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So how much better NB tanks will be with the next Update ?

Zordrage
Zordrage
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i mean they get a stealth morph that removes invis instead heals them for 30%+ of their total health needs to count something no ?
  • datgladiatah
    datgladiatah
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    Also the shadow ult allows for more mobility with major protection, so that's nice. Not as nice as running warhorn i suppose.

    They're already good at everything except permablock sustain. That's more tricky but they have tools. I love magicka sap tanking tho cause the self healing is so high.
  • Lynx7386
    Lynx7386
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    Will be entirely based on how good meditation is for sustain
    PS4 / NA
    M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
    Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
    Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
    Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
    Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
  • ShadowMonarch
    ShadowMonarch
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    Permablock sucks for it cause siphon strikes (only sustain ability) (and merc resolve) both proc from light attacks.
  • ccfeeling
    ccfeeling
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    Dk is still the world best tank class in eso, no doubt.
    Nb tank finally has an urgent healing skill , 33% in 3 seconds, it's good, we can save myself at worst moment without healer :smile:
  • olsborg
    olsborg
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    The minor protection lasts too short. The heal is meh. (Dark cloak thingie)
    Altmer Sorceror, magicka
    Bosmer Nightblade, stamina.
    Imperial Templar, stamina
    Redguard Warden, stamina

    Aldmeri Dominion!
    PC EU
    PvP only
  • actosh
    actosh
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    Potion cd glyphs to reduce it to 21 sec with infused jewelry and just wear alkosh/torugs/ monsterset of your choice they all suck kinda.

    You will have the needed debuff sets and with catalyst u get a ult gen like wearing tavas or werewolfhide stuff.
    Basicly u can drop a horn every 36-44 seconds.

    Thats nb´s only advantage in summerset, and i say that as a long time nb tank (trials and hm and stuff like that).

    In addition to that we get a pull "Silver leash" a aoe cc (prsijic time freeze) more suitable for dungeons and pull just for a few raids ^^

    Healing skill is pretty good since it frees up some bar space :smile:
    Edited by actosh on April 29, 2018 12:01PM
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
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    The improvements are there but the direction of NB tanking has shifted heavily from its previous iteration vastly. Originally, NB tanking was able to deal decent amounts of damage with Strife, Path and Sap and build up globs of Ultimate at a rate superior than other classes. However, the recent changes to NB's toolkit, as well as the introduction of more outside resources for tanking has altered this in a couple of ways.

    Our sustain is worse than before. Sad truth is that, between the increased cost of Strife, the inclusion of Dark Cloak in our toolkit among other possible skills (Time Stop and Silver Leash) and the fact our current sustain tools are still insufficient, our sustain is something that needs to be seriously looked at. While chugging pots on CD with Potion enchanted Infused Jewelry has helped in sustain as well as Ultimate building, it's just really limiting as well. We give up practically any form of damage we had just to sustain ourselves and "spam" Warhorn every 30-45 seconds.

    Strife is practically useless now due to the cost increase. It's really hard to try and keep Transfer on CD using it, especially when it hits for crap after trading away any jewelry traits/enchants that could have potentially boosted its damage for more sustain and because Dark Cloak heals for more, it doesn't really serve much use now.

    On the plus side, we got more tools to play with now. I've personally have found it far too expensive to maintain but a Stamina Tank might find great use in Silver Leash. Time Stop is a godsend after years of crap CC on NB Tanks that I just can't see myself ever removing it. Shade is an improvement and does help in AoE situations, and while not as reliable as Talons, it doesn't feel like a waste of space now either.

    Overall, it's improved but needs more work in general.
    Argonian forever
  • datgladiatah
    datgladiatah
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    Would Sap Tanking be more efficient with an ice staff instead? While your damage would still get gimped using infused potion cost enchants, you could run more of a mix of health and magicka while not putting anything into stamina and you may be able to keep what made the sap tank strong. I don't know if it was really 1hs that made sap tanking as much as hybrid magicka pools. And you could use siphoning attacks instead of leeching, giving you more ability to spam spells and block. Idk.
  • aeowulf
    aeowulf
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    More efficient in some ways, less in others. The traditional sap tank would have a stamina resource drain through blocking, and magicka one through sap essence. Both could drain at roughly the same rate, and both could be 'managed' through random luck.

