Zaan, Caluurion and Skoria balance issues

BohnT

From SotH till HotR we had a more or less prelevant Proc meta.
With sets like Viper, widowmaker, selene, red mountain, velidreth you could create builds with pathetic stats (35k health, 25k stamina, 2.6k wpn damage etc.) that could inflict massive amounts of burst with a single light attack or one skill that hits like a wet noodle.
All those sets have been nerfed to be Dots or have a delay + easy counterplay by simply walking out of their AoE.

And this is how every proc set should be balanced:
It doesn't cost the wearer additional resources to get the damage so the target shouldn't be forced to use resources or if he doesn't take stupid amounts of damage.

The 3 sets mentioned above however didn't get this treatment.
Skoria is delayed yes, but it is still a fire and forget projectile, it will always hit the target and deal it's damage which can only be reduced by blocking or cloaking, purge.
However only cloak is a viable counter.
You can purge a maximum of 5 debuffs before skoria hits you during a fight you'll have between 10-14 Debuffs on you which makes removing skoria gamble.
Blocking isn't good counterplay aswell, it costs stamina and you still take damage while your enemy didn't spend any resources on that damage.

Change this set to work like Selene. A ground targeted AoE that inflicts it's damage after 1 second.
For everyone crying it will make skoria useless, see how many players still use selene it's far from useless.


Zaan: This abomination of a set should have never made it into the game. A set that provides more damage than a purely damage focused ultimate (soul assault) is wrong as well as the fact that a player that isn't defending himself will die to one set of the enemy.
Also all available counterplay except for cloak is a joke. Through block you still eat massive amounts of damage, Running away 10m isn't an option in a game where anyone with a functioning brain can stay in a 10m radius to an enemy player with ease.

This set has to be nerfed drastically:
Change it to an ground based 7m fire beam that doesn't move at all meaning a player is able to walk out of the thing to stop all damage without giving the wearer the opportunity to easily remove this counterplay with gapclosers or own movement.

Caluurion’s Legacy: Viper was a pretty bad set so why not make a set that has double the tooltip that also applies either a 1k dot, 8% more damage taken, major defile or 15% less damage dealt and a 2.5x longer cooldown that will surely be balanced.
There a small visual cue to show the proc which is even hard to see in 1v1, the projectile itself travels really fast and is hard to see. In any situation were more than 2 people are involved it's almost impossible to see the proc at all or countering it.
You can dodge or block the projectile but due to the difficulties involved with tracking the proc you have to get really lucky to dodge or block in the right moment and if you don't you take between 5-7k burst damage which is more than most people hit with their ultimates.

Change the set to deal dot damage over 6 seconds and completely get rid of the stupid status effects which are applied on top.

Strider__Roshin

I completely agree!

Feanor

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/408478/another-call-to-nerf-zaan#latest

You’re correct. But @Wrobel obviously disagrees, and that’s all that counts unfortunately.

Qbiken

Think this will end in a "agree to disagree" but here we go:

I only agree on Caluurion, simply because you´ll never see the bolt coming from melee range.

Zaan need to get it´s LoS bug fixed. A change I would be ok with would be to reduce the 50% increase/tick to 25% increase/tick, but increase the duration. That way it´s less burst damage and you´ll have more time to react/counter it.

Only time I think I´ve died to a Zaan combo was against Dracane on his/her sorc in IC, but that was together with Soultassault + 2xpets + wall of elements, while being debuffed by elemental drain.....must have been Zaan that was the key factor I guess

I´ve never seen Skoria as an issue to be honest. I´ve even made tests in controlled enviroments (where it´s easier to apply many DoTs) and you need quite amount of DoTs to make Skoria reliable.

Change this set to work like Selene. A ground targeted AoE that inflicts it's damage after 1 second.
For everyone crying it will make skoria useless, see how many players still use selene it's far from useless.

I can´t remember the last time I got hit by Selene´s since the telegraph + delay was added. It made the set quite useless to be honest.

DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER

Zaan doesnt provide more damage than soul assault. Cloak it, purge it or LOS it.

BohnT

DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER wrote: »

Zaan doesnt provide more damage than soul assault. Cloak it, purge it or LOS it.

One class has access to cloak.
Purge isn't a good counter as you take the first 2 hits of Zaan before you can react. Then i'll stun you for the next 2 hits then you will try to purge but you have only a ~33% chance of removing Zaan at this point you've already hit for 10-15k.

