Stamina and Magicka affecting damage... Why? (Also some mumbling about classes)

mistformsquirrel

Hello everyone. I'm kind of an infrequent player, but I really do enjoy the game quite a lot... however, over the years of on and off play and multiple, multiple character rerolls, I've finally figured out why ESO doesn't 'click' with me the way it realistically should.

It's the way Magicka and Stamina affect your damage. I know this is kind of core, base-line backed-into-the-game assumption stuff; but the more I play, the more it feels like this is a crippling flaw that should be addressed.

Here's the problem:

ESO gives you a lot of freedom compared to most games in letting you pick your skills. This is great and as it should be - it's a very Elder Scrolls approach to things. Unfortunately, it's very, very easy to make a rather weak build if you assume that Stamina and Magicka are just resources, like they are in most Elder Scrolls games.

For instance - say I want to make a Dragon Knight with a greatsword, a bow, 2 weapon skills, some fire and self sustain on each bar. Thematically this is a pretty good option - it looks phenomenal. ... it plays terribly though; because either your weapon damage is going to be pitiful, your magicka skills will be pitiful, or if you hybridize, both will be barely tolerable. - So you're thinking: "Well just use the Stamina morphs, right?" - Except... the Stamina morphs are all poison. It fundamentally up-ends the fantasy of the character to go from breathing fire to spitting acid.

"Well use a Destruction staff and go Magicka?" - Again, upends the character fantasy. This is a Dragon *Knight* - not a Fire Wizard.

Now, all this by itself might not be A Huge Deal; most games have restrictions on what you can be, why should ESO be any different, right?

Except unlike most games, this game's limitation seems to exist for no reason I can adequately discern. - What balance benefit is achieved by tying weapon and skill damage to the Stamina and Magicka stats? I mean as-is, as far as I can tell the meta revolves around stacking one stat entirely and basically ignoring the other, yes? Which just forces you to pick one or the other; but whatever you pick, that will be at it's peak potential. So... what exactly is the harm if my Fire Breath does full damage as fire, when it definitely will as poison?

Additionally most games that have restrictions at least have classes that are a bit more robust, interesting, and are an invested part of the world - in ESO that's not the case. The classes are just arbitrary blocks of abilities with a loose thematic cohesion, but could easily exist as individual skill lines.

It seems like an unnecessary and arbitrary limitation on character customization that doesn't actually serve a useful mechanical purpose. If we need a stat to increase damage, maybe that could be it's own thing acquired wholly from gear, like most MMOs. I guess my point is: The current set up is clunky and awkward, and unnecessarily so - which is unfortunate because I actually really do like the game, but it feels like part of the foundation wasn't laid down with enough consideration.

It's just something that bugs me immensely; because of all MMOs available today, ESO feels the closest to letting me play whatever I want to play - but with the caveat that if I actually try to play what I want to play it will be vastly inferior, and as far as I can tell, without any reason to be that way.

Micah_Bayer

In elder scrolls games. The more magicka you had, the more dmg your spells did. Same for stamina. Technically anyways because if you didn't have enough, You couldn't cast the spell regardless xD

MalsvirIxen

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

In elder scrolls games. The more magicka you had, the more dmg your spells did. Same for stamina. Technically anyways because if you didn't have enough, You couldn't cast the spell regardless xD

in Skyrim how much Magicka or Stamina you had did not affect spell or weapon damage. The only thing that did affect them were your perks. Stamina and Magicka were nothing more than a resource. I get what the OP is saying because I to feel like I'm not able to fully play the way I want to because of class limitations. I want to be a Sword and Board that can deal just as much DPS as someone duel wielding. I want to feel like a bad-ass knight that utterly destroys anything in his path. However the class system (and I know its for all MMOs) prevents me from doing that because Sword and Board is a tank that has not much damage output. In real life a Tank utterly destroys things in its way.

GeorgeBlack

Because people think that PvE is too hard and cannot be completed without boosted dmg from resources.

Hah.. now we get more dmg from light atks... go figure

vahleboy77

I agree with this much, i feel limited to using meta only because it's the most viable way of being good at the game. I understand weapons are for stamina and staffs and most class skills of for mag but that limits the freedom of being unique. Hybrid builds are cool but useless. It would be awesome if damage was based on gear, weapons and whatever else besides resources. And resources simply being well...resources.

Skander

Becouse magicka would not survive without that. Magicka can't stack spell dmg like stamina can.

vahleboy77

And of course that is well known but there could be a way too if ZOS decided to. The game is way to far along now to make any major changes for sure and these kinds of post are like beating a dead dog but it's true that it would be a fun experience to have more choices in character build and i'm sure it would be widely considered if polled and or debated.

Danksta

Max stam and max mag would be terrible stats to invest in if all they did was increase your stat pool.

Psyonico

I have 2 opposing views on this

1 in Summerset we're getting a new hybrid set, do obviously the devs aren't against the idea of hybrids working, do why shouldn't they work?

On the other hand, if stats didn't scale with max resources, everyone would just run max health making everyone tanky while still dishing out lots of damage.

