Leviathan better than Mechanical Accuity imo, why is MA considered BiS? Tested

Bigevilpeter

I mean it gives 5 secs of 100% crit chance and 13 secs of nothing, not to mention you won't be able to adjust it perfectly with warhorn. When I saw the builds being made I thought how about having 75% crit chance 100% of the time wouldn't that be better so I made the exact same build but with Leviathan instead and my crit chance is around 72% without the thief stone. Oh and also MA gives you one set bonus that doesn't help your class whether weapon damage or spell damage.

Logically I think that is so much better, but maybe there is something i'm not seeing??

EDIT: I finally did the test and the dummy with both sets with the accuity addon and have reached a conclusions based on my tests.

Both reach almost the same overall dps over 6 mill dummy, however it was very hard to time mu ulti with accuity and will obviously be very hard to time it with another player's warhorn.

In the end it will rely on how lucky you are at getting the accuity at the right time in the right stage of the boss, you can't stay on your back bar till the right time or save you ulti because you will lose big dps.

If you are very lucky then it can outperform Leviathan, otherwise Leviathan will be slightly better in a group situations that relies on team buffs and boss mechanics

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Mechanical acuity adds an average of 27% crit. 27%>~9% crit. Even with the combined 7.6% crit from the 2 and 4 piece, that is still only 16% crit altogether, so 27%>16%

JooPi

MA gives you also max mag/stam and weapon/spell power.
And on an optimal Nightblade build for example you are on your backbar with a vMA staff, use your ulti incap strike (master architect proc) and then switch to the frontbar with MA and get the 100% crit and both damage modifiers (master architect and the 20% from incap).
Makes the spectral bow or the executer hit so hard...

coplannb16_ESO

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Mechanical acuity adds an average of 27% crit. 27%>~9% crit. Even with the combined 7.6% crit from the 2 and 4 piece, that is still only 16% crit altogether, so 27%>16%

only if your base chance to crit is 0%...

Sparr0w

MA essentially gives you 100% crit just less than 30% of the time. Plus you get 1k max resource & 129 weap/spell damage.

Leviathan gives 1k max resource & just less than 20% crit 100% of the time.

Compared in 'perfect conditions' (proccing every 18 seconds) MA gives an extra 129 weapon damage & an extra 10% crit.

Plus MA can be used for Mag & Stam, as well as being a crafted set so no farming

*Someone tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree but on a quick comparison the above seems correct*

Bigevilpeter

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Mechanical acuity adds an average of 27% crit. 27%>~9% crit. Even with the combined 7.6% crit from the 2 and 4 piece, that is still only 16% crit altogether, so 27%>16%

yes for 5 secs so MA 27×5=135
Leviathan 16×18 sec=288

Even if you consider MA to give you 50% more for 5 secs it will still be 50×5=250 so still less than leviathan's 288

Not to mention it will surely be up with warhorn

Bigevilpeter

Sparr0w wrote: »

MA essentially gives you 100% crit just less than 30% of the time. Plus you get 1k max resource & 129 weap/spell damage.

Leviathan gives 1k max resource & just less than 20% crit 100% of the time.

Compared in 'perfect conditions' (proccing every 18 seconds) MA gives an extra 129 weapon damage & an extra 10% crit.

Plus MA can be used for Mag & Stam, as well as being a crafted set so no farming

*Someone tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree but on a quick comparison the above seems correct*

Leviathan gives you 20% + your base crit so should be around 72% without thief full time compared to the 5 sec 100% crit and 13 sec with like 52% crit.

Doctor_Zeuss

I think a large reason of why MA is great is that it can be front barred and therefore the huge burst you get happens when you’re ready for it.

Get all your buffs and dots running, switch to MA bar, apply extra debuffs/dots while MA is about to proc, MA procs, use your spammable with all the effects already going. 100% Crit chance for 5 seconds in the peakdamage part of your rotation is what makes it amazing.

Oh, I forgot. If you use this set you don’t have to build for Crit Chance at all... leaving all those potential stat boosts open for max stats, weapon/spell damage, etc.

Bigevilpeter

Doctor_Zeuss wrote: »

Oh, I forgot. If you use this set you don’t have to build for Crit Chance at all... leaving all those potential stat boosts open for max stats, weapon/spell damage, etc.

Actually you really do cause you will have 13 out of 18 secs without the proc so you will deal very low damage 13/18= 72% of the time.