Also for the last time Zaan isn't affected by LoS

BohnT

It's crazy that i can even compare a 2 pc set to an 100 cost ultimate and there are many occasions where the 2pc set flat out wins.

The only good thing about Zaan is that the people who really need such training wheels are too bad to complete vSP but this doesn't give the set a free pass as SP isn't even harder nor should the dificulty of getting sets determine if they can be overpowered or not.

Feanor

@Carbonised

The high damage proc sets are a relatively recent addition, they certainly were not in the game when it was still Veteran Ranks instead of CP. Also, telling someone to suck it up because the sets aren’t going away isn’t very helpful. @BohnT certainly isn’t the only thinking that armour shouldn’t do that much damage.

Carbonised

Feanor wrote: »

@Carbonised

The high damage proc sets are a relatively recent addition, they certainly were not in the game when it was still Veteran Ranks instead of CP. Also, telling someone to suck it up because the sets aren’t going away isn’t very helpful. @BohnT certainly isn’t the only thinking that armour shouldn’t do that much damage.

You hardly ever see Zaan used in PvP. OP is trying to make a huge problem out of something that isn't a problem at all. Even very experienced players such as Joy_Division have mentioned how they are unimpressed by Zaan in PvP.

I mentioned several reasons why Zaan isn't a big deal, it's more or less melee ranged, has a low proc chance that basically requires you to spam light attacks 5 times in average to proc it, it doesn't crit, it has to build up over a long time to be a real threat, it's single target and if the beam is broken/cleansed/cloaked, it goes on a very lengthy cooldown. Plus of course the beam can be broken by anyone with a modicum of self-awareness. All this needs to be taken into consideration when calculating the appropriate damage as well.

This is Zaan, Skoria is even less of a problem, the overall damage is easy to deal with in numerous ways, and it only works well on a DoT build that is already plagued by the many, many drawbacks of being DoT based. We already have a Skoria that functions as a delayed proc burst, it's called Nerien'eth. Who last saw one of those being used in PvP?

The "armor doing the damage for them" argument always pops up in these discussions, especially from the die-hard pvp players. The armor is doing no more or no less damage than proc'ing clever alchemist before ganking someone back when that was possible, or proc'ing 300 spell damage on your armor. Some, again pretty much only the pvp hardcore environment, wish to see all proc sets nerfed into the ground and beyond, but I can tell you that a game where the only set bonuses that were available was flat stat enhancers is a very boring game design indeed.

As I have already mentioned, by quoting the OP outright on this, his agenda is not to try and balance anything, he simply rages against proc sets until they are either removed from the game or nerfed into uselessnes. And that isn't very likely to happen any time soon.

Also, while there is a very die-hard vocal minority that keeps harping on this (OP is among those), the times it has been polled or voted on, the overwhelming majority think it's fine as it is.

Maulkin

Carbonised wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Carbonised

The high damage proc sets are a relatively recent addition, they certainly were not in the game when it was still Veteran Ranks instead of CP. Also, telling someone to suck it up because the sets aren’t going away isn’t very helpful. @BohnT certainly isn’t the only thinking that armour shouldn’t do that much damage.

You hardly ever see Zaan used in PvP. ..

Yeah, no. You clearly don't play BGs. It's infested with Zaan, including some stam builds.

Also the argument "the beam can be broken by anyone with a modicum of self-awareness", is a fallacy since it only takes a modicum of self awareness from the attacker to keep it on the target. Just run after them while they frantically try to heal or self-snare themselves by blocking. I'd like to see you try to outrun a magblade that cripples and fears you, a mag DK that slows you with passive snare and petrifies you, a Sorc that streaks after you, any stambuild that will just sprint after you. And I'd like to see you try to block and heal for 5" while getting pummeled.

The only effective counters are Cloak and Purify. And purify less so, since it might not remove it first time. DKs, Wardens and Sorcs generally get rekt by it.

It needs a range decrease to 7m and maybe they can up the proc-chance then.

Strider__Roshin

Carbonised wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Carbonised

The high damage proc sets are a relatively recent addition, they certainly were not in the game when it was still Veteran Ranks instead of CP. Also, telling someone to suck it up because the sets aren’t going away isn’t very helpful. @BohnT certainly isn’t the only thinking that armour shouldn’t do that much damage.

You hardly ever see Zaan used in PvP. OP is trying to make a huge problem out of something that isn't a problem at all. Even very experienced players such as Joy_Division have mentioned how they are unimpressed by Zaan in PvP.

