Nightblade Tanking - Hopefully it can be a thing.

leendertp1

Hi all,

Just some quick background. I would consider myself a semi-casual player. I have finished most vet HM trials but I don't really have enough time to raid consistently so instead I enjoy doing the harder (DLC) dungeons. I have tanked all vet HM dungeons with 3DD as a Warden, Templar, DK and Nightblade. My argonian nightblade is the one of my most recent max level characters. I have been using it to tank a lot recently. As a benchmark I will use being able to tank vet HM DLC dungeons with similar 'ease' with 3 DD wearing 2 support sets. Something I cannot do on live with a nightblade but can do with DK and Warden.

Currently on my nightblade tank I use a build very similar to that of Gilliam's the Bloodletter. 5pc Bahraha's Curse, 5pc Torug (Tava is fine too), 2pc Swarm Mother in Trash and 2pc Malubeth if whatever it is hits hard.

There are a few things that the nightblade lacks when it comes to tanking.
1. In trash you couldn't wear a monster helm because you needed Swarm Mother, this is of course potentially fixed now with silver leash.
2. As a nightblade tank you definitely struggle a bit with 'oh s**t' moments. Wardens have their tree ult and lots of heals, DK's have corrosive armour or just throwing any ult, even templars have great heals, ritual and even a small but not useless shield. On the nightblade I've gotten by with back bar resto ult and bolstering darkness. Niether is a great solution because they undermine the key benefit of a nightblade tank which is front bar soul harvest with tons of warhorns. The idea of having a burst heal is very appealing, albeit that it is still a hot.
3. Resource management. I dont actually think this is terrible, probably because I am playing an argonian, but when you are out, you are out and there is no recourse. If you have 3DD on the last boss of vBF HM and you run out of stam and you don't have a pot up, you die most probably.

The nightblade tanking style is very different, and to me more fun than the other tanks because it is very active. So 2 points regarding this, an HP based heal I think has a drawback in that a nightblade tank should be stacking max magicka and recoveries to spam abilities not just be a meat shield that holds block. At first glance an HP based heal definitely benefits the second playstyle more than the first. Maybe a more coagulated blood type heal would be better. Secondly, resources, there are small changes that can be made to something like leeching strikes, with zero net impact to DD's or in PVP that could massively benefit tanks. If the resources returned were halved (or the right maths here to make it neutral for Stam DD), but procc'ed by direct damage the gross resource yield for DD's could be the same while tanks could benefit from stam recovery behind block from spamming funnel health or sap essence. You could take this further by making it per target hit with direct damage, helping even more with stam recovery for nightblade tanks when tanking may adds. This is also a swap magicka for stamina trade in a way like igneous shield that can happen behind block. Igneous shields the group, sap essence heals it.

Once I get on PTS a bit later today I will make a nightblade tank or use mine if it is there. The goal is to tank the vet HM DLC dungeons with 3DD and 2 support sets. A build like Tava/Dragon/Torug + Jorvuld/Mending/SPC somehow makes sense to me. I wrote this so I can give feedback on what works and what doesn't and hopefully we can get to a really useful nightblade tanking build for the next patch that will be considered viable in more groups.


If you have any suggestions or comments please let me know.

Strider__Roshin

NB tanking could be a thing, but the minor protection from Dark Cloak needs to increase in duration, and we lack group utility. We have good Survivability, silver leash, and decent resource management now. However when asked why use a NB tank over a DK I couldn't give a good reason.

JerryAlder

Maleficent offering is interesting for tanks on pts. But again is some healing better than engulfing.

Potion cooldown shenanigans is also cool with infused. Sad we can't test it now as it's bugged as hell. Might give insentive as nb have good ulti gen.

Mystrius_Archaion

Actually, my nightblade ultimate of choice for survivability is actually Soul Siphon. It's a nice monster heal when I really need it, and helps the group(even more so with the changes in pts).
It gives you major vitality while healing instantly and over time. I've tanked "The Imperfect" with one dps helping to down hime and his adds in Clockwork City. I could practically solo it, but it's difficult.