    It <may> be possible to bring back a poorer version of the sap tank using shield wall & immovable, but it's not been done to my knowledge, but you're unlikely to be perma blocking...

    Unfortunately, becuase DK tanks can easily wear the best support sets & run warhorn, other classes have to be able to wear the best support sets & run warhorn. Otherwise they are (understandably) desired less in a group. Half the issue with any non-dk tank is community perception, the other half the problem is DK's are so common people know exactly what to expect and their playstyle is now dk-assumed, rather than having to adjust slightly to accomdate other classes. The sap tank was good because it was able to be very self sufficient.

    Even if NB suddenly became the best tanks overnight, it would take 6 months before the community accepted non-DK. Wardens took ages and they are very close to DK, if not better in some regards.

    Summerset is giving us cloak, but so many of our other tank-used skills are getting nerfed it's crazy.
    Edited by aeowulf on April 30, 2018 2:51PM
  • LittlePinkDot
    LittlePinkDot
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    well stamblade has great sustain. Why not some kind of a SnB shield wall tank?
  • Brrrofski
    Brrrofski
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    Would Sap Tanking be more efficient with an ice staff instead? While your damage would still get gimped using infused potion cost enchants, you could run more of a mix of health and magicka while not putting anything into stamina and you may be able to keep what made the sap tank strong. I don't know if it was really 1hs that made sap tanking as much as hybrid magicka pools. And you could use siphoning attacks instead of leeching, giving you more ability to spam spells and block. Idk.

    Well that's what I do. It's only for 4 man dungeons though. Mainly for pugs so if the dps is bad I can at least help (it pulls 15k dps). So support sets are a bit meh as pugs don't always make use of them.

    29k health, 34k magica, 19k Stam.
    1400 mag recovery, 957 Stam recovery
    2.8k spell damage (without dungeon buff), 32% crit

    I run 1 Kena, 1 shadowrend, 5 shackle breaker, 5 bloodthorn touch (4 on ice staff bar). I don't have the passive that causes block to use magica - still uses Stam on my ice staff bar.

    I run ele drain for added magica sustain and wall of elements (roots a few enemies sometimes).

    With leeching strikes and bloodthorn I have plenty of Stam. I don't permanent block, but block plenty.

    Path, funnel, devouring swarm and sap give plenty of healing. I'll probably not change my build, maybe triune some jewellery.
    Edited by Brrrofski on May 1, 2018 7:32AM
    Xbox One EU
  • aeowulf
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    well stamblade has great sustain. Why not some kind of a SnB shield wall tank?

    Because it's not war horn :( Shield wall is good, but it's also no block. Some stuff ignores it (mostly from bosses) & can only be blocked by a right click block.

    Stamblade has good sustain due to having a rotation that includes light attacks literally every second. It's even better for magblade as they will land more light attacks. Unfortuntely there is no NB tank friendly sustain in their class skills.

    Honstly, I think war horn should be brought down a peg or two. It's really far too good and whilst it exists in it's current form, it leaves no place for alternatives. (Which is why the current PTS change to bolstering darkness is completely irrelevant for NB unless it makes it better than horn, which in turn brings balance issues. It should give a DPS buff if ZoS expect DPS to go and collect it. The PTS change is actually a 50% nerf to NB tankiness...)
    Edited by aeowulf on May 1, 2018 9:32AM
  • jypcy
    jypcy
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    aeowulf wrote: »
    (Which is why the current PTS change to bolstering darkness is completely irrelevant for NB unless it makes it better than horn, which in turn brings balance issues. It should give a DPS buff if ZoS expect DPS to go and collect it. The PTS change is actually a 50% nerf to NB tankiness...)

    Well it’s not really 50% to tankiness... 50% to the skill sure but the extra 30% mitigation that’s being removed wouldn’t amount to quite that much after other forms of mitigation. I don’t have precise values of the top of my head (and it would be a factor of the build) but I’d guess it’d be under 10% mitigation (edit: in terms of overall tankiness) for virtually all heavy armor tank builds. There are threads that can get more into the weeds of the math here.