I mentioned several reasons why Zaan isn't a big deal, it's more or less melee ranged, has a low proc chance that basically requires you to spam light attacks 5 times in average to proc it, it doesn't crit, it has to build up over a long time to be a real threat, it's single target and if the beam is broken/cleansed/cloaked, it goes on a very lengthy cooldown. Plus of course the beam can be broken by anyone with a modicum of self-awareness. All this needs to be taken into consideration when calculating the appropriate damage as well.

This is Zaan, Skoria is even less of a problem, the overall damage is easy to deal with in numerous ways, and it only works well on a DoT build that is already plagued by the many, many drawbacks of being DoT based. We already have a Skoria that functions as a delayed proc burst, it's called Nerien'eth. Who last saw one of those being used in PvP?

The "armor doing the damage for them" argument always pops up in these discussions, especially from the die-hard pvp players. The armor is doing no more or no less damage than proc'ing clever alchemist before ganking someone back when that was possible, or proc'ing 300 spell damage on your armor. Some, again pretty much only the pvp hardcore environment, wish to see all proc sets nerfed into the ground and beyond, but I can tell you that a game where the only set bonuses that were available was flat stat enhancers is a very boring game design indeed.

As I have already mentioned, by quoting the OP outright on this, his agenda is not to try and balance anything, he simply rages against proc sets until they are either removed from the game or nerfed into uselessnes. And that isn't very likely to happen any time soon.

Also, while there is a very die-hard vocal minority that keeps harping on this (OP is among those), the times it has been polled or voted on, the overwhelming majority think it's fine as it is.

It's funny how there was so much outrage when Viper's Sting (7800 damage every 6 seconds), and Selene (11.6k damage) were the main damaging proc sets, but when we get even stronger magicka variants it's all of a sudden balanced. Gotta love the hypocrisy. They're all bad, and they're crutches for bad players.

Lucky28

Skoria doesn't need a nerf. Selene's is actually a good example of why it shouldn't be nerfed i haven't been hit by selene's once since they nerfed it i haven't even really seen it that much since they nerfed it. and on my stam character i only ever use selene's in PvE as it's kinda trash in PvP. so, no.

Maulkin

Skoria, first of all, needs a visual indicator around your feet like the Meteor ultie. Just different colour perhaps. They are both undodgeable and I can't see why a 200 cost ultie warns the target that he's about to be hit, but a set that procs every 5" does not. Other proc sets, like Selene or Veli give you a better visual and audio warning.

Currently Skoria only has a sound effect, which is so faint that you can't possibly hear it in heavy combat. You need adequate warning that you're about to get hit by a high damage proc set. You will then at least be able to block or shield it.

I say that as a Skoria user myself on like 3 different builds.

Carbonised

Maulkin wrote: »

Skoria, first of all, needs a visual indicator around your feet like the Meteor ultie. Just different colour perhaps. They are both undodgeable and I can't see why a 200 cost ultie warns the target that he's about to be hit, but a set that procs every 5" does not. Other proc sets, like Selene or Veli give you a better visual and audio warning.

Currently Skoria only has a sound effect, which is so faint that you can't possibly hear it in heavy combat. You need adequate warning that you're about to get hit by a high damage proc set. You will then at least be able to block or shield it.

I say that as a Skoria user myself on like 3 different builds.

You're the only one coming up with reasonable suggestions that are actually balanced, as opposed to the rediculous attempts in the OP.

Meteor needs the warning no least because of the included CC that requires you to block it, Skoria is less critical since it's only damage and nothing else. But sure, a visual indicator is a fine suggestion.

As for Zaan:

Maulkin wrote: »

It needs a range decrease to 7m and maybe they can up the proc-chance then.

Also a very reasonable and balanced suggestion that wouldn't nerf the set beyond uselessnes. A slightly lower radius coupled with a somewhat higher proc chance would be fine.

Minno

Nerf them all so I don't have to worry about grinding for sets! (Except skoria I have that lol)

DeadlyRecluse

Skoria needs a visual queue, at a minimum. I haven't had sound drop for a while, but it's a common enough reoccurence with new patches that "audio queue" doesn't really count as a counterplay enabler. A strong argument could be made for it being dodgeable, too, but I don't know if that's entirely necessary (with a reliable visible queue, popping block for half a second makes it's damage pretty negligible).

