Preventing Time Stop exploitation

Jeezye

I am somewhat surprised this skill received so litte attention in the forums so far. For those who don't know the skill yet:

Time Stop - Freezes the passage of time at the target location, gradually reducing the Movement Speed of enemies in the area during the cast before finally stunning them in place when the cast completes.
Borrowed Time - Enemies that are stunned have their next heal completely negated for a few seconds.
Time Freeze - Removes the cast time, but it takes longer to stun enemies.

It is a very cool designed ability with striking visual effects, and extremely powerful to crowd control a group of enemies. Especially in PvP I can see much use to control choke points like towers or keeps. Also in PvE, CCing trash pulls can go a long way in certain situations. However, I think the skill will find more application in PvP, especially because of the first morph which will negate player healing.

In fact, I think the skill is loaded with so many unique and powerful effects that it is subject to be abused by nearly any coordinated group/ player, and here's why:

• it provides a long lasting AoE stun to enemies without any downside. Every character can slot this skill once he unlocked the skill line. The only ability in the game that is comparable to such a strong CC mechanic is NBs fear trap morph, which needs a number of conditions to trigger.
• the first morph applies a unique 5k healing reduction, which by itself is extremly strong. On top of that, it also applies to the whole group of effected targets.
• the cast time is really fast, it offers just a tiny period for players to move out of the area and they get hindered by an increasing slow on top of that. Additionally, the caster gets major proctection as passive effect which almost neglects the susceptibility of the cast time.
• it comes at a comparibly low magicka cost of 4,3k magicka which is just slightly higher than single target CCs like Stonfist (DK), Fear (NB), Rune Prison (sorc), and so on. With cost reduction, this skill can easily be spammed on magicka specs.
• it has a 28m range and therefore can be spammed from keep walls, back lines or other safe spots. I think forcing the caster to expose himself by making the skill target the location around him would be better, but for now it has a huge casting range.

Now if this skill only effected one target, I think it would be perfectly in line with the available stuns the game provides at the moment. But given that it effects all enemies in its area and facing the strong effects it provides, I can already see Cyrodiil and BGs littered with glowing bubbles.

Comparing the skill with other skills that provide that strong group utility like Purge and Siege Shield, I think the most evident way to prevent abuse would be to significantly increase the skill cost to at least 7k magicka.

I don't want the skills effect to change, since it is really unique and provide very interesting mechanics, but casting such a strong skill should come at a great expense with thorough timing.

Another option would be to remove the range of the skill so players need to move to the location they want to stop, which makes them more susceptible and exposed to enemy attacks.

Again I think ZOS did a great job with the design of that skill, but such a versatile skill packed with powerful effects should come at a much greater expense than it currently does.

Happy to hear other thoughts to convince me of the opposite

Minalan

It sounds like a spammable negate-lite, and a very powerful area denial.

WillhelmBlack

Pay the money, win.

Joy_Division

I can leave and the skill does nothing.

TheNuminous1

ugh pvp pls stawp. let me have new fun nice stuff without ruining it before you even have a chance to use it.

at worst it chokes a few points for a few seconds and at best its a zerg scatterer.

RoyJade

Well, it still has downside : it's highly telegraphed (unlike instant single target stun) and the cast time prevent the user from doing something else (such as maintaining offensive pressure). I thing this skill will be pretty weak for duelling and very small group, but it will provide a extremely powerful tool against huge group who aren't running anti-cc potions. It may finally become the anti-group tool we needed for so long, since this time large zerg cannot use it as much as they can abuse proxy detonation or destro ulti. And that, without being really game-changer for small scale fight.

It may be too powerful, but it may also be at the right place actually. I would suggest to look carefully at the skill for at least one month post-release, and up the cost or diminish the range if really needed. But I won't nerf it now.

Jeezye

Joy_Division wrote: »

I can leave and the skill does nothing.

There is obviously easy counterplay to it if you are aware of your surroundings and you are participating in an overseeable skirmish. However, in larger scaled battles, which unfortunatly occur 80% of the time, there will be more than just one player spamming this ability while others are hammering on you, so I'm afraid it will feel like dodging siege weapons AoE effects in the heat of a battle.

danno8

Stamina classes will be immune to the snare and just get out of it, magicka classes will most likely just mist out of it. If it was instant cast, or instant ground stun I would agree it is very strong, but the ground based delayed effect makes it about as dangerous (probably less dangerous, actually) in PvP as any other ground based spell.