If the buff is for like 10 secs out of 18 then this would be a pretty epic set with aprox 50% uptime

casparian

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Doctor_Zeuss wrote: »

Oh, I forgot. If you use this set you don’t have to build for Crit Chance at all... leaving all those potential stat boosts open for max stats, weapon/spell damage, etc.

Actually you really do cause you will have 13 out of 18 secs without the proc so you will deal very low damage 13/18= 72% of the time.

If the buff is for like 10 secs out of 18 then this would be a pretty epic set with aprox 50% uptime

It's not as though you won't be critting while MA is on cooldown. It's virtually impossible to end to end up with less than 40% crit on an endgame build anyway. Between your armor passives and Major Savagery/Prophecy, you'll be doing fine until MA comes back up again.

Sparr0w

Guess if you average it out over 18 seconds L = 72% crit, MA = 65/6% crit based on initial 52%. The lower your initial crit tho the better MA performs given the extra Weap damage (I'm guessing?) e.g. 40% || L = 60%, MA = 57%

Sixty5

Basically the reason Mechanical acuity is good is because it lets you not have to invest so heavily in crit.

You can run an axe and a sword instead of two daggers, and gain an extra single target dot, alongside bonus damage on everything.

Furthermore the set can be combo'd with buffs such as Major Slayer, or timed with Ballista to give massive bursts of damage.


Mechanical Acuity ends up being a multiplicative set in terms of its scaling. It's going to give you better results the higher your DPS is.

Bigevilpeter

Sparr0w wrote: »

Guess if you average it out over 18 seconds L = 72% crit, MA = 65/6% crit based on initial 52%. The lower your initial crit tho the better MA performs given the extra Weap damage (I'm guessing?) e.g. 40% || L = 60%, MA = 57%

Its just 124 extra weapon damage it won't nearly make up for the 13 sec of 52% crit

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

coplannb16_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Mechanical acuity adds an average of 27% crit. 27%>~9% crit. Even with the combined 7.6% crit from the 2 and 4 piece, that is still only 16% crit altogether, so 27%>16%

only if your base chance to crit is 0%...

That is not how that works. 5 seconds of the time you will crit 100% of the time. The rest of the time you still have your base crit, which is around 60% on most stam builds. You take 18/5 and get 27%. Then you add that to the base (60% on average). Or (18/5)+.6. which is still more damage then Leviathan.

Bigevilpeter

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

coplannb16_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Mechanical acuity adds an average of 27% crit. 27%>~9% crit. Even with the combined 7.6% crit from the 2 and 4 piece, that is still only 16% crit altogether, so 27%>16%

only if your base chance to crit is 0%...

That is not how that works. 5 seconds of the time you will crit 100% of the time. The rest of the time you still have your base crit, which is around 60% on most stam builds. You take 18/5 and get 27%. Then you add that to the base (60% on average). Or (18/5)+.6. which is still more damage then Leviathan.

if base is 60% crit means leviathan will give you 80%crit chance full time so its still pretty amazing and will always be up with warhorn

Solinur

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

coplannb16_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Mechanical acuity adds an average of 27% crit. 27%>~9% crit. Even with the combined 7.6% crit from the 2 and 4 piece, that is still only 16% crit altogether, so 27%>16%

only if your base chance to crit is 0%...

That is not how that works. 5 seconds of the time you will crit 100% of the time. The rest of the time you still have your base crit, which is around 60% on most stam builds. You take 18/5 and get 27%. Then you add that to the base (60% on average). Or (18/5)+.6. which is still more damage then Leviathan.

You are wrong. MA gives (100% - base crit) * 5/18. If your base crit is 60% then what you get is 11.1% crit (A total of 71.1% on average). If you want it more elaborate use combat metrics which actually measures your effective crit, weighted by the damage you do with it (So if you mange to do some burst during MA procs, it will be a little higher than the flat calculation)

Ajaxduo

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

I mean it gives 5 secs of 100% crit chance and 13 secs of nothing, not to mention you won't be able to adjust it perfectly with warhorn. When I saw the builds being made I thought how about having 75% crit chance 100% of the time wouldn't that be better so I made the exact same build but with Leviathan instead and my crit chance is around 72% without the thief stone. Oh and also MA gives you one set bonus that doesn't help your class whether weapon damage or spell damage.

Logically I think that is so much better, but maybe there is something i'm not seeing??

