Tanks are for more than bosses

CaffeinatedMayhem

Hey DPS that just run ahead, skipping all the adds and pulling bosses,

Tanks have purpose in group dungeons besides bosses. Tanks group adds for better AOE usage. No, there is not an "area" taunt, but have you seen what talons do? If you pull that "Ignite" synergy a few times this will go MUCH faster.

If you want to start fights as a DPS, by all means do! But if you put the boss in an area that's bad for the tank...why do you expect the tank to save your ass?

So, don't get abusive when a tank drops group on you. I'm not here to just run behind, I'm here to run the dungeon.

Sincerely,
That tank you're DM-ing hate

P.S. If you don't care if you have a tank or not, don't use the queue please. Find 4 dps and have fun.
P.P.S Wonder why real tanks don't queue? This is why.

EDS604

You don't rlly need a aoe taunt if dps let tank just run in first, wait a few seconds and mobs are all on tank.. attack mobs close to tank and all is good, things start to get messy when dps pick targets further away from the tank.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Exactly. I pull talons on the main group, and then chain in the outliers (if possible). It's annoying when single-target builds and pets root them out there.

Yzalirk

I get that people want to speed through the dungeon because they are farming gear but come on, it makes you wonder why you are there. I noticed that when a DPS kills a boss when you are behind with the rest of the group, you do not get the gear. Very irritating when you are there for gear to establish your build.

Ley

I've just accepted that nobody cares about trash mobs in pug groups.

Now occasionally when I'm running in a pre-made group and the tank is given the opportunity to do their job, it's glorious! Instead of DPS splitting mobs into 4-5 medium pulls, a real tank pulls them all into one massive group. Dungeon goes faster and killing large groups is way more satisfying.

ShadowMonarch

The real question is why do you stop to pull each group of mobs 1 at a time, why don't you pull all the mobs between you and the next boss and kill them all at once?

inefficient.

kargen27

I fully agree players shouldn't run ahead of the group. Healers often get left behind because DPS sprints ahead and the healer can't keep up. It really becomes a problem when the DPS streaks through a mob leaving the healer alone to deal with the mob themselves. And of course those same DPS are going to wonder where the healing is when they get into trouble up ahead somewhere.

Back to tanking. When I tank I like to pull the entire room or drag mobs down the tunnel to group them together. Goes a lot smoother if you tell the group ahead of time what you are going to pull and where you are going to take them. It also helps if you make sure the group can handle pulling the entire room.

I wouldn't do this with a pug group but one guild I am in has an unwritten rule. If DPS attacks a boss before the tank taunts then we assume that means the DPS can solo him and we all will probably stand there and watch. The odds of us standing there increases as the odds of the offending DPS dying increases.

Mureel

thatlaurachick wrote: »

Exactly. I pull talons on the main group, and then chain in the outliers (if possible). It's annoying when single-target builds and pets root them out there.

This one thing: gd pets giving mobs cc immunity. Fine. Removes chains from bar and puts frickin skooma bubbler there instead.

Elsterchen

I play DD, and i like tanks. They make thinks easy for me and if they like me, they share a buff or two.

However, if i don't keep the healer-love up ... there's no-one standing behind me.

krachall

Caltrops and Hail are pretty good AOE taunts as well.

Tanks have their place, no doubt. But it’s not in random normals with 720 cp players.

shadowofnarsil

As a DPS (only) player, and in all seriousness, I firmly believe the single most important other member in the group (PUG or otherwise) is......by far...

...the tank.

I can sustain heals to stay topped up, and stay out of red to avoid the worst of the rest. I can DPS to make up for what the other DPS is/isn't doing, if needed. Frankly, and with one or two exceptions, I don’t even care if another DPS joins the group. But I cannot heal/make it rain AND be bullet sponge.

A good tank makes things flippin' glorious - I can let loose with full rotation, and it literally feels like someone blew the recess whistle.

To all you healers out there, you are of course essential to the group as well, but may you run with groups where you can stay focused on keeping the tank alive.

