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15min Penalties due to other's improper use of Group Finder

clareno88
clareno88
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I don't personally know what the resolution to this would be on a technical standpoint, nonetheless I thought it necessary to mention my experience: It's really inconvenient when a dps queues as Healer or Tank in the Activity Finder dungeon queues. Most dungeons, this can be toughed out if everyone is capped and such, but sometimes the other members of the group we get aren't capped, or more importantly, are not prepared to run without one of those important support roles (eg; Healer or Tank). These "false queue" players I'm referencing don't provide any essence of the role they selected. And they only select 1 role vs all 3, (meaning the false queue is intentional), and usually they queue with a friend, making the "Vote to kick" option unviable. On top of that, we're penalized with "queuing too recently" and having a cooldown to requeue set on us for leaving a group that met the aforementioned criteria. So in a nutshell, the people who are using group finder as intended are the ones being penalized by this predicament and the penalty cooldown for requeuing that comes with it.

I would also request there be no banter on this thread about how anyone in this predicament needs to get better at what they do, or anything derogatory like that. This thread is not for that, please take that commentary elsewhere. Thanks!

UPDATE: This thread is more about the 15min penalty resulting from my aformentioned example and other people's similar examples, on people queuing as something they are not, aka "False Queues".
Edited by clareno88 on April 30, 2018 7:06PM
  • FearlessOne_2014
    FearlessOne_2014
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    The general consensus is. If you queue for random members, than you get what you get. If you don't like it. Than don't use the dungeon finder to find PUGs.

    I disagree with that however that seems to be the general thought on that.

    Me personally, I believe ZOS should just get rid of the 15 min timer for non random group finder dungeons. That way you are not punished by others being inconsiderate.

    However it all just boils down to you not PUGing.
    Edited by FearlessOne_2014 on April 29, 2018 8:02PM
  • redspecter23
    redspecter23
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    It's a pug. Sometimes people are inconsiderate and will queue for roles they can't fill. Sometimes players are just absolutely not prepared for the content they queue for, regardless of role and sometimes the group just comes together really well. It's a roll of the dice. Random chance at what you get. The only way to remove the RNG is to not group with random players. ZOS can lay down all the rules and requirements they want. You'll still be pulling from a random group of players, many of them just not capable of pulling their weight for whatever reason.

    Short answer, just run with a premade group of friends/guildmates or even form the group from zone and remove the random element.
    Edited by redspecter23 on April 29, 2018 8:06PM
  • SugaComa
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    Simple solution

    Skills must reflect the role you queued for once in if you change skills to DD from say tank a message displays saying no tank in group do you want to continue

    If group selects yes you play on if groups selects no then a timer starts and the tank has to remove assign skills or they get removed for another tank to queue in
  • Taleof2Cities
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    The general consensus is. If you queue for random members, than you get what you get. If you don't like it. Than don't use the dungeon finder to find PUGs.

    However it all just boils down to you not PUGing.

    ^This.^
  • redspecter23
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    SugaComa wrote: »
    Simple solution

    Skills must reflect the role you queued for once in if you change skills to DD from say tank a message displays saying no tank in group do you want to continue

    If group selects yes you play on if groups selects no then a timer starts and the tank has to remove assign skills or they get removed for another tank to queue in

    Not a horrible solution, however, the kind of person that would queue as a fake tank is also the kind of person who will put a taunt on their bar and just not use it. The group would still have to resort to a vote to kick just as they would currently.
  • VaranisArano
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    I tend toward the opinion that if you use the random groupfinder, you choose the roles you can do. You select the role, you assume the responsibility to fill it.

    Some people prefer to use the tank or healer slot merely as a route to a quick queue and ignore that responsibility. That sometimes works fine in groups where everyone is self-sufficient but mostly makes for frustrating experiences for people who naturally expect that when they queued asking for a group with a tank or a healer that they would get an actual tank or healer.
  • disintegr8
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    There will always be people finding ways to circumvent the wait by queuing as a tank or healer. It doesn't matter what they change to try and prevent it.