It isn't go run tests and you will see the difference, in MA's favor. As people have already noted, it allows greater control over burst, which lots of fights favor. Also it's guaranteed crit whereas whatever your % is with Leviathan is still only a chance. In addition this allows it stack better with Warhorn, Major Slayer, etc.

iirc stacking crit doesn't scale nearly as well, whereas I believe MA is different? It's a fixed chance. Plus you get other bonuses.

However there is no reason not to run Leviathan, or whatever set combination you wish. Leviathan mathematically speaking is only better if you cannot control the proc effectively and maintain consistent DoT uptime without clipping.

ScottishTornado85

Would it be unreasonable to ask someone to do a few parses with each to see which fairs better in raid conditions?

Dealing with the mathematical side of things is all fine and well but the proof is surely in the action.

kylewwefan

I’m not a big fan of the Crit sets and stuff, but Accuity is actually pretty good on my Stam DK. I haven’t beat on the dummy in a while, but it reached 25k with a craptastic rotation and green trash pots.

Someone told me to make double axes would be better. So, I’m happy to do that instead of double dagger everyone.

I find when you’re actually playing, a proc every 18 seconds does come right when you need it. And that guaranteed Crit is substantial on ultimate and a bunch of dots ticking.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

Mechanical Acuity isn't for everyone. Basically you have to really watch for the proc and then in the next 5 seconds maximize DPS. Some will craft it, try it and go 'Huh?" and wonder what they just wasted all those materials on. Others will use it and go "Wow!". I've got M.A. on one of my characters and when I time everything correctly it does well. When I don't, not so good.

I think many are better off running Julianos and another 5 piece set for Mag toons than using M.A. and Julianos (or fill in the blank here with your Set choice).

There is an Addon called "Acuity" that helps to maximize it's use if you choose to go with it. All in all it's just another set to play with and hone your skills with.

Bigevilpeter

Ajaxduo wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

I mean it gives 5 secs of 100% crit chance and 13 secs of nothing, not to mention you won't be able to adjust it perfectly with warhorn. When I saw the builds being made I thought how about having 75% crit chance 100% of the time wouldn't that be better so I made the exact same build but with Leviathan instead and my crit chance is around 72% without the thief stone. Oh and also MA gives you one set bonus that doesn't help your class whether weapon damage or spell damage.

Logically I think that is so much better, but maybe there is something i'm not seeing??

It isn't go run tests and you will see the difference, in MA's favor. As people have already noted, it allows greater control over burst, which lots of fights favor. Also it's guaranteed crit whereas whatever your % is with Leviathan is still only a chance. In addition this allows it stack better with Warhorn, Major Slayer, etc.

iirc stacking crit doesn't scale nearly as well, whereas I believe MA is different? It's a fixed chance. Plus you get other bonuses.

However there is no reason not to run Leviathan, or whatever set combination you wish. Leviathan mathematically speaking is only better if you cannot control the proc effectively and maintain consistent DoT uptime without clipping.

The problem is you are never guarateed to activate it with warhorn except in the beginning of each fight, also there are problems like knock back/stuns or even lack of recources or mechanics you need to avoid which can make MA very situational, on dummy you can easily see its full potential, but few bosses act like the dummies

Solinur

Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »

Mechanical Acuity isn't for everyone. Basically you have to really watch for the proc and then in the next 5 seconds maximize DPS. Some will craft it, try it and go 'Huh?" and wonder what they just wasted all those materials on. Others will use it and go "Wow!". I've got M.A. on one of my characters and when I time everything correctly it does well. When I don't, not so good.

I think many are better off running Julianos and another 5 piece set for Mag toons than using M.A. and Julianos (or fill in the blank here with your Set choice).

There is an Addon called "Acuity" that helps to maximize it's use if you choose to go with it. All in all it's just another set to play with and hone your skills with.

On my magplar its actually a flat dps increase over julianos even without any bursting. Just estimating the turnover is somewhere around 55% base crit. (The lower the base crit, the higher the gain of MA)
In with group support, in raids, it should even do better than julianos.

Mettaricana

Sixty5 wrote: »

Basically the reason Mechanical acuity is good is because it lets you not have to invest so heavily in crit.

You can run an axe and a sword instead of two daggers, and gain an extra single target dot, alongside bonus damage on everything.

Furthermore the set can be combo'd with buffs such as Major Slayer, or timed with Ballista to give massive bursts of damage.


Mechanical Acuity ends up being a multiplicative set in terms of its scaling. It's going to give you better results the higher your DPS is.