CaffeinatedMayhem

shadowofnarsil wrote: »

As a DPS (only) player, and in all seriousness, I firmly believe the single most important other member in the group (PUG or otherwise) is......by far...

...the tank.

I can sustain heals to stay topped up, and stay out of red to avoid the worst of the rest. I can DPS to make up for what the other DPS is/isn't doing, if needed. Frankly, and with one or two exceptions, I don’t even care if another DPS joins the group. But I cannot heal/make it rain AND be bullet sponge.

A good tank makes things flippin' glorious - I can let loose with full rotation, and it literally feels like someone blew the recess whistle.

To all you healers out there, you are of course essential to the group as well, but may you run with groups where you can stay focused on keeping the tank alive.

I like you. I wish more PUGs understood that if you respect the holy trinity, everyone has more fun, and things go MUCH better.

CaffeinatedMayhem

krachall wrote: »

Caltrops and Hail are pretty good AOE taunts as well.

Tanks have their place, no doubt. But it’s not in random normals with 720 cp players.

#1 - If you're 720, why are you running a normal?
#2 - If you're 720 and don't need a tank, why are you using the queue?

CaffeinatedMayhem

kargen27 wrote: »

I fully agree players shouldn't run ahead of the group. Healers often get left behind because DPS sprints ahead and the healer can't keep up. It really becomes a problem when the DPS streaks through a mob leaving the healer alone to deal with the mob themselves. And of course those same DPS are going to wonder where the healing is when they get into trouble up ahead somewhere.

Back to tanking. When I tank I like to pull the entire room or drag mobs down the tunnel to group them together. Goes a lot smoother if you tell the group ahead of time what you are going to pull and where you are going to take them. It also helps if you make sure the group can handle pulling the entire room.

I wouldn't do this with a pug group but one guild I am in has an unwritten rule. If DPS attacks a boss before the tank taunts then we assume that means the DPS can solo him and we all will probably stand there and watch. The odds of us standing there increases as the odds of the offending DPS dying increases.

Well yes, being able to talk to the group about the pulls would be ideal, but you rarely get that in pre-mades and never in PUGs.

It is my *permenant* rule that if a DPS pulls a boss, I will just stand there.

I'll tolerate some mob pulling if the DPS realizes I am going to group them (size depends on group DPS) and doesn't spread them out or pull 3 rooms at once. That's basic tanking.

Vaoh

Many players don’t understand how tanking adds works - they’ll just run in because base game dungeons are easy enough to where they’ll usually survive if in range of the healer until the tank catches up. Keep in mind that the majority of players in Group Finder are not very good at understanding this stuff so if they think you’re too slow they’ll just run on ahead. It’s not a big deal although I wish players wouldn’t run so far ahead of the group like some do and just die lol.

However, I also don’t think having a group that doesn’t play exactly as you want is justification for **dropping** group that’s kinda toxic if you ask me. Especially if the players are low-CP noob players who barely understand how to deal damage. Do you really think they’ll understand when they should/shouldn’t engage adds or not? I wouldn’t be surprised if the player whispering you legit had no idea why you dropped Group.

Also I’ve seen many “real” tanks queue. I’ve seen “real” DPS and “real” Healers as well. They do queue but the majority of players you’ll group with aren’t that great in general. The reason for this is because players tend to group with guildies/friends instead of using Group Finder.

ZioGio

kargen27 wrote: »

I fully agree players shouldn't run ahead of the group. Healers often get left behind because DPS sprints ahead and the healer can't keep up. It really becomes a problem when the DPS streaks through a mob leaving the healer alone to deal with the mob themselves. And of course those same DPS are going to wonder where the healing is when they get into trouble up ahead somewhere.

As a healer, this is one of my pet peeves.

Lynx7386

I cannot stand it when I'm tanking and I'm constantly having to waste my stamina to Sprint and keep up with some trigger happy dps.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Vaoh wrote: »

Many players don’t understand how tanking adds works - they’ll just run in because base game dungeons are easy enough to where they’ll usually survive if in range of the healer until the tank catches up. Keep in mind that the majority of players in Group Finder are not very good at understanding this stuff so if they think you’re too slow they’ll just run on ahead. It’s not a big deal although I wish players wouldn’t run so far ahead of the group like some do and just die lol.

