How to improve the 2H's DPS in its current state

Strider__Roshin

Adjust 3 things:
1) Increase its light and heavy attack speed to match DW.
2) Double the splash damage done by the Forceful passive
3) Change Follow Up so that it empowers your next light attack done within 2-3 seconds.

Tyrobag

I'd rather they increase the damage and resource restore than increase the speed. Just make the resource return and total damage over time equal and its fine. 2h should logically be a bit slower than DW.

Strider__Roshin

Tyrobag wrote: »

I'd rather they increase the damage and resource restore than increase the speed. Just make the resource return and total damage over time equal and its fine. 2h should logically be a bit slower than DW.

And should logically hit harder.

RoyJade

Daus wrote: »

Adjust 3 things:
1) Increase its light and heavy attack speed to match DW.
2) Double the splash damage done by the Forceful passive
3) Change Follow Up so that it empowers your next light attack done within 2-3 seconds.

For 1) Increase its light and heavy attack speed to match DW, I would prefer the damage to match DW and give more resource for the HA. The speed is not a problem for LA weaving, and with more resource gained the HA would be really useful (if it does the same damage than heavy DW, of course).
Agreed on the change to forceful, perhaps add some additional target also.
For follow up, empower is a good idea. They may be some better ideas, but this one is fine IMO.

I would also add a rework for wrecking blow : no more cast time and damage reduced in order to keep the same overall dps. 2H need a more reliable spammable, and even if crushing weapon can finally gives one, it's alway better to have more relevant choice.
Last but not least, removing rally (putting it on the fighter guild's tree) and give HA a new pve-useful skill may be a good buff for the weapon. Perhaps a new dot.

Tyrobag

Daus wrote: »

Last but not least, removing rally (putting it on the fighter guild's tree) and give HA a new pve-useful skill may be a good buff for the weapon. Perhaps a new dot.

Hell no O.o

Rally is insanely useful in pve, as a Templar or Nightblade its one of the biggest draws of 2h. If you put it somewhere else then dw can take it too, making 2h even less useful.

RoyJade

Tyrobag wrote: »

Hell no O.o

Rally is insanely useful in pve, its one of the biggest draws of 2h. If you put it somewhere else then dw or bow can take it too, making 2h even less useful.

Rally is useful on overland pve, but in mid-pve it's only useful for the major brutality. While three classes can easily get it (sorc, Dk, warden) and one can have it too (NB, but with a weak skill), it shouldn't be a weapon-locked skill and it's completely useless when attacking endgame content (since pots and/or a DK with igneous are nearly everywhere). At this level the heal is not necessary, nor is the snare removal.
Giving 2H a new strong dot would boost his dps and give it a better place in pve. Removing rally from the 2H skill line give DW build a chance in pvp. The new skill should be carefully chosen, but 2h would get a huge (and needed) pve boost in that case (along with the DW pvp boost).

mr_wazzabi

They could start with undoing the light and heavy attack nerfs

Tempestwrath

RoyJade wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Hell no O.o

Rally is insanely useful in pve, its one of the biggest draws of 2h. If you put it somewhere else then dw or bow can take it too, making 2h even less useful.

Rally is useful on overland pve, but in mid-pve it's only useful for the major brutality. While three classes can easily get it (sorc, Dk, warden) and one can have it too (NB, but with a weak skill), it shouldn't be a weapon-locked skill and it's completely useless when attacking endgame content (since pots and/or a DK with igneous are nearly everywhere). At this level the heal is not necessary, nor is the snare removal.
Giving 2H a new strong dot would boost his dps and give it a better place in pve. Removing rally from the 2H skill line give DW build a chance in pvp. The new skill should be carefully chosen, but 2h would get a huge (and needed) pve boost in that case (along with the DW pvp boost).

This is just my personal feeling but I've always felt it kind of limiting that 2H basically encompasses three essential tools for any stamina PVP build: A gap closer, a good execute, and a Brutality/Heal Over Time/Snare removal skill all in one line. It kind of constricts how effective you can make 2H's sustained DPS, because otherwise it completely overshadows DW.

In general I feel like it's bad practice for any one skill line to have all of the answers.

I don't really know where I'm going with this, but I've had thoughts similar to yours of moving one of the "answers" to another skill line to give it room to grow into its own identity outside of being a utility/burst skill line.

BattleAxe

2H is fine as is because DW you get 2 weapon enchantments so I think the rally being in 2H is a fair trade off

BattleAxe

Only change I feel 2H needs to stand out it’s a slow weapon so either increase the damage or allow 2H either a knock back or a stun or at least increase effectiveness of stuns and cc applied and the counter to this for dw is increase passive dodge chance

Beardimus

A buff to 2H??? No thanks.