Should my stam sorc dw swords for the dmg even without daggers using MA i have 49% crit

Amdar_Godkiller

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

coplannb16_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Mechanical acuity adds an average of 27% crit. 27%>~9% crit. Even with the combined 7.6% crit from the 2 and 4 piece, that is still only 16% crit altogether, so 27%>16%

only if your base chance to crit is 0%...

That is not how that works. 5 seconds of the time you will crit 100% of the time. The rest of the time you still have your base crit, which is around 60% on most stam builds. You take 18/5 and get 27%. Then you add that to the base (60% on average). Or (18/5)+.6. which is still more damage then Leviathan.

The MA formula is actually

(100 - [Your crit chance]) x .2777 + [your crit chance]

So if you are at 52% crit chance, then you're getting


(100 - 52) x .27777 + 52 = 48 x .27777 + 52 = 13.3296 + 52 = 65.3296% effective crit rate

And the 5 piece would be adding 13. 33% crit chance, which is more than leviathan's 8.785% 5 piece. Since Leviathan does give you one more stam-centric 2-4 pc bonus, we can then calculate if this is on average better or worse than what we'd get with MA by subtracting the Leviathan 5 piece bonus from our MA 5 piece effective crit chance rate increase.


13.33 - 8.785 = 4.544% more crit chance with MA 5 piece

Then take that number and subtract the 3.8% crit chance you get from Leviathan's 4 piece bonus and if the result is positive, then acuity wins. If it's negative, then on average, Leviathan will be better.



4.544 - 3.803 = .741% better than Leviathan


So at 52% crit chance, you're just slightly better off on average with acuity. At 53% they are effectively even.


Your effective crit chance with Acuity however can be increased with good timing and by tightening up your rotation to line up your ultimate's and big hits with the acuity proc. This is more difficult to calculate, though. Suffice it to say, at about 55% crit chance and up, Leviathan will almost always win out.


TLDR: Acuity doesn't add 27% crit chance; it increases crit chance by 27.7% of your crit chance subtracted from 100% (or essentially by 27.7% of your "non-crit chance").

Ectheliontnacil

To all those saying MA gives 30% on average. You're making one big mistake. Since average crit values of most builds are already over 50%, the MA proc will not increase your crit chance by 100% but by less than 50%. In reality the crit chance you gain from MA has an avg of less than 15% I think.

What makes MA powerful is the fact that you can onebar it and that you can time your heavy burst with an MA proc.

Kuramas9tails

I tried to understand to the math stuff and I am honestly lost.

Might need another coffee.

Mister_DMC

You're not using the set correctly. The point is to guarantee all your Crits. So for that Stamblade you're talking about the idea is to drop all your bow dots, smash an incap, proc war machine for even more damage swap to front bar and watch all your glorious, empowered, major slayer infused damage tick away. Here's the kicker, Mechanical acuity is only better on a skilled player that can time their ults with it. On the average player it is worse than most other setups.

CultOfMMO

not sure if you're trying to convince yourself or everyone else on the forum.

either way you'd be a lot more productive if you just do a few parses yourself on 6 mil dummies

the sets might be close only if you have no clue how to manage acuity proc timing, and once you do leviathan aint remotely close

Bladerunner1

The best results with Acuity will always happen against static boss fights without any mechanics to worry about and target dummies. But I still like the set for the RNG boss mechanic aspect, it's like an extra minigame where you attempt to line up the thickest layer of DPS you can manage in the 5 seconds. You're either going to win some or lose some.

Solinur

CultOfMMO wrote: »

not sure if you're trying to convince yourself or everyone else on the forum.

either way you'd be a lot more productive if you just do a few parses yourself on 6 mil dummies

the sets might be close only if you have no clue how to manage acuity proc timing, and once you do leviathan aint remotely close

The only thing you can do in the event of an acuity proc is try to stop things you do for sustain and use your spammable, and your ultimate of course. But the main DPS always comes from dots, and there is not much you can do to improve them.
In the end you can always see the effect from a Cmobat Metrics parse, as the average value is weighted by the damage of the crits you do. (The more damage your crits do during acuity vs. when acuity is not up the higher the average crit shown)

But I doubt you can increase dps by more than 25%.

Apache_Kid

In my opinion... it's a dummy hero set.

It's not good in long fights or fights with a lot of mechanics. I know a lot of people in my trials guild are using it and I know that people are not timing their procs to maximize the effects of the set. It gives you great numbers on a target that isn't moving but on bosses who move, go invulnerable, or make you stop doing DPS to do mechanics, it can actually be detrimental. People see what it hits on a dummy and think that it is doing the same in every boss fight which it isn't.