However, I also don’t think having a group that doesn’t play exactly as you want is justification for **dropping** group that’s kinda toxic if you ask me. Especially if the players are low-CP noob players who barely understand how to deal damage. Do you really think they’ll understand when they should/shouldn’t engage adds or not? I wouldn’t be surprised if the player whispering you legit had no idea why you dropped Group.

Also I’ve seen many “real” tanks queue. I’ve seen “real” DPS and “real” Healers as well. They do queue but the majority of players you’ll group with aren’t that great in general. The reason for this is because players tend to group with guildies/friends instead of using Group Finder.

Right, so when a 720 runs ahead and has the boss half dead before I even get there, I should just stand around? No thanks. Why is it toxic to drop when the group does not need or want a tank? I'm just supposed to cheer them on? No thanks.
You seem to think I've never run a PUG before... I've run so many that I only do so for guildies and friends.

Mureel

Lynx7386 wrote: »

I cannot stand it when I'm tanking and I'm constantly having to waste my stamina to Sprint and keep up with some trigger happy dps.

Yeah I just don't - *** em. I just let them roll on.

Vaoh

thatlaurachick wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Many players don’t understand how tanking adds works - they’ll just run in because base game dungeons are easy enough to where they’ll usually survive if in range of the healer until the tank catches up. Keep in mind that the majority of players in Group Finder are not very good at understanding this stuff so if they think you’re too slow they’ll just run on ahead. It’s not a big deal although I wish players wouldn’t run so far ahead of the group like some do and just die lol.

However, I also don’t think having a group that doesn’t play exactly as you want is justification for **dropping** group that’s kinda toxic if you ask me. Especially if the players are low-CP noob players who barely understand how to deal damage. Do you really think they’ll understand when they should/shouldn’t engage adds or not? I wouldn’t be surprised if the player whispering you legit had no idea why you dropped Group.

Also I’ve seen many “real” tanks queue. I’ve seen “real” DPS and “real” Healers as well. They do queue but the majority of players you’ll group with aren’t that great in general. The reason for this is because players tend to group with guildies/friends instead of using Group Finder.

Right, so when a 720 runs ahead and has the boss half dead before I even get there, I should just stand around? No thanks. Why is it toxic to drop when the group does not need or want a tank? I'm just supposed to cheer them on? No thanks.
You seem to think I've never run a PUG before... I've run so many that I only do so for guildies and friends.

I was getting the impression you would drop Group even if the players doing this were noobies who didn’t know any better. In that situation I’d say it’s unfair since they themselves might not even understand what the problem is.

You never made this clear in your post and even mentioned them trying to fight the boss in a bad spot, so I didn’t think we were talking about CP720s here who understood what they were doing.

If we’re talking about a max level doing this and basically ignoring the tank altogether then yeah, I’d be frustrated too and wouldn’t blame you for dropping Group.

Icy_Waffles

As a tank... if you are gonna lead... then LEAD. Move quickly. That being said, dps running around pulling and then having enemies reset etc is ridiculous. Leaves the group with slower times than running together

josiahva

Vaoh wrote: »

Many players don’t understand how tanking adds works - they’ll just run in because base game dungeons are easy enough to where they’ll usually survive if in range of the healer until the tank catches up. Keep in mind that the majority of players in Group Finder are not very good at understanding this stuff so if they think you’re too slow they’ll just run on ahead. It’s not a big deal although I wish players wouldn’t run so far ahead of the group like some do and just die lol.

However, I also don’t think having a group that doesn’t play exactly as you want is justification for **dropping** group that’s kinda toxic if you ask me. Especially if the players are low-CP noob players who barely understand how to deal damage. Do you really think they’ll understand when they should/shouldn’t engage adds or not? I wouldn’t be surprised if the player whispering you legit had no idea why you dropped Group.