I've also run with my friend on his nightblade duoing normal mode dungeons up to DLC ones even. It's been interesting. Sometimes I have to manage boss aggro and resurrect him. Yes, I can stay alive mostly with refreshing path and swallow soul and help from that cp that reduces damage received by 15% while resurrecting and heavy armor of course. I use Whitestrake's Retribution with prismatic glyphs and different secondary world drops sets from time to time.
(Edit: I even ended up soloing Ash Titan in City of Ash when my friend got taken out early just by running around in a big circle using Swallow Soul to keep up heals and light attacking with Dark Shades at the boss, mostly because of the whirling air elementals. That sucked because I was sweating way too much. lol)

FYI, I always forget to use food. I don't have a lot of expensive materials to craft everything so I often don't. I also don't use potions as they are too short a duration and easy to forget for me while having that annoying cooldown.
So, the fact that I can do this well is pretty good.

I think nightblades can tank well, mostly because I'm not even close to the best and I'm still good.

MacCait

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Actually, my nightblade ultimate of choice for survivability is actually Soul Siphon. It's a nice monster heal when I really need it, and helps the group(even more so with the changes in pts).
It gives you major vitality while healing instantly and over time. I've tanked "The Imperfect" with one dps helping to down hime and his adds in Clockwork City. I could practically solo it, but it's difficult.

I've also run with my friend on his nightblade duoing normal mode dungeons up to DLC ones even. It's been interesting. Sometimes I have to manage boss aggro and resurrect him. Yes, I can stay alive mostly with refreshing path and swallow soul and help from that cp that reduces damage received by 15% while resurrecting and heavy armor of course. I use Whitestrake's Retribution with prismatic glyphs and different secondary world drops sets from time to time.
(Edit: I even ended up soloing Ash Titan in City of Ash when my friend got taken out early just by running around in a big circle using Swallow Soul to keep up heals and light attacking with Dark Shades at the boss, mostly because of the whirling air elementals. That sucked because I was sweating way too much. lol)

FYI, I always forget to use food. I don't have a lot of expensive materials to craft everything so I often don't. I also don't use potions as they are too short a duration and easy to forget for me while having that annoying cooldown.
So, the fact that I can do this well is pretty good.

I think nightblades can tank well, mostly because I'm not even close to the best and I'm still good.

The NB can easily tank normal dungeons, even most veteran dungeons. I think what players are talking about here is hardmode stuff, like end content trials. The DK is the only tank that really works as a main tank in the hard end game content. That is a shame as it forces every tank to roll a DK for that content. I personally dislike the DK tanking though I have one for trials... I find DK boring and too easy. So it would be great to see some changes to NB tanking that could at least make it viable as a tank for hard mode end game content.

Silver_Strider

As someone that has tanked before the Morrowind Changes on NB all HM content up to that point, I will say that the change of Dark Cloak into a burst heal is a great thing. Yes, the Minor Protection could be longer but you're using Dark Cloak for a Heal and the Minor Protection helps to ensure that you get healed, unlike Warden that gets Minor Protection solely for using their defense buff but they'd also need to use Arctic Blast for a weaker Self Heal with a much longer duration. I see this as a balancing act between Warden and NBs, Wardens get a weaker Tank based Heal that takes a good 10 seconds before it reaches a similar, albeit slighter weaker healing amount to NB but Wardens get a longer Minor Protection buff to make up for the long self heal duration.

Daus wrote: »

NB tanking could be a thing, but the minor protection from Dark Cloak needs to increase in duration, and we lack group utility. We have good Survivability, silver leash, and decent resource management now. However when asked why use a NB tank over a DK I couldn't give a good reason.

I don't even view it that DK is the best tank because it has the better toolkit for Tanking but because it provides Engulfing Flame and Igneous Shield for the group. Until the day come that NBs can give 6 players Major Evasion via Blur + Reaper's Mark make it so that the enemy takes more crit damage, you cannot compare DK tanks to a NB tanks. The only thing we currently have is faster Ultimate regen and maybe better offhealing capabilities but those are very minor things.

leendertp1

The dream here is to try and figure out what small tweaks would make it a bit easier to tank as well as a DK or warden.

Small example I forgot; Chains can be used as a ranged stun, this is super helpful like vROM HM last boss to stun stoneshapers. When I tank this on my nightblade I use Lightning Staff on my back bar. It serves no other purpose because I am getting off balance from tactician passive. So its just making me a bit squishier, so it the Frost staff destructive reach was a stun instead of an immobilize, the nightblade tank would be slightly more viable and slightly less far behind the DK.