Jeezye

RoyJade wrote: »

Well, it still has downside : it's highly telegraphed (unlike instant single target stun) and the cast time prevent the user from doing something else (such as maintaining offensive pressure). I thing this skill will be pretty weak for duelling and very small group, but it will provide a extremely powerful tool against huge group who aren't running anti-cc potions. It may finally become the anti-group tool we needed for so long, since this time large zerg cannot use it as much as they can abuse proxy detonation or destro ulti. And that, without being really game-changer for small scale fight.

It may be too powerful, but it may also be at the right place actually. I would suggest to look carefully at the skill for at least one month post-release, and up the cost or diminish the range if really needed. But I won't nerf it now.

Good input, thanks. The thing with these skills is, on paper they look very fitting to scather zergs (which I'd love to see!!!). On the other hand, it is exactly those zergs that will have the strengh in numbers to spamm this ability against your mentioned small groups...

While I'd like to see how the skill performs on the populated live servers, ZOS usually barely touche skills after they leave PTS so we'll have to deal with it for half a year worst case...

Cinbri

I might need reconsider what word "abuse" means.

Jeezye

Cinbri wrote: »

I might need reconsider what word "abuse" means.

lol no native speaker here, have edited the title to be more appropriate

RoyJade

Jeezye wrote: »

Good input, thanks. The thing with these skills is, on paper they look very fitting to scather zergs (which I'd love to see!!!). On the other hand, it is exactly those zergs that will have the strengh in numbers to spamm this ability against your mentioned small groups...

While I'd like to see how the skill performs on the populated live servers, ZOS usually barely touche skills after they leave PTS so we'll have to deal with it for half a year worst case...

Zerg can easily abuse caster-area skills because it give them both mobility and damage. Negate is one of the few skill that fit in such groups, and even here it's less used by zerg than by zerg counter because it ask some aim and coordination. Time stop work very similarly than negate, except it has a 1,5 second build up who give players some time to react. Small group can easily see the area, while sheep-zergling players can miss it pretty easily with all the other effects surrounding them. That why, this time, I hope time stop will not be really good as a zerg tool but far better as a counter to these groups.

The skill will be used a lot by coordinated medium group, that's for sure. But these same group will use it with same ease even if the cost is doubled, when solo/small group will have a lot more trouble using it with too high cost and especially stamina players.


And sadly, you're right on ZOS traditional schedule… but I still want to keep hope.

WembleyOTG

I would rather the skill not be changed until you see how it works instead of brainstorming things that may be.. Also maybe it's fine for a change to how things work. No one wants stale game with no changes. Play a single player game for that.

ezeepeezee

I'm personally hoping it's a nail in the coffin for heal spamming ball groups. But as long as there's perma-rapids they aren't gonna get caught by it, probably.

Joy_Division

Jeezye wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I can leave and the skill does nothing.

There is obviously easy counterplay to it if you are aware of your surroundings and you are participating in an overseeable skirmish. However, in larger scaled battles, which unfortunatly occur 80% of the time, there will be more than just one player spamming this ability while others are hammering on you, so I'm afraid it will feel like dodging siege weapons AoE effects in the heat of a battle.

Have you actually seen what the spell looks like? If someone can't be bothered to pay attention to that because their papa crown add-on takes up half the screen, then they deserve to get stunned.

Jeezye

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I can leave and the skill does nothing.

There is obviously easy counterplay to it if you are aware of your surroundings and you are participating in an overseeable skirmish. However, in larger scaled battles, which unfortunatly occur 80% of the time, there will be more than just one player spamming this ability while others are hammering on you, so I'm afraid it will feel like dodging siege weapons AoE effects in the heat of a battle.

Have you actually seen what the spell looks like? If someone can't be bothered to pay attention to that because their papa crown add-on takes up half the screen, then they deserve to get stunned.

The spell looks amazing, just as I credited ZOS for their great work in my OP. I guess time will tell how popular the skill will get. As I said earlier, one cast will be no thread to serious players, but being bombarded with bubbles while being pressured might be a thing. Im sure you're capable of dodging most sieges, but when people jump you, that's when sieges become a real problem.