Also I’ve seen many “real” tanks queue. I’ve seen “real” DPS and “real” Healers as well. They do queue but the majority of players you’ll group with aren’t that great in general. The reason for this is because players tend to group with guildies/friends instead of using Group Finder.

This is the problem though: Some hero DPS runs ahead and aggroes the mob, then I have to spend precious resources and time cleaning up after this DPS, where if he just let me run in first, the ads would all be neatly grouped and aggroed on me like they should be, not to mention if he is a sorc and has the scap out, that stupid scamp will INVARIABLY target and stun some ranged ad so I cant chains them into the group for 4 seconds...the only thing I hate worse than the stupid stunning scamp is when a DK DPS actually has leap slotted as an ultimate in PVE...its like hitting the reset button on an entire mob

Mureel

Icy_Waffles wrote: »

As a tank... if you are gonna lead... then LEAD. Move quickly. That being said, dps running around pulling and then having enemies reset etc is ridiculous. Leaves the group with slower times than running together

Yeah but when you got Sorcs spamming Lightning Form (minor or major expedition), NB spamming Path or speeding in any other way - like wtf? I'm not about to sprint my stam off like that. If they're that awesome they can go head on ;-) Fine by me. (and I mean it, go right ahead!)

I (as tank) move on as soon as boss is down, chain pull (chain as in in a group, not all with chains lol) to a big stack at the end of the 'mob gauntlet', chain stragglers then onto boss. I will always pull as many as possible together at the end - I don't think doing the mobs in small clumps is wise/best. Prefer to just stack them all. Then boss. Rinse Repeat.

No need to stand there dorking about, but no need to SPRINT either. If you wanna sprint, go right ahead. Just don't die because then this is the circumstance where I will tbag clamslam.

Mureel

Icy_Waffles wrote: »

As a tank... if you are gonna lead... then LEAD. Move quickly. That being said, dps running around pulling and then having enemies reset etc is ridiculous. Leaves the group with slower times than running together

Yeah but when you got Sorcs spamming Lightning Form (minor or major expedition), NB spamming Path or speeding in any other way - like wtf? I'm not about to sprint my stam off like that. If they're that awesome they can go head on ;-) Fine by me. (and I mean it, go right ahead!)

I (as tank) move on as soon as boss is down, chain pull (chain as in in a group, not all with chains lol) to a big stack at the end of the 'mob gauntlet', chain stragglers then onto boss. I will always pull as many as possible together at the end - I don't think doing the mobs in small clumps is wise/best. Prefer to just stack them all. Then boss. Rinse Repeat.

No need to stand there dorking about, but no need to SPRINT either. If you wanna sprint, go right ahead. Just don't die because then this is the circumstance where I will tbag clamslam.

r3turn2s3nd3r

Mureel wrote: »

thatlaurachick wrote: »

Exactly. I pull talons on the main group, and then chain in the outliers (if possible). It's annoying when single-target builds and pets root them out there.

This one thing: gd pets giving mobs cc immunity. Fine. Removes chains from bar and puts frickin skooma bubbler there instead.

Yep, annoys tanks to no end. However, a good pet sorc will:

1. Generally have killed all the trash before the final pet ticks the stun
2. Will know to recast pet just before the stun if trash still needs work, thus avoiding the cc immunity.

kargen27

thatlaurachick wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I fully agree players shouldn't run ahead of the group. Healers often get left behind because DPS sprints ahead and the healer can't keep up. It really becomes a problem when the DPS streaks through a mob leaving the healer alone to deal with the mob themselves. And of course those same DPS are going to wonder where the healing is when they get into trouble up ahead somewhere.

Back to tanking. When I tank I like to pull the entire room or drag mobs down the tunnel to group them together. Goes a lot smoother if you tell the group ahead of time what you are going to pull and where you are going to take them. It also helps if you make sure the group can handle pulling the entire room.