    Set a minimum health or resistance for a tank, people will carry health enchanted heavy gear and eat health buff food to get in, only to change back once in the dungeon. How do you check for healer - maybe low damage or having a resto staff? Both not really accurate tests and can easily be manipulated to gain entry and change back when in.

    Even the introduction of 'license test' type character based achievements can be worked around. Kit yourself up as a healer to get the healer tick and swap everything around once done.

    I choose to only pug for normal dungeons on self sufficient builds that can self heal and survive a hit. If I am on with a friend, we more often 2 man normals. Vet dungeons are best done in groups you know.
    Australian on PS4 NA server.
    Everyone's entitled to an opinion.
  • Lynx7386
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    This is why I mostly play self healing tanks these days. No matter who i get grouped with I have the two important roles covered myself
    PS4 / NA
    M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
    Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
    Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
    Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
    Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
  • Kikke
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    I que as a tank or healer on my DD magsorc.

    Why? Because I can tank/heal and DD the dungeons better on my 1 toon then 3 scrubs can do on theirs.
    Tho, was it normal or veteran? =)
    Cleared Trials:
    - vAA HM - vHRC HM - vSO HM - vMoL HM - vHoF HM - vAS HM - vCR HM -

    "The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step, and a lot of bitching."
    -Someone said it, I guess.
  • FrancisCrawford
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    I queued as a genuine healer -- on my best magplar character -- for vet Blessed Crucible this weekend. In the first fight the giant ran around madly. I politely asked whether anybody was going to taunt bosses. After that fight, the tank did so religiously. He never chained any adds, but he did taunt bosses.

    We also had a stam sorc DPS who spammed Snipe/Wrecking Blow.

    This all went smoothly until the final boss. Some genius selected HM. After a couple of wipes I suggested non-HM.

    I never actually mentioned this was my first time doing the dungeon as vet. :) I've done it many times on normal, but 'Id actually never had to bother learning the Lava Queen's tell on the lava starburst attack ...

    We eventually succeeded, but only because the other DPS was awesome.


    I then reran the dungeon in what turned out to be a four-sorcerer group. We did much better, and prevailed in HM, although there were a few deaths where somebody got careless, especially when the healer (me) still didn't know how to foretell the lava shots. :)
    Edited by FrancisCrawford on April 30, 2018 12:49AM
  • Lynx7386
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    Yesterday I ran vet direfrost and our healer was a dual wielding cp98 templar. He died a half dozen times during drodda and we finally just stopped reviving him, I healed the majority of the fight as the tank.
    PS4 / NA
    M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
    Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
    Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
    Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
    Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
  • clareno88
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    After reading everyone's replies, I personally like the solution provided by @FearlessOne_2014 — "ZOS should just get rid of the 15 min timer for non random group finder dungeons. That way you are not punished by others being inconsiderate." It's a simple fix.

    And of course you never know what you're going to get with random groups, it's kind of fun in that way, just not when roles aren't being upheld to the point that the group is struggling and gets stuck. Funny enough, most of the people I play with today, I met through Group Finder. And while it is idealistic thinking no doubt, I just wish players would only select the roles they are able to fulfill, like @VaranisArano wrote, "I tend toward the opinion that if you use the random groupfinder, you choose the roles you can do. You select the role, you assume the responsibility to fill it."

    At the end, yes, we cannot control what people will do and there is no perfect way to screen for each role and players will continue to find loopholes time and time again. So the most realistic thing to do, would be to remove that 15 minute timer so players using group finder as intended aren't punished with penalties.

    I hope ZOS takes the time to consider the ideas made on this thread. :/
  • clareno88
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    Also, in case anyone initially misunderstood my view; I don't mind if someone isn't that great at their role, we all start somewhere and experiencing content helps us refine our techniques and learn. However, what I do mind are people who have no intention of fulfilling the role they selected — they're not bad at the role, they are utterly not even attempting it. A quicker queue than queuing as a dps, at the price of making the rest of the group struggle for it. That's the sort of player that bothers me.
  • phaneub17_ESO
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    I'm okay with fake tanks and healers in random normal dungeons, I generally end up tanking the whole thing myself as either a DPS or Healer when not on my tanks anyway. I generally outpace them in damage which ends up being my unintentional taunt, I have enough self heals and shields to keep myself alive or anyone else for that matter.