Marginis

I like the idea that this skill line as a whole gives a wider range to all classes without completely negating their specialities. For example, this skill in particular gives my nightblade tank some much needed AOE control, even though it's still definitely not up to the standards of dragonknight tanks. It's debatably not the best way to handle lack of versatility in classes, but it does at least help less versatile classes to have a skill line like this in their repertoire.

ak_pvp

The casting from range thing might be an issue for some points, but otherwise, really lackluster.

Syncronaut

Its designed to kill zergs. And that is a good thing.

Sieges + this skill spam from walls

Vaoh

By “abused” do you simply mean “used” by coordinated groups? It seems like great skill for PvP in general. The normal skill has a cast time so you can’t do anything else while casting it. The instant cast morph takes longer to actually CC.

Seems fine to me It’s actually far more helpful for small groups vs larger groups.... which is very good imo. Also like you said it promotes coordination which is also good.

On a side note, the poor, deprived PvP Mag Wardens can slot a CC that isn’t Destructive Touch solely thanks to this skill.

Jeezye

Vaoh wrote: »

On a side note, the poor, deprived PvP Mag Wardens can slot a CC that isn’t Destructive Touch solely thanks to this skill.

Actually I was instantly thinking to my magwarden as well because he runs so many roots/ slows anyways that its a great addition to his kit.

Anyway, at least I will defintaly incorporate the skill to my kits an many builds. Call it abusing or whatever, I think the skill comes super cheap for all it provides.

Waffennacht

I doubt I'll see it much at all in BGs. Most people will pick death match while this ability would only be good for like domination

KingShocker

Jeezye wrote: »

Borrowed Time - Enemies that are stunned have their next heal completely negated for a few seconds.

Isn't there a cap to how much healing it can negate, I believe the tooltip is in the ball park of 8K, 4K in pvp (based on a magika dps character stats). I think what could make that a broken skill depends on how that debuff stacks with other casters of the skill. Just one of those debuffs seem negligible but a group of destro bombers could easily stack 20k+ of counter healing on a group of enemies (well maybe, it still has a cast time that could make it difficult for group play).

If your enemy rolls out in time (which is easy to do) then you will have wasted a large amount of magika and time. doesn't exactly seem OP to me but I think the true test will be when the chapter hits live servers and big groups get a chance to use it.

dsalter

if rapids can get them through it no problem, its not gunna stop zergs.

RoyJade

KingShocker wrote: »

Isn't there a cap to how much healing it can negate, I believe the tooltip is in the ball park of 8K, 4K in pvp (based on a magika dps character stats). I think what could make that a broken skill depends on how that debuff stacks with other casters of the skill. Just one of those debuffs seem negligible but a group of destro bombers could easily stack 20k+ of counter healing on a group of enemies (well maybe, it still has a cast time that could make it difficult for group play).

If your enemy rolls out in time (which is easy to do) then you will have wasted a large amount of magika and time. doesn't exactly seem OP to me but I think the true test will be when the chapter hits live servers and big groups get a chance to use it.

If I remember it's 5K on a naked character, and same number on a fully loaded one. The value seem static, which is good.
I don't know if it's stackable, nor if it's reduced by battle spirit, but I hope the answer is no for both.

Tyrobag

There's this wonderful new ability they've added to counteract timestop: its called moving 5 feet in any direction.

ToRelax

Tyrobag wrote: »

There's this wonderful new ability they've added to counteract timestop: its called moving 5 feet in any direction.

It's actually been in the game for a while now, but not many players know about it.

Jeezye

Yes it is a 5k fixed amount, which is a pretty big debuff. It effectively takes 10k healing to bypass this. On the other hand it only has a 3 sec duration so I don’t think it’ll be that much of a big deal

Vapirko

ESO PvP cycle: 1) ZOS introduces new OP thing 2) it makes PvP a nightmare and we spend the entire year to balance 3) at some point it gets nerfed 4) we have a short period of relative balance 5) ZOS learns nothing and introduces new OP thing with next major update 6) repeat

xaraan

Not seeing anything in your descriptions that look overpowered to me about the ability. It has more than enough counterplay.

Synapsis123

Does it only apply the heal debuff if the person actually gets stunned or does it apply the heal debuff regardless of whether the person is stunned? The former would be fine.