Zaan needs to break on LOS, and that fix needs to be in before it's really evaluated. I haven't really had a problem with Zaan in 1v1s, but in large fights, if it procs on you and there's a lot of visual effects (and caltrops everywhere) it is really nasty.

Caluurion is just bad design, imo. Again, really not a problem 1v1, but if somebody behind you, casts force pulse once, and procs Cal, you just ate 1/2 your healthbar with no real recourse. That much burst damage on a proc is just bad, no matter how long the cooldown on it is.

BohnT

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Skoria needs a visual queue, at a minimum. I haven't had sound drop for a while, but it's a common enough reoccurence with new patches that "audio queue" doesn't really count as a counterplay enabler. A strong argument could be made for it being dodgeable, too, but I don't know if that's entirely necessary (with a reliable visible queue, popping block for half a second makes it's damage pretty negligible).

Zaan needs to break on LOS, and that fix needs to be in before it's really evaluated. I haven't really had a problem with Zaan in 1v1s, but in large fights, if it procs on you and there's a lot of visual effects (and caltrops everywhere) it is really nasty.

Caluurion is just bad design, imo. Again, really not a problem 1v1, but if somebody behind you, casts force pulse once, and procs Cal, you just ate 1/2 your healthbar with no real recourse. That much burst damage on a proc is just bad, no matter how long the cooldown on it is.

I made a suggestion a while ago about skoria being dodgeable but you still take the Aoe damage of skoria rather than the much higher ST portion of Skoria.


Zaan is a huge issue depending on class and the enemy you fight.
A magnb with Zaan is one of the most devastating builds in 1v1 when played by a competent player.
Also the biggest issue with Zaan is that a set forces you to give up all you do to defend yourself and if you don't you simply die. We have one encounter where we have an equal issue and that is magsorc vs shieldbreaker or infused torugs oblivion damage.
None of these set should ever exist

ascan7

BohnT wrote: »

Also for the last time Zaan isn't affected by LoS

As i said before, we should first ask for this fix before crying for nerf.

BohnT

ascan7 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Also for the last time Zaan isn't affected by LoS

As i said before, we should first ask for this fix before crying for nerf.

Even with a fixed LoS the damage the set deals is completely over the top, a set that will kill you on its own if you don't/ can't react to it has no place in this game especially with how the counterplay can easily be countered by the user of the set

Maulkin

BohnT wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Skoria needs a visual queue, at a minimum. I haven't had sound drop for a while, but it's a common enough reoccurence with new patches that "audio queue" doesn't really count as a counterplay enabler. A strong argument could be made for it being dodgeable, too, but I don't know if that's entirely necessary (with a reliable visible queue, popping block for half a second makes it's damage pretty negligible).

Zaan needs to break on LOS, and that fix needs to be in before it's really evaluated. I haven't really had a problem with Zaan in 1v1s, but in large fights, if it procs on you and there's a lot of visual effects (and caltrops everywhere) it is really nasty.

Caluurion is just bad design, imo. Again, really not a problem 1v1, but if somebody behind you, casts force pulse once, and procs Cal, you just ate 1/2 your healthbar with no real recourse. That much burst damage on a proc is just bad, no matter how long the cooldown on it is.

I made a suggestion a while ago about skoria being dodgeable but you still take the Aoe damage of skoria rather than the much higher ST portion of Skoria.


Zaan is a huge issue depending on class and the enemy you fight.
A magnb with Zaan is one of the most devastating builds in 1v1 when played by a competent player.
Also the biggest issue with Zaan is that a set forces you to give up all you do to defend yourself and if you don't you simply die. We have one encounter where we have an equal issue and that is magsorc vs shieldbreaker or infused torugs oblivion damage.
None of these set should ever exist

If Skoria remains single target but becomes dodgeable, that kinda heavily benefits stamina medium (i.e. dodge) builds. Everyone else takes full force. So it's only nerfing it for certain builds which in my opinion is not balanced approach.

One of the main reasons that both this set and Zaan are so popular is because they counter dodge-rollers. A hole host of single target skills that were previously undodgeable (Soul Harvest, Whip proc, Cliff racer) recently became dodgeable and it's harder than ever to land burst against medium builds. It's actually one of the reasons for the huge Stamblade rise since last update.