Mystrius_Archaion

Silver_Strider wrote: »

As someone that has tanked before the Morrowind Changes on NB all HM content up to that point, I will say that the change of Dark Cloak into a burst heal is a great thing. Yes, the Minor Protection could be longer but you're using Dark Cloak for a Heal and the Minor Protection helps to ensure that you get healed, unlike Warden that gets Minor Protection solely for using their defense buff but they'd also need to use Arctic Blast for a weaker Self Heal with a much longer duration. I see this as a balancing act between Warden and NBs, Wardens get a weaker Tank based Heal that takes a good 10 seconds before it reaches a similar, albeit slighter weaker healing amount to NB but Wardens get a longer Minor Protection buff to make up for the long self heal duration.

Well if we're comparing them to Wardens....that Lotus Blossom is a real stick-in-the-eye. It heals one value for light attacks and a higher value for heavy attacks while Nightblades get the same heal once per light or heavy attack. That's just not fair or right. That completely encourages only light attacking and punishes you for heavy attacking at all.
Siphoning Strikes/Attacks needs to be adjusted like Lotus Blossom.

NyassaV

I miss sap tanking

leendertp1

Okay, so got home a bit late last night but did manage to make a tank and get smacked around a little bit.

I wore 4 sets primarily, Jorvuld, Mending, Tava and Dragon. Tri-stat glyphs everywhere. Amazing overall stats. About 32-35k health, 20-25k magicka and stamina depending on which food. Loads of block block cost reduction and about 2k magicka regen.

Jorvuld is amazing on a nightblade and all the extra major force uptime you can give is amazing especially with bloodspawn and Tava.

There were 2 very significant changes that I spent some time with.

Dark Cloak, the new heal. I tested this just standing around, and I didnt like it. The animation is silly. I then went into vRom and vFH and pull all mobs to first boss and first boss and managed to stay alive really quite long. Even killing the non-elite mobs. In combat it feel good, and it gives you something to hit when you are in trouble. I went back on live and even wearing Bahraha I couldn't live longer and I missed having the button to press. Intially I also didnt like that it was a HOT, totally changed my mind, nightblades are HOT tanks and it does feel pretty good.

2 potential improvements, I would still like some magicka scaling so if you stack health or are more balanced you get similar sized heals. Also recasting, like Rally I think it would be great if it consumed previous outstanding HOTs if recast, maybe with a penalty of sorts.

Silver leash. I really didn't like it. It's too expensive, 3.5k stam is way too much, especially since tanks, esp non-DK tanks are so stamina constrained. It is also too slow, the delay in shooting the bolt and waiting for the mob to pull takes too long, its nowhere near as responsive as DK chains. I think the only class that may use it is a Warden since Bull Netch makes stamina management a bit easier. Also, the ability does not need to do any damage or do anything other than mini-stun and pull, we can trade all of this for lower cost. I wouldnt use it as it is, I would just keep wearing swarm mother on trash. It just doesnt work giving a expensive stam ability to a non-DK stam constrained tank with no reliable means to recover stam.

crobarXIII

leendertp1 wrote: »

Okay, so got home a bit late last night but did manage to make a tank and get smacked around a little bit.

I wore 4 sets primarily, Jorvuld, Mending, Tava and Dragon. Tri-stat glyphs everywhere. Amazing overall stats. About 32-35k health, 20-25k magicka and stamina depending on which food. Loads of block block cost reduction and about 2k magicka regen.

Jorvuld is amazing on a nightblade and all the extra major force uptime you can give is amazing especially with bloodspawn and Tava.

There were 2 very significant changes that I spent some time with.

Dark Cloak, the new heal. I tested this just standing around, and I didnt like it. The animation is silly. I then went into vRom and vFH and pull all mobs to first boss and first boss and managed to stay alive really quite long. Even killing the non-elite mobs. In combat it feel good, and it gives you something to hit when you are in trouble. I went back on live and even wearing Bahraha I couldn't live longer and I missed having the button to press. Intially I also didnt like that it was a HOT, totally changed my mind, nightblades are HOT tanks and it does feel pretty good.

2 potential improvements, I would still like some magicka scaling so if you stack health or are more balanced you get similar sized heals. Also recasting, like Rally I think it would be great if it consumed previous outstanding HOTs if recast, maybe with a penalty of sorts.

Silver leash. I really didn't like it. It's too expensive, 3.5k stam is way too much, especially since tanks, esp non-DK tanks are so stamina constrained. It is also too slow, the delay in shooting the bolt and waiting for the mob to pull takes too long, its nowhere near as responsive as DK chains. I think the only class that may use it is a Warden since Bull Netch makes stamina management a bit easier. Also, the ability does not need to do any damage or do anything other than mini-stun and pull, we can trade all of this for lower cost. I wouldnt use it as it is, I would just keep wearing swarm mother on trash. It just doesnt work giving a expensive stam ability to a non-DK stam constrained tank with no reliable means to recover stam.

