power Stone, didn’t make Undo 15% cheaper...
    Want to enjoy the game more? Try both PvP (crybabies) and PvE (carebears). You'll get a better perspective on everyone's opinion.

    PC NA AD
    Savos Saren
  • Still_Mind
    Still_Mind
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    exeeter702 wrote: »
    Carbonised wrote: »
    Royaji wrote: »
    Qbiken wrote: »
    When I first read about undo I thought about the Battle Roar passive. Will you have the amount of resources you had 4 seconds ago, or will you gain the resources from using the ultimate? I guess I know the answer. While I understand why it works this way, ZOS and their consistency (sarcasm) with things amazes me :/

    Well, as Merlin said earlier it is pretty consistent. It gives you the resource from battle roar but then it's effect kicks in and your resources are reset to what they were 4 seconds ago. Way before you've used an ultimate to get resources.

    And also @Feanor

    Battle Roar is a large part of DK sustain/regen. For mDKs, it's even the literally /only/ source of class sustain, at least until we now get the very small sustain from combustion.

    I'd say using any form of ultimate that essentially negates your Battleroar is about as much gimping yourself as you could possibly do.

    You can use Undo and: Get resources back, change location

    Or use just about any other ultimate and: Get resources back and get the /actual/ effects of an ultimate, usually high damage

    Can't see any scenario at all where the first of those options is the preferable one for a DK.

    Sure, it's not an overpowered ulti for any other class as well, but that's beside the point, no other class get any actual /drawbacks/ for using this ulti, whereas the DK gets the mass majority of their class sustain/regen negated by using this.
    That's what I mean by bad design.

    Amd there is nothing wrong with that. The ultimate, belonging to a universally availble skill line not being particularly ideal for 1 of the 5 classes is not poor design. Not everything needs to be designed with unquestionable viability for every class.

    I suppose there is an argument that can be made for ultimates being the exception to that rule, but realistically what would you do? Even halving the effect of battle roar when activated by undo would be grossly overtuned. The big point here is helps more builds than it hurts DKs in specific scenarios. Its ok to not have an immediate realistic need for a single ultimate in the game.

    So, if a DK’s passive doesn’t apply to this Ultimate- it’s fine?

    I guarantee you that Sorcs would be flipping out if their passive, Power Stone, didn’t make Undo 15% cheaper...

    This, indeed.

    However, I don't think that DKs will be needing this Ultimate that much-they have other, quite efficient options.
    "I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!"
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    exeeter702 wrote: »
    Carbonised wrote: »
    Royaji wrote: »
    Qbiken wrote: »
    When I first read about undo I thought about the Battle Roar passive. Will you have the amount of resources you had 4 seconds ago, or will you gain the resources from using the ultimate? I guess I know the answer. While I understand why it works this way, ZOS and their consistency (sarcasm) with things amazes me :/

    Well, as Merlin said earlier it is pretty consistent. It gives you the resource from battle roar but then it's effect kicks in and your resources are reset to what they were 4 seconds ago. Way before you've used an ultimate to get resources.

    And also @Feanor

    Battle Roar is a large part of DK sustain/regen. For mDKs, it's even the literally /only/ source of class sustain, at least until we now get the very small sustain from combustion.

    I'd say using any form of ultimate that essentially negates your Battleroar is about as much gimping yourself as you could possibly do.

    You can use Undo and: Get resources back, change location

    Or use just about any other ultimate and: Get resources back and get the /actual/ effects of an ultimate, usually high damage

    Can't see any scenario at all where the first of those options is the preferable one for a DK.

    Sure, it's not an overpowered ulti for any other class as well, but that's beside the point, no other class get any actual /drawbacks/ for using this ulti, whereas the DK gets the mass majority of their class sustain/regen negated by using this.
    That's what I mean by bad design.

    Amd there is nothing wrong with that. The ultimate, belonging to a universally availble skill line not being particularly ideal for 1 of the 5 classes is not poor design. Not everything needs to be designed with unquestionable viability for every class.

    I suppose there is an argument that can be made for ultimates being the exception to that rule, but realistically what would you do? Even halving the effect of battle roar when activated by undo would be grossly overtuned. The big point here is helps more builds than it hurts DKs in specific scenarios. Its ok to not have an immediate realistic need for a single ultimate in the game.

    So, if a DK’s passive doesn’t apply to this Ultimate- it’s fine?

    I guarantee you that Sorcs would be flipping out if their passive, Power Stone, didn’t make Undo 15% cheaper...

    The thing is I won‘t use Undo even with Power Stone...
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar
    All chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • dsalter
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    undo is only really for backing out of a gank death tbh, i dont see any other useful thing for it besides power monster pulls and even then i'm sure slotting resto ulti would be more efficient since thats 6 seconds and cheaper
    PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread

    EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
    Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.