    Once you learn to play the game this way, it adds more fun to it rather than frustration. All my healers are one bar DPS and one bar full on healing, its fun not knowing what's going to happen. Maybe this run will be no tank, or that run has no actual healer when I get picked as DPS, maybe they're all scrubs!! It's fun when you can do it all yourself, why am I here at all? I'm here for the random dungeon daily XP and mail rewards otherwise I would run it solo. All my tanks are the same way, self-reliant in healing and damage too in case I can't rely on someone else; I don't bother running my Stamina characters through dungeons.
  • clareno88
    clareno88
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    I'm okay with fake tanks and healers in random normal dungeons, I generally end up tanking the whole thing myself as either a DPS or Healer when not on my tanks anyway. I generally outpace them in damage which ends up being my unintentional taunt, I have enough self heals and shields to keep myself alive or anyone else for that matter.

    Once you learn to play the game this way, it adds more fun to it rather than frustration. All my healers are one bar DPS and one bar full on healing, its fun not knowing what's going to happen. Maybe this run will be no tank, or that run has no actual healer when I get picked as DPS, maybe they're all scrubs!! It's fun when you can do it all yourself, why am I here at all? I'm here for the random dungeon daily XP and mail rewards otherwise I would run it solo. All my tanks are the same way, self-reliant in healing and damage too in case I can't rely on someone else; I don't bother running my Stamina characters through dungeons.

    That's all fine and dandy, until it's something like Veteran Fang Lair, lol. :P

    I think the majority find random normals to be easy enough to run regardless of group composition, or even without full groups. The problem lies in the more difficult veteran content, it's there that the different roles become more "noticeable" and contrasted. And primarily, the fact that there's a penalty for it by leaving a group that just isn't working out because of some players false queueing intentionally.
    Edited by clareno88 on April 30, 2018 5:48AM
  • Beardimus
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    It depends. If they a L10 and in fake role it can be an issue.

    If the CP CAP and can burn thru the dungeon it doesn't matter.

    So you have to give it to first boss to see if there is an impact
    Xbox One | EU | EP
    Beardimus : VR16 (810CP) Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
    Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-2018 & Sheogorath 05-2019
    1st Emperor of Ravenwatch
    Alts - - for the Lolz
    Archimus : Bosmer Thief / Archer / Werewolf
    Orcimus : Fat drunk Orc battlefield 1st aider
    Scalimus - Argonian Sorc Healer / Pet master

    Fighting small scale with : The SAXON Guild
    Fighting with [PvP] : The Undaunted Wolves
    Trading Guilds : TradersOfNirn | FourSquareTraders

    Xbox One | NA | EP
    Bëardimus : L43 Dunmer Magsorc / BG
    Heals-With-Pets : CP160+ Argonian Sorc PvP / BG Healer
    Nordimus : CP160+ Stamsorc
    Beardimus le 13iem : L28 Dunmet Magsorc Icereach
  • GeorgeBlack
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    "Improper use"

    Get a grip.
    Make friends or join a guild.
  • exiars10
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    Shocking news - people who abuse dungeon finder with fake roles are writing in this and every other similar thread how is that all right. I guess you cut lines in markets, and want everything to revolve around you as you are exceptional.

    If I get you in my group, vote to kick is incoming 100% after I explain we have fake role and as I am mostly highest CP otehr group members listen so you get kicked if you are not paired. I have zero tolerance for fake tanks. Fake healers have a chance if they do are above average DPS (20k+) and dungeon is enough easy so heal is barely necessary.
    If my vote to kick fail I just leave. No way I'm going to waste my time.
    "Improper use"

    Get a grip.
    Make friends or join a guild.
    No - you want to cut finding time as DD by gaming the system. Go play as tank and/or healer if you want instant play.
    I don't play ESO since 15.06. because Cyrodiil is broken since Summerset (PvE isn't much better, too)...