So the only alternative is for it to become AoE instead so that everyone has an equal chance to get out, but it would then need to land a lot quicker and have a larger AoE than Infernal Guardian or Nerien'eth. These two sets proc a lot more often with appropriate builds and have more total damage, but both are so easy to walk out of. Hence hardly used. It'd be a shame if Skoria also went that way.

The same can perhaps be said about Selene, but the thing about Selene is that it's only used by classes that have melee CC. Mainly NBs that can Incap or Fear you or Templars that slow you with jabs. So they still see some use because they have a niche. Otherwise they wouldn't be used either. I've yet to see a Stamden, stamsorc or stamdk with Selene.

Finally bear in mind that currently defensive sets in general are stronger than offensive sets for PvP. It'd be a shame if all offensive proc sets were nerfed to the point that everyone was wearing Troll King, Bloodspawn, Chudan, Pirate Skelly or Earthgore. Zaan against certain classes aside, it's hard to argue that most defensive sets are not stronger than offensive sets. That's not a trend that needs reinforcing imo.

NordSwordnBoard

Zaan will get its nerfing at about same time they nerf the dungeon difficulty at some point in the future.

DDuke

I don't see why people hate procs that much.

I love seeing different proc set effects go off and by that knowing what gear my opponent is wearing - it not only makes my own gear choices matter, but also my opponent's and adds so much more depth to the gameplay.

If everyone winds up wearing "stat sticks", you might as well remove gear entirely & have gameplay be "100% skill based" as you put it (i.e. people spamming same buttons over & over again with their infinite regens & big tooltip heals/shields until someone gets bored).


It was a sad day when Viper, Selene & co were nerfed, we're now stuck with mostly just infinite regen rollerblades & heavy armor tanks in PvP when it comes to stamina builds and I honestly can't say I like that better than the proc meta.

BohnT

Maulkin wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Skoria needs a visual queue, at a minimum. I haven't had sound drop for a while, but it's a common enough reoccurence with new patches that "audio queue" doesn't really count as a counterplay enabler. A strong argument could be made for it being dodgeable, too, but I don't know if that's entirely necessary (with a reliable visible queue, popping block for half a second makes it's damage pretty negligible).

Zaan needs to break on LOS, and that fix needs to be in before it's really evaluated. I haven't really had a problem with Zaan in 1v1s, but in large fights, if it procs on you and there's a lot of visual effects (and caltrops everywhere) it is really nasty.

Caluurion is just bad design, imo. Again, really not a problem 1v1, but if somebody behind you, casts force pulse once, and procs Cal, you just ate 1/2 your healthbar with no real recourse. That much burst damage on a proc is just bad, no matter how long the cooldown on it is.

I made a suggestion a while ago about skoria being dodgeable but you still take the Aoe damage of skoria rather than the much higher ST portion of Skoria.


Zaan is a huge issue depending on class and the enemy you fight.
A magnb with Zaan is one of the most devastating builds in 1v1 when played by a competent player.
Also the biggest issue with Zaan is that a set forces you to give up all you do to defend yourself and if you don't you simply die. We have one encounter where we have an equal issue and that is magsorc vs shieldbreaker or infused torugs oblivion damage.
None of these set should ever exist

If Skoria remains single target but becomes dodgeable, that kinda heavily benefits stamina medium (i.e. dodge) builds. Everyone else takes full force. So it's only nerfing it for certain builds which in my opinion is not balanced approach.

One of the main reasons that both this set and Zaan are so popular is because they counter dodge-rollers. A hole host of single target skills that were previously undodgeable (Soul Harvest, Whip proc, Cliff racer) recently became dodgeable and it's harder than ever to land burst against medium builds. It's actually one of the reasons for the huge Stamblade rise since last update.

So the only alternative is for it to become AoE instead so that everyone has an equal chance to get out, but it would then need to land a lot quicker and have a larger AoE than Infernal Guardian or Nerien'eth. These two sets proc a lot more often with appropriate builds and have more total damage, but both are so easy to walk out of. Hence hardly used. It'd be a shame if Skoria also went that way.

The same can perhaps be said about Selene, but the thing about Selene is that it's only used by classes that have melee CC. Mainly NBs that can Incap or Fear you or Templars that slow you with jabs. So they still see some use because they have a niche. Otherwise they wouldn't be used either.

Finally bear in mind that currently defensive sets in general are stronger than offensive sets for PvP. It'd be a shame if all offensive proc sets were nerfed to the point that everyone was wearing Troll King, Bloodspawn, Chudan, Pirate Skelly and Earthgore. Zaan against certain classes aside, it's hard to argue that most defensive sets are not stronger than offensive sets. That's not a trend that needs reinforcing imo.