I'm guessing you dont play PvP where its so meta even magika toons run it for momemtum..

Feanor

BattleAxe wrote: »

Only change I feel 2H needs to stand out it’s a slow so either increase the damage or allow 2H either a knock back or a stun

It already has. Dizzying Swing.

BattleAxe

What I’m trying to get at is give each weapon skill line a new unique passive and pair the Weapons off where the passive act as a counter to its paired counter part

Septimus_Magna

Wrecking Blow should be instant cast, maybe with reduced dmg to bring it in line with other spammables.
The new empowered effect buffs the next light attack so it could be really good for PVE dps.

Strider__Roshin

Beardimus wrote: »

A buff to 2H??? No thanks.

I'm guessing you dont play PvP where its so meta even magika toons run it for momemtum..

I'm guessing you don't play PvE where the meta is to DW.

Alcast

Forceful used to be good, but then wrobel randomly decided to nerf it so it can NOT crit anymore
If you have suggestions/improvements, please use the ingame feedback tool as well, the chance that someone reads it is way higher than the forums.

Strider__Roshin

Alcast wrote: »

Forceful used to be good, but then wrobel randomly decided to nerf it so it can NOT crit anymore
If you have suggestions/improvements, please use the ingame feedback tool as well, the chance that someone reads it is way higher than the forums.

Good to know, thanks bud!

Subversus

Increase the attack speed? So that you can swing a heavy 2h sword that’s about as big as 80% of your character as fast as a dagger the size of your forearm? Doesn’t sound right to me.

Tempestwrath

Subversus wrote: »

Increase the attack speed? So that you can swing a heavy 2h sword that’s about as big as 80% of your character as fast as a dagger the size of your forearm? Doesn’t sound right to me.

Doesn't sound any worse than the current situation where the big, heavy 2H sword swings for less damage than a single strike from one 1H sword, and does it slower.

Subversus

Tempestwrath wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Increase the attack speed? So that you can swing a heavy 2h sword that’s about as big as 80% of your character as fast as a dagger the size of your forearm? Doesn’t sound right to me.

Doesn't sound any worse than the current situation where the big, heavy 2H sword swings for less damage than a single strike from one 1H sword, and does it slower.

To be completely fair, I’d assume a light (but still kinda long) sword to do more single target damage than a heavy ass one due to the precision of your strikes. With something big you don’t hit as accurately therefore the damage can or can not be minimal, depending on luck (?). It seems just right to me that dw does better single target while heavy better aoe.

I don’t know what the problem is. I don’t want my fire staff to suddenly start healing. It’s not designed for that.

Strider__Roshin

Subversus wrote: »

Tempestwrath wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Increase the attack speed? So that you can swing a heavy 2h sword that’s about as big as 80% of your character as fast as a dagger the size of your forearm? Doesn’t sound right to me.

Doesn't sound any worse than the current situation where the big, heavy 2H sword swings for less damage than a single strike from one 1H sword, and does it slower.

To be completely fair, I’d assume a light (but still kinda long) sword to do more single target damage than a heavy ass one due to the precision of your strikes. With something big you don’t hit as accurately therefore the damage can or can not be minimal, depending on luck (?). It seems just right to me that dw does better single target while heavy better aoe.

I don’t know what the problem is. I don’t want my fire staff to suddenly start healing. It’s not designed for that.

They didn't perform executions with short swords or daggers, they did them with big swords and battle axes. There's a reason for that.

And if you want to get mathematical the force dealt by an object is the product of its mass multiplied by its acceleration.

Ever go to the fair? Notice how it's easier to ring the bell when you use a bigger hammer over the small one at the strong man game? There's a reason for that. The 2H should swing slightly slower, yes. However it should hit much harder.

Subversus

Daus wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Tempestwrath wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Increase the attack speed? So that you can swing a heavy 2h sword that’s about as big as 80% of your character as fast as a dagger the size of your forearm? Doesn’t sound right to me.

Doesn't sound any worse than the current situation where the big, heavy 2H sword swings for less damage than a single strike from one 1H sword, and does it slower.

To be completely fair, I’d assume a light (but still kinda long) sword to do more single target damage than a heavy ass one due to the precision of your strikes. With something big you don’t hit as accurately therefore the damage can or can not be minimal, depending on luck (?). It seems just right to me that dw does better single target while heavy better aoe.

I don’t know what the problem is. I don’t want my fire staff to suddenly start healing. It’s not designed for that.

They didn't perform executions with short swords or daggers, they did them with big swords and battle axes. There's a reason for that.

And if you want to get mathematical the force dealt by an object is the product of its mass multiplied by its acceleration.

Ever go to the fair? Notice how it's easier to ring the bell when you use a bigger hammer over the small one at the strong man game? There's a reason for that. The 2H should swing slightly slower, yes. However it should hit much harder.