Any chance of trying infused jewelry with potion cooldown enchants, once the infuse trait is fixed? I'm curious how it would work on an argonian nb tank using Jorvuld's & Dragon & maybe even using 2 types of potions during hard content. Also, on live I use volcanic rune for aoe cc, what are your thoughts on timestop compared to volcanic rune?

Rex-Umbra

Strife nerf wreaks tanking as a nb.

ccfeeling

Nb tank needs to switch bar often, unlike dk and warden, it limited their abilities in some situration.

BF hm, vaa axes phase,etc

Well, i wanna summerset comes out quick, cant wait to test.

Weps

Even with these changes, main tank is still DKs realm. But NB tank could possibly be an extremely good off tank.
Can't wait to try it next patch.

leendertp1

Hi

I haven't tried time stop. I'm using a frost staff back bar for blockade, that's my cc. With Say Essence which I keep front bar and spam I find it very easy to take and keep aggro. I have never really felt like I needed more CC. I tried volcanic rune on my Templar a while back. It was fine, nightblade just doesn't need it.

Regarding strife, honestly I am not using it. Doesn't make my bar. I heal with cloak, sap essence and refreshing path. My funnel hits non Crit with 25k Magicka for like 3.5k, honestly it isn't worth the Magicka as a heal now.

Even the new shades don't make my bar, heroic slash is just better especially because of the ultimate generation vibe

leendertp1

Weps wrote: »

Even with these changes, main tank is still DKs realm. But NB tank could possibly be an extremely good off tank.
Can't wait to try it next patch.

Agreed.

Silver_Strider

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

As someone that has tanked before the Morrowind Changes on NB all HM content up to that point, I will say that the change of Dark Cloak into a burst heal is a great thing. Yes, the Minor Protection could be longer but you're using Dark Cloak for a Heal and the Minor Protection helps to ensure that you get healed, unlike Warden that gets Minor Protection solely for using their defense buff but they'd also need to use Arctic Blast for a weaker Self Heal with a much longer duration. I see this as a balancing act between Warden and NBs, Wardens get a weaker Tank based Heal that takes a good 10 seconds before it reaches a similar, albeit slighter weaker healing amount to NB but Wardens get a longer Minor Protection buff to make up for the long self heal duration.

Well if we're comparing them to Wardens....that Lotus Blossom is a real stick-in-the-eye. It heals one value for light attacks and a higher value for heavy attacks while Nightblades get the same heal once per light or heavy attack. That's just not fair or right. That completely encourages only light attacking and punishes you for heavy attacking at all.
Siphoning Strikes/Attacks needs to be adjusted like Lotus Blossom.

I can agree with that, it would at least make it more helpful as Tanks do get few opportunities to Light/Heavy attack than a DPS or Healer do so it would be very beneficial for those few heavy swings to be more rewarding.

Bullitt

As of right now Nightblade tanking can be very easy if you know how to build a character

leendertp1

Bullitt wrote: »

As of right now Nightblade tanking can be very easy if you know how to build a character

Agreed, you can tank anything. But can you do it with no healer wearing 2 sets that support your group? That's what DK and Warden can do.

Strider__Roshin

One issue I'm having with Dark Cloak is that it only crits off of spell crit. I know this isn't that big of a deal, but with mirage slotted I get weapon crit from hemorrhage, and with 30+ into Mighty I'm sitting around ~25% weapon crit, and only 10% spell crit. I put all of my points into Mighty, master of arms, and physical weapon expert in the champion system.

I'm not saying that it should only be weapon crit rather than spell, I'm saying it should scale off of whichever is higher.

Arobain

Night blade tanking is already a thing, you don't need to have a pull to be a damn tank lol

Beardimus

The only reason i'd say yes to NB Tanking is it will lead to Blade nerf's which they need.

the abomination of sorc tank changes are unwanted by me for sure!

leendertp1

Arobain wrote: »

Night blade tanking is already a thing, you don't need to have a pull to be a damn tank lol

For sure, and as I said above, I have tanked everything with a NB, but it isnt as good as etc etc

leendertp1

Beardimus wrote: »

The only reason i'd say yes to NB Tanking is it will lead to Blade nerf's which they need.

the abomination of sorc tank changes are unwanted by me for sure!

Lol, that's the spirit...

GreenSoup2HoT

Would be nice if stamina nightblade tanking was possible in pvp. Without the extra 30% from bolstering darkness its pretty hard.