That's why i want skoria to work like selene to give everyone easy counterplay. I think people need to get rid of their mindest that slotting gear should give you free damage. There is a really entertaining post in the pvp section which shows that gear alone shouldn't make a pvp player.

Also i have my opinion about stamblades and how to balance them i never hold back with it aswell

Also which classes are using skoria atm?
Magplar, Magdk, magnb and some stamsorcs/ stamplars in non cp.

All these classes have access to snares and CCs (except for magplar but i want that to be changed see my post in the templar discussion)
Magdk will always be close to an enemy and can root and stun even better than nb, magnb has access to Crippling grasp and fear for root, snares and meele CCs aswell as incap.
And i said i want a 1 second delay (faster than selene) not an absurd like nerieneth.

Yes trollking and Earthgore are ridiculous but they won't help a defensive build to have enough damage to kill an offensive build like Zaan or skoria do due to missing scaling
Chudan isn't really good at all, pirate skeleton sucks but it's been a long time since I've seen it the last time.
Bloodspawn is what i consider a good proc. It gives you strong buffs but it doesn't do any work for you, you still have to do all the work killing an enemy, staying alive etc

BohnT

DDuke wrote: »

I don't see why people hate procs that much.

I love seeing different proc set effects go off and by that knowing what gear my opponent is wearing - it not only makes my own gear choices matter, but also my opponent's and adds so much more depth to the gameplay.

If everyone winds up wearing "stat sticks", you might as well remove gear entirely & have gameplay be "100% skill based" as you put it (i.e. people spamming same buttons over & over again with their infinite regens & big tooltip heals/shields until someone gets bored).


It was a sad day when Viper, Selene & co were nerfed, we're now stuck with mostly just infinite regen rollerblades & heavy armor tanks in PvP when it comes to stamina builds and I honestly can't say I like that better than the proc meta.

Because the proc meta combined the damage of a high damage nightblade with "unkillable" builds.
Procs were the worst things we saw in this game. Winning fights with 1 LA was pretty fun for those who didn't want to fight.

Also we are stuck with rollerblades because they aren't forced to stay in combat in order to get their kills. You just dodge and cloak with some attacks in between and then you finish the fight with incapacitating+ will. The total time where you didn't dodge or cloaked is really small yet you can still kill your enemy really fast.

Also it's been a while since i saw the last "unkillable build" the only ones i i see in OW are certain guys running with full defile + trollking and lots of survivability which get their kills against everyone who has no access to shields as their healing gets reduced to the point where spamming low damage skills with LA weaving is enough to negate that healing and eventually wears the enemy down.
That's an issue with other gameplay elements which i also want to see rebalanced

Maulkin

BohnT wrote: »

Yes trollking and Earthgore are ridiculous but they won't help a defensive build to have enough damage to kill an offensive build like Zaan or skoria do due to missing scaling
Chudan isn't really good at all, pirate skeleton sucks but it's been a long time since I've seen it the last time.
Bloodspawn is what i consider a good proc. It gives you strong buffs but it doesn't do any work for you, you still have to do all the work killing an enemy, staying alive etc

I beg to differ. You have a biased view where a proc pushing a kill is bad, but a proc saving a death is not. Both is quite detrimental.

A defensive set =/= defensive build or defensive gameplay. You can build an offensive build with Troll King ( i have a bleed/defile stam-sorc build with it) and the survivability that it gives allows you to maintain insane offence. Which is arguably more valuable to that build than Skoria proc, or I'd be running Skoria.

I've seen Earthgore MagSorcs and Magplars or pirate skelly Magplars (yes they still exist) that pack a lot of punch and play quite aggressively.

I'm not a fan of proc sets in general. But currently defensive ones are as much, if not more, in use as than offensive ones. At least from what I see in the BGs. And if the two main offensive sets get nerfed, it's gonna be all defence sets. So I wouldn't be against adjusting them, but it's gotta be in a way that they are still very useful.

Defilted

I PVP frequently and I am very rarely killed by Skoria or Zaan. I think the OP is overstating the effectiveness of these sets.

Maybe on PC where everyone cheats with PVP add-ons it is an issue, but not on XBOX in my experience. I am sure the add-ons allow for easier timing of abilities because you know when they are going to proc ahead of time.