    OP: it kind of depends how you define better. Better because they get more tools to play with? For sure. Better in terms of viability? Already perfectly viable, so kind of moot, but sure; the tools might make them easier to play in various encounters. Better in terms of where they fall relative to other class’ tanks? Probably not. Possibly even knocked down a peg due to other class’ new toys but from what I’ve seen im guessing all will stay in the same standings as in current. Better as a sap tank build? I don’t think so relative to the glory days, but it sounds like people in this thread are also making that sort of idea work in current.

    Am I looking forward to the changes and think they’ll be even more fun to play? Absolutely.
    Edited by jypcy on May 1, 2018 3:02PM
  • LittlePinkDot
    LittlePinkDot
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    aeowulf wrote: »
    well stamblade has great sustain. Why not some kind of a SnB shield wall tank?

    Because it's not war horn :( Shield wall is good, but it's also no block. Some stuff ignores it (mostly from bosses) & can only be blocked by a right click block.

    Stamblade has good sustain due to having a rotation that includes light attacks literally every second. It's even better for magblade as they will land more light attacks. Unfortuntely there is no NB tank friendly sustain in their class skills.

    Honstly, I think war horn should be brought down a peg or two. It's really far too good and whilst it exists in it's current form, it leaves no place for alternatives. (Which is why the current PTS change to bolstering darkness is completely irrelevant for NB unless it makes it better than horn, which in turn brings balance issues. It should give a DPS buff if ZoS expect DPS to go and collect it. The PTS change is actually a 50% nerf to NB tankiness...)

    How well do you think the new dark cloak heal is going to be? And how much health would you need to make it good? I was originally 2H with DW, but when I found out about the new cloak I figured I could afford to lose Rally since flying blade gives major brutality and I already have vigor.
    Im leveling up my SnB on my stamblade, havent got that skill line to level 50 yet, so no Shield wall yet. But I would like to use her for both pvp and pve and only change a couple skills.
    How good is SnB with medium armour in your opinion?
    In pvp if I pop spell wall+ fear I can switch to DW front bar which is all offense with offensive medium armour sets I should be able to do alot of damage.
    Ive only done normal dungeons so far. I figured I could do something similar except without fear. Instead maybe reverberating bash that has major defile. And I switch out Blood craze for steel tornado. My CP will always be organized to be pvp though.
  • jypcy
    jypcy
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    @LittlePinkDot dark cloak heal is good for any situation you need a chunk of healing quickly. I haven’t touched rally in years so not sure what tooltip values on that look like, but it could potentially be a bigger heal on recast than dark cloak. With a 40k health tank you get about a 4K heal every second with dark cloak. For my stamblade with about 40k stamina I think resolving vigor was ticking for 2.5-3k every second. I’m guessing your build would fall somewhere in between there, but if you’re just using each for emergency heals, vigor becomes a better hot as soon as it ticks for more than 10% if your health each tick, otherwise dark cloak is better, and rally still probably offers the best single tick heal on expiration/recast.
    Snb with medium armor is fine for a pve tank in normal dungeons and many vet dungeons as well, you just need to know which hits to dodge instead of block due to having lower resists.
    Defile isn’t a useful debuff for pve, so I wouldn’t recommend reverberating bash for that purpose.
  • LittlePinkDot
    LittlePinkDot
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    jypcy wrote: »
    @LittlePinkDot dark cloak heal is good for any situation you need a chunk of healing quickly. I haven’t touched rally in years so not sure what tooltip values on that look like, but it could potentially be a bigger heal on recast than dark cloak. With a 40k health tank you get about a 4K heal every second with dark cloak. For my stamblade with about 40k stamina I think resolving vigor was ticking for 2.5-3k every second. I’m guessing your build would fall somewhere in between there, but if you’re just using each for emergency heals, vigor becomes a better hot as soon as it ticks for more than 10% if your health each tick, otherwise dark cloak is better, and rally still probably offers the best single tick heal on expiration/recast.
    Snb with medium armor is fine for a pve tank in normal dungeons and many vet dungeons as well, you just need to know which hits to dodge instead of block due to having lower resists.
    Defile isn’t a useful debuff for pve, so I wouldn’t recommend reverberating bash for that purpose.