    Aldmeri Dominion (PC Europe via Steam)

    The cowardly Wood Elves are best noted for their unwillingness to engage in a face-to-face attack; a Bosmer will strike at you from every side except the front. You won't cross swords with a Bosmer, but you might catch an arrow in the throat. Be wary in forests and jungles, and watch your back.
  • sudaki_eso
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    Are we talking about vet or normal?
    Fake tank/healers on normal are not a big problem, it can get messy if you pug vet content and got "fakes" in your group.
    PS4 EU - StamDK
  • GeorgeBlack
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    exiars10 wrote: »
    Shocking news - people who abuse dungeon finder with fake roles are writing in this and every other similar thread how is that all right. I guess you cut lines in markets, and want everything to revolve around you as you are exceptional.

    If I get you in my group, vote to kick is incoming 100% after I explain we have fake role and as I am mostly highest CP otehr group members listen so you get kicked if you are not paired. I have zero tolerance for fake tanks. Fake healers have a chance if they do are above average DPS (20k+) and dungeon is enough easy so heal is barely necessary.
    If my vote to kick fail I just leave. No way I'm going to waste my time.
    "Improper use"

    Get a grip.
    Make friends or join a guild.
    No - you want to cut finding time as DD by gaming the system. Go play as tank and/or healer if you want instant play.

    I am a tank
    I also join PvE guilds and I am not looking to report players for silly things
    Edited by GeorgeBlack on April 30, 2018 10:28AM
  • Apache_Kid
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    It really depends on what content you were running when this happened. Was it normal Fungal Grotto 1 or vet Coa II?

    Context matters in these situations...
  • SupremeRissole
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    Fake dps is worse IMO. I would rather 4 dps roll dodging one shots than a reso staff dps spamming streak.
  • clareno88
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    "Improper use"

    Get a grip.
    Make friends or join a guild.

    You're funny, group finder is an option for making friends as well. And one I've made many friends in to date, I mentioned that in an earlier comment. This thread is not a complaining thread, I'm unsure why you're responding to it as if is one.

    1. I posted an experience so that everyone would have an example of what I was speaking on.
    2. I gave a concise summary "in a nutshell" explaining the thread's predicament.

    I would appreciate it if you refrained from making any further posts, your snide responses are making our thread cluttered. Thanks in advance.
  • clareno88
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    Recentering the thread, here's the summarized part of my original post:

    "So in a nutshell, the people who are using group finder as intended are the ones being penalized by this predicament and the penalty cooldown for requeuing that comes with it."
  • clareno88
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    Fake dps is worse IMO. I would rather 4 dps roll dodging one shots than a reso staff dps spamming streak.

    How about in Vet Bloodroot Forge?
  • clareno88
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    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    It really depends on what content you were running when this happened. Was it normal Fungal Grotto 1 or vet Coa II?

    Context matters in these situations...

    We're talking generalized, but I suppose it would be geared more towards veteran content. But even more importantly, the 15 minute cooldown timer.
    Edited by clareno88 on April 30, 2018 7:15PM
  • clareno88
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    exiars10 wrote: »
    Shocking news - people who abuse dungeon finder with fake roles are writing in this and every other similar thread how is that all right. I guess you cut lines in markets, and want everything to revolve around you as you are exceptional.

    If I get you in my group, vote to kick is incoming 100% after I explain we have fake role and as I am mostly highest CP otehr group members listen so you get kicked if you are not paired. I have zero tolerance for fake tanks. Fake healers have a chance if they do are above average DPS (20k+) and dungeon is enough easy so heal is barely necessary.
    If my vote to kick fail I just leave. No way I'm going to waste my time.
    "Improper use"

    Get a grip.
    Make friends or join a guild.
    No - you want to cut finding time as DD by gaming the system. Go play as tank and/or healer if you want instant play.

    I am a tank
    I also join PvE guilds and I am not looking to report players for silly things

    No one is reporting anyone. Have you never heard of people coming together to have a constructive discussion on a relateable subject before?
  • BaneOfBattler
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    Try to carry on, i always carry.
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