RavenSworn

Excellent writeup OP, something for me to think about for my own nb tank.

I've commented before in previous nb threads that the best way for a nb to tak is to go via magicka. As of right now, both in live and pts, Stam nb tanking can't do what mag nb can.

With path, dark cloak and sap essence, you can essentially survive a lot of hits. My few recommendations for more changes are:

siphoning strikes / leeching strikes has to have their cost swapped. I would love for it to revert back pre morrowind but I doubt that'll happen.

Blur and Aspect of Terror swapped places. I know a few players wanted blur and veiled strike swap places but I think it makes more sense for these two to swap. Its better in terms of aesthetics and theme, and it will make clear for new players that Blur is a defensive ability.

xaraan

They will definitely be a better spot for average tanking. Looking at it from my PoV for end game raiding, they still don't offer enough... it seems. I'd like to test it more thoroughly but probably won't be able to until live. But concerned about the 3 second HoT their self heal has on whether it will be enough for vHM MoL when Rhakkat does his gattling gun move or when the Warrior in vHM Hel-Ra does his thousand cuts.

In a lot of other content that type of heal will be enough, but I find that I often spam dragon's blood while getting heals on an argonian (with healing in bonuses) and other bonuses for healing and still need that self heal during those times - even while guarded. So in the end, it's fun to mess with my other tanks, but no other class still comes close to replacing my go-to DK for tanking.

RavenSworn

Alot of players here talk about endgame trials, endgame dungeon... What about starting players? What about players progressing to the cp stage? Changes shouldn't be just for endgame, it should be for all aspects of the game.

Same goes with pvp vs pve. ZoS won't change their ways to divide the two, they want you to play both. So the changes have to impact both playstyles positively, be it a nerf or buff.

xaraan

RavenSworn wrote: »

Alot of players here talk about endgame trials, endgame dungeon... What about starting players? What about players progressing to the cp stage? Changes shouldn't be just for endgame, it should be for all aspects of the game.

Same goes with pvp vs pve. ZoS won't change their ways to divide the two, they want you to play both. So the changes have to impact both playstyles positively, be it a nerf or buff.

B/C in the end, the same things that balance something for end game make it balanced in non-end game.

Just b/c something seems powerful enough b/c you aren't fighting the hardest stuff does not mean it's been buffed or created well enough when you compare it to other class abilities that do something similar. The best way to do that is end-game content or the right pvp scenerios.

Not sure who you are addressing, but in no-way does something being better or balanced for end-game not make it stronger and better for easier parts of the game. Now, pvp vs. pve is a different matter and the NB's whining about losing a morph of their invis need to just move on - this change for NBs to do more in the game is needed.

Darcwolf

I made a NB tank just because I was tired of never being able to play my main NB DPS, it works fine, I have about 40k hp, capped on resistances by using mirage and the evade is nice, I used deadly cloak to help mitigate aoe damage, spiked bone shield from undaunted for those oh *** moments. War horn also of course, Bolstering darnkess to damage mitigation for you and your group. I also use Stormfist set, this is great for holding aggro on groups of mobs, teleport strike into the group, activate deadly cloak, then use power extraction, this usually will proc stormfist by then. There a re ton other skills and options you can use, but those are my main go to ones, only thing I wish they would add is a pull skill like dragonknight has.

RavenSworn

xaraan wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Alot of players here talk about endgame trials, endgame dungeon... What about starting players? What about players progressing to the cp stage? Changes shouldn't be just for endgame, it should be for all aspects of the game.

Same goes with pvp vs pve. ZoS won't change their ways to divide the two, they want you to play both. So the changes have to impact both playstyles positively, be it a nerf or buff.

B/C in the end, the same things that balance something for end game make it balanced in non-end game.

Just b/c something seems powerful enough b/c you aren't fighting the hardest stuff does not mean it's been buffed or created well enough when you compare it to other class abilities that do something similar. The best way to do that is end-game content or the right pvp scenerios.

Not sure who you are addressing, but in no-way does something being better or balanced for end-game not make it stronger and better for easier parts of the game. Now, pvp vs. pve is a different matter and the NB's whining about losing a morph of their invis need to just move on - this change for NBs to do more in the game is needed.

It's not that, it's just that some of the ideas here like switching sides for blur and veiled strike would have implications for new players, most notably in the design of the class. I'm not arguing in terms that changing skills for endgame would make it easier for new players, it would be good for the game in the end, for new players to understand their class easily.