Please keep these suggested nerfs to PC only.

Avran_Sylt

Caluurion:

Increase projectile speed, but increase the time it takes to fire by about 0.5s (This looks mostly at stunning out of stealth with Concealed Weapon. There is literally no time to break-dodge with its current fire time).

Zaan:

Decrease Range to 5m, revert to on Critical Hit with Light Attack. In PvE this set should encourage up close and personal gameplay with ya boi boss. In PvP this set should heavily rely on the player having a stun and CC ready.

If however, the reason for the long range is because of Boss Hitboxes and their world coordinates creating a natural buffer depending on their model size, this set would need to then calculate based on 5m + the creatures hitbox radius.

Essentially change the set to break if the enemy leaves melee range.

Skoria:
While incoming, it should show the red AoE marker around the player. It's up to player experience to recognize that as Skoria.

That's just my two cents though.

Rianai

DDuke wrote: »

I don't see why people hate procs that much.

1. RNG

2. Too strong, little opportunity cost, lack of equally good non-proc alternatives for many builds, especially in no CP PvP.

3. Lack of stat scaling, which allows more investment into sustain/survivability while retaining killing potential. Infinite sustain builds and heavy armor tanks aren't a result of proc nerfs. Those builds benefit from proc sets the most.

(Only referring to procs that proc dmg by themself, not to "stat procs" such as 7th or Acuity, those type of procs are fine imo).

Derra

BohnT wrote: »

the projectile itself travels really fast

Not that i disagree generally with this topic - but caluurions projectile is literally the slowest moving projectile in the entire game.
It´s snailspeed.
Also dodging any time during the projectiles traveltime will make the projectile miss - even if that dodge happened when the projectile fired and the thing hits you 5s later because it´s that slow.

The issue is that it does spawn ~5m infront of the caster which makes it impossible to evade for melee.

DDuke

BohnT wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I don't see why people hate procs that much.

I love seeing different proc set effects go off and by that knowing what gear my opponent is wearing - it not only makes my own gear choices matter, but also my opponent's and adds so much more depth to the gameplay.

If everyone winds up wearing "stat sticks", you might as well remove gear entirely & have gameplay be "100% skill based" as you put it (i.e. people spamming same buttons over & over again with their infinite regens & big tooltip heals/shields until someone gets bored).


It was a sad day when Viper, Selene & co were nerfed, we're now stuck with mostly just infinite regen rollerblades & heavy armor tanks in PvP when it comes to stamina builds and I honestly can't say I like that better than the proc meta.

Because the proc meta combined the damage of a high damage nightblade with "unkillable" builds.
Procs were the worst things we saw in this game. Winning fights with 1 LA was pretty fun for those who didn't want to fight.

What do you mean by combined high damage & "unkillable" builds? Most of the real proc builds were extremely squishy (e.g. Sheer Venom+Poisonous Serpent+Selene or Viper+Eternal Hunt+Selene etc etc) medium armor builds with low heal tooltips & low sustain.

Yes, there were also builds combining broken heavy armor tank sets like Legion, Fury etc with those proc sets.

Heavy armor sets which are still today (even after nerfs to heavy armor and some nerfs to these sets themselves) used by majority of non-NB stamina builds (and even NBs in duels).

So I guess it wasn't really proc sets that were the main issue.

BohnT wrote: »

Also we are stuck with rollerblades because they aren't forced to stay in combat in order to get their kills. You just dodge and cloak with some attacks in between and then you finish the fight with incapacitating+ will. The total time where you didn't dodge or cloaked is really small yet you can still kill your enemy really fast.

Also it's been a while since i saw the last "unkillable build" the only ones i i see in OW are certain guys running with full defile + trollking and lots of survivability which get their kills against everyone who has no access to shields as their healing gets reduced to the point where spamming low damage skills with LA weaving is enough to negate that healing and eventually wears the enemy down.
That's an issue with other gameplay elements which i also want to see rebalanced

Well, you see them a lot in duels.

If even my light armor destro/resto mDK with zero tank sets can be close to unkillable, it doesn't take much to achieve that status.

Just look for any duel that takes over 5 minutes, those are builds that will never run out of resources and will never die if they play defensive & take no risks. And that is boring.

NyassaV

Zaan's needs a lower cooldown and lower damage so that it isn't so bursty yet remains viable in PvE

Caluurion's is telegraphed AF soooooooooo... Yeah, that's on you