I'm a firm believer that hybrids should work, and therefore max resources shouldn't impact damage, I just can also see the other side of the coin.

KanedaSyndrome

mistformsquirrel wrote: »

...good stuff...

Couldn't agree more actually. It's a thing I've come to just accept, but I agree with you that this design is inherently flawed. I much prefer a DnD-like/Diablo/Classic RPG stat array based system for doing combat calculations.

Resources should be derived from the stats and gear, not the other way around.

But this is ESO and this is one of those things that are probably holy. I don't expect it to change, and I accept the system in its current form. It would still be ESO if changed I think. Elder Scrolls is about the story, not the combat system as I see it.

KanedaSyndrome

Psyonico wrote: »

I have 2 opposing views on this

1 in Summerset we're getting a new hybrid set, do obviously the devs aren't against the idea of hybrids working, do why shouldn't they work?

On the other hand, if stats didn't scale with max resources, everyone would just run max health making everyone tanky while still dishing out lots of damage.

I'm a firm believer that hybrids should work, and therefore max resources shouldn't impact damage, I just can also see the other side of the coin.

Of course we'd have to revisit how we're handling sustain.

Should I point out the absurdity of heavy attacks regenerating ressources rather than expending them? Heavy attacks should do the following:

• Cost you resources
• Not be telegraphed so visibly
• When blocked, the attacker shouldn't get dazed/stunned
• Open up combo possibilities

Light attacks should be the default combat mode, spells/abilities/heavy attacks should be used at strategic times. For this to work, we'd have to make light attacking much more engaging, kinda like in Black Desert Online, or some other similar game with great combat animations, but perhaps on the more realistic side.
Animation cancelling would also have to go.

LeagueTroll

Lol do you realize how many iron bb gun exist in pvp already? If nothing scale to max mag/stam, ppl will go all max health.

KanedaSyndrome

plop

Khivas_Carrick

KanedaSyndrome wrote: »

Psyonico wrote: »

I have 2 opposing views on this

1 in Summerset we're getting a new hybrid set, do obviously the devs aren't against the idea of hybrids working, do why shouldn't they work?

On the other hand, if stats didn't scale with max resources, everyone would just run max health making everyone tanky while still dishing out lots of damage.

I'm a firm believer that hybrids should work, and therefore max resources shouldn't impact damage, I just can also see the other side of the coin.

Of course we'd have to revisit how we're handling sustain.

Should I point out the absurdity of heavy attacks regenerating ressources rather than expending them? Heavy attacks should do the following:

• Cost you resources
• Not be telegraphed so visibly
• When blocked, the attacker shouldn't get dazed/stunned
• Open up combo possibilities

Light attacks should be the default combat mode, spells/abilities/heavy attacks should be used at strategic times. For this to work, we'd have to make light attacking much more engaging, kinda like in Black Desert Online, or some other similar game with great combat animations, but perhaps on the more realistic side.
Animation cancelling would also have to go.

I'd actually like that very much, and tbh I've always kinda hated the double bar set up this game went with.

Animus-ESO

KanedaSyndrome wrote: »

mistformsquirrel wrote: »

...good stuff...

Couldn't agree more actually. It's a thing I've come to just accept, but I agree with you that this design is inherently flawed. I much prefer a DnD-like/Diablo/Classic RPG stat array based system for doing combat calculations.

Resources should be derived from the stats and gear, not the other way around.

But this is ESO and this is one of those things that are probably holy. I don't expect it to change, and I accept the system in its current form. It would still be ESO if changed I think. Elder Scrolls is about the story, not the combat system as I see it.

I would have quit this game after beta if the combat system wasn't so much fun. I know around 500 people in my PvP guild who feel exactly the same. The story in this game is beyond lack luster.

kind_hero

Is there a way to see how much damage you lose/gain for each resource point?

I put some points in health, to give my char better chances when fighting a lot of mobs together. How much dps do I lose from this?

Elsterchen

Skander wrote: »

Becouse magicka would not survive without that. Magicka can't stack spell dmg like stamina can.

On current live the simple fact that the magica ressource pool can be stacked much higher then the stamina ressource pool should balance the difference in stacking damage. At least that's what the DEVs kept telling us.

Adding to it: with the changes comming in SI -> the ressource pool is going to contribute MORE to LA/HA damage then on current live. Because for SI one major goal was to make all roles viable for endgame content ... and DEVs didn't care or simply forgot about the stamina variants of all roles.

So, while magica users can as soon as SI drops, CHOOSE to LA/HA like any stamina user with equally good results, they also have easier time stacking damage via ressource pool AND a fastly greater variety of abilities to choose from.

Sry so say, but I really don't see your problem. Enjoy Elder staffs online -> Just keep in mind, its not skill: magica is supported by design.

gnarlyvandal

Predefined casses should never have been a thing in ESO. They were never a thing in TES before ESO, it seems like the developers were simply thinking ‘it’s an mmo so let’s define the classes’... NO! This isn’t WoW. All skill lines should be free to choose and I agree with OP that damage should probably not be scaling with max resource stats as it truly does limit the variability in play style.