It should hit much harder, I agree. It should have more burst. Dual wield should be more about sustained dps. It’s easier to keep hitting attacks with small weapons than with big ones.

Or do you want to do this like the fair and give the 2h attacks a cooldown so each one is slower than the previous one? If you are so keen in changing it into your idea of reality.

commdt

No, it wont feel right. 2H is slow and hard hitting, which is always win in PvP

So to balance it in PvE you need to give it some boost in PvE not quite useful in PvP like change Follow up to something like Bow's Hawk eye, but with HA: "Every HA made within 10 secs of each other increases your WD by X points up to 5-10 stacks". You wont get much of it in Pvp but in PvE it will shine. Or maybe something that increases crit chance, which has less effect in PvP due to Impenetrable

You got the point

olsborg

2h light and heavy attacks should logically and righteously deal more dmg then dw and staffs.

Subversus

olsborg wrote: »

2h light and heavy attacks should logically and righteously deal more dmg then dw and staffs.

And be much slower, if you want to go by logic.

Narvuntien

I am going to agree with the DW should swing faster and 2h hit harder.

Basically don't nerf the 2h light and heavy attacks just because it is two pieces now.

And yes that will make dw very bad for PVP. Maybe, we have to look at ways to buff dw in PVP rather than nerf 2h in PVP?

mr_wazzabi

Subversus wrote: »

Tempestwrath wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Increase the attack speed? So that you can swing a heavy 2h sword that’s about as big as 80% of your character as fast as a dagger the size of your forearm? Doesn’t sound right to me.

Doesn't sound any worse than the current situation where the big, heavy 2H sword swings for less damage than a single strike from one 1H sword, and does it slower.

To be completely fair, I’d assume a light (but still kinda long) sword to do more single target damage than a heavy ass one due to the precision of your strikes. With something big you don’t hit as accurately therefore the damage can or can not be minimal, depending on luck (?). It seems just right to me that dw does better single target while heavy better aoe.

I don’t know what the problem is. I don’t want my fire staff to suddenly start healing. It’s not designed for that.

Go watch the Deadliest Warrior and Forged in Fire and you'll see just how much more damage 2H swords do

Strider__Roshin

Narvuntien wrote: »

I am going to agree with the DW should swing faster and 2h hit harder.

Basically don't nerf the 2h light and heavy attacks just because it is two pieces now.

And yes that will make dw very bad for PVP. Maybe, we have to look at ways to buff dw in PVP rather than nerf 2h in PVP?

DW is already really strong in PvP due to Bleeds, mitigation via Blade Cloak, and by having 2 enchants. It just depends on play style. If you want to have the utility of range you'll have to give up on DW typically since Momentum is too necessary for Stam build in PvP. It's not that the 2H is strong in PvP; it's that Momentum is necessary. If they moved momentum to the fighters guild you'd see a massive drop in 2H usage.

reprosal

Beardimus wrote: »

A buff to 2H??? No thanks.

I'm guessing you dont play PvP where its so meta even magika toons run it for momemtum..

Already stated above that all stam are pigeonholed to DW to be competitive.

I don’t think it is unreasonable to ask for all weapon lines to be within 4-5% of each other with similar skilled players. However... you will not see 2H come within 3-4k DPS of a standard end game stam meta right now. It is more like 10-13k DPS behind on PTS which is ~15-20% less overall. That is ridiculous..

Tempestwrath

reprosal wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

A buff to 2H??? No thanks.

I'm guessing you dont play PvP where its so meta even magika toons run it for momemtum..

Already stated above that all stam are pigeonholed to DW to be competitive.

I don’t think it is unreasonable to ask for all weapon lines to be within 4-5% of each other with similar skilled players. However... you will not see 2H come within 3-4k DPS of a standard end game stam meta right now. It is more like 10-13k DPS behind on PTS which is ~15-20% less overall. That is ridiculous..

There is a Reddit thread with several 2H vs DW parses that have them within 4.5-5.6% of each other on 4.0.2 PTS, with something like a 1.5-2k spread with 2H being behind in both.

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/8glidq/the_state_of_2h_pve_dps_in_summerset/

These results are encouraging, but I do honestly feel like a slight boost to weapon damage for 2H wouldn't be out of line to bring it comfortably within a 3-5% margin.

Perhaps a reworking of the Follow Up passive is in order. Right now, it's a dead passive since light attacks are so heavily pushed now. It's still used in PVP but the considerably curtailed heavy attack damage on PTS may mean it's no longer bursty enough. Something that synergizes a bit better with the reworked Empower and the other balance changes would be nice.

Leemado

Im in favor of moving Rally/Momentum to the figthers guild and give 2H a nice DoT on its place.
Or give us Major Fracture!