    So you actually put attribute points into health?
    I dont have enough epic quality items yet or a monster helm set to know what stats are going to look like when shes actually finished. But right now I have 16k health. Its hard to imagine where Im going to get more health from except from changing enchants on armour from stam to health. But I would fall below 30k stam if I did that.....
    Rally is good but I didnt want to be forced to use 2H. Theres something wrong when quite literally every stam character in pvp uses 2H. Trying to go against the grain. Was thinking either mighty Chudan or Bloodspawn to increase resistances.
    Edited by LittlePinkDot on May 1, 2018 10:24PM
  • jypcy
    jypcy
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    jypcy wrote: »
    @LittlePinkDot dark cloak heal is good for any situation you need a chunk of healing quickly. I haven’t touched rally in years so not sure what tooltip values on that look like, but it could potentially be a bigger heal on recast than dark cloak. With a 40k health tank you get about a 4K heal every second with dark cloak. For my stamblade with about 40k stamina I think resolving vigor was ticking for 2.5-3k every second. I’m guessing your build would fall somewhere in between there, but if you’re just using each for emergency heals, vigor becomes a better hot as soon as it ticks for more than 10% if your health each tick, otherwise dark cloak is better, and rally still probably offers the best single tick heal on expiration/recast.
    Snb with medium armor is fine for a pve tank in normal dungeons and many vet dungeons as well, you just need to know which hits to dodge instead of block due to having lower resists.
    Defile isn’t a useful debuff for pve, so I wouldn’t recommend reverberating bash for that purpose.

    So you actually put attribute points into health?
    I dont have enough epic quality items yet or a monster helm set to know what stats are going to look like when shes actually finished. But right now I have 16k health. Its hard to imagine where Im going to get more health from except from changing enchants on armour from stam to health. But I would fall below 30k stam if I did that.....
    Rally is good but I didnt want to be forced to use 2H. Theres something wrong when quite literally every stam character in pvp uses 2H. Trying to go against the grain. Was thinking either mighty Chudan or Bloodspawn to increase resistances.

    If you want to tank in pve, then yes, you’ll probably want more than 16k health, whether that’s from attribute points, enchants, passives, or set bonuses (possibly a combination of all). Especially if you’re just starting out learning how to tank, having a higher health pool will help you to live through more attacks/Mechanics and figure out which are more dangerous, which are less so, etc. If you plan on only sticking to normal dungeons then 16k is probably manageable for most if not all of them. You’ll also get more stats as you increase your cp, up to 300 I believe (although I don’t remember by what percentage off the top of my head). And for reference, my tanks usually run around 20k stamina, sometimes 1-2k more depending on the build. They’re not contributing a whole lot of damage most times, but in group content, tanks should prioritize their own survivability over dealing damage. You can definitely have a build that does both, but if you have to sacrifice some damage to survive encounters, then I’d go with the latter.

    I can’t speak from experience whether you can take a pvp-oriented damage build and with only swapping out a few skills be an effective pve tank. I imagine players could, but I’d recommend carrying around another set of armor for pve if you want the same character to do both. I’m able to swap between a full on healer build and a full on tank build just by swapping armor, skills, and food, but I think that’s the closest my experience in character versatility comes.
  • de_naaimachine
    de_naaimachine
    Soul Shriven
    "So how much better NB tanks will be with the next Update ?"

    About 45,4 % better according to my calculations.


    Seriously though, the reasons DK are considered better for tanking in most situations is because of chains and talons and of course stam sustain while in block.
    • Next patch we get silver leash (chains check, no more need for swarm mother, so we also gain the option of using a monster set)
    • Shades give minor maim in aoe and the time stop bubble seems also a strong root (better than caltrops, what I use now if it's really necessary to keep the baddies close)
    • sustain with 3 infused potion acceleration gliphs (on an argonian mind you) will be also very potent, and leeching strikes still gives back some stamina, I'd say the sustain isn't holding the nb back

    Next patch I'll probably run a combination of Tava's, spc and ebon, and I'll use a lot of the new skills, out of my head

    pierce taunt, absorb magic, cloak heal, leech, rage, and warhorn
    heroic, mirage, shades, sap, time stop and barrier

    Can't compare to how Nb's used to tank before sustain rip, but I am excited for all the new tools we get to play with
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