Anyone ever looked at secret world or archeage? No predefined class, you make your character into what you want it to be and fit yourself into a role through complete customisation choice.

Zenimax really failed themselves and the fans here.. just look at how much of a mess the warden class is. If characters were simply a generic template, that class could have been an extra 3 skill lines that anyone can use as they wish.. but no, instead there’s a warden of nature with very un-natural ice abilities that also sucks (imo) as a magicka user... I just don’t see how they thought this was a good system.

gnarlyvandal

kind_hero wrote: »

Is there a way to see how much damage you lose/gain for each resource point?

I put some points in health, to give my char better chances when fighting a lot of mobs together. How much dps do I lose from this?

I think the scaling of damage from resources is 10.5%, but that’s just what I’ve seen mentioned from other players.

So 1000 magicka = 105 spell damage

lassitershawn

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Because people think that PvE is too hard and cannot be completed without boosted dmg from resources.

Hah.. now we get more dmg from light atks... go figure

This is a mischaracerization of PvE players. Serious PvE players want a serious challenge.

GrumpyDuckling

Linking max stats with damage done and shield strength creates a dividing line that forces players to choose between magicka and stamina damage builds.

I can't play with bow skills (stamina) and use daedric pets like the unstable familiar (magicka) without experiencing a significant DPS loss because of the magicka/stamina divide. This makes the game far less fun than it potentially could be. I hate that I'm hurting my team if I don't strictly follow this forced divide between magicka and stamina.

Sogreth

100% agree.

I love ESO. It's really fun to play. But I feel gimped.

My main character is a Bow/Healer. He is a Templar that uses a Bow and Healing magic. But I can't do it the way I want. My healing is crap, and my damage is laughable. I've been kicked from groups just because I can't pull the DPS that I should.

I can't main heals for this build, and I can't main DPS. Both are too weak. I try to find a healthy balance, but I don't think it's even possible. I've been moving away from Magicka in my build, and just going heavy Stamina. With a *tiny* bit of Magicka, and keeping Breathe of Life on my main bar, just to heal if I really need it. But I'm an Argonian and I can just pop a potion and get more healing from that, then I can from my spells.

Waffennacht

Pre-defined classes forces players into using alts.

Increasing time played...

Increasing crown items purchased

LeHarrt91

Sogreth wrote: »

100% agree.

I love ESO. It's really fun to play. But I feel gimped.

My main character is a Bow/Healer. He is a Templar that uses a Bow and Healing magic. But I can't do it the way I want. My healing is [snip], and my damage is laughable. I've been kicked from groups just because I can't pull the DPS that I should. And I mean kicked from just dungeons!

I can't main heals for this build, and I can't main DPS. Both are too weak. I try to find a healthy balance, but I don't think it's even possible. I've been moving away from Magicka in my build, and just going heavy Stamina. With a *tiny* bit of Magicka, and keeping Breathe of Life on my main bar, just to heal if I really need it. But I'm an Argonian and I can just pop a potion and get more healing from that, then I can from my spells.

Unfortunately thats the way the game is at the moment, Bow scales with Stamina and Weapon Damage, and Templar Heals scale with Magicka and Spell Damage. Your best bet for a Stamina Healer would be a Stamina Warden as they have heals that scale with Stamina and Weapon Damage.

[Edited for quote]

Sogreth

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Sogreth wrote: »

100% agree.

I love ESO. It's really fun to play. But I feel gimped.

My main character is a Bow/Healer. He is a Templar that uses a Bow and Healing magic. But I can't do it the way I want. My healing is [snip], and my damage is laughable. I've been kicked from groups just because I can't pull the DPS that I should. And I mean kicked from just dungeons!

I can't main heals for this build, and I can't main DPS. Both are too weak. I try to find a healthy balance, but I don't think it's even possible. I've been moving away from Magicka in my build, and just going heavy Stamina. With a *tiny* bit of Magicka, and keeping Breathe of Life on my main bar, just to heal if I really need it. But I'm an Argonian and I can just pop a potion and get more healing from that, then I can from my spells.

Unfortunately thats the way the game is at the moment, Bow scales with Stamina and Weapon Damage, and Templar Heals scale with Magicka and Spell Damage. Your best bet for a Stamina Healer would be a Stamina Warden as they have heals that scale with Stamina and Weapon Damage.

That's actually what I started. I made a post about it actually, lol.

I'm having a lot of fun so far.

Raraaku

I think if they expanded the attribute system to include weapon & spell damage as attributes that can be invested in, and moving to a 2/4/5 attribute allocation system would really open things up in terms of hybrid possibilities. As you can balance out a lower resource pool with a higher base damage.

Minno

Waffennacht wrote: »

Pre-defined classes forces players into using alts.

Increasing time played...

Increasing crown items purchased

Which would have been fine if the classes were actually modeled off of the classes from Morrowind/Oblivion/Daggerfall. Imagine 8-10 classes with unique flavors with spell crafting and other in game skillines giving flexibility.

Instead we got temp classes intended to test the game engine which only 2 classes got renamed/worked on prior to release lol.