I wouldn't do this with a pug group but one guild I am in has an unwritten rule. If DPS attacks a boss before the tank taunts then we assume that means the DPS can solo him and we all will probably stand there and watch. The odds of us standing there increases as the odds of the offending DPS dying increases.

Well yes, being able to talk to the group about the pulls would be ideal, but you rarely get that in pre-mades and never in PUGs.

It is my *permenant* rule that if a DPS pulls a boss, I will just stand there.

I'll tolerate some mob pulling if the DPS realizes I am going to group them (size depends on group DPS) and doesn't spread them out or pull 3 rooms at once. That's basic tanking.

I've got lucky with some pug groups while tanking. At the start I put in group chat something like wait here and I'll bring everything to you or don't attack until we are at the back and I'll bring all the mobs together. If they listen once they see how much easier it is and let me start each fight. If they don't listen then I go along and do what I can to help. I'm really forgiving with pug groups. In fact I do the random groups for a change of pace. I have guild mates I run with that all know what I am going to do and I know what they are going to do. We can all play every role depending on what character we bring. Makes things kind of routine. Sometimes it is fun to jump into a random group knowing things are going to go astray. I do try at the beginning to say something so I know what kind of group I am running with.

Did one random normal on my healer and on two of the bosses I kept everybody alive, had the boss on me the entire time and did over 60% of the damage. Wouldn't want to do that every time but it was a blast on that run. I'd much rather do that than just chase after the DPS tossing them out a buff when I catch up as they are finishing things off.

krachall

thatlaurachick wrote: »

krachall wrote: »

Caltrops and Hail are pretty good AOE taunts as well.

Tanks have their place, no doubt. But it’s not in random normals with 720 cp players.

#1 - If you're 720, why are you running a normal?
#2 - If you're 720 and don't need a tank, why are you using the queue?

No faster way to level a new skill line.

Who said anything about a queue? And what about CP 720 eliminates the need for a queue anyway?

Some really irrelevant comments there. Lol

Lynx7386

Part of the issue does lie with game content/design and difficulty (or lack thereof). I remember tanking in Warcraft where every enemy in a group could smash dps or healers easily, and thus necessitated crowd control and tanking.

Here many of the enemies are too easy and not dangerous enough, and that diminishes the value of the tank and healer roles. I wish we'd see more dungeons with trash packs that were lethal to the dps - but it won't happen, because tanks in eso are by design not much tougher than dps characters (and that imo is largely due to pvp).

Mureel

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Part of the issue does lie with game content/design and difficulty (or lack thereof). I remember tanking in Warcraft where every enemy in a group could smash dps or healers easily, and thus necessitated crowd control and tanking.

Here many of the enemies are too easy and not dangerous enough, and that diminishes the value of the tank and healer roles. I wish we'd see more dungeons with trash packs that were lethal to the dps - but it won't happen, because tanks in eso are by design not much tougher than dps characters (and that imo is largely due to pvp).

Yes this and like ONE SHOT or *nearly harmless* mechanics because too much self-heals/too strong shields - esp in dungeons - basically making healers obsolete too.

Cronopoly

I use my Igneous/Shield DK Tank for teaching non DLC Vet Dungeons to friends and guildies as I can carry a group easily when they have little to no acceptable DPS.

I'm patient as I'm an old dog, but I understand how others have time constraints and cannot spend the time to teach a sub 200CP, the mechanics in most of the 4-man dungeons. I even advise those that are bow or 2H centric, the best way to help the Group if I notice they are not optimally using their skills...If they are unlocked XD.

And yes I wish Snipe would grey out on DPS skill bars in 4mans lol....

Aebaradath

thatlaurachick wrote: »

krachall wrote: »

Caltrops and Hail are pretty good AOE taunts as well.

Tanks have their place, no doubt. But it’s not in random normals with 720 cp players.

#1 - If you're 720, why are you running a normal?
#2 - If you're 720 and don't need a tank, why are you using the queue?

Oooh! I love people like you. Asking why 720's would run a normal. What do you believe they should do?

Vet only? Ahahahahahahaha.