  • exeeter702
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    exeeter702 wrote: »
    Carbonised wrote: »
    Royaji wrote: »
    Qbiken wrote: »
    When I first read about undo I thought about the Battle Roar passive. Will you have the amount of resources you had 4 seconds ago, or will you gain the resources from using the ultimate? I guess I know the answer. While I understand why it works this way, ZOS and their consistency (sarcasm) with things amazes me :/

    Well, as Merlin said earlier it is pretty consistent. It gives you the resource from battle roar but then it's effect kicks in and your resources are reset to what they were 4 seconds ago. Way before you've used an ultimate to get resources.

    And also @Feanor

    Battle Roar is a large part of DK sustain/regen. For mDKs, it's even the literally /only/ source of class sustain, at least until we now get the very small sustain from combustion.

    I'd say using any form of ultimate that essentially negates your Battleroar is about as much gimping yourself as you could possibly do.

    You can use Undo and: Get resources back, change location

    Or use just about any other ultimate and: Get resources back and get the /actual/ effects of an ultimate, usually high damage

    Can't see any scenario at all where the first of those options is the preferable one for a DK.

    Sure, it's not an overpowered ulti for any other class as well, but that's beside the point, no other class get any actual /drawbacks/ for using this ulti, whereas the DK gets the mass majority of their class sustain/regen negated by using this.
    That's what I mean by bad design.

    Amd there is nothing wrong with that. The ultimate, belonging to a universally availble skill line not being particularly ideal for 1 of the 5 classes is not poor design. Not everything needs to be designed with unquestionable viability for every class.

    I suppose there is an argument that can be made for ultimates being the exception to that rule, but realistically what would you do? Even halving the effect of battle roar when activated by undo would be grossly overtuned. The big point here is helps more builds than it hurts DKs in specific scenarios. Its ok to not have an immediate realistic need for a single ultimate in the game.

    So, if a DK’s passive doesn’t apply to this Ultimate- it’s fine?

    I guarantee you that Sorcs would be flipping out if their passive, Power Stone, didn’t make Undo 15% cheaper...
    You are missing the point. Undo will what its supposed to regardless. Your comparison makes no sense especially on the grounds that power stone and roar are in no way comparable.
  • DeadlyRecluse
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    dsalter wrote: »
    undo is only really for backing out of a gank death tbh, i dont see any other useful thing for it besides power monster pulls and even then i'm sure slotting resto ulti would be more efficient since thats 6 seconds and cheaper

    Will it even be super useful for that?

    I mean, if I get ganked and undo myself away from the brink of death, it's just a heal, right? I was probably CCed so I didn't move a long way (so the location shift doesn't come into play) and I probably wasn't low on resources, as I wasn't actively in combat--as it's a gank, after all (so the resource return doesn't really come into play either). I'd be better off, most likely, dodgerolling/healing and mashing resto ult there, too. That would be almost as likely to help me survive the gank, plus I'd have a few seconds of light's champ buffs/heals to turn the tables.

    I really only see it as a tool for terrain shenanigans and some niche troll builds that will use it as a particularly enraging, if less effective, defensive ult.
    Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub
  • Vaoh
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    This is just one of the many things that should have been addressed based on PTS feedback.

    ZOS is totally silent rn on class balance.
  • templesus
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    Battle roar does work though....then you get teleported 4 seconds in the past to before when it worked...like the ability says
  • usmcjdking
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    This skill would be wildly unbalanced if it worked with Battle Roar/Witchman's.
    0331
    0602
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    How many armor sets does overload not work with? At least 5. Some things are just not going to work.
  • ak_pvp
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    What a surprise. DKs get overlooked again.

    Thankfully this ult would be useless even with battle roar. I moved and got some resources back, wow.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • dsalter
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    What a surprise. DKs get overlooked again.

    Thankfully this ult would be useless even with battle roar. I moved and got some resources back, wow.

    but it actually works... the way mountain works is it applies the heal+resources first because passives take priority, then the undo sets the numbers exactly 4 seconds ago... 4 seconds ago you didnt gain resources and health from the mountain. so it undoes what you applied from mountain.

    in rewind you cast undo, your mountain gets uncast, you untake all your damage and unspend all your resources.
    it literally works perfectly as whats on the tin and thats unusual as hell from ZoS
    PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread

    EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
    Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.

  • Ragnaroek93
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    I can't believe that people think this is fine. This ultimate is completely useless for all Dk builds if it doesn't proc Battle Roar.
    I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.
  • Ragnarock41
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    I can't believe that people think this is fine. This ultimate is completely useless for all Dk builds if it doesn't proc Battle Roar.

    Dks are considered the peasants of tamriel apparently. They never get to enjoy anything, because having literally anything synergize with Dk passives would be gamebreaking. Thats why we have a heal on cinderstorm and cauterize that also doesn't synergize with any passives. Thanks wrobel.
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on May 18, 2